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Why Portland's Public Toilets Succeeded Where Others Failed (2012)
- laser 8y ago$90k upfront plus $12k /year? Perhaps these public restrooms are better than the alternative, but it seems to me that Germany has successfully solved this issue for far less cost by partnering with local businesses [1]. For just the cost of one of these toilet's maintenance you could have dozens of businesses open up their restrooms to the public. [1] https://www.fastcompany.com/3065278/german-cities-are-solving-the-age-old-public-toilet-problem https://www.fastcompany.com/3065278/german-cities-are-solvin...
- User23 8y agoGermany has the significant advantage of being mostly populated by Germans, who are notorious for their adherence to rules.
- lozenge 8y agoOr, Germany's welfare system and mental health laws mean their citizens are satisfied or at least kept somewhere warm and clean.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- TomMarius 8y ago> who are notorious for their adherence to rules. That is a meme the Prussians have created to look more scary - to all other Germans.
- darkpuma 8y agoCounterpoint: jaywalking is virtually nonexistent in Germany.
- zaarn 8y agoCounteproint: in my town, jaywalking is the norm because there are only 2 traffic lights. I regularly see people jaywalk in the city as well. Usually the reasons for jaywalking are either 1) the road is empty or 2) late for a train/tram/bus. edit: It should also be noted that jaywalking is not illegal in germany IF 1) you're not crossing the road at an intersection with traffic lights for pedestrians AND it is red or 2) you're crossing the road in the shortest and fastest manner without impeding, endangering or otherwise causing trouble in traffic. So if you walked over the road, a police officer could at worst give you a stern talking to. If you crossed a road with a red light for pedestrians, you'd get a 5€ fine.
- mseidl 8y agoI was stopped by a cop in Berlin for jaywalking. He didn't give me a ticket. But there were no cars around either. There is also an unspoken rule for jaywalking, don't do it around kids. I also saw 3 tween girls walking across the street on a green, they were right around half way when the crosswalk light turned red. They all turned around and went back. It was kind of funny. My American friend told me a funny story where he was drinking with German friends, and they walk back at like 3am with no cars in sight and he of course crosses the street and all the Germans were back at other side waiting for it to turn green.
- thomasz 8y agoAs always with these kind of things, you should consider explanations which do not require sweeping assumptions about national mentalities. I'm no sociologist, but I'm pretty sure that differences in policing priorities play a big role here. Being fined or at least reprimanded for jaywalking is very common. On the other hand, speeding tickets are a joke, and therefore the notoriously rule adhering Germans do not give a flying fuck about speed limits.
- User23 8y agoEven the Swabians follow the rules, unless you mean the grammatical ones.
- jorblumesea 8y agoHave you been to Portland? Local restaurants don't want to deal with the street folks there.
- Simulacra 8y agoThe few times that I went to a restroom at a German business, particularly restaurants, there was usually an attendant that took care of the restroom and you had to leave a tip. I could never see American businesses willingly opening their restrooms to the homeless, let alone having a full-time attendant to watch over them.
- Kluny 8y agoI'm not sure when that was, but when I was in Germany in 2017 my experience was that every gas station had a washroom that was available to the public at a cost of about 1 euro. There was no attendant, but a coin-operated gate. The washrooms were large, well lit, perfectly clean, had several stalls and often showers as well. It's a sharp contrast to the free washroom experience in most North American gas stations, which is a single stall that you need to request a key for, usually horrifyingly dirty. I resented paying the euro a bit, but the format made a lot of sense to me.
- petepete 8y agoThe toilets in the station I commute via daily are like this but without taking contactless payment it's of little use to me. I barely-ever carry cash and never coinage.
- Moter8 8y agoI travel quite a bit on the weekends, on the way to my girlfriend, and all toilets that I've seen are nfc-enabled (Baden-Württemberg -- Bayern). Except for Crailsheim. There are Toilets by the Bahn, but are closed at 18:00 or so.
- belorn 8y agoIf you got the pay for it I doubt that it is actually solving the problem of people urinating in the street. The main question seems to be if there is enough business that provide the facility for free to the public.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
- Simulacra 8y agoI think this is an absolutely amazing idea. I was astonished in Europe how many public toilets there were, and yet when I came back to the states there were none. I think these would be amazing right here in Washington DC because we have a large homeless population, that have nowhere to go. This would also cut down on the whole Starbucks bathroom fiasco situation, and might ease tension between businesses and the homeless.
- irrational 8y agoWhat was the Starbucks bathroom fiasco?
- dmckeon 8y agohttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44088033 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44088033
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- senectus1 8y agono water inside... so no one is washing their hands? When your child has a poo explosion you cant do a damned thing to clean up properly. I wonder what the gastro bug pickup rate is like in portland...
- frosted-flakes 8y agoThe very next sentence says there's a cold water spigot outside, which is a totally fine solution.
- senectus1 8y agoYeah, not really. I dunno how many poo-apocalypses you've had to deal with... but they get messy.
- mrep 8y agoI think it is mainly meant for homeless people so they don't just defecate in the street nonstop. I live in Seattle where there is a huge homeless problem and most businesses have codes on the bathrooms to only provide customers the option to use them.
- metildaa 8y agoHmm? I just spent the evening in Ballard (tons of homeless people sleeping on the street! Really surprising, Market Street wasn't like this 3 years ago), yet none of the businesses I visited had locked or door coded bathrooms. Same in Fremont, the coffee shops & restaraunts don't generally restrict access to the bathrooms in any noteworthy way, though some have a sign stating use should be limited to a few minutes. Georgetown, Central District & Madison Park were also pretty similar last I checked, you'd be hard pressed to find bathrooms with codes on them.
- c22 8y agoI've lived in Seattle my whole life and the only bathrooms with codes I can think of off the top of my head are at Uwajimaya and Starbucks. The Thai place across from the restrooms at Uwajimaya has the code prominently displayed on a cardboard sign and we all know the new policy at Starbucks. Oh, the sketchy McDonalds on 3rd makes an employee buzz you in, but the other McDonalds a few blocks away has open restrooms. Dunno where gp is hanging out. Also I have yet to see human excrement in the street, though I hear this is a big problem in SF.
- siruncledrew 8y agoNo pictures of the inside?
- jakobegger 8y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Loo#/media/File%3APortland_Loo_with_Sharps_drop_box_.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Loo#/media/File%3AP...
- mosselman 8y agoLovely. Can’t wait to be able to review it on yelp
- kwhitefoot 8y agoYuck! And no toilet paper?
- mikey_p 8y agoThere usually is toilet paper, but it's on a bar that prevents the rolls from spinning freely, making it hard to use larger amounts.
- siruncledrew 8y agoWell ok then, that makes me re-evaluate their "success".
- simonsays2 8y agoHaha. Illegal activity is now carried out right in the street. Portland is not a success, it is a cautionary tail.
- johnmarcus 8y agoCan someone please sell these to San Francisco? PLEASE?!?!?
- Animats 8y agoThat may happen. San Francisco made a 20 year deal with JCDecaux for the existing public toilets. The 20 years are up and the Board of Supervisors is not going to renew.[1] It's sad. A similar model works fine in Paris. It's way too complicated and expensive, though. I've looked over the mechanism when one was being repaired. It's all Telemechanique industrial control and automation gear. It needs to be more like a washing machine. [1] https://missionlocal.org/2019/02/jcdecaux-toilet-contract-may-be-flushed-as-city-spurns-extension/ https://missionlocal.org/2019/02/jcdecaux-toilet-contract-ma...
- johnmarcus 8y agocould you imagine if San Francisco put 10MM/yr into managing the homeless/drug-laden poop-fiasco? And if they even earned more by expanding the number of toilets? It might actually become a nice city again. I somehow suspect the city fat cats will find a way to make it terrible.
- QuamStiver 8y agoI think it's a matter of discipline. Well it's a nice topic you have. I think public toilets is not for bathing its for emergency reason. The outdoor toilets pittsburgh is successful too and it's very clean.
- kwhitefoot 8y ago> The toilet has the dubious honor of being the city of Portland’s first patent. Why 'dubious'? This attitude is part the problem that public conveniences suffer under. Surely it is glorious that Portland's first patent should be something so patently useful to the people.
- narrator 8y agoSo how do you solve the heroin junky passing out/projectile vomiting/falling asleep/dying/leaving needles around/defecating everywhere but the toilet with the door locked problem? On the streets of San Francisco I have seen several passed out heroin junkies lying flat on their back right there on the sidewalk, needles nearby, perhaps passed out or worse with some sort of projectile body effluent leaking out of them or trailing behind them. This is probably an average day at Starbucks for a non-discriminatory bathroom in a high addict area.
- HeavenBanned 8y agoPublic/homeless welfare programs. Which the city of SF is not willing to fund.
- ndnxhs 8y agoThis is a San Francisco problem. In most of the world such a sight would be very rare.
- derefr 8y agoA Vancouver BC problem, too. Really, it's a problem with any city that has better support for disadvantaged populations (homeless, drug addicts) than the country it exists within—because those populations will flock to it in order to receive that support, and thus put a far larger support burden on city/NGO resources than you'd expect given the population.
- notthemessiah 8y agoI don't know about Canada, but the US is the only place where "Greyhound therapy" is a thing, and no it's not homeless playing with dogs. Basically, cities just ship their homeless/mentally-ill to another city via Greyhound bus lines. Some cities get the short-end of the stick more than others. I discovered it first hand taking a bus from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_therapy
- Fezzik 8y agoI have been out of Portland for 7 months, but are all of these still running? I recall one being installed on the SW riverfront that was almost immediately shuttered, I thought, due to successful vandalism/an inability to keep it functional. It just sat there unusable for ages - I ran by it nearly every day and evening for 5+ years (2013-2018) at was roped off the entire time.
- sircastor 8y agoThat's odd. I'm certain I've used the one you're referring to in the last few years.
- jdietrich 8y agoSee also the Camden Bench, a bench that was painstakingly designed to have literally no other function than being a bench. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench
- mysterypie 8y agoThere's a lesson in Public Relations here. The designers were criticized for their anti-homeless, hostile architecture. If I were the designer, I was thinking to myself as to how I'd respond. My initial thoughts on what I could say: 1. "I was given a set of requirements and this is what meets the requirements." 2. "No comment. Please address your complaints to the city council who commissioned the benches." 3. "You don't want to sit on a urine-soaked bench, do you?" 4. "I'm sorry but I can't solve the homelessness problem." They all sound defensive. What the designers actually said is excellent. It could be a lesson in Public Relations: The designers said that: "Homelessness should never be tolerated in any society and if we start designing in to accommodate homeless then we have totally failed as a society. Close proximity to homelessness unfortunately makes us uncomfortable so perhaps it is good that we feel that and recognise homelessness as a problem rather than design to accommodate it."
- icebraining 8y agoThat's curious, I find that statement so slimy I'm afraid to slip on it. It tries to misdirect the conversation by painting the criticism as "not design to accommodate the homeless", when it actually was "don't design to purposefully exclude the homeless", which their design does at the expense of being worse for non-homeless people too (everyone may need to lie down sometimes). It also indirectly portraits anything done to ameliorate a social ill negatively, which is a shitty thing to do. Fuck me, that statement makes me angry. At least "just doing my job" is honest, now I'm hoping they go bankrupt.
- lobotryas 8y agoI think your thought process is taking you for a ride. The designer’s answer (as self-serving as it may be) says that we should work to fix the root causes of homelessness and not just empower it.
- kbouck 8y agoIn the Netherlands, many of the toilets are pay (€0.50) and regularly cleaned by a full-time attendant. They are generally quite clean, even at train stations. There are also male urinals which literally rise up out of the ground during weekends and festivals. https://youtu.be/qXjPxBPgGV0 https://youtu.be/qXjPxBPgGV0 I think female versions of these exist too, but haven't seen.
- AltmousGadfly 8y agoIt's funny that one of the problems listed is the homeless washing themselves and their clothes in public bathroom sinks. It seems to me that public washrooms and laundry facilities would be a good thing. I seldom have someone sit next to me on the bus and think: "I wish they hadn't washed today."
- joveian 8y agoPortland does have some day centers with laundry and showers, however the usage is way above capacity.
- sambeau 8y ago• No running water inside: "Some people, if they’re homeless, use a sink to wash their laundry," says DiBenedetto. So there’s no sink I find that a very strange feature. What is wrong with homeless people washing clothes in a public sink?
- kaybe 8y agoThe issue are probably blocking the toilet and making a mess. I wonder though, should there then not be public sinks for this kind of thing somewhere else?
- GrryDucape 8y agoNYC needs these--plus, it would be a great test. Public restrooms or even stores/restaurants that will allow you to use their restrooms are rare indeed. Would be a great test of the design too. If your toilet can make it there, it can make it anywhere!
- crispyambulance 8y agoThere are other solutions besides crazy expensive vandal-proof high-tech toilets. Just look at what they do in Europe. * Large Public restrooms in busy city centers and transit hubs where you have attendants constantly cleaning the place and charge people to use the facilities. * Outdoor public urinals that are little more than a drain and a shield. This is an 80% solution that solves the problem of stinking alleys. Much of the time men just need a place to leak during a night of drinking. Women are way better about finding and getting permission to use private restrooms at shops/restaurants.
- m-s 8y agoDid you read the article? The Portland Loo is neither crazy expensive nor high-tech. It's a more inclusive and accessible version of the "public urinal that's little more than a drain and a shield."
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- astura 8y agoThese aren't "crazy expensive vandal-proof high-tech toilets" (which TFA says failed in Seattle); It's an example of "hostile architecture." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture Outdoor urinals are controversial. https://ktla.com/2018/08/14/open-air-public-urinals-cause-controversy-among-paris-residents/ https://ktla.com/2018/08/14/open-air-public-urinals-cause-co... Of course, the problem with pay toilets is you have to actually have change on you.
- magduf 8y ago>Of course, the problem with pay toilets is you have to actually have change on you. That's true, but in Europe IME, you have to have cash on you anyway because so many places don't accept credit cards.