9 ms·

Taiwanese horror game boycotted, removed from China market, company apologizes

81 points by ilamont 8y ago

komali2 8y ago
>We are deeply sorry for hurting everybody,” Damn. While I get the position of the Taiwanese, I sometimes wish they'd send more middle fingers at the mainland. "yeah, xi jinping is a dumpling, fuckm, we apologise for nothing." As if Taiwan is an existential threat to prc by hurling insults as dramatic as "Winnie the Pooh" across the strait. Just seems like more bullying to me.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
  It's definitely bullying but it's also definitely a predictable response from the PRC given the current political climate.
- justicezyx 8y ago
  So if mainlanders' feeling are hurt, it's fine to totally ignore their feelings, just because they are from mainland China? Does this count as racism at all? Or it still counts as mainlanders are not applicable to most usual social rules?
  - yumraj 8y ago
    Both Chinese and Taiwanese are the same race, so how is this racism?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - komali2 8y ago
    Sure, I hear you, and I appreciate your appeal to fairness, because I was going to bring it up too - why is it acceptable for China to demand airlines not even recognize the sovereignty of the nation of Taiwan, but it's not acceptable for Taiwanese citizens to call the man leading the country bullying them "Winnie the Pooh?"
    - justicezyx 8y ago
      > why is it acceptable for China to demand airlines not even recognize the sovereignty of the nation of Taiwan Who accept that? I as one growing up from mainland does not think that's fair. It's just the country showing its power and influence. Your question should be framed on the thread, not extending beyond what's currently being discussed.
      - komali2 8y ago
        >Who accept that? Tons of PRC citizens. Why haven't they "review bombed" their own government? Why did they flock to the internet to yell at GAP when it released a sweater with the proper map of PRC on it, with no Taiwan displayed? As for context, no discussion happens without it. We're not doing logarithms here, we're talking about geopolitics. I reject the notion that I should keep my discussion "framed."
  - soulchild37 8y ago
    Mainlanders have been destroying landscape / treating locals badly when visiting foreign country, talking about feelings, huh.
  - gpm 8y ago
    No, if peoples feelings are hurt over political speech, it's fine to totally ignore their feelings. It not only has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with national boundary, political association, or anything else. It's just a thing that we (westerners) take as a fundamental right. It's irrelevant, but I also doubt that a substantial percentage of mainlanders actually have their feelings hurt by comparing the ruler to Winnie the Pooh...
    - jay_kyburz 8y ago
      Yeah, Trump is regularly compared to a lot worse.
    - justicezyx 8y ago
      > No, if peoples feelings are hurt over political speech, it's fine to totally ignore their feelings. How is that possible. If you are educated to love someone as your dearest, how would you not taking ill if someone else is mocking that person. It's a separate issue that if that education is good or bad. But you got to set your context right: no feeling is automatically born, it's from experience. > but I also doubt that a substantial percentage of mainlanders actually have their feelings hurt by comparing the ruler to Winnie the Pooh... Well, if you are not from China, then do not doubt how I would quantify the impact. Let me tell you, a random tier-3 dota player from a SEA pro team, "kuku", said some racial slang on a pub game. And then he was threatened to death, and so many people voiced their angry that the Dota2 maker, Valve, has to officially ban that player so that he wont enter the country and causes unnecessary issues for the company (well, you know any company bend to profits). Do not paraphrase what you know to other nations, especially one that has their culture and history inherited since 2k+ years ago.
      - komali2 8y ago
        >especially one that has their culture and history inherited since 2k+ years ago. Can you expand on the relevance of this? It seems you're implying that your regional history and culture is somehow older/better than anyone else's. That would be silly - European culture extends so far back their early governments were eloping with Egyptian Pharos. It's also silly because you and I have nothing at all to do with our country's history - it happened before we were born, and we didn't get a choice of nationhood.
- z2 8y ago
  When I buy a game, or any consumable for that matter, I'm not expecting angry rogue staff to hide political Easter eggs. There's a place for activism/satire, but perhaps not on the salary of a presumably neutral employer.
  - jtms 8y ago
    What makes you so sure it was “rogue” staff that put the imagery in?
    - komali2 8y ago
      I believe the company put out a statement to that effect - they're casting blame on a single employee. Could just be damage control while they snigger behind their hands for all I know.
    - z2 8y ago
      That's what the article said, unless the developer made it up for damage control. I'm not defending the abhorrent overreacting that led to the company self-censoring. It's just, if the game makers scripted this and designed it intentionally it would be great and a whole different story. Otherwise it's kind of like buying a comic to find an artist hid animal rights messages in it. It doesn't mean I'm against animal rights, but it just feels unintentional, kind of like a bug.
  - myrandomcomment 8y ago
    Easter eggs and the like are a very long and old tradition. Heck, there is even stuff one of my past employers shipped, including in production networking code. The customers that found it laughed quite hard and asked for the details. I suggest that you refrain from buying anything.
    - z2 8y ago
      This is going to sound like a killjoy, but it's all fun and games until an Easter egg unintentionally introduces a weak point. Microsoft made a point of banning them entirely, and high profile easter eggs these days are well designed and tested, not inserted by one person for kicks :)
- duxup 8y ago
  I guess I'd "enjoy" seeing it, but the folks who made the game have to live with the consequences. I'm not going to ask them to take that hit to amuse me.
- peppatherappa 8y ago
  I am Taiwanese who is currently studying in US college. I would like to say to hacker news: please stop supporting the Chinese government. Please try not to buy products from China. It is a bit harder, but it's possible. Last week I went to Fry's for a new pair of headphones, and it only took me a few tries before finding one made in Indonesia and another made in Thailand. If more of us do this, we can force more manufacturers to move out of China faster. Thank you.
  - magicnmonkey 8y ago
    They all use many parts made in China, so what's the point? There is no way you can get a product which doesn't use Chinese parts as many rare metals are minned in large quantities (hences lower cost) in China only.
- i_am_proteus 8y ago
  Looks like PRC leadership just played perfectly into the hands of these ROC devs. Not only did they get free publicity, but they've gotten the communist party to publicly (and internationally) telegraph not just how petty they are, but also how much the communist government fears a threat to their power from within mainland China.
- petre 8y ago
  In reality China is the one bulying Taiwan through the one China policy, open threats, reminders to reunification (through force), military bases on shoals in the South China Sea etc.
  - polotics 8y ago
    Yep. The best bit was a mainland military leader stating that anyone opposing the death of Taiwanese democracy is committing a war crime, hence deserving the death penalty. Xi is no Winnie the Pooh, and his lackeys are not happy piggies.
yumraj 8y ago
Had not even heard of the game till now. Streisand effect in the making?
- a012 8y ago
  There are many (mobile) games those are released base on regional, so if it's locked for CN (or Asia in general) you'll need to sideload the games into your phones but it's risky to do it.
- colechristensen 8y ago
  I don't think so. People know Taiwan != China. The censorship is a projection of power, not hiding a secret. Nobody calling the king fat because he cuts off heads doesn't change the fact that everybody can see he is indeed overweight.
duxup 8y ago
It's always a little disturbing to see speech like calling a political leader “Winnie the Pooh” get such a response.
- bordercases 8y ago
  Someone got memed by WeChat's censorship policy.
- pennaMan 8y ago
  Look up what kind of speech got projects removed from GitHub (nothing to do with China or any political leader) if you really want to be disturbed. At least in this case there's a nation state involved, with a well known highly tuned propaganda machine.
  - Smithalicious 8y ago
    Can you give an example?
sergiotapia 8y ago
Deliberate by the company to get their game name out. I've never heard of this game, but I'm sure it's doing the rounds now.
anonytrary 8y ago
> The new horror video game called “Devotion” created an uproar among Chinese netizens when a poster in the game was discovered to mock Chinese leader Xi Jinping, by referring to him as “Winnie the Pooh.” What? That's it? Damn. That's nothing. Maybe free speech being rampant breeds thick skins, maybe free speech is a good thing.
- judge2020 8y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855
- xfs 8y ago
  That's not it, but it'd be pretty effective to paint the other side as ridiculous with an incomplete picture. Check who wrote this piece. My best guess is Winnie the Pooh was a hint that prompted people to look for more political innuendos, which they found plenty, mostly consisting of ethnic slurs at the mainlanders that mapped exactly to IRL Taiwanese slurs against the Chinese. This game was praised with a passion in China for its quality but people felt betrayed when they found out they are being played.
  - duxup 8y ago
    So is that other content you're talking about actually in there?
    - xfs 8y ago
      I found this link from r/Games to be more informative https://www.spieltimes.com/news/xi-jinping-winnie-the-pooh-moron-found-in-devotion-game-is-being-review-bombed-by-chinese-players/ https://www.spieltimes.com/news/xi-jinping-winnie-the-pooh-m... Again, much cultural context is lost in presenting this issue as merely censoring Winnie the Pooh. Remember, the Winnie the Pooh meme was invented by Chinese netizens to mock Xi. They continue to do so, but things stop being fun and games when the meme is used to mock themselves.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Merem 8y ago
As an aside, the website mentioned in the article, "Spiel Times", seems to be an Indian and not a German one. No idea how that came to be, considering their website and Twitter account show it rather clearly.
smokey7958 8y ago
Now we can definitely know that Taiwan != China. At least, Taiwanese can buy and play the game legally.
cromwellian 8y ago
It's not the PRC government, if I read it right, the take down was a result of a backlash from the gamers. There's a huge amount of "glass heart" nationalism going on online. Any slight criticism of China or Taiwan from either country invites a strong nationalist backlash against the other. It seems these days I can't watch a Chinese video without some political fight breaking out in the comments over small perceived slights. I guess if during the height of the Cold War, the Russians made a game that made fun of the US, there may have been a similar response, but it's hard to imagine these days if a game company put an Orange Donkey Kong and called it Trump that anyone but a few Trump fans would get upset.
- scoot_718 8y ago
  Of course, because their people have to comply otherwise they'll lose their social credit and their ability to travel and their organs.
despera 8y ago
"Red Candle Games"'s first game was Detention. Also a "horror" adventure (wasn't that horrific thought), that was a reference and a criticism to Taiwan's so called "white terror" period: "The term "White Terror" in its broadest meaning refers to the entire period from 1947 to 1987.[4] Around 140,000 Taiwanese were imprisoned during this period, of which from about 3,000 to 4,000 were executed for their real or perceived opposition to the Kuomintang (KMT, Chinese Nationalist Party) government led by Chiang Kai-shek." (wikipedia) So those guys evidently don't hold in high esteem domestic or foreign oppression. But somehow Detention was a great game for the mainland chinese and a historic remark for taiwan's atrocities to its own people (a true statement) but now they have become angry because of a pixel poster with a reference to a meme about their little dictator? I think they should change the poster with the tank man and be done with it. Too bad they can brute force their way through capitalistic ways of buying power and reviews.
beatle_sauce 8y ago
The weibo account of the person who called for a boycott of Devotion, was promptly deleted. "If repeat its words, you help to spread it, you also have responsibility". https://twitter.com/palastinalied11/status/1099295247987761152 https://twitter.com/palastinalied11/status/10992952479877611...
forkLding 8y ago
The reality of the situation is that most of the company's sales comes from the Chinese market, which is the reason why there are so many negative reviews. You need ownership of the game to post a Steam review. This situation could be alleviated if other people buy the game because it has English translations. The reason for anger I've heard from Chinese gamers is that they turned this issue political whereas in the past games didn't involve politics and they're pissed that their apolitical space has been invaded. As well, streaming the game has gotten Chinese game-streamers in trouble or having to take down their streams/videos. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1006510/Devotion/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1006510/Devotion/ you can read the Chinese comments yourselves, they're well-written in English
- uranusjr 8y ago
  > The reality of the situation is that most of the company's sales comes from the Chinese market, which is the reason why there are so many negative reviews. You need ownership of the game to post a Steam review. Except that Steam offers full refund without removing your review. This is a well-known strategy for review spammers ;)
- ladygungun 8y ago
  hey, are you ok? The reality is that the game had sold over one million copies, and while it does has English translation and gained some popularity in other regions, the rest of the sales had gone to Chinese gamers whom bought the game just to leave negative reviews on Steam. Set other games and other studios aside, Red Candles had always been political, their first hit, the Detention, presented the horror and surreal reality of authoritarian KMT regime in Taiwan. The Chinese gamers should have clear sense of what they are engaging with.

81 points by ilamont 8y ago

>We are deeply sorry for hurting everybody,” Damn. While I get the position of the Taiwanese, I sometimes wish they'd send more middle fingers at the mainland. "yeah, xi jinping is a dumpling, fuckm, we apologise for nothing." As if Taiwan is an existential threat to prc by hurling insults as dramatic as "Winnie the Pooh" across the strait. Just seems like more bullying to me.

bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
It's definitely bullying but it's also definitely a predictable response from the PRC given the current political climate.
justicezyx 8y ago
So if mainlanders' feeling are hurt, it's fine to totally ignore their feelings, just because they are from mainland China? Does this count as racism at all? Or it still counts as mainlanders are not applicable to most usual social rules?
- yumraj 8y ago
  Both Chinese and Taiwanese are the same race, so how is this racism?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- komali2 8y ago
  Sure, I hear you, and I appreciate your appeal to fairness, because I was going to bring it up too - why is it acceptable for China to demand airlines not even recognize the sovereignty of the nation of Taiwan, but it's not acceptable for Taiwanese citizens to call the man leading the country bullying them "Winnie the Pooh?"
  - justicezyx 8y ago
    > why is it acceptable for China to demand airlines not even recognize the sovereignty of the nation of Taiwan Who accept that? I as one growing up from mainland does not think that's fair. It's just the country showing its power and influence. Your question should be framed on the thread, not extending beyond what's currently being discussed.
    - komali2 8y ago
      >Who accept that? Tons of PRC citizens. Why haven't they "review bombed" their own government? Why did they flock to the internet to yell at GAP when it released a sweater with the proper map of PRC on it, with no Taiwan displayed? As for context, no discussion happens without it. We're not doing logarithms here, we're talking about geopolitics. I reject the notion that I should keep my discussion "framed."
- soulchild37 8y ago
  Mainlanders have been destroying landscape / treating locals badly when visiting foreign country, talking about feelings, huh.
- gpm 8y ago
  No, if peoples feelings are hurt over political speech, it's fine to totally ignore their feelings. It not only has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with national boundary, political association, or anything else. It's just a thing that we (westerners) take as a fundamental right. It's irrelevant, but I also doubt that a substantial percentage of mainlanders actually have their feelings hurt by comparing the ruler to Winnie the Pooh...
  - jay_kyburz 8y ago
    Yeah, Trump is regularly compared to a lot worse.
  - justicezyx 8y ago
    > No, if peoples feelings are hurt over political speech, it's fine to totally ignore their feelings. How is that possible. If you are educated to love someone as your dearest, how would you not taking ill if someone else is mocking that person. It's a separate issue that if that education is good or bad. But you got to set your context right: no feeling is automatically born, it's from experience. > but I also doubt that a substantial percentage of mainlanders actually have their feelings hurt by comparing the ruler to Winnie the Pooh... Well, if you are not from China, then do not doubt how I would quantify the impact. Let me tell you, a random tier-3 dota player from a SEA pro team, "kuku", said some racial slang on a pub game. And then he was threatened to death, and so many people voiced their angry that the Dota2 maker, Valve, has to officially ban that player so that he wont enter the country and causes unnecessary issues for the company (well, you know any company bend to profits). Do not paraphrase what you know to other nations, especially one that has their culture and history inherited since 2k+ years ago.
    - komali2 8y ago
      >especially one that has their culture and history inherited since 2k+ years ago. Can you expand on the relevance of this? It seems you're implying that your regional history and culture is somehow older/better than anyone else's. That would be silly - European culture extends so far back their early governments were eloping with Egyptian Pharos. It's also silly because you and I have nothing at all to do with our country's history - it happened before we were born, and we didn't get a choice of nationhood.
z2 8y ago
When I buy a game, or any consumable for that matter, I'm not expecting angry rogue staff to hide political Easter eggs. There's a place for activism/satire, but perhaps not on the salary of a presumably neutral employer.
- jtms 8y ago
  What makes you so sure it was “rogue” staff that put the imagery in?
  - komali2 8y ago
    I believe the company put out a statement to that effect - they're casting blame on a single employee. Could just be damage control while they snigger behind their hands for all I know.
  - z2 8y ago
    That's what the article said, unless the developer made it up for damage control. I'm not defending the abhorrent overreacting that led to the company self-censoring. It's just, if the game makers scripted this and designed it intentionally it would be great and a whole different story. Otherwise it's kind of like buying a comic to find an artist hid animal rights messages in it. It doesn't mean I'm against animal rights, but it just feels unintentional, kind of like a bug.
- myrandomcomment 8y ago
  Easter eggs and the like are a very long and old tradition. Heck, there is even stuff one of my past employers shipped, including in production networking code. The customers that found it laughed quite hard and asked for the details. I suggest that you refrain from buying anything.
  - z2 8y ago
    This is going to sound like a killjoy, but it's all fun and games until an Easter egg unintentionally introduces a weak point. Microsoft made a point of banning them entirely, and high profile easter eggs these days are well designed and tested, not inserted by one person for kicks :)
duxup 8y ago
I guess I'd "enjoy" seeing it, but the folks who made the game have to live with the consequences. I'm not going to ask them to take that hit to amuse me.
peppatherappa 8y ago
I am Taiwanese who is currently studying in US college. I would like to say to hacker news: please stop supporting the Chinese government. Please try not to buy products from China. It is a bit harder, but it's possible. Last week I went to Fry's for a new pair of headphones, and it only took me a few tries before finding one made in Indonesia and another made in Thailand. If more of us do this, we can force more manufacturers to move out of China faster. Thank you.
- magicnmonkey 8y ago
  They all use many parts made in China, so what's the point? There is no way you can get a product which doesn't use Chinese parts as many rare metals are minned in large quantities (hences lower cost) in China only.
i_am_proteus 8y ago
Looks like PRC leadership just played perfectly into the hands of these ROC devs. Not only did they get free publicity, but they've gotten the communist party to publicly (and internationally) telegraph not just how petty they are, but also how much the communist government fears a threat to their power from within mainland China.
petre 8y ago
In reality China is the one bulying Taiwan through the one China policy, open threats, reminders to reunification (through force), military bases on shoals in the South China Sea etc.
- polotics 8y ago
  Yep. The best bit was a mainland military leader stating that anyone opposing the death of Taiwanese democracy is committing a war crime, hence deserving the death penalty. Xi is no Winnie the Pooh, and his lackeys are not happy piggies.

yumraj 8y ago

Had not even heard of the game till now. Streisand effect in the making?

a012 8y ago
There are many (mobile) games those are released base on regional, so if it's locked for CN (or Asia in general) you'll need to sideload the games into your phones but it's risky to do it.
colechristensen 8y ago
I don't think so. People know Taiwan != China. The censorship is a projection of power, not hiding a secret. Nobody calling the king fat because he cuts off heads doesn't change the fact that everybody can see he is indeed overweight.

duxup 8y ago

It's always a little disturbing to see speech like calling a political leader “Winnie the Pooh” get such a response.

bordercases 8y ago
Someone got memed by WeChat's censorship policy.
pennaMan 8y ago
Look up what kind of speech got projects removed from GitHub (nothing to do with China or any political leader) if you really want to be disturbed. At least in this case there's a nation state involved, with a well known highly tuned propaganda machine.
- Smithalicious 8y ago
  Can you give an example?

sergiotapia 8y ago

Deliberate by the company to get their game name out. I've never heard of this game, but I'm sure it's doing the rounds now.

anonytrary 8y ago

> The new horror video game called “Devotion” created an uproar among Chinese netizens when a poster in the game was discovered to mock Chinese leader Xi Jinping, by referring to him as “Winnie the Pooh.” What? That's it? Damn. That's nothing. Maybe free speech being rampant breeds thick skins, maybe free speech is a good thing.

judge2020 8y ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855
xfs 8y ago
That's not it, but it'd be pretty effective to paint the other side as ridiculous with an incomplete picture. Check who wrote this piece. My best guess is Winnie the Pooh was a hint that prompted people to look for more political innuendos, which they found plenty, mostly consisting of ethnic slurs at the mainlanders that mapped exactly to IRL Taiwanese slurs against the Chinese. This game was praised with a passion in China for its quality but people felt betrayed when they found out they are being played.
- duxup 8y ago
  So is that other content you're talking about actually in there?
  - xfs 8y ago
    I found this link from r/Games to be more informative https://www.spieltimes.com/news/xi-jinping-winnie-the-pooh-moron-found-in-devotion-game-is-being-review-bombed-by-chinese-players/ https://www.spieltimes.com/news/xi-jinping-winnie-the-pooh-m... Again, much cultural context is lost in presenting this issue as merely censoring Winnie the Pooh. Remember, the Winnie the Pooh meme was invented by Chinese netizens to mock Xi. They continue to do so, but things stop being fun and games when the meme is used to mock themselves.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Merem 8y ago

As an aside, the website mentioned in the article, "Spiel Times", seems to be an Indian and not a German one. No idea how that came to be, considering their website and Twitter account show it rather clearly.

smokey7958 8y ago

Now we can definitely know that Taiwan != China. At least, Taiwanese can buy and play the game legally.

cromwellian 8y ago

It's not the PRC government, if I read it right, the take down was a result of a backlash from the gamers. There's a huge amount of "glass heart" nationalism going on online. Any slight criticism of China or Taiwan from either country invites a strong nationalist backlash against the other. It seems these days I can't watch a Chinese video without some political fight breaking out in the comments over small perceived slights. I guess if during the height of the Cold War, the Russians made a game that made fun of the US, there may have been a similar response, but it's hard to imagine these days if a game company put an Orange Donkey Kong and called it Trump that anyone but a few Trump fans would get upset.

scoot_718 8y ago
Of course, because their people have to comply otherwise they'll lose their social credit and their ability to travel and their organs.

despera 8y ago

"Red Candle Games"'s first game was Detention. Also a "horror" adventure (wasn't that horrific thought), that was a reference and a criticism to Taiwan's so called "white terror" period: "The term "White Terror" in its broadest meaning refers to the entire period from 1947 to 1987.[4] Around 140,000 Taiwanese were imprisoned during this period, of which from about 3,000 to 4,000 were executed for their real or perceived opposition to the Kuomintang (KMT, Chinese Nationalist Party) government led by Chiang Kai-shek." (wikipedia) So those guys evidently don't hold in high esteem domestic or foreign oppression. But somehow Detention was a great game for the mainland chinese and a historic remark for taiwan's atrocities to its own people (a true statement) but now they have become angry because of a pixel poster with a reference to a meme about their little dictator? I think they should change the poster with the tank man and be done with it. Too bad they can brute force their way through capitalistic ways of buying power and reviews.

beatle_sauce 8y ago

The weibo account of the person who called for a boycott of Devotion, was promptly deleted. "If repeat its words, you help to spread it, you also have responsibility". https://twitter.com/palastinalied11/status/1099295247987761152 https://twitter.com/palastinalied11/status/10992952479877611...

forkLding 8y ago

The reality of the situation is that most of the company's sales comes from the Chinese market, which is the reason why there are so many negative reviews. You need ownership of the game to post a Steam review. This situation could be alleviated if other people buy the game because it has English translations. The reason for anger I've heard from Chinese gamers is that they turned this issue political whereas in the past games didn't involve politics and they're pissed that their apolitical space has been invaded. As well, streaming the game has gotten Chinese game-streamers in trouble or having to take down their streams/videos. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1006510/Devotion/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1006510/Devotion/ you can read the Chinese comments yourselves, they're well-written in English

uranusjr 8y ago
> The reality of the situation is that most of the company's sales comes from the Chinese market, which is the reason why there are so many negative reviews. You need ownership of the game to post a Steam review. Except that Steam offers full refund without removing your review. This is a well-known strategy for review spammers ;)
ladygungun 8y ago
hey, are you ok? The reality is that the game had sold over one million copies, and while it does has English translation and gained some popularity in other regions, the rest of the sales had gone to Chinese gamers whom bought the game just to leave negative reviews on Steam. Set other games and other studios aside, Red Candles had always been political, their first hit, the Detention, presented the horror and surreal reality of authoritarian KMT regime in Taiwan. The Chinese gamers should have clear sense of what they are engaging with.