8 ms·

Do not donate to me (2013)

93 points by paulintrognon 8y ago

snazz 8y ago
This seems like a very fair policy if the developer doesn’t need the money, as in this example. However, as a user, I hope that setting up a recurring donation keeps the project going and provides motivation to its author.
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  > However, as a user, I hope that setting up a recurring donation keeps the project going and provides motivation to its author. Which is yet another reason to not want donations, since you're basically describing employment, turning their casual hobby into an obligation.
  - johnday 8y ago
    I think the parent might have meant something slightly different - that by donating, they are showing the author that their work has actual value to other people, and that motivates them to continue. That's my take, anyway: a social rather than fiscal incentive.
    - tylerhou 8y ago
      The developer could ask people to tell him/her when they donate (on the developer's behalf) to a charity the developer suggests. This would have the same effect as showing the developer that her/his work has value.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  I may be misremembering (and the situation is a bit different now, lending credence to the idea that I'm misremembering), but I think Bram Moolenaar used to request that people donate to the children of Uganda and send a post card to him. For people who would like that donation, I think that would be awesome: make the donation and send an email saying that you did it. This should provide the motivation you are looking for. Rather than a notification that money when into their bank account, it's a notification that it went into a bank account that they value higher.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Here’s an example from what he’d send you if you sponsored vim a while ago: > Thank you very much for your contribution towards the development of Vim! This will motivate me to spend more time on improving Vim. The money will be used to help needy children in Kibaale, Uganda.
- endorphone 8y ago
  This particular trend -- not only not asking for contributions, but openly denying them (often in advance, and when none were ever offered) for a better cause -- is a rising tendency across virtually all of Western society. Watch any challenge with a monetary prize and invariably they'll turn the sad music on and demand that the contestants regale a tale about the old grandma in the old country, or the kid's club they want to donate to, etc (obviously not the hot tub they really plan on buying, or the better SUV). If a kid has a lemonade stand they can't just want to buy a WOW membership, they have to promise that it is for some good cause. Etc. Honest giving is great, but undermining the value of work to do so isn't always constructive. In this case presumably the hypothetical people who would have given him cash are also in a good place financially.
  - chongli 8y ago
    Your analysis is good but there is one element you're missing: chargebacks. People who accept a lot of donations get hit with chargebacks from time to time and they can be so difficult to deal with that they actually cost the recipient money. This is a common complaint among people who take donations for a living, such as Twitch streamers. If you ask any streamer, they will tell you they prefer Twitch "bits" over any one-off donation specifically because bits are non-refundable. Unfortunately, there are people out there who go around donating and then doing a chargeback just to troll streamers they don't like. It's a really frustrating element of the system which happens to be set up to prefer the customer over the vendor in all disputes, making it ripe for abuse.
    - Aeolun 8y ago
      It seems like any dispute involving a donation should pretty much be lost by default. It’s not as if anyone delivers an inappropriate product for a donation...
      - chongli 8y ago
        You would think so, but that's not the case. The problem is that people who receive donations don't have any special status with the payment processor. They are treated like any other vendor, so chargebacks are handled the same way.
- Zrdr 8y ago
  The author explicitly said it is not motivated by money for this project. When you have money, you may like the power it gives you to make incentives so people do what you like. However, in some rare cases, someone doesn't need your money and prefers doing thing how himself likes. If you don't like that, that's your problem and not the one of the people refusing your money.
aboutruby 8y ago
Why not accept donations then redistribute them to those causes? Also I recommend https://www.givewell.org https://www.givewell.org
- antoineMoPa 8y ago
  I wonder if there is a thing like Patreon, but the money goes directly to foundations you choose.
  - comboy 8y ago
    If there's enough need for it to gain any traction, things like Patreon will just add it as an option.
- m000 8y ago
  A number of reasons. First, you may end-up paying some middle-man twice. Second, you may have to declare any donations as income and be taxed for them (more paperwork for you). Third, in order to reclaim the tax you paid for the donations, you will probably have to distribute them to charities within your (already rich) country.
  - kingosticks 8y ago
    And having accepted the donation, some confused doners will think you owe them something. I think it's important to entirely remove that possible misunderstanding.
- gbear605 8y ago
  This only works if the developer will be donating to open source already and not caring about deducting it on taxes, but they could say “donate to charity in my name and let me know how much” and then they donate that much less.
praneshp 8y ago
Needs 2013 tag.
johannes1234321 8y ago
When I look a different Patreon accounts of people I know, where I have a rough understanding of their dayjob and life situation I often wonder about the sums. The sums listed are often too high to be ignored, but too little to call it a job, even jut part-time. Few hours a month. Me that would put in a strange situation. I would get the feeling of having to return some work for that, which takes the fun out of some projects, but doesn't pay the bills. (especially if I add time for accounting, declaring axes on it etc.) Of course my view dosn't transfer to others and I understand that many people have a need for a more diverse income sources and eve low recurring (monthly) Patreon payments are planable, giving some base line, but I understand the author's point.
- 9dev 8y ago
  > declare the axes Forrest shivers in fear
  - johannes1234321 8y ago
    Somewhere I lost a t, it seems
Tharkun 8y ago
He's Belgian. Belgian taxes are awful. If you want to accept 'donations' for software, you have to be self-employed. This comes with a boatload of hassle, including paying national insurance contributions of 20%. (which are calculated based on your income from three years ago). And given that the man has a day job, he'd also be looking at a 50% tax rate for these donations. So a 100eur donation would net about 40eur and a bunch of paperwork. Not worth the hassle unless we'rw talking at least thousands a year.
- Kirth 8y ago
  And if you are unlucky (Belgian IT salaries aren't that great compared to the rest of Western Europe) you gets bumped a tax class, possibly making those donations a net loss.
  - patd 8y ago
    This loss concept is just a myth: the new tax rate only applies to the amount above X. If you're at the edge of the 45% rate, the extra 100€ will be taxed at 50%, but the amount you earned previously will not be impacted and still be taxed as before.
  - Insanity 8y ago
    Being a software engineer in Flanders (the Belgian region the article author is from) I can tell you that this is a misconception. Our taxes in Belgium are high, the salaries for engineers are well above average. In pratice, it's possible to end up in different tax 'scales', but they'll not end up in a net loss. I'm also hugely in favour of the system here. Health care is a non-issue. I need prescription glasses (dioptry -8.5) and I pay nothing for those. Yearly dentist appointment? about 20 euro you end up paying after the 'mutualiteit' pays you back. Similar for doctors appointments or hospital appointments. Being married with a Mexican (family living in the US) I can tell you that I hugely prefer our system over the US or Mexican system.
- carlmr 8y ago
  Same reason I have I not collected any OS bounties. Not worth the hassle for a meager $100. I'd maybe look into it at $1000+, but most bounties aren't really anything close to making it worth your while if you have a job.
rawmodz 8y ago
Man I don’t know what to say.
mnemotechny 8y ago
Great morals! Love people with the work ethic like you
gowld 8y ago
This stinks but also looks like a startup opportunity. Add a badge to your website to take donations via DonateMoney.com, which provides appropriate tax paperwork services in many jurisdictions, shows donors where their money goes (taxes, etc), and provides an option to revert donations if the total donates doesn't meet a convenience threshold within a specifed time range (3-12 months).

93 points by paulintrognon 8y ago

This seems like a very fair policy if the developer doesn’t need the money, as in this example. However, as a user, I hope that setting up a recurring donation keeps the project going and provides motivation to its author.

newnewpdro 8y ago
> However, as a user, I hope that setting up a recurring donation keeps the project going and provides motivation to its author. Which is yet another reason to not want donations, since you're basically describing employment, turning their casual hobby into an obligation.
- johnday 8y ago
  I think the parent might have meant something slightly different - that by donating, they are showing the author that their work has actual value to other people, and that motivates them to continue. That's my take, anyway: a social rather than fiscal incentive.
  - tylerhou 8y ago
    The developer could ask people to tell him/her when they donate (on the developer's behalf) to a charity the developer suggests. This would have the same effect as showing the developer that her/his work has value.
mikekchar 8y ago
I may be misremembering (and the situation is a bit different now, lending credence to the idea that I'm misremembering), but I think Bram Moolenaar used to request that people donate to the children of Uganda and send a post card to him. For people who would like that donation, I think that would be awesome: make the donation and send an email saying that you did it. This should provide the motivation you are looking for. Rather than a notification that money when into their bank account, it's a notification that it went into a bank account that they value higher.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Here’s an example from what he’d send you if you sponsored vim a while ago: > Thank you very much for your contribution towards the development of Vim! This will motivate me to spend more time on improving Vim. The money will be used to help needy children in Kibaale, Uganda.
endorphone 8y ago
This particular trend -- not only not asking for contributions, but openly denying them (often in advance, and when none were ever offered) for a better cause -- is a rising tendency across virtually all of Western society. Watch any challenge with a monetary prize and invariably they'll turn the sad music on and demand that the contestants regale a tale about the old grandma in the old country, or the kid's club they want to donate to, etc (obviously not the hot tub they really plan on buying, or the better SUV). If a kid has a lemonade stand they can't just want to buy a WOW membership, they have to promise that it is for some good cause. Etc. Honest giving is great, but undermining the value of work to do so isn't always constructive. In this case presumably the hypothetical people who would have given him cash are also in a good place financially.
- chongli 8y ago
  Your analysis is good but there is one element you're missing: chargebacks. People who accept a lot of donations get hit with chargebacks from time to time and they can be so difficult to deal with that they actually cost the recipient money. This is a common complaint among people who take donations for a living, such as Twitch streamers. If you ask any streamer, they will tell you they prefer Twitch "bits" over any one-off donation specifically because bits are non-refundable. Unfortunately, there are people out there who go around donating and then doing a chargeback just to troll streamers they don't like. It's a really frustrating element of the system which happens to be set up to prefer the customer over the vendor in all disputes, making it ripe for abuse.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    It seems like any dispute involving a donation should pretty much be lost by default. It’s not as if anyone delivers an inappropriate product for a donation...
    - chongli 8y ago
      You would think so, but that's not the case. The problem is that people who receive donations don't have any special status with the payment processor. They are treated like any other vendor, so chargebacks are handled the same way.
Zrdr 8y ago
The author explicitly said it is not motivated by money for this project. When you have money, you may like the power it gives you to make incentives so people do what you like. However, in some rare cases, someone doesn't need your money and prefers doing thing how himself likes. If you don't like that, that's your problem and not the one of the people refusing your money.

aboutruby 8y ago

Why not accept donations then redistribute them to those causes? Also I recommend https://www.givewell.org https://www.givewell.org

antoineMoPa 8y ago
I wonder if there is a thing like Patreon, but the money goes directly to foundations you choose.
- comboy 8y ago
  If there's enough need for it to gain any traction, things like Patreon will just add it as an option.
m000 8y ago
A number of reasons. First, you may end-up paying some middle-man twice. Second, you may have to declare any donations as income and be taxed for them (more paperwork for you). Third, in order to reclaim the tax you paid for the donations, you will probably have to distribute them to charities within your (already rich) country.
- kingosticks 8y ago
  And having accepted the donation, some confused doners will think you owe them something. I think it's important to entirely remove that possible misunderstanding.
gbear605 8y ago
This only works if the developer will be donating to open source already and not caring about deducting it on taxes, but they could say “donate to charity in my name and let me know how much” and then they donate that much less.

praneshp 8y ago

Needs 2013 tag.

johannes1234321 8y ago

When I look a different Patreon accounts of people I know, where I have a rough understanding of their dayjob and life situation I often wonder about the sums. The sums listed are often too high to be ignored, but too little to call it a job, even jut part-time. Few hours a month. Me that would put in a strange situation. I would get the feeling of having to return some work for that, which takes the fun out of some projects, but doesn't pay the bills. (especially if I add time for accounting, declaring axes on it etc.) Of course my view dosn't transfer to others and I understand that many people have a need for a more diverse income sources and eve low recurring (monthly) Patreon payments are planable, giving some base line, but I understand the author's point.

9dev 8y ago
> declare the axes Forrest shivers in fear
- johannes1234321 8y ago
  Somewhere I lost a t, it seems

Tharkun 8y ago

He's Belgian. Belgian taxes are awful. If you want to accept 'donations' for software, you have to be self-employed. This comes with a boatload of hassle, including paying national insurance contributions of 20%. (which are calculated based on your income from three years ago). And given that the man has a day job, he'd also be looking at a 50% tax rate for these donations. So a 100eur donation would net about 40eur and a bunch of paperwork. Not worth the hassle unless we'rw talking at least thousands a year.

Kirth 8y ago
And if you are unlucky (Belgian IT salaries aren't that great compared to the rest of Western Europe) you gets bumped a tax class, possibly making those donations a net loss.
- patd 8y ago
  This loss concept is just a myth: the new tax rate only applies to the amount above X. If you're at the edge of the 45% rate, the extra 100€ will be taxed at 50%, but the amount you earned previously will not be impacted and still be taxed as before.
- Insanity 8y ago
  Being a software engineer in Flanders (the Belgian region the article author is from) I can tell you that this is a misconception. Our taxes in Belgium are high, the salaries for engineers are well above average. In pratice, it's possible to end up in different tax 'scales', but they'll not end up in a net loss. I'm also hugely in favour of the system here. Health care is a non-issue. I need prescription glasses (dioptry -8.5) and I pay nothing for those. Yearly dentist appointment? about 20 euro you end up paying after the 'mutualiteit' pays you back. Similar for doctors appointments or hospital appointments. Being married with a Mexican (family living in the US) I can tell you that I hugely prefer our system over the US or Mexican system.
carlmr 8y ago
Same reason I have I not collected any OS bounties. Not worth the hassle for a meager $100. I'd maybe look into it at $1000+, but most bounties aren't really anything close to making it worth your while if you have a job.

rawmodz 8y ago

Man I don’t know what to say.

mnemotechny 8y ago

Great morals! Love people with the work ethic like you

gowld 8y ago

This stinks but also looks like a startup opportunity. Add a badge to your website to take donations via DonateMoney.com, which provides appropriate tax paperwork services in many jurisdictions, shows donors where their money goes (taxes, etc), and provides an option to revert donations if the total donates doesn't meet a convenience threshold within a specifed time range (3-12 months).