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At 18 Stories, Mjøsa Tower Is World’s Tallest Wooden Building
- mc32 8y agoIt doesn’t make mention but I wonder if to reach 18 storeys this is chemically, heat and compression treated wood? Also, no mention on how they’d keep insects at bay, given the structural criticality of this wood. Never the less, very exciting to see wood so prevalent in new construction. There was this[1] recent discussion on new wood frame midrises being very prevalent. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19152986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19152986
- buss 8y agoIt's all engineered lumber. "This high-rise is being built using glulam, CLT, and Metsä Wood’s Kerto® LVL (laminated veneer lumber)" glulam = glued laminated timber AKA pieces of regular timber stacked & glued together CLT = cross-laminated timber AKA glulam but instead of stacking the lumber, you lay it out in perpendicular layers and glue it together LVL = laminated veneer lumber is like the above, but made like plywood out of wood bits instead of solid lumber, with a hardwood veneer on the outside The wood is also treated to be fire, moisture, and insect resistant
- rurounijones 8y agoGiven one of the things that wooden buildings inspire is a "Hey, we CAN build big buildings in a green manner", how do all the things you mention impact that? It sounds like gluing, treating etc. etc. would really impact the "greenness" of this building
- buss 8y agoI think the green-ness relates more to the fact that growing timber captures carbon dioxide, while producing steel and concrete emit carbon dioxide. The production of the glue, and the processes to glue the timber together certainly emit CO2, but nothing near the emissions of a steel foundry.
- atupis 8y agoCement production emits 5% all man made CO2 emissions.
- ggcdn 8y agoThat's true, but here's a thought: Using engineered wood products potentially allows undesirable or unconventional wood sources to become useful building materials, rather than having to source old growth timber for larger beams/columns. There could be some environmental benefits associated with that.
- 6nf 8y agoI agree with your comment but I just need to point out that beam/column timber is not old growth wood, it's usually just from normal commercial plantations.
- ggcdn 8y agoYou're right for typical studs, joints, posts, etc. However, I was thinking that for a highrise timber building, you might need way larger column cross sections than what we're used to seeing (24"x24" - 36"x36" or larger). The typical wood frame construction method of using a ton of load bearing sheathed stud walls scattered throughout doesn't work with these taller types of buildings. You start to see post and beam/panel type framing, which means higher compressive loads, which means larger member sizes.The spruce/pine/fir trees slated for harvesting softwood lumber here in Canada don't seem to reach that size. Hence, you probably need engineered wood products. As a bonus, you also get better and more consistent mechanical properties.
- 6nf 8y agoOld growth wood is not suitable
- vanderZwan 8y agoOn top of the other replies, you should keep in mind that being more green than producing concrete is pretty easy.
- vvillena 8y agoIt does, but the material is still carbon-negative, the article says. In any case, anything is better than concrete.
- ianai 8y agoWhat’s the problem with concrete? Edit-answered above, concrete produces carbon while wood stores it.
- jdavis703 8y agoI'm excited for more wooden buildings, but the claim that "Compared to cast-in-situ concrete, wood makes it possible for construction time to be slashed by half" seems very optimistic. There's a building boom going on around my office. The steel and concrete office tower next door is by far "sprouting" the fast. On the other side is a residential tower where half of the building is a 20+ floor concrete tower, and the other half is a 5-floor wood frame structure. The concrete tower is going up faster, despite this being the same construction project. Perhaps what I'm missing is that a CLT build is more similar to steel construction than a wood frame building. Perhaps a real civil engineer can weigh in...
- foofoo55 8y agoI'm not a civil engineer, but I do know that a CLT (cross-laminated timber) building can get built faster because many parts are pre-fabricated panels. The University of British Columbia (UBC) built a 18-story wooden building (which is shorter at 54 metres), and it was built relatively fast: https://archinect.com/news/article/150029630/the-world-s-tallest-wood-building-opens-to-residents-at-university-of-british-columbia https://archinect.com/news/article/150029630/the-world-s-tal...
- buildbot 8y agoI got to watch that building be constructed during my masters, it was pretty amazing to watch how quickly it was constructed. Fun fact, UBC has like 3 18-19 story dorms with million dollar views of the entire surrounding area.
- ggcdn 8y agoThis building has two concrete cores (elevator/stair shafts) for lateral resistance that were built ahead of time, and then the wood gravity system came later, So it kinda took more time than normal. Another fun fact - alot of that nice looking wood had to be covered up with drywall for fire code compliance.
- owengee 8y agoConcrete setting times depend on ambient temperature. Too cold and concrete takes longer to achieve the necessary strength to start the next level. Admixtures and other techniques can improve this. So the claim for taking less time than a _concrete_ building is plausible for this location (I assume it's pretty cold compared with other climates). However like you mentioned, a _steel framed_ building would be similar in build time, since the elements can be hoisted and joined in the same way as a CLT building. But that also depends what your slabs are. Most steel framed buildings use concrete slabs, which need to be poured and set, but with high early strength concrete and propping, this takes less time than a conventionally formed concrete building. Concrete buildings can go up really fast, I've seen 5-6 day cycles on jobs. It depends on the complexity of the structure and again the ambient temperature (among other things). So yes concrete can go up faster than CLT as you noted. As an interesting side note, the article mentions that the top floors of this CLT building use concrete for mass to limit swaying.
- ynniv 8y ago"Using wood means greater fire safety" Edit: Outside of how ridiculous this statement is, how does one bring a charred wooden high-rise back up to code?!
- supermw 8y agoWhat is burnt may never burn. See Shou Sugi Ban (焼杉板).
- benj111 8y agoCharcoal? Coke?
- vidarh 8y agoProduction of charcoal and coke both depend on not fully burning the wood or coal, by constraining the oxygen supply, but by heating/baking it to reduce the water content and volatiles. Older processes burn more of the material, in part to help produce the heat, while newer processes try to fuel it mostly of the off-gassing. But the comment above is referring to a specific treatment of wood by charring the outer layer to make it act as a fire retardant.
- benj111 8y agoMy understanding of Shou Sugi Ban is basically to create a charcoal layer on the wood, so its unclear to me how that would prevent it burning, as charcoal is designed to burn. At best I can see it increasing the ignition temperature.
- chipsa 8y agoIt's not fully charcoal (fully carbonized). Wood is mostly two compounds: cellulose and lignin. They undergo thermal decomposition at different temperatures. By partially burning the exterior, you decompose the cellulose, and when you attempt to set it on fire again, it's harder to light, because you no longer have the cellulose decomposition to provide fuel, but have to get to a higher temperature for the lignin to decompose. It's charred, but not charcoal. And yes, mostly it just makes the ignition temperature go up. But that's half the battle for fireproofing. You're mostly not trying to stop it from ever burning, but giving people enough time to evacuate, or the firefighters to put it out with water.
- nurettin 8y agoI can believe that wooden construction techniques have improved over the past however so thousands of years. But I can't bring myself to believe that it is environmentally sustainable.
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoWood for construction (and paper) is harvested from fast-growing industrial pine plantations. Building with old growth wood is inefficient even if it wasn't socially unacceptable. The demand for that stuff is all in high-end furniture and other decorative items.
- jsf01 8y agoIn countries like Norway, the timber companies replant trees. In addition, the growing trees suck up more carbon in comparison to the older trees. You think that mining is preferable to this practically infinite renewable resource?
- magduf 8y agoIt is renewable, but trees take time to grow, and there's only so much space available that's useful for growing those trees. I'm not saying you shouldn't build things out of wood, but the question is how much supply is really reasonably available?
- benj111 8y agoWhy? Compared to concrete, wood is massively lower carbon. I suppose we could get into the weeds of 'sustainability', in that case, unless you're proposing to stop all construction of any decent height, this is probably the best we can reasonably expect.
- rypskar 8y agoCreating building from wood act as a carbon sink, the CO2 is kept in the wood and not released to the air. So using fast growing wood produce negative Co2 output. Also because of among other things, longer growth season from climate change Norway is getting more forest, not less
- sohkamyung 8y agoThat article is from August 2017. The latest one I can find on the tower is from September 2018 but it appears to be nearly complete (target completion data is March 2019). [1] https://archinect.com/news/article/150084833/the-world-s-tallest-timber-tower-structurally-tops-out-in-norway https://archinect.com/news/article/150084833/the-world-s-tal...
- trhway 8y agowhen i see that pressed/glued bamboo kitchenware, i wonder when the bamboo is going to take over the world. Being basically just a crazy fast growing weed grass and thus cheap and abundant, bamboo tensile strength is higher than that of steel, it is harder than oak yet lighter, bamboo cables only increase strength when getting wet : https://makawear.com/blog/things-you-didnt-know-about-bamboo-strength/ https://makawear.com/blog/things-you-didnt-know-about-bamboo...
- ggcdn 8y ago>bamboo tensile strength is higher than that of steel What? Tensile strength of steel is like 400-1200MPa, Bamboo is < 100 MPa.
- trhway 8y agostrictly speaking you're right. My statement is more along those lines: http://www.ijstr.org/final-print/nov2015/Comparative-Analysis-Of-The-Tensile-Strength-Of-Bamboo-And-Reinforcement-Steel-Bars-As-Structural-Member-In-Building-Construction.pdf http://www.ijstr.org/final-print/nov2015/Comparative-Analysi... "Although, the tensile strength of steel is 2.5-3.0 times higher than bamboo and the specific gravity 6-8 times that of bamboo; but by counting their tensile strength/unit weight (bamboo vs steel), the tensile strength of bamboo is 3-4 times that of steel."
- ggcdn 8y agoAs yes, wood has some pretty impressive properties if you normalise by density. But that also means you need bulk to match other materials.
- mikorym 8y agoI don't understand how this is described as "green"? Maybe someone can explain this simply, without emotional bias.
- mikorym 8y agoOk so below were some comments. TL;DR: carbon sink, pulp wood rather than old growth, trees get replanted. I think that is all fine and dandy, but I personally would prefer an article simply describing the building. I don't think it's necessary to go the "this is green" or "better than concrete" route. For me good is good, that's it. Don't need to play towards a debate.
- erk__ 8y agoConcrete production actually produces a surprising amount of co2 globally it is the source of 5% of all co2.
- iceninenines 8y agoThere's work underway to make concrete carbon negative "greener" by mixing it in a sealed container and adding other chemicals to it to bind the CO2 and added carbon as a solid component of the finished concrete. I can't recall if it's the lime or Portland cement step of the process.
- Arn_Thor 8y agoIn most of the world, people consider climate change scientifically proven. There isn't a debate. In Norway, the building is featured as "green" because that is desirable in a world where we want to limit CO2 emissions and other environmental harm
- mikorym 8y agoYou missed what I was saying. Using wood is highly dependent on region. In other places, the greenest building is the one that is already standing. Even if it may be made from concrete.
- JackPoach 8y agoThis is really impressive, but what's the real lifetime is going to be?
- Cthulhu_ 8y agoWell, the wood isn't going to rot if treated and kept dry enough. What's more worrying is how (if) the wood will warp over time, with expansion / contraction due to temperature differences, etc. And how that compares with concrete.
- olau 8y agoCross-laminated wood is apparently very stable. People also ask about fire resistance, but the outermost layer gets charred which then protects the inner for quite some time, compared to traditional steel beams where the heat makes the steel soft. So even though the steel doesn't burn, it needs special fire protection to stay stable for long enough for people to evacuate.
- vidarh 8y agoGol Stave Church is an ~800 years old wooden structure [1]. Most of the exterior paneling have been replaced, but the interior structure is original. And there are plenty of wooden exteriors in Norwegian houses that are 100-200+ years despite the climate. I grew up in one that was about 100 years old and where the exterior was all timber covered with plank. Originally there was sawdust added as insulation, but that was replaced at some point in the 1980's due to the fire hazard. Of course this building is all specially treated wood, and the structure is under a lot more strain, so it's not guaranteed that it translates well, but wood that's treated properly can last a long time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Stave_Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Stave_Church
- JackPoach 8y agoSorry, but you can't compare a multistory building where people live with an old church.
- dpfu 8y agoThere is also the HoHo building („Holzhochhaus“, lit. wood high house) in Vienna, which is a wooden high-rise with 24 stories and 84 m [0]. They just added an antenna to the Mjøsa Tower to break the record. (Boys and their towers…) [0] https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HoHo_Wien https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HoHo_Wien
- tom_mellior 8y agoAccording to that article, HoHo is only 75 percent wood and has a concrete core for the elevators. Still, pretty good. Wikipedia has a list of tallest wooden buildings, very few of which are actually complete: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_wooden_buildings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_wooden_buildin... I recently read about the one in Tokyo which is supposed to be 350 meters tall for a forestry company's 350-year (!) anniversary. The article claims it will be 90% wood, 10% steel: https://e360.yale.edu/digest/tokyo-plans-to-build-1-150-foot-wooden-skyscraper https://e360.yale.edu/digest/tokyo-plans-to-build-1-150-foot...
- latch 8y agoAccording to the original article, Mjøsa Tower also makes use of concrete, though a % isn't given.
- angry_octet 8y agoBut not for structural support, it is to provide mass damping. They could have used lead weights instead.
- dmurray 8y agoA thousand words of German, including a section on its impact on the skyline, but the only image is the HoHo logo? I know I could edit it myself, but this just seems strange for any notable building.
- gberger 8y agoYou'd need to provide an image with a copyright status appropriate for Wikipedia, which might not be trivial in some cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Uploading_images https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Uploading_images
- wodenokoto 8y agoThis article is from 2017, and according to it, the building should be just about completed today. Any news on how it is going?
- vegardx 8y agoDrove past it two weeks ago, looks like it's closed to finished. It felt so out of place. Anyone that knows Brumunddal knows that there's not a lot of tall buildings around. I guess the people on top will get an amazing view though. There aren't even many 18 stories tall buildings in Oslo.
- leadingthenet 8y agoIt's also really ugly.
- raister 8y agoBeauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
- yason 8y agoIf that was true then it wouldn't matter what buildings look like at all.
- iceninenines 8y agoBeer includes free goggles.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y agoNo: you find it ugly, but that's just your opinion.
- leadingthenet 8y agoReally? If there's no such thing as objective beauty measures, then please explain to me why European cities with predominantly traditional architecture have vastly higher numbers of tourists than European cities with predominantly modern architecture. You can't argue it's due to lack of history, or culture, or any other measure, as Europe is vast and diverse, and you can control for all of those other variables. There's weirdos who actually enjoy Brutalist architecture. But the vast majority of us clearly do not. That by itself should give you a hint that there is such a thing as "more beautiful" and "less beautiful".
- jdavis703 8y agoI personally find most historical buildings unattractive... but I still enjoy visiting historical cities because of the culture and history they’ve built up over the years. I also find a few brutalist buildings attractive. My soft spot for brutalism probably comes because as a kid I played on a brutalist playground, so it kind of just feels like the “natural order” of things to me, whereas someone who grew up around a different set of architecture might feel more at home in their “natural habitat.”
- perlgeek 8y agoBut why build 18 stories building at all, in a pretty small town (it looks like)?
- vidarh 8y agoPartly because they can; it's very much partly a demonstration of the technology. Partly because it means not having to let the town spread out and take over surrounding farmland and wilderness when you can build up.
- doktrin 8y agoAlso plentiful access to raw materials. Lots of timber production around Brumunddal.
- kwhitefoot 8y agoIs the timber that is used local?
- vvillena 8y agoBuilding tall is the best way to keep the town small.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y agoIt's also the most environmental-friendly thing to do.
- d--b 8y agoIn my opinion, it looks really dull and plain. It's kind of sad that they would demo such a technology with a so bad-looking tower.
- einarfd 8y agoThe picture in the article is a computer generated rendering, the real building looks better. Although if you don't like the "Scandinavian" school of design. You are probably not going to like it anyway.
- kwhitefoot 8y agoHere is a page with some photographs and more details: https://www.artwave.it/ecowave/ecoarchitecture/eco-tecnologia-ecco-ledificio-in-legno-da-record/ https://www.artwave.it/ecowave/ecoarchitecture/eco-tecnologi....
- bunderbunder 8y agoAfter seeing what this winter's repeated freeze/thaw cycles have been doing to my city, I'm rethinking the idea that wood is less durable, too. Winters are always tough, but climate change seems to be exacerbating it. Where, once upon a time, it used to get cold and stay cold, now the temperature bounces back and forth across the freezing point, and, from what I can tell, it's taking a serious toll. The streets are increasingly a giant mess of potholes and spalling, the sidewalks are a mess, and even the buildings are starting to fall apart. Yesterday I heard about a person in my neighborhood being hit in the head by a falling chunk of masonry.
- jhallenworld 8y agoThis Swiss company makes all-wood houses: meaning no insulation, they just make the solid wood walls thick enough to pass insulation codes without requiring foam or fiberglass. Also no metal fasteners. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_UjIshzMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_UjIshzMc
- thotless 8y ago“Using wood means greater fire safety” I can do opposite speak, too: “Using lead pipes means greater water safety” This fantasy of a charcoal layer protecting the wood from further burning after an initial burn... yeah, just like what happens in a campfire until you shape your campfire like a log cabin to create a wind vortex. Untreated wood means this buiding will be an absolute furnace when it burns down. Also... > When you have a building made of steel and concrete, the steel melts and the building collapses. Wut. As far as I know, the only examples of buildings collapsing because of fire are on 9/11, which anyone with a brain knows did not collapse because of fire.
- jackfoxy 8y agoSame old ugly Bauhaus architecture. Showcasing a beautiful building would do a lot more to promote innovative construction methods.
- SilasX 8y agoHow does it do with acoustic isolation? Do you hear every footstep above you?
- reza_n 8y agoExactly. I used to live in a low rise apartment building which used modern wood construction. Not only did I hear everything above me, but the shock waves (from foot strikes) would also travel thru the structure, so you could feel everything as well.
- nimbius 8y agoSo many people have seemingly given up on wood for strength and durability. As an engine mechanic by trade, some of the strongest equipment in my shop is wooden. - My diagnostics table can support a load of 2000lbs. You could park a golf cart on it. - my Stronghold work bench will handle up to 8000lbs of load. You could park an F250 on it. both of these are maple top/butcher block.
- purplezooey 8y agoWood is terrible for multi-tenant buildings. Ever hear your neighbor walking around in a concrete/steel building?
- danans 8y agoYears again I was on a tour of the Johnson space center in Houston, home of the astronaut training facility. As we were looking at a return capsule I noticed that the interior surfaces were finished with some kind of wood, which struck me as odd, and I asked if it was for aesthetics. The astronaut standing near me explained that wood had the best trade-off of many criteria including weight and durability, and the goal was not to look like an 80s station wagon dashboard.
- danans 8y agoThe Sheffield Winter Garden is a marvel of large scale wood based structural engineering, ironically enough in the heart of the UKs steel city: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Winter_Garden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Winter_Garden
- Fiahil 8y agoIf I want to build a robust wooden house, where should I go ? What kind of resources should I look for ? Any recommendation ?
- simonsarris 8y agoHow robust? Search for "timber framing", there are schools and builders who specialize in it. And of course thousands of hours of YouTube like with any craft.
- nradov 8y agoIf you're building a house no more than 3 stories high then regular wood construction with 2x4s spaced every 16 inches is plenty robust, unless you expect to be hit by floods or hurricanes. And if you do expect hurricanes then wood isn't a good option regardless of construction.
- bigpicture 8y ago> 2x4s spaced every 16 inches is plenty robust The current recommendation is 2x6 exterior framing with 24 inch spacing. This results in a durable and energy efficient home. https://www.apawood.org/data/sites/1/documents/technicalresearch/rip/fplrip-4723-020-HI-Kochkin-Zelinka.pdf https://www.apawood.org/data/sites/1/documents/technicalrese...
- mauvehaus 8y agoHaven't the building code changes in Florida since (I think) Hurricane Andrew advanced the limits of what stick-build, platform-framed structures can survive? I know metal roof tiedowns ("hurricane clips") were created to solve the issue of roofs being peeled off wholesale by high winds catching them under the eaves and lifting.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoThe codes in question are more about requiring builders to do a better job fastening the wood to the other pieces of wood than they are about the strength of the roof itself. Building codes in hurricane prone areas basically require you use all manner of various stamped steel plates and hangers to hold things together to compensate for the fact that nails tend to rip out of things if you pull in the right direction.
- JoeAltmaier 8y agoThere's a reason brick doesn't get taller than 20 stories - the walls at the base get thicker, the taller it gets. At 20 stories you're basically building a pedestal on the bottom, to hold up the top. At that point you just get a larger pedestal on the bottom, and no more usable space going taller. I wonder what the limit is for wood?
- Bluecobra 8y agoIf you're ever in Chicago, check out the Monadnock Building. It's the tallest load bearing brick skyscraper (16 stories) and the foundation goes underneath the sidewalk.
- JoeAltmaier 8y agoBrick on the outside; braced on the inside. From the Wikipedia article: "the masonry walls were braced with an interior frame of cast and wrought iron"
- RickJWagner 8y ago"In fact, wood is a fireproof material despite the commonly held belief that it isn’t." I stopped reading at that sentence. They went too far.
- soneca 8y ago> "In fact, wood is a fireproof material despite the commonly held belief that it isn’t." What? I hold this belief that isn't. I understood the point about keeping its structure well while burning, but it doesn't make it "fireproof"!
- horsawlarway 8y agoEh, I think this is a jargon issue. Wood obviously isn't fireproof. But we have regulations that say that in buildings "fireproof" just means it will last some amount of time before burning or degrading/collapsing. Ex: if you're in an office with a wooden door in the US, go check the side of the door where the hinges are. Most will have a small metal plate indicating that they're rated for some amount of time for fires. It will look like this: https://www.google.com/search?biw=1903&bih=898&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=mK5uXLXRCY7L_QatwqGYCQ&q=fire+rating+wooden+door&oq=fire+rating+wooden+door&gs_l=img.3...4635.7248..7339...0.0..0.148.1110.22j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i67j0j0i5i30j0i8i30j0i24.GFk68BwmuGY#imgrc=wpilUzwYcKwqfM https://www.google.com/search?biw=1903&bih=898&tbm=isch&sa=1...:
- z3t4 8y agoAnd old fireman said that Steel will burn like crazy. Tree probably burns slower. Concrete also "burns" and will change characteristics (become weaker) when exposed to high temperatures. I wouln't like to be in a burning building, but a wooden building would probably be least dangerous !?
- Isamu 8y agoSomebody was just telling me that oxyacetylene torches cut steel by burning it - not melting. That's why they won't cut stainless steel, they can't burn it (oxidize it). Plasma, cutters, on the other hand, cut by melting.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoOxy/fuel cutting is more like rapid oxidation than burning. The reaction is not self sustaining without fucktons of oxygen (you can burn basically anything if there's enough oxygen present). The oxygen stream helps blow away partially oxidized steel. It only works with steel because of the specific combination of metals other than iron in steel. It won't work on cast iron or stainless (though you can certainly melt them). Plasma cutting liquefies the metal with electrical current then blows away the molten metal with air. Take an oxy/fuel torch to a piece of wood and you will quickly have a self sustaining reaction even once the extra oxygen supply (torch) is removed.
- riskneutral 8y ago> When you have a building made of steel and concrete, the steel melts and the building collapses,” says Erik Tveit, Project Manager at HENT AS, the general contractor for the site. Really.