17 ms·

An Honest Living

312 points by severine 8y ago

MrGilbert 8y ago
I know, the quintessence of this article isn't about "quitting your job and do sth. totally different", but... From time to time, I feel like that. Just leave software dev behind, and become a truck driver.
- aserafini 8y ago
  Yes: there’s a guy who comes to the office once a week to water the plants. I regard him enviously as I’m knee-deep in a stack trace or combing logs related to a bug report.
  - cylinder 8y ago
    Haha we have the same thing. Guy is so fit, has a great haircut, and an Apple Watch. He seems like the most content man in the world. This is in Australia where tradespeople often do quite well so it's not uncommon.
  - cr0sh 8y ago
    My wife did this job - "office plant watering". It really isn't as great as it sounds or looks. The pay is about what you'd expect (ie - tiny). Lugging around jugs of water, trying to find a nearby working (and accessible) hose bib to fill them, or having to carry your own water in your vehicle (and hoping nothing leaks)...it was grueling work for her. The upside was you didn't have to talk to many people, not even your employer. She did the work, logged the time, and got paid. But the physical stress was insane, and has left her with more than a few issues (back and joint pain). I look at software engineering differently; when I'm down in the weeds, yeah it sucks - but I know that things could be much worse for me, for much less pay, and what I am experiencing really isn't that big of a deal. I get paid a lot of money for doing something that I find very easy to do; something that is almost second nature for me (I've been programming in some form or another for about 35 years, since I was a kid). I enjoy going into my work, I don't dread it. Many, many people would love to have that. I enjoy the fact that I do. I wish more could say the same about their own work.
- ehnto 8y ago
  I love software and always will, but I don't think it's the kind of job you can stagnate in happily. Like any creative endeavor. I think everyone has periods where they take a step back from code for a while, if not entirely.
  - cntlzw 8y ago
    Programming is a weird kind of job. Imagine what you can do, all the possibilities. You can create something worth billions in your mind alone. On the other hand you are spending your life putting out fires. Software breaks. It always does. You day by day job is finding the flaw in the system. Not to mention that you will program other peoples requirements not the fun stuff one does at home. I started doing this with people. Debugging people. It is not fun and has started to make my life not as pleasant as it used to be.
    - onion2k 8y ago
      You can create something worth billions in your mind alone. No you can't. Every billion dollar product, or even million dollar product, is the result of a team of people doing many more things than writing code.
      - auggierose 8y ago
        Yes you can, and there are examples.
        amelius 8y ago
        An example is not a proof that you "can" in general, because there could also be a large amount of luck involved.
        achievingApathy 8y ago
        I think what you're saying is that an example is not generally proof that just anyone can. It goes a long way in disproving that its impossible, however. There could be a large amount of luck involved in everything and we just don't know it.
- jaaames 8y ago
  Can anyone that has been in the industry for a significant period of time comment on this feeling? I'm 5 years deep professionally, 15 years as a hobby, and no longer enjoying software, at least in it's form consumed by a customer. Similar to a sibling poster, I'm envious of the landscaper, school teacher, or electrician. Has anyone left software and felt better off for it, or regretted it? Interested to hear any anecdotes or insight.
  - pkaye 8y ago
    One of my hobby is doing small improvements around the house. I really enjoy the work that a electrician or carpenter or landscaper does. I fancy myself running one of those businesses but in reality I know the job can be grueling as you get older and the pay is not always great. Also due to major health issues, I think a desk job is the best for me. I think in reality as a developer if you get bored you should change employers and work on different problems.
    - ThePadawan 8y ago
      It's funny, but growing up as a shut-in kid into a career in software development, I think working at a desk is one of the worst parts about it.
    - VBprogrammer 8y ago
      Same, or possibly more extreme. I've renovated most of the rooms in my house which were in a bad state of repair. I've installed a new kitchen. Just got to finish the bathrooms. I do find that spending a weekend putting up plasterboard or tearing out a fireplace gives one a new appreciation for the mental challenges of coding.
  - nf05papsjfVbc 8y ago
    Please do consider that school teachers have unappreciated jobs while they work with insufficient resources to build the future of our socieities. Just imagine "classroom control" for classrooms at different age-groups. If you feel jaded/worn-out/burnt-out by the software field, though teaching can be rewarding, please do try and understand what it entails before getting into it. Perhaps you already know all this and in that case please forgive my unsolicited advice.
- 34343434n 8y ago
  yes, I feel this way from time to time, after 11 of years as a dev. think about becoming a mechanic, electrician, until I realize to get to the level of my current pay would take me years
- Zanni 8y ago
  How Starbucks Saved My Life [1] is a good read along those lines, although it's highly dependent on how much sympathy you feel for the author and his responsibility for his circumstances. I think there's a universal appeal, especially for knowledge workers, in the fantasy of living a simple life and doing tangible work with immediate benefits. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WCWUVS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WCWUVS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
- htanirs 8y ago
  >> From time to time, I feel like that. Just leave software dev behind, and become a truck driver. I have the exact thoughts sometimes. And I ask myself why truck driver. Maybe it represents the opposite of software career. More work in real world vs virtual. Be outside vs stuck in cubicle. Perceived freedom and independence vs managing self / team / customer. Work is restricted to a day vs work piling up. Not carrying the work home vs being switched on always. Less expectation vs imposter syndrome casual interactions vs formal communication Truck driving as a career has its own challenges. But my mind perceives it to be a better choice. Grass always looks greener on the other side.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    And I ask myself why truck driver. If you are very visual-spatial, passively taking in scenery while driving feeds the same need as website design, basically.
    - killjoywashere 8y ago
      My cousin is a truck driver. It's mainly a miserable existence, sleeping in the cab on long haul jobs across the Great Plains. He sees his family every other week. For him it's just enough better than his previous job, which was getting shot at in Afghanistan. His dead buddies are tattooed on his arm as a reminder. If you can do what you do, and chose to drive a truck instead, I suspect he would question your judgement.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I was addressing (one factor in) why programmers might fantasize about trucking when they are feeling fed up. Presumably, if they are fantasizing about getting a commercial driver's license and driving a truck, they already drive a car. So some part of their brain likely recognizes that driving is a passive means to meet visual-spatial needs that are likely being met with more effort in some sense currently. I'm not a programmer. I also no longer drive. I gave up my car more than a decade ago and my driver's license more than five years ago. I'm just someone who has thought a lot about how brain wiring impacts personal preferences and life choices. I enjoy discussing that when opportunity arises.
- baxtr 8y ago
  I went skiing with my family recently. As a gimmick we went to a nearby barn where they had a carpenter’s shop. At first I was reluctant to go. But then I got into kind of a flow when I was working on the woods, grinding. I started sweating. There I felt for the first time: we are not made to sit in front of a screen for 8 hrs. At least for some days in the week I’d love to do some physical labor.
  - marttt 8y ago
    I drifted about 2 years ago from white collar / "creative" work to forest maintenance. Not tree logging, but taking care of growing forest and planting trees. I'm in Eastern Europe, so the plan was to spend the warm season entirely outdoors and focus on "mental" work during winter when the available forestry jobs are not to my liking. (I've developed tinnitus -- constant ringing in my ears --, so I decided not to work with gas-powered brush cutters or other kinds of machinery any more. Luckily a fraction of forest maintaining can still be done using hand tools, mostly swedish or brush axes, but scythes also work well.) I'm currently mostly at home with kids, but the general feeling is that I just would not want to work indoors any more. For my preferred hand labour the wages are tiny around here (IMHO not so when you're OK working with brush cutters, although some might disagree with that). But the mental and physical balance I get from being in the forest every day, rain or shine, tends to outweigh that. So as a parent it's surely a complicated decision as to what to do after we send our youngest off to kindergarten. In particular, planting trees or cleaning treelings from weeds using a scythe could be a damn perfect job for every physically fit loner-introvert. Here's a movie about tree planting in Canada (where this is a huge industry, isn't it?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxR02N-Sauk&t=870s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxR02N-Sauk&t=870s And here's an inspiring guy, forest keeper, scythe mowing enthusiast and witty documentary film maker Simon from the UK. Yep, I want to be just like him when I grow up. If you're interested in traditional tools and manual labour in the wilderness, be sure to check out his entire Youtube channel. Great movies about scythe mower vs tractor competition etc. :) https://youtu.be/yvRJAtPWBCY?t=307 https://youtu.be/yvRJAtPWBCY?t=307 Ah, wonderful things, considering the current shitty-dirty-snowy March-like weather in Estonia.
    - metallurgy 8y ago
- Agnosco 8y ago
  I've also thought about this many times. By coincidence, my closest friends all told about similar thoughts at a gathering recently. It was interesting to hear what people wanted to do, if they wanted to change from their, now established careers. I myself would take on metalworking and/or blacksmithing. I like the idea of working with milling, threading and cutting metals as well as welding. I also think that it is very easy to be romantic about these things. It is probably better to understand how you could turn some of these things into hobbies and then get a bit of both worlds.
  - cylinder 8y ago
    Isn't metalworking pretty lucrative? I think generally you can setup a shop and make a good living.
    - ken 8y ago
      Based on my small sample of friends: no, it's really not. It used to be, but these days there's too many other options for cheap and strong materials, and places and methods to get parts made. There's definitely ways to position yourself to make good money, especially if you have connections and experience, but it's certainly not as simple as "set up a shop and make a good living".
    - xkcd-sucks 8y ago
      If you can get contract jobs for aerospace, petroleum etc. then yes. For example, short order prototyping in aerospace and repairs in petroleum. Kind of like getting a programming related job, it takes some networking and reputation. Custom work for cars/motorcycles can also be good with networking and reputation. Other than that, it's basically being the cheap mechanic that can fabricate new parts instead of buying them. Which is not good in the good-vs-evil sense, but not so lucrative.
  - cr0sh 8y ago
    > I like the idea of working with milling, threading and cutting metals as well as welding. I do this as a part of one of my hobbies (robotics). It's really not that fun: It's dirty, smelly, hot, and sometimes can be dangerous. You will get cut. You will get gouged. You will bleed. You will be burned. Not always, but it will happen occasionally. Ideally, that's all the worst that will happen. I've never worked with a metal lathe; I haven't had the need to yet. But I do have access to one. That is the one of a metal shop's tools which you need to be very respectful and mindful about being around and working with. Depending on the size of the machine (the one I have access to isn't very large), it can do everything from maim you severely, to killing you - and it won't care. It'll barely even slow down. Not trying to scare you about metal working, but realize it isn't roses, either. It can be very satisfying to make something out of metal and know you did that. But you need to understand what the price can be - even if you are careful and wearing all the necessary safety equipment. Oh - and never wear gloves or rings (or necklaces, ties, long hair, etc) around things like mills or lathes - really bad to do should things go wrong. But do wear heavy boots, denim jeans (and all natural fiber clothing period), and gloves (plus other PPE like goggles, face shield, etc) when grinding, cutting, or welding - sparks and molten slag/metal are not fun when they hit bare skin (or burn thru your sneakers - ask me how I know).
- kabouseng 8y ago
  I don't believe this is specific to software dev. I postulate that this feeling of yours is the route cause of what we call the midlife crisis. When you are young, you have all the possibilities of what to do with your life. Methaphorically all the open doors of possibility. But as you progress with your life you have to make decisions about what do you want to do, and as you walk through some doors you close most other doors. For example by choosing to become a software dev, you most certainly wont become a doctor, lawyer, cook, house builder or truck driver, although all these options were open to you a couple of years back, now those doors are mostly closed. And it is this feeling of lost possibilities that you might be feeling.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    Totally agree, and am inclined to agree it may be the root cause of many a midlife crisis. I could go back to uni, take on a ton of debt, and after retraining find few want a late fifties junior. Chances are I'd never pay off the student debts before retirement either, unless I get really lucky. A direct into the job route will probably meet just as much resistance to a mid fifties starter. Foreign Legion, Police and Air Force all think I'm too old now. That smell is from all those burnt bridges. Yet 40s and 50s are when many decide they've had enough and want something more fulfilling, find limited choice, and end up with a self employed micro business. I suspect this is not what they wished for in many cases, but just what's left.
    - maigret 8y ago
      Interesting point of view, in most of Europe you'd not get in debt at all for that. Finding a job as a beginner would be as hard though. In the age of Internet though, it's never too hard to learn something new for free. Also, you can still try another occupation during the week-ends. You get to learn and experience something new while volunteering or making additional money, and after all you either see that your existing job is better, or that you want to make a change, being trained and knowledgeable of why you want to switch.
      - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
- snarf21 8y ago
  We've all been there. I would bet that after a year of sitting in traffic, getting cut off by people texting and having to hold your pee for 6 hours for less pay that software will look pretty amazing. I think that is why it is so important for everyone to have a hobby that is not software. We all need a break from life and something to look forward to. Most devs would be happier if they just treat work as work. Turn off email and slack and all the other nonsense when you aren't at work. It can wait until tomorrow. Spend your free time taking care of you.
  - cr0sh 8y ago
    As an employed SE (been at it for 25+ years), I actually enjoy programming at home. But the key is not doing it with the idea that I will make money from what I am working on, or attempting it as some kind of "side gig". My programming at home is strictly either for my own edification, to solve a problem or provide a solution for a personal need I have, or to simply have some "fun time" playing with code and my computer. For physical stuff, I also play around with hobby-level robotics - which can be anything from small desktop junk and soldering, to building much larger contraptions at my friend's home metalworking shop (he has the tools and space I don't). There doesn't have to be a reason or "need" to turn it off at the end of the day, unless you really don't enjoy it - but I would question why you are doing a job you don't enjoy (yes, I know this is something many people struggle with; most jobs aren't enjoyable - but creative jobs should be enjoyable, at least that's a hope - then again, I've heard of people being software engineers, good at their work, who absolutely hated it, but did it only for the money).
- swsieber 8y ago
  Please not a truck driver. I get what you mean, but truck drivers are a terrible example because they are often (literally) criminally overworked.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Ha! You're talking to software professionals here.
- d-sc 8y ago
  No offense intended here. I have a commercial drivers license and have put a bit of time in driving a truck as a summer job after high school. It sucks. Society basically treats trucks as outcast from the nicer places of our communities. Truck stops are full of chemicals and unhealthy food and anything nicer is barely reachable when you are 75 feet long. 8 hours of coding with the chance of running at the end of the day is much better. I also did a bit of paid software dev after high school, looking at screens isn’t the best, but the freedom to integrate with society is well worth it. (I ended up studying mechanical engineering in college and will graduate in May)
  - burgerzzz 8y ago
    I don't know. I've been in software development professionally for over a decade now, and there are days when the money doesn't seem worth it and I look at construction workers with envy.
    - SZJX 8y ago
      A temporary escape from what you might have been a little burnt out from could be nice. Wanting to turn that into a new permanent new profession would be quite ridiculous.
    - d-sc 8y ago
      You have a fair and understandable point. Here’s my perspective as someone who has been proximate to both industries. My parents ran a construction company. One day a guy showed up for his first day of work. By virtue of the project’s schedule at that point, a trench needed to be dug 3ft wide by 5ft deep by 20 ft long. There were buried utilies nearby, thus machinery would have been risky. Therefore on Chuck’s first day of work he dug a tench by hand in the 100+ degree sun(By virtue of necessity). That’s a pretty anecdotal, albiet harsh, case. If you’re smart about riding the ups and downs you can make decent money, but as an industry it’s pretty hard on its workers. I have friends who work construction to make money during college. While I am worried someone moved the AC from 68->72, they are breaking their backs pouring cement and consuming illicit drugs to block the back pain.
superconformist 8y ago
tldr; guy did "comparative indigeneity" studies bullshit, went on an anti-zionist tweetstorm, got a job offer revoked, and litigated it. Now he's sitting on the driver's seat of a schoolbus, but also on $800,000 from a legal settlement. Just a simple man earning an honest paycheck.
- JackPoach 8y ago
  I find myself much easier to be a principled individual with $800K in the bank account than without. Give the man a break.
  - blfr 8y ago
    I find myself much easier to be a principled individual with $800K in the bank account than without. Isn't that exactly what 'superconformist said?
    - zasz 8y ago
      Don't be silly, "just a simple man" is clearly meant to be sarcastic.
- sahinabi 8y ago
  the worst tldr i've read in a while.
  - gknoy 8y ago
    I read a large chunk of it, and I didn't notice anything about asettlement -- this definitely puts a VERY different perspective on it.
    - GhostVII 8y ago
      The author provided a link in the article for the reasoning why he got fired. That link contained the controversial tweets about Israel and Gaza.
sigfubar 8y ago
I don’t know how things are in DC, but here in NYC school bus drivers are some of the worst pricks on the road. They ignore all rules, they drive like a horde of zombies is gnawing at their hams, and they habitually scare the living daylights out of the kids they’re supposed to keep safe. That the anti-Zionist degenerate ended up in this job does not surprise me one bit.
eecc 8y ago
Uh oh, I remember the story of this guy, it’s also linked in the blog article itself: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professors-angry-tweets-on-gaza-cost-him-a-job.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professo...
Ice_cream_suit 8y ago
Interesting. Good to know that he supports some minorities. Shame that he continues to be anti-Semitic in his tweets.
- PedroBatista 8y ago
  Is he against all Jews or just opposes Israel policy? I ask this because pretty much anyone who criticizes Israel is now labeled anti-Semitic
  - Sabrosas 8y ago
    "You may be too refined to say it, but I'm not: I wish all the fucking West Bank settlers would go missing." "Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible into something honorable since 1948." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    A brief read of the tweets included in the article he links to regarding his firing gives me the impression that it's the latter. In fact there is one tweet of his which references exactly your point about the deliberate confusion of anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of Israeli policy. Can't say I've looked into it extensively though.
  - torrance 8y ago
    From reading the NYTimes article [1] it seems clear he’s anti Israel/occupation/bombing and not anti semitic. The pro Israel groups that sought to oppose him getting the job didn’t try to argue that he was anti semitic either, just that he wasn’t ‘civil’ on his Twitter feed. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professors-angry-tweets-on-gaza-cost-him-a-job.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professo...
    - linkmotif 8y ago
      That’s not true and that’s not what he did. 1) you can criticize Israel all day on campus, no one will stop you. 2) you shouldn’t promote mass murder on campus, which is what SS did. Saying the population deserves mass murder because they’re evil is what he did. Fortunately that was deemed beyond the pale.
keiferski 8y ago
During and after college, I spent about four years working in a bakery. I pretty much ran the whole place - making the dough, creating the extra ingredients for pastries, running the cash register, talking to customers, and so on. At the time, it didn't seem like a great job. But now, looking back after 5+ years of staring at a screen for 8 hours a day, I miss the physicality of being a baker. I hope the next computer revolution will untether computers from a sedentary work environment.
- dmos62 8y ago
  > I hope the next computer revolution will untether computers from a sedentary work environment. I'll leave Bret Victor's website [0] here for anyone interested in continuing this train of thought. Most of his work posted there revolves around this in some way, but just to link to a specific presentation here's Humane Representation of Thought [1]. Bret Victor changed what I think of computation technology's progress and what I expect of it. I'd go as far as to say that his presentations are eye openers. [0] http://worrydream.com/ http://worrydream.com/ [1] https://vimeo.com/115154289 https://vimeo.com/115154289
  - devchix 8y ago
    Thanks for this! I had no idea who this person is, the MagicInk paper is a wonderful, animated piece of writing to be sure.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  I will never get bored of the intellectual stimulace of my job, but yes, I did start to yearn for something more physical. Having kids pretty much solved that desire for me. I'm now a full time roboticist and a part time cook, people mover, negotiator, lab manager, construction foreman, fitness coach, gym spotter, goalie, wanderer, professional wrestler, cleaner, etc. I'm surprised every week by what it's like to be a parent. I never expected it to round my life out in such a healthy way, both mentally and physically. Not just because I have offspring but because I'm doing a ton of things I haven't done in years, decades.
charliebrownau 8y ago
It seems more and more Western Males are leaving IT Education Nursing and returning to jobs outside and jobs with NO WOMEN and no soy soft offended snowflakes Loads of people are looking towards Driving courier vans Driving Trucks Driving Bus's as you get more money PER HOUR then IT/Office job with less risk off the offended sending the mob to get you fired , since they cant handle a comment that you or someone said
GarvielLoken 8y ago
Well I havn't changed career but after graduation I did start doing my hobby half-time so to speak and it atleast filled the physical world need I believe. Rampt up my BJJ, and to a lesser extend Judo, from 1-2 times a week to 4-6 times a week training so that the club was basically my second home, also started competing actively during three-four years. These days I'm dialing down on it, back to around three times a week. Started doing Cuban Salsa a year ago because of my current girlfriend, who also goes to BJJ with me. Changed job from an e-commerce which I worked for the first four years to an IT-consultant firm where I'm currently at my third assignment, changing things up. Negotiated to have two months service leave during the summer the last two years where I try to travel. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't need to change occupation, you do hobbies and try to renegotiate your conditions.
jstewartmobile 8y ago
Give HN an article about a guy being squeezed out of his job for thought-crime, and what do we do with that? Bitch about our own gilded cages for not giving us enough exercise, of course. That's how we roll baby!
- cheesymuffin 8y ago
  I like your post. Let me shoulder some of your downvotes.
  - jstewartmobile 8y ago
    Ha! Love it!
linkmotif 8y ago
Remarkable the word “Israel” appears once and “Zionism” appears 0 times in this post. I’m not a person who gets “offended” by political or even “controversial” political statements, but here’s a guy who made Farrakhan-esqe statements about Jews (not even about “zionists”) like that we are termites and need to be destroyed and stuff. Now he’s got a blog about how much life is different! Well—Good for us! People like this must be marginalized. You shouldn’t be able to just say entire populations should be exterminated. It’s just not right, even if you have legit problems with said populations. It’s bad to kill large groups of people, or ideate publicly mass homocide, it’s just not right. That’s what this guy did. If he wants “free speech” he can go on Gab but good for academia not paying for him for it. I guess he just wants to move past the whole issue, but he doesn’t mention the part where he called for mass death to zionists and Jews in general, and that feels like a bit of an omission.
- dilap 8y ago
  Where are those statements? From the NYT article, I just see tweets about Israel and Zionists. Also the tweet, "I refuse to conceptualize #Israel/#Palestine as Jewish-Arab acrimony. I am in solidarity with many Jews and in disagreement with many Arabs.".
  - linkmotif 8y ago
    “You may be too refined to say it, but I'm not: I wish all the fucking West Bank settlers would go missing." "Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible into something honorable since 1948." And many more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy Edit: I’ve been flagged! Wow!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
linkmotif 8y ago
"Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible into something honorable since 1948." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy
- sangnoir 8y ago
  A charitable interpretation of that quotation is that Zionists have transformed the definition of anti-semitism from something truly horrible (bigotry) to something the author finds honorable (criticism of Israeli government policies).
draw_down 8y ago
I’ve never seen our intrepid free speech crusaders bring up Mr. Salaita.
coleifer 8y ago
The line that expressed the author's opinion most clearly to me was this: > Public discourse doesn’t exist in a free market. I read the article as an indictment of capitalist forces, which pressure people into conformity as a path towards, ironically, (economic) freedom. The author is fighting and is in conflict. I wonder, though, if there is another way, so that freedom doesn't have to come through either blind conformity or "me against the world" conflict. There are a lot of things in our world and our culture which I don't like, yet isn't recognizing my powerless to change the world to my liking an equally valid path to freedom?
nimbius 8y ago
This article reminds me of the first time I had to get a class C (commercial) truck license. I work as a diesel engine mechanic, and in order to test our work, or diagnose problems, sometimes we drive the trucks themselves. Ive driven school buses before. School buses are the black sheep of heavy duty trucks. they need a pretty good duty cycle on the engine, and cant cost much because cash strapped states rarely chip in for stuff like tinted windows or turbos. Durability takes precedence over performance, so you have a 26,000lb vehicle up to 45ft long built on a lowest-bidder chassis. Brakes are commonly "whatever" and its somewhat rare to see jake style engine braking provided. there are no luxuries like low air alarms, TPMS, or over-angle alarms for hills so you need to be a damn good driver considering youve got up to 90 screaming kids as your cargo. they are miserable in corners, and because the rear axle is fixed the offset considerably affects your turning radius. Id rather park a 53' commercial diesel than try to back a schoolbus into a spot. TL;DR: Steve picked easily the hardest truck to drive in my opinion, other than a tanker.
jorgesborges 8y ago
This story is becoming too familiar. The extent to which our freedom of speech is being limited today is frightening. It's clear to me that universities are no longer a place for intellectuals and free-thinkers to question the rationality of society. People are being fired for writing emotional tweets. Are we that sensitive, scared, and close-minded? Is this sustainable?
- paulrd 8y ago
  This reminds me of Chomsky's critiques of universities' treatment of anti-war and anti Israeli scholarship. I recall him particularly defending Norman Finkelstein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein#Tenure_denial_and_resignation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein#Tenure_deni...
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  > our freedom of speech is being limited We have the same freedom of speech that we've always had. > Are we that sensitive, scared, and close-minded? The online community seems to be. Good thing it's just a very vocal minority. > Is this sustainable? Online: yes. IRL: it wouldn't be, but that's why it doesn't spill out into real life that often, and when it does, it's discouraged.
  - colpabar 8y ago
    > Good thing it's just a vocal minority. Are you being sarcastic? The "very vocal minority" has seemingly limitless power to ruin people's lives over words they don't like. Businesses are forced to close, professors are forced to resign. We're passed the point of being able to say "it's just the internet," and it's time we all acknowledged that.
    - Pharmakon 8y ago
      The four highest officials in Virginia just brazened out being in blackface, Steve King still has a job, and the president is... well I won’t go into it. I think you might need to recalibrate your sense of these things.
pault 8y ago
> About halfway to the lot, a ribbon of cobalt rises on the horizon; when it’s cloudy, a common occurrence in the mid-Atlantic, the darkness stays pure. The spectrum of color will change with the seasons, but now it is winter and the sun comes slowly, if it appears at all. Ugh, I'm so sick of these flowery long form articles. I had to scan through ten long paragraphs just to find what the article is about.
- driverdan 8y ago
  I read that first sentence, saw how long the scroll bar was, and clicked back. I like long form but not with this junk wasting space.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  I think it would be reasonable to include a note in the HN guidelines about not complaining about "magazine-style" writing like this. I see it over and over here, and it's really boring and trite at this point. Many people don't like more expressive forms of writing, especially the HN crowd, but it's a legitimate style which many people enjoy. Why can't people just ignore (or even flag) and move on? Actually, maybe the guidelines do eschew this complaint: Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
- mediocrejoker 8y ago
  Instead of clicking back I just started scanning the start of each paragraph until I found the one that would have been the intro in a news-style article and then I realized that the author had helpfully provided a demarcation using asterisks. That being said after explaining that he was groomed early for academia but then fired, he sort of wanders off again before really explaining how/why and that was where I gave up.
- josephpmay 8y ago
  I agree about long-form articles, but this isn’t an article, it’s a personal essay.
bronco21016 8y ago
Lots of mentions of quitting to become a truck driver. Perhaps some people should research becoming an airline pilot. The hours and travel are similar to that of a truck driver but you’re staying in hotels, have access to healthier food, and work in a generally more comfortable environment. Upfront investment and low starting pay are the main hurtles. The job itself is very rewarding in my opinion but you will need to spend 3-5 years at the bottom rungs before you start seeing financial upside. Having been in this career for some time now I know I would never even think to look back at life in a cubicle.
- zerogvt 8y ago
  There are also age limits on that career, right?
  - bronco21016 8y ago
    Mandatory retirement at 65. So I suppose you wouldn’t want to get started any later than 55 or so. The company I worked for previously hired a 64 year old. He had always dreamed of being an airline pilot and went ahead and made it happen for a year.
- eternalny1 8y ago
  For every positive story about being an airline pilot you can find one warning to stay far away. I have a CPMEL/IA and graduated Riddle (and even did a stint as ATC) but have switched to software engineering. The grass is not always greener.
  - bronco21016 8y ago
    I truly believe some people just aren’t cut out for it. 99% of people I’ve worked with that had a ‘horrific’ career complained mostly of the time away from home and schedule. It leads them to hopping around airlines trying to find the best setup and never really gaining any kind of seniority so they can get that sweet schedule. It’s fine that some people aren’t up for it but they definitely should not be in this career if they can’t handle being on the road. I would imagine trucking is similar in that regard. Don’t make the jump if you don’t truly want to live on the road. The other 1% were truly unlucky from mergers, bankruptcies, or furloughs. I imagine that happens in nearly any industry given enough time.
deleted 8y ago
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nickpsecurity 8y ago
This is a great piece. I'll highlight this as the reason I didn't go into government and corporate R&D: "there’s something profoundly liberating about leaving academe, whereupon you are no longer obliged to give a shit about fashionable thinkers, network at the planet’s most boring parties, or quantify self-worth for scurrilous committees (and whereupon you are free to ignore the latest same-old controversy), for even when you know at the time that the place is toxic, only after you exit (spiritually, not physically) and write an essay or read a novel or complete some other task without considering its relevance to the fascist gods of assessment, or its irrelevance to a gang of cynical senior colleagues, do you realize exactly how insidious and pervasive is the industry’s culture of social control." I already saw it from the outside. Being an independent researcher's main drawback is you might not make any money. We usually do it as a hobby on top of a full-time job. Having less attention, both for help and promotion, is next one. The wins are that you can do whatever you want, however you want, write it the way you like, and enjoy it as it was meant to be enjoyed. I'm probably about to transition into paid research and/or product development soon. I did thoroughly enjoy throwing my mind at hard problems for years without feeling the pressure to think and do things I didn't want to. And the parties I threw or attended weren't boring. :)
- zerogvt 8y ago
```whereupon you are no longer obliged to give a shit about fashionable thinkers, network at the planet’s most boring parties, or quantify self-worth for scurrilous committees (and whereupon you are free to ignore the latest same-old controversy), for even when you know at the time that the place is toxic ``` Same goes for most SW-dev houses/companies. What's your field of research btw? And how do you manage to muster energy for it _on_top_ of a full time job?
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  High-assurance security: https://dwheeler.com/essays/high-assurance-floss.html https://dwheeler.com/essays/high-assurance-floss.html The INFOSEC field was invented by people doing such things, they solved many root issues back in 1970's-1990's, were ignored, mainstream reinvents stuff at a trickle, and niche in CompSci and government doing high-assurance are gettimg more results than ever. I stay promoting it since our critical systems and infrastructure being bulletproof is unserved need. I also design ways to approximate it at lower cost and talent required. And it's really draining. I just do it since it's both an interesting subject that's also a social need. Seemed like right thing to do.
yardie 8y ago
Honestly, I have no idea why anyone posts anything on Twitter beyond cat and dog pics. It's simply impossible to tweet any nuanced position. Yet people continue to try. It's possible to support Israel, Palestine, 2-state solutions, etc. and not be an antisemite. It's damn hard to say that in less than 200 characters. From what I know of Salaita he was convicted of free-thought. Labeled an anti-semite. And the rest is history.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- SUr3na 8y ago
  Antisemite means "opposing people of Semitic ethnicity". Surprisingly Arabs are also Semitic people. Therefore whichever side you pick you can't be antisemitic by definition.You can be anti Zionist and oppose people based on thier actions and ideas, not their ethnicity. I saw many people using this nonsense argument that according to a paper written by some people the definition of anti Semitism is opposing Israel. This is falsely accusing people who criticize Israel and labeling them as racist.
  - bdauer 8y ago
    That's the etymology of the two roots of the word, but it's not the English definition which specifically refers to discrimination against Jews. The word is from a German term which was created by an antisemite in order to make his hate speech sound more reasonable. I say this in no way to discredit your argument against the conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism. It's possible to be critical of Zionism without being antisemitic.
- ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
  I agree with the first part, Twitter is a bad idea for anyone who deals in complexity. A teacher's job is to inform. They should inspire us to rise above our base instincts and investigate issues further. Compressing ideas into vulgar soundbites (the point of Twitter) is something teachers should be helping us avoid, not participating in. I don't think he should have been fired, but anyone who made the bumper sticker tweet below definitely doesn't deserve to be rewarded with tenure so they can become immune from criticism. >> Zionists: transforming "antisemitism" from something horrible into something honorable since 1948.#Gaza #FreePalestine
thorwasdfasdf 8y ago
I've always thought that it was almost impossible to be fired if you were tenured. But, after reading this article, I got the impression that a tenured position is a precarious one at best, that requires slavish devotion to politics to avoid getting fired. Am I missing something here?
- sahinabi 8y ago
  They hired him to be a tenured professor, but fired him before he started his job and argued that he wasn't hired yet in the first place. The lawsuit & settlement was about that.
Jun8 8y ago
This is a combination of thoughtful takes on being a school bus driver, quite an interesting topic in itself (how do you deal with the kids, traffic, etc.) and reinventing yourself in middle age in a job far afield. It also contains reminiscence and opinions of Salaita on the controversy that cost him his promised job. This second topic is a complicated one, I suggest before being quick to to decide that he was booted off wrongly for a "thought crime" or rightly because he's an ardent anti-semite one should get familiar with the controversy. At a high-level you can read: * The Wikipedia article on the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy * The NYT article from 2014: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professors-angry-tweets-on-gaza-cost-him-a-job.html * Chicago Tribune article from 2017: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-steve-salaita-academia-exit-perspec-0728-jm-20170727-story.html From there on, if the general topic piques your interest, you can branch off on one or many of the following topics, among others: * Role of Hamas and other organizations in Middle East * What is free speech - start with pg's essay : http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html * Role of twitter (and other social media in polarization of contemporary societies): E.g. is this a new thing or does it have analogues in history, e.g. French revolutionary pamphlets (if you're in Chicago, you can see the collection in Newberry https://www.newberry.org/french-pamphlets) * Jews and the Civil Right Movement in the US, how these two got disconnected, you can start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American%E2%80%93Jewish_relations, then check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_teachers%27_strike_of_1968 and the book *Ungovernable City* which covers the strike in detail * The relationship between the Left and Jewish Community: Whoa, this is a huge topic, New Yorker just recently covered it https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-new-yorker-interview/looking-at-anti-semitism-on-the-left-and-the-right-an-interview-with-deborah-e-lipstadt * Is it all about the Benjamins? Just this month US Congresswoman Ilhan Omar had to publicly apologize for *her* tweets https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/11/ilhan-omar-antisemitic-tweets-house-democrats-apology
theshadowknows 8y ago
I worked retail, later I worked in factories. I almost had my hand torn off in a machine once. I dislocated my shoulder keeping a pallet from landing on a coworker. I passed out due to exhaustion and heat unloading trucks. I had customers punch me and spit on me working at a gas station. I mopped up piss and blood and tamped down dumpsters with my own feet. Blue collar work is brutal beyond belief and I don’t plan to go back if I can do anything to keep from doing so.
ericmcer 8y ago
One thing not noted in the article is the psychological toll working a job like bus driver takes if its the peak of your professional life. Its slightly demeaning for people with well respected jobs that are intellectually demanding to step down from their position and enjoy the simplicity and directness of a job like bus driver. They will not have the weight of inadequacy that most people in low skill occupations carry.

312 points by severine 8y ago

I know, the quintessence of this article isn't about "quitting your job and do sth. totally different", but... From time to time, I feel like that. Just leave software dev behind, and become a truck driver.

aserafini 8y ago
Yes: there’s a guy who comes to the office once a week to water the plants. I regard him enviously as I’m knee-deep in a stack trace or combing logs related to a bug report.
- cylinder 8y ago
  Haha we have the same thing. Guy is so fit, has a great haircut, and an Apple Watch. He seems like the most content man in the world. This is in Australia where tradespeople often do quite well so it's not uncommon.
- cr0sh 8y ago
  My wife did this job - "office plant watering". It really isn't as great as it sounds or looks. The pay is about what you'd expect (ie - tiny). Lugging around jugs of water, trying to find a nearby working (and accessible) hose bib to fill them, or having to carry your own water in your vehicle (and hoping nothing leaks)...it was grueling work for her. The upside was you didn't have to talk to many people, not even your employer. She did the work, logged the time, and got paid. But the physical stress was insane, and has left her with more than a few issues (back and joint pain). I look at software engineering differently; when I'm down in the weeds, yeah it sucks - but I know that things could be much worse for me, for much less pay, and what I am experiencing really isn't that big of a deal. I get paid a lot of money for doing something that I find very easy to do; something that is almost second nature for me (I've been programming in some form or another for about 35 years, since I was a kid). I enjoy going into my work, I don't dread it. Many, many people would love to have that. I enjoy the fact that I do. I wish more could say the same about their own work.
ehnto 8y ago
I love software and always will, but I don't think it's the kind of job you can stagnate in happily. Like any creative endeavor. I think everyone has periods where they take a step back from code for a while, if not entirely.
- cntlzw 8y ago
  Programming is a weird kind of job. Imagine what you can do, all the possibilities. You can create something worth billions in your mind alone. On the other hand you are spending your life putting out fires. Software breaks. It always does. You day by day job is finding the flaw in the system. Not to mention that you will program other peoples requirements not the fun stuff one does at home. I started doing this with people. Debugging people. It is not fun and has started to make my life not as pleasant as it used to be.
  - onion2k 8y ago
    You can create something worth billions in your mind alone. No you can't. Every billion dollar product, or even million dollar product, is the result of a team of people doing many more things than writing code.
    - auggierose 8y ago
      Yes you can, and there are examples.
      - amelius 8y ago
        An example is not a proof that you "can" in general, because there could also be a large amount of luck involved.
        achievingApathy 8y ago
        I think what you're saying is that an example is not generally proof that just anyone can. It goes a long way in disproving that its impossible, however. There could be a large amount of luck involved in everything and we just don't know it.
jaaames 8y ago
Can anyone that has been in the industry for a significant period of time comment on this feeling? I'm 5 years deep professionally, 15 years as a hobby, and no longer enjoying software, at least in it's form consumed by a customer. Similar to a sibling poster, I'm envious of the landscaper, school teacher, or electrician. Has anyone left software and felt better off for it, or regretted it? Interested to hear any anecdotes or insight.
- pkaye 8y ago
  One of my hobby is doing small improvements around the house. I really enjoy the work that a electrician or carpenter or landscaper does. I fancy myself running one of those businesses but in reality I know the job can be grueling as you get older and the pay is not always great. Also due to major health issues, I think a desk job is the best for me. I think in reality as a developer if you get bored you should change employers and work on different problems.
  - ThePadawan 8y ago
    It's funny, but growing up as a shut-in kid into a career in software development, I think working at a desk is one of the worst parts about it.
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    Same, or possibly more extreme. I've renovated most of the rooms in my house which were in a bad state of repair. I've installed a new kitchen. Just got to finish the bathrooms. I do find that spending a weekend putting up plasterboard or tearing out a fireplace gives one a new appreciation for the mental challenges of coding.
- nf05papsjfVbc 8y ago
  Please do consider that school teachers have unappreciated jobs while they work with insufficient resources to build the future of our socieities. Just imagine "classroom control" for classrooms at different age-groups. If you feel jaded/worn-out/burnt-out by the software field, though teaching can be rewarding, please do try and understand what it entails before getting into it. Perhaps you already know all this and in that case please forgive my unsolicited advice.
34343434n 8y ago
yes, I feel this way from time to time, after 11 of years as a dev. think about becoming a mechanic, electrician, until I realize to get to the level of my current pay would take me years
Zanni 8y ago
How Starbucks Saved My Life [1] is a good read along those lines, although it's highly dependent on how much sympathy you feel for the author and his responsibility for his circumstances. I think there's a universal appeal, especially for knowledge workers, in the fantasy of living a simple life and doing tangible work with immediate benefits. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WCWUVS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WCWUVS/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
htanirs 8y ago
>> From time to time, I feel like that. Just leave software dev behind, and become a truck driver. I have the exact thoughts sometimes. And I ask myself why truck driver. Maybe it represents the opposite of software career. More work in real world vs virtual. Be outside vs stuck in cubicle. Perceived freedom and independence vs managing self / team / customer. Work is restricted to a day vs work piling up. Not carrying the work home vs being switched on always. Less expectation vs imposter syndrome casual interactions vs formal communication Truck driving as a career has its own challenges. But my mind perceives it to be a better choice. Grass always looks greener on the other side.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  And I ask myself why truck driver. If you are very visual-spatial, passively taking in scenery while driving feeds the same need as website design, basically.
  - killjoywashere 8y ago
    My cousin is a truck driver. It's mainly a miserable existence, sleeping in the cab on long haul jobs across the Great Plains. He sees his family every other week. For him it's just enough better than his previous job, which was getting shot at in Afghanistan. His dead buddies are tattooed on his arm as a reminder. If you can do what you do, and chose to drive a truck instead, I suspect he would question your judgement.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I was addressing (one factor in) why programmers might fantasize about trucking when they are feeling fed up. Presumably, if they are fantasizing about getting a commercial driver's license and driving a truck, they already drive a car. So some part of their brain likely recognizes that driving is a passive means to meet visual-spatial needs that are likely being met with more effort in some sense currently. I'm not a programmer. I also no longer drive. I gave up my car more than a decade ago and my driver's license more than five years ago. I'm just someone who has thought a lot about how brain wiring impacts personal preferences and life choices. I enjoy discussing that when opportunity arises.
baxtr 8y ago
I went skiing with my family recently. As a gimmick we went to a nearby barn where they had a carpenter’s shop. At first I was reluctant to go. But then I got into kind of a flow when I was working on the woods, grinding. I started sweating. There I felt for the first time: we are not made to sit in front of a screen for 8 hrs. At least for some days in the week I’d love to do some physical labor.
- marttt 8y ago
  I drifted about 2 years ago from white collar / "creative" work to forest maintenance. Not tree logging, but taking care of growing forest and planting trees. I'm in Eastern Europe, so the plan was to spend the warm season entirely outdoors and focus on "mental" work during winter when the available forestry jobs are not to my liking. (I've developed tinnitus -- constant ringing in my ears --, so I decided not to work with gas-powered brush cutters or other kinds of machinery any more. Luckily a fraction of forest maintaining can still be done using hand tools, mostly swedish or brush axes, but scythes also work well.) I'm currently mostly at home with kids, but the general feeling is that I just would not want to work indoors any more. For my preferred hand labour the wages are tiny around here (IMHO not so when you're OK working with brush cutters, although some might disagree with that). But the mental and physical balance I get from being in the forest every day, rain or shine, tends to outweigh that. So as a parent it's surely a complicated decision as to what to do after we send our youngest off to kindergarten. In particular, planting trees or cleaning treelings from weeds using a scythe could be a damn perfect job for every physically fit loner-introvert. Here's a movie about tree planting in Canada (where this is a huge industry, isn't it?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxR02N-Sauk&t=870s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxR02N-Sauk&t=870s And here's an inspiring guy, forest keeper, scythe mowing enthusiast and witty documentary film maker Simon from the UK. Yep, I want to be just like him when I grow up. If you're interested in traditional tools and manual labour in the wilderness, be sure to check out his entire Youtube channel. Great movies about scythe mower vs tractor competition etc. :) https://youtu.be/yvRJAtPWBCY?t=307 https://youtu.be/yvRJAtPWBCY?t=307 Ah, wonderful things, considering the current shitty-dirty-snowy March-like weather in Estonia.
  - metallurgy 8y ago
Agnosco 8y ago
I've also thought about this many times. By coincidence, my closest friends all told about similar thoughts at a gathering recently. It was interesting to hear what people wanted to do, if they wanted to change from their, now established careers. I myself would take on metalworking and/or blacksmithing. I like the idea of working with milling, threading and cutting metals as well as welding. I also think that it is very easy to be romantic about these things. It is probably better to understand how you could turn some of these things into hobbies and then get a bit of both worlds.
- cylinder 8y ago
  Isn't metalworking pretty lucrative? I think generally you can setup a shop and make a good living.
  - ken 8y ago
    Based on my small sample of friends: no, it's really not. It used to be, but these days there's too many other options for cheap and strong materials, and places and methods to get parts made. There's definitely ways to position yourself to make good money, especially if you have connections and experience, but it's certainly not as simple as "set up a shop and make a good living".
  - xkcd-sucks 8y ago
    If you can get contract jobs for aerospace, petroleum etc. then yes. For example, short order prototyping in aerospace and repairs in petroleum. Kind of like getting a programming related job, it takes some networking and reputation. Custom work for cars/motorcycles can also be good with networking and reputation. Other than that, it's basically being the cheap mechanic that can fabricate new parts instead of buying them. Which is not good in the good-vs-evil sense, but not so lucrative.
- cr0sh 8y ago
  > I like the idea of working with milling, threading and cutting metals as well as welding. I do this as a part of one of my hobbies (robotics). It's really not that fun: It's dirty, smelly, hot, and sometimes can be dangerous. You will get cut. You will get gouged. You will bleed. You will be burned. Not always, but it will happen occasionally. Ideally, that's all the worst that will happen. I've never worked with a metal lathe; I haven't had the need to yet. But I do have access to one. That is the one of a metal shop's tools which you need to be very respectful and mindful about being around and working with. Depending on the size of the machine (the one I have access to isn't very large), it can do everything from maim you severely, to killing you - and it won't care. It'll barely even slow down. Not trying to scare you about metal working, but realize it isn't roses, either. It can be very satisfying to make something out of metal and know you did that. But you need to understand what the price can be - even if you are careful and wearing all the necessary safety equipment. Oh - and never wear gloves or rings (or necklaces, ties, long hair, etc) around things like mills or lathes - really bad to do should things go wrong. But do wear heavy boots, denim jeans (and all natural fiber clothing period), and gloves (plus other PPE like goggles, face shield, etc) when grinding, cutting, or welding - sparks and molten slag/metal are not fun when they hit bare skin (or burn thru your sneakers - ask me how I know).
kabouseng 8y ago
I don't believe this is specific to software dev. I postulate that this feeling of yours is the route cause of what we call the midlife crisis. When you are young, you have all the possibilities of what to do with your life. Methaphorically all the open doors of possibility. But as you progress with your life you have to make decisions about what do you want to do, and as you walk through some doors you close most other doors. For example by choosing to become a software dev, you most certainly wont become a doctor, lawyer, cook, house builder or truck driver, although all these options were open to you a couple of years back, now those doors are mostly closed. And it is this feeling of lost possibilities that you might be feeling.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Totally agree, and am inclined to agree it may be the root cause of many a midlife crisis. I could go back to uni, take on a ton of debt, and after retraining find few want a late fifties junior. Chances are I'd never pay off the student debts before retirement either, unless I get really lucky. A direct into the job route will probably meet just as much resistance to a mid fifties starter. Foreign Legion, Police and Air Force all think I'm too old now. That smell is from all those burnt bridges. Yet 40s and 50s are when many decide they've had enough and want something more fulfilling, find limited choice, and end up with a self employed micro business. I suspect this is not what they wished for in many cases, but just what's left.
  - maigret 8y ago
    Interesting point of view, in most of Europe you'd not get in debt at all for that. Finding a job as a beginner would be as hard though. In the age of Internet though, it's never too hard to learn something new for free. Also, you can still try another occupation during the week-ends. You get to learn and experience something new while volunteering or making additional money, and after all you either see that your existing job is better, or that you want to make a change, being trained and knowledgeable of why you want to switch.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
snarf21 8y ago
We've all been there. I would bet that after a year of sitting in traffic, getting cut off by people texting and having to hold your pee for 6 hours for less pay that software will look pretty amazing. I think that is why it is so important for everyone to have a hobby that is not software. We all need a break from life and something to look forward to. Most devs would be happier if they just treat work as work. Turn off email and slack and all the other nonsense when you aren't at work. It can wait until tomorrow. Spend your free time taking care of you.
- cr0sh 8y ago
  As an employed SE (been at it for 25+ years), I actually enjoy programming at home. But the key is not doing it with the idea that I will make money from what I am working on, or attempting it as some kind of "side gig". My programming at home is strictly either for my own edification, to solve a problem or provide a solution for a personal need I have, or to simply have some "fun time" playing with code and my computer. For physical stuff, I also play around with hobby-level robotics - which can be anything from small desktop junk and soldering, to building much larger contraptions at my friend's home metalworking shop (he has the tools and space I don't). There doesn't have to be a reason or "need" to turn it off at the end of the day, unless you really don't enjoy it - but I would question why you are doing a job you don't enjoy (yes, I know this is something many people struggle with; most jobs aren't enjoyable - but creative jobs should be enjoyable, at least that's a hope - then again, I've heard of people being software engineers, good at their work, who absolutely hated it, but did it only for the money).
swsieber 8y ago
Please not a truck driver. I get what you mean, but truck drivers are a terrible example because they are often (literally) criminally overworked.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Ha! You're talking to software professionals here.
d-sc 8y ago
No offense intended here. I have a commercial drivers license and have put a bit of time in driving a truck as a summer job after high school. It sucks. Society basically treats trucks as outcast from the nicer places of our communities. Truck stops are full of chemicals and unhealthy food and anything nicer is barely reachable when you are 75 feet long. 8 hours of coding with the chance of running at the end of the day is much better. I also did a bit of paid software dev after high school, looking at screens isn’t the best, but the freedom to integrate with society is well worth it. (I ended up studying mechanical engineering in college and will graduate in May)
- burgerzzz 8y ago
  I don't know. I've been in software development professionally for over a decade now, and there are days when the money doesn't seem worth it and I look at construction workers with envy.
  - SZJX 8y ago
    A temporary escape from what you might have been a little burnt out from could be nice. Wanting to turn that into a new permanent new profession would be quite ridiculous.
  - d-sc 8y ago
    You have a fair and understandable point. Here’s my perspective as someone who has been proximate to both industries. My parents ran a construction company. One day a guy showed up for his first day of work. By virtue of the project’s schedule at that point, a trench needed to be dug 3ft wide by 5ft deep by 20 ft long. There were buried utilies nearby, thus machinery would have been risky. Therefore on Chuck’s first day of work he dug a tench by hand in the 100+ degree sun(By virtue of necessity). That’s a pretty anecdotal, albiet harsh, case. If you’re smart about riding the ups and downs you can make decent money, but as an industry it’s pretty hard on its workers. I have friends who work construction to make money during college. While I am worried someone moved the AC from 68->72, they are breaking their backs pouring cement and consuming illicit drugs to block the back pain.

superconformist 8y ago

tldr; guy did "comparative indigeneity" studies bullshit, went on an anti-zionist tweetstorm, got a job offer revoked, and litigated it. Now he's sitting on the driver's seat of a schoolbus, but also on $800,000 from a legal settlement. Just a simple man earning an honest paycheck.

JackPoach 8y ago
I find myself much easier to be a principled individual with $800K in the bank account than without. Give the man a break.
- blfr 8y ago
  I find myself much easier to be a principled individual with $800K in the bank account than without. Isn't that exactly what 'superconformist said?
  - zasz 8y ago
    Don't be silly, "just a simple man" is clearly meant to be sarcastic.
sahinabi 8y ago
the worst tldr i've read in a while.
- gknoy 8y ago
  I read a large chunk of it, and I didn't notice anything about asettlement -- this definitely puts a VERY different perspective on it.
  - GhostVII 8y ago
    The author provided a link in the article for the reasoning why he got fired. That link contained the controversial tweets about Israel and Gaza.

sigfubar 8y ago

I don’t know how things are in DC, but here in NYC school bus drivers are some of the worst pricks on the road. They ignore all rules, they drive like a horde of zombies is gnawing at their hams, and they habitually scare the living daylights out of the kids they’re supposed to keep safe. That the anti-Zionist degenerate ended up in this job does not surprise me one bit.

eecc 8y ago

Uh oh, I remember the story of this guy, it’s also linked in the blog article itself: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professors-angry-tweets-on-gaza-cost-him-a-job.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professo...

Ice_cream_suit 8y ago

Interesting. Good to know that he supports some minorities. Shame that he continues to be anti-Semitic in his tweets.

PedroBatista 8y ago
Is he against all Jews or just opposes Israel policy? I ask this because pretty much anyone who criticizes Israel is now labeled anti-Semitic
- Sabrosas 8y ago
  "You may be too refined to say it, but I'm not: I wish all the fucking West Bank settlers would go missing." "Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible into something honorable since 1948." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  A brief read of the tweets included in the article he links to regarding his firing gives me the impression that it's the latter. In fact there is one tweet of his which references exactly your point about the deliberate confusion of anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of Israeli policy. Can't say I've looked into it extensively though.
- torrance 8y ago
  From reading the NYTimes article [1] it seems clear he’s anti Israel/occupation/bombing and not anti semitic. The pro Israel groups that sought to oppose him getting the job didn’t try to argue that he was anti semitic either, just that he wasn’t ‘civil’ on his Twitter feed. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professors-angry-tweets-on-gaza-cost-him-a-job.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professo...
  - linkmotif 8y ago
    That’s not true and that’s not what he did. 1) you can criticize Israel all day on campus, no one will stop you. 2) you shouldn’t promote mass murder on campus, which is what SS did. Saying the population deserves mass murder because they’re evil is what he did. Fortunately that was deemed beyond the pale.

keiferski 8y ago

During and after college, I spent about four years working in a bakery. I pretty much ran the whole place - making the dough, creating the extra ingredients for pastries, running the cash register, talking to customers, and so on. At the time, it didn't seem like a great job. But now, looking back after 5+ years of staring at a screen for 8 hours a day, I miss the physicality of being a baker. I hope the next computer revolution will untether computers from a sedentary work environment.

dmos62 8y ago
> I hope the next computer revolution will untether computers from a sedentary work environment. I'll leave Bret Victor's website [0] here for anyone interested in continuing this train of thought. Most of his work posted there revolves around this in some way, but just to link to a specific presentation here's Humane Representation of Thought [1]. Bret Victor changed what I think of computation technology's progress and what I expect of it. I'd go as far as to say that his presentations are eye openers. [0] http://worrydream.com/ http://worrydream.com/ [1] https://vimeo.com/115154289 https://vimeo.com/115154289
- devchix 8y ago
  Thanks for this! I had no idea who this person is, the MagicInk paper is a wonderful, animated piece of writing to be sure.
Waterluvian 8y ago
I will never get bored of the intellectual stimulace of my job, but yes, I did start to yearn for something more physical. Having kids pretty much solved that desire for me. I'm now a full time roboticist and a part time cook, people mover, negotiator, lab manager, construction foreman, fitness coach, gym spotter, goalie, wanderer, professional wrestler, cleaner, etc. I'm surprised every week by what it's like to be a parent. I never expected it to round my life out in such a healthy way, both mentally and physically. Not just because I have offspring but because I'm doing a ton of things I haven't done in years, decades.

charliebrownau 8y ago

It seems more and more Western Males are leaving IT Education Nursing and returning to jobs outside and jobs with NO WOMEN and no soy soft offended snowflakes Loads of people are looking towards Driving courier vans Driving Trucks Driving Bus's as you get more money PER HOUR then IT/Office job with less risk off the offended sending the mob to get you fired , since they cant handle a comment that you or someone said

GarvielLoken 8y ago

Well I havn't changed career but after graduation I did start doing my hobby half-time so to speak and it atleast filled the physical world need I believe. Rampt up my BJJ, and to a lesser extend Judo, from 1-2 times a week to 4-6 times a week training so that the club was basically my second home, also started competing actively during three-four years. These days I'm dialing down on it, back to around three times a week. Started doing Cuban Salsa a year ago because of my current girlfriend, who also goes to BJJ with me. Changed job from an e-commerce which I worked for the first four years to an IT-consultant firm where I'm currently at my third assignment, changing things up. Negotiated to have two months service leave during the summer the last two years where I try to travel. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't need to change occupation, you do hobbies and try to renegotiate your conditions.

jstewartmobile 8y ago

Give HN an article about a guy being squeezed out of his job for thought-crime, and what do we do with that? Bitch about our own gilded cages for not giving us enough exercise, of course. That's how we roll baby!

cheesymuffin 8y ago
I like your post. Let me shoulder some of your downvotes.
- jstewartmobile 8y ago
  Ha! Love it!

linkmotif 8y ago

Remarkable the word “Israel” appears once and “Zionism” appears 0 times in this post. I’m not a person who gets “offended” by political or even “controversial” political statements, but here’s a guy who made Farrakhan-esqe statements about Jews (not even about “zionists”) like that we are termites and need to be destroyed and stuff. Now he’s got a blog about how much life is different! Well—Good for us! People like this must be marginalized. You shouldn’t be able to just say entire populations should be exterminated. It’s just not right, even if you have legit problems with said populations. It’s bad to kill large groups of people, or ideate publicly mass homocide, it’s just not right. That’s what this guy did. If he wants “free speech” he can go on Gab but good for academia not paying for him for it. I guess he just wants to move past the whole issue, but he doesn’t mention the part where he called for mass death to zionists and Jews in general, and that feels like a bit of an omission.

dilap 8y ago
Where are those statements? From the NYT article, I just see tweets about Israel and Zionists. Also the tweet, "I refuse to conceptualize #Israel/#Palestine as Jewish-Arab acrimony. I am in solidarity with many Jews and in disagreement with many Arabs.".
- linkmotif 8y ago
  “You may be too refined to say it, but I'm not: I wish all the fucking West Bank settlers would go missing." "Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible into something honorable since 1948." And many more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy Edit: I’ve been flagged! Wow!
deleted 8y ago
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linkmotif 8y ago

"Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible into something honorable since 1948." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy

sangnoir 8y ago
A charitable interpretation of that quotation is that Zionists have transformed the definition of anti-semitism from something truly horrible (bigotry) to something the author finds honorable (criticism of Israeli government policies).

draw_down 8y ago

I’ve never seen our intrepid free speech crusaders bring up Mr. Salaita.

coleifer 8y ago

The line that expressed the author's opinion most clearly to me was this: > Public discourse doesn’t exist in a free market. I read the article as an indictment of capitalist forces, which pressure people into conformity as a path towards, ironically, (economic) freedom. The author is fighting and is in conflict. I wonder, though, if there is another way, so that freedom doesn't have to come through either blind conformity or "me against the world" conflict. There are a lot of things in our world and our culture which I don't like, yet isn't recognizing my powerless to change the world to my liking an equally valid path to freedom?

nimbius 8y ago

This article reminds me of the first time I had to get a class C (commercial) truck license. I work as a diesel engine mechanic, and in order to test our work, or diagnose problems, sometimes we drive the trucks themselves. Ive driven school buses before. School buses are the black sheep of heavy duty trucks. they need a pretty good duty cycle on the engine, and cant cost much because cash strapped states rarely chip in for stuff like tinted windows or turbos. Durability takes precedence over performance, so you have a 26,000lb vehicle up to 45ft long built on a lowest-bidder chassis. Brakes are commonly "whatever" and its somewhat rare to see jake style engine braking provided. there are no luxuries like low air alarms, TPMS, or over-angle alarms for hills so you need to be a damn good driver considering youve got up to 90 screaming kids as your cargo. they are miserable in corners, and because the rear axle is fixed the offset considerably affects your turning radius. Id rather park a 53' commercial diesel than try to back a schoolbus into a spot. TL;DR: Steve picked easily the hardest truck to drive in my opinion, other than a tanker.

jorgesborges 8y ago

This story is becoming too familiar. The extent to which our freedom of speech is being limited today is frightening. It's clear to me that universities are no longer a place for intellectuals and free-thinkers to question the rationality of society. People are being fired for writing emotional tweets. Are we that sensitive, scared, and close-minded? Is this sustainable?

paulrd 8y ago
This reminds me of Chomsky's critiques of universities' treatment of anti-war and anti Israeli scholarship. I recall him particularly defending Norman Finkelstein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein#Tenure_denial_and_resignation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein#Tenure_deni...
stronglikedan 8y ago
> our freedom of speech is being limited We have the same freedom of speech that we've always had. > Are we that sensitive, scared, and close-minded? The online community seems to be. Good thing it's just a very vocal minority. > Is this sustainable? Online: yes. IRL: it wouldn't be, but that's why it doesn't spill out into real life that often, and when it does, it's discouraged.
- colpabar 8y ago
  > Good thing it's just a vocal minority. Are you being sarcastic? The "very vocal minority" has seemingly limitless power to ruin people's lives over words they don't like. Businesses are forced to close, professors are forced to resign. We're passed the point of being able to say "it's just the internet," and it's time we all acknowledged that.
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    The four highest officials in Virginia just brazened out being in blackface, Steve King still has a job, and the president is... well I won’t go into it. I think you might need to recalibrate your sense of these things.

pault 8y ago

> About halfway to the lot, a ribbon of cobalt rises on the horizon; when it’s cloudy, a common occurrence in the mid-Atlantic, the darkness stays pure. The spectrum of color will change with the seasons, but now it is winter and the sun comes slowly, if it appears at all. Ugh, I'm so sick of these flowery long form articles. I had to scan through ten long paragraphs just to find what the article is about.

driverdan 8y ago
I read that first sentence, saw how long the scroll bar was, and clicked back. I like long form but not with this junk wasting space.
deleted 8y ago
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ryanwaggoner 8y ago
I think it would be reasonable to include a note in the HN guidelines about not complaining about "magazine-style" writing like this. I see it over and over here, and it's really boring and trite at this point. Many people don't like more expressive forms of writing, especially the HN crowd, but it's a legitimate style which many people enjoy. Why can't people just ignore (or even flag) and move on? Actually, maybe the guidelines do eschew this complaint: Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
mediocrejoker 8y ago
Instead of clicking back I just started scanning the start of each paragraph until I found the one that would have been the intro in a news-style article and then I realized that the author had helpfully provided a demarcation using asterisks. That being said after explaining that he was groomed early for academia but then fired, he sort of wanders off again before really explaining how/why and that was where I gave up.
josephpmay 8y ago
I agree about long-form articles, but this isn’t an article, it’s a personal essay.

bronco21016 8y ago

Lots of mentions of quitting to become a truck driver. Perhaps some people should research becoming an airline pilot. The hours and travel are similar to that of a truck driver but you’re staying in hotels, have access to healthier food, and work in a generally more comfortable environment. Upfront investment and low starting pay are the main hurtles. The job itself is very rewarding in my opinion but you will need to spend 3-5 years at the bottom rungs before you start seeing financial upside. Having been in this career for some time now I know I would never even think to look back at life in a cubicle.

zerogvt 8y ago
There are also age limits on that career, right?
- bronco21016 8y ago
  Mandatory retirement at 65. So I suppose you wouldn’t want to get started any later than 55 or so. The company I worked for previously hired a 64 year old. He had always dreamed of being an airline pilot and went ahead and made it happen for a year.
eternalny1 8y ago
For every positive story about being an airline pilot you can find one warning to stay far away. I have a CPMEL/IA and graduated Riddle (and even did a stint as ATC) but have switched to software engineering. The grass is not always greener.
- bronco21016 8y ago
  I truly believe some people just aren’t cut out for it. 99% of people I’ve worked with that had a ‘horrific’ career complained mostly of the time away from home and schedule. It leads them to hopping around airlines trying to find the best setup and never really gaining any kind of seniority so they can get that sweet schedule. It’s fine that some people aren’t up for it but they definitely should not be in this career if they can’t handle being on the road. I would imagine trucking is similar in that regard. Don’t make the jump if you don’t truly want to live on the road. The other 1% were truly unlucky from mergers, bankruptcies, or furloughs. I imagine that happens in nearly any industry given enough time.

deleted 8y ago

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nickpsecurity 8y ago

This is a great piece. I'll highlight this as the reason I didn't go into government and corporate R&D: "there’s something profoundly liberating about leaving academe, whereupon you are no longer obliged to give a shit about fashionable thinkers, network at the planet’s most boring parties, or quantify self-worth for scurrilous committees (and whereupon you are free to ignore the latest same-old controversy), for even when you know at the time that the place is toxic, only after you exit (spiritually, not physically) and write an essay or read a novel or complete some other task without considering its relevance to the fascist gods of assessment, or its irrelevance to a gang of cynical senior colleagues, do you realize exactly how insidious and pervasive is the industry’s culture of social control." I already saw it from the outside. Being an independent researcher's main drawback is you might not make any money. We usually do it as a hobby on top of a full-time job. Having less attention, both for help and promotion, is next one. The wins are that you can do whatever you want, however you want, write it the way you like, and enjoy it as it was meant to be enjoyed. I'm probably about to transition into paid research and/or product development soon. I did thoroughly enjoy throwing my mind at hard problems for years without feeling the pressure to think and do things I didn't want to. And the parties I threw or attended weren't boring. :)

zerogvt 8y ago
```whereupon you are no longer obliged to give a shit about fashionable thinkers, network at the planet’s most boring parties, or quantify self-worth for scurrilous committees (and whereupon you are free to ignore the latest same-old controversy), for even when you know at the time that the place is toxic ``` Same goes for most SW-dev houses/companies. What's your field of research btw? And how do you manage to muster energy for it _on_top_ of a full time job?
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  High-assurance security: https://dwheeler.com/essays/high-assurance-floss.html https://dwheeler.com/essays/high-assurance-floss.html The INFOSEC field was invented by people doing such things, they solved many root issues back in 1970's-1990's, were ignored, mainstream reinvents stuff at a trickle, and niche in CompSci and government doing high-assurance are gettimg more results than ever. I stay promoting it since our critical systems and infrastructure being bulletproof is unserved need. I also design ways to approximate it at lower cost and talent required. And it's really draining. I just do it since it's both an interesting subject that's also a social need. Seemed like right thing to do.

yardie 8y ago

Honestly, I have no idea why anyone posts anything on Twitter beyond cat and dog pics. It's simply impossible to tweet any nuanced position. Yet people continue to try. It's possible to support Israel, Palestine, 2-state solutions, etc. and not be an antisemite. It's damn hard to say that in less than 200 characters. From what I know of Salaita he was convicted of free-thought. Labeled an anti-semite. And the rest is history.

deleted 8y ago
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SUr3na 8y ago
Antisemite means "opposing people of Semitic ethnicity". Surprisingly Arabs are also Semitic people. Therefore whichever side you pick you can't be antisemitic by definition.You can be anti Zionist and oppose people based on thier actions and ideas, not their ethnicity. I saw many people using this nonsense argument that according to a paper written by some people the definition of anti Semitism is opposing Israel. This is falsely accusing people who criticize Israel and labeling them as racist.
- bdauer 8y ago
  That's the etymology of the two roots of the word, but it's not the English definition which specifically refers to discrimination against Jews. The word is from a German term which was created by an antisemite in order to make his hate speech sound more reasonable. I say this in no way to discredit your argument against the conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism. It's possible to be critical of Zionism without being antisemitic.
ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
I agree with the first part, Twitter is a bad idea for anyone who deals in complexity. A teacher's job is to inform. They should inspire us to rise above our base instincts and investigate issues further. Compressing ideas into vulgar soundbites (the point of Twitter) is something teachers should be helping us avoid, not participating in. I don't think he should have been fired, but anyone who made the bumper sticker tweet below definitely doesn't deserve to be rewarded with tenure so they can become immune from criticism. >> Zionists: transforming "antisemitism" from something horrible into something honorable since 1948.#Gaza #FreePalestine

thorwasdfasdf 8y ago

I've always thought that it was almost impossible to be fired if you were tenured. But, after reading this article, I got the impression that a tenured position is a precarious one at best, that requires slavish devotion to politics to avoid getting fired. Am I missing something here?

sahinabi 8y ago
They hired him to be a tenured professor, but fired him before he started his job and argued that he wasn't hired yet in the first place. The lawsuit & settlement was about that.

Jun8 8y ago

This is a combination of thoughtful takes on being a school bus driver, quite an interesting topic in itself (how do you deal with the kids, traffic, etc.) and reinventing yourself in middle age in a job far afield. It also contains reminiscence and opinions of Salaita on the controversy that cost him his promised job. This second topic is a complicated one, I suggest before being quick to to decide that he was booted off wrongly for a "thought crime" or rightly because he's an ardent anti-semite one should get familiar with the controversy. At a high-level you can read: * The Wikipedia article on the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy * The NYT article from 2014: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/world/middleeast/professors-angry-tweets-on-gaza-cost-him-a-job.html * Chicago Tribune article from 2017: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-steve-salaita-academia-exit-perspec-0728-jm-20170727-story.html From there on, if the general topic piques your interest, you can branch off on one or many of the following topics, among others: * Role of Hamas and other organizations in Middle East * What is free speech - start with pg's essay : http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html * Role of twitter (and other social media in polarization of contemporary societies): E.g. is this a new thing or does it have analogues in history, e.g. French revolutionary pamphlets (if you're in Chicago, you can see the collection in Newberry https://www.newberry.org/french-pamphlets) * Jews and the Civil Right Movement in the US, how these two got disconnected, you can start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American%E2%80%93Jewish_relations, then check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_teachers%27_strike_of_1968 and the book *Ungovernable City* which covers the strike in detail * The relationship between the Left and Jewish Community: Whoa, this is a huge topic, New Yorker just recently covered it https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-new-yorker-interview/looking-at-anti-semitism-on-the-left-and-the-right-an-interview-with-deborah-e-lipstadt * Is it all about the Benjamins? Just this month US Congresswoman Ilhan Omar had to publicly apologize for *her* tweets https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/11/ilhan-omar-antisemitic-tweets-house-democrats-apology

theshadowknows 8y ago

I worked retail, later I worked in factories. I almost had my hand torn off in a machine once. I dislocated my shoulder keeping a pallet from landing on a coworker. I passed out due to exhaustion and heat unloading trucks. I had customers punch me and spit on me working at a gas station. I mopped up piss and blood and tamped down dumpsters with my own feet. Blue collar work is brutal beyond belief and I don’t plan to go back if I can do anything to keep from doing so.

ericmcer 8y ago

One thing not noted in the article is the psychological toll working a job like bus driver takes if its the peak of your professional life. Its slightly demeaning for people with well respected jobs that are intellectually demanding to step down from their position and enjoy the simplicity and directness of a job like bus driver. They will not have the weight of inadequacy that most people in low skill occupations carry.