9 ms·

I found during my ten years in Plan9 it was the most usable OS I have experienced in my 35 years of computing. My only problem with it is every other platform i

I found during my ten years in Plan9 it was the most usable OS I have experienced in my 35 years of computing. My only problem with it is every other platform is now ruined because I gnash my teeth and say "would have been easy in Plan9".

jolmg 8y ago
> my ten years in Plan9 Using it primarily? I would find that very difficult with today's dependence on the web, especially with how complex the web has become today.
- adriveatrain 8y ago
  yes, and I was a website devops during that time. that's my desktop in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor)
  - gcb0 8y ago
    what did you browsed the web with? or as relevant at the time: how did you communicate via msn/aim/yim/icq? I hope you're not one of those condescending Unix types that only had online interactions on irc :P
    - jolmg 8y ago
      No need to be rude, and not everyone uses chat software. Googling for the web browser options online, it seems Links[1] and Abaco[2] are the best options right now. There are others listed in Wikipedia[3]. I wonder if there's someone out there that has put in the effort to improve their Plan9 environment. I wonder how difficult it might be to port something like Chromium, Firefox, or Webkit to Plan9. Maybe it's not as tremendously difficult as I imagine it, but maybe I'm dreaming thinking this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(web_browser) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaco_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaco_(web_browser) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Plan_9_programs#Web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Plan_9_programs#Web_br...
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Plan 9's improvement is called Inferno, by the same devs.
        adriveatrain 8y ago
        It's not Plan9's improvement. It was never designed that way. It's a stand alone product. It has nowhere near the richness of Plan9. Source: I worked as an Inferno developer.
        jolmg 8y ago
        > I worked as an Inferno developer. Ah man, that's really cool. So what's your favorite operating system? Is there one you find ideal or do you like different ones for their different trade-offs? What do you wish was the most widely used OS in the world? I ask these questions thinking of the OS foundations and ignoring that OSes like Plan9 and Inferno are lacking many things only found in more popular OSes by virtue of being popular.
        adriveatrain 8y ago
        Plan9 was far superior as a developer's system. It's text based tools are the best, bar none. But really it owes that to Project Oberon. "Everything is a file" as an abstraction enables you to build really powerful through composition. e.g. running TCP/IP over a serial connection just by mounting files in certain places. Your end user program doesn't need to know anything about networking, it just reads from files. this is an irc bot written in shell script http://proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc http://proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc It's not perfect, of course, it had problems with throughput - we were forever discussing at conferences how to improve the protocol to implement streaming. I describe it as a racing car, not everyone can drive it, you need to work to keep it going, you might kill yourself but when you're out front, it feels amazing.
        rhabarba 8y ago
        > Your end user program doesn't need to know anything about networking, it just reads from files. Basically, suckless's ii seems to imitate that.
    - adriveatrain 8y ago
      the internet is not the web yep, IRC, if I was at the computer I had a window with FreeNode and QuakeNET. And a condescending Plan9 user, "Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad", as we say.
      - jstewartmobile 8y ago
        10 years without a browser? Your sanity levels must be off the charts!
        adriveatrain 8y ago
        Plan9 has multiple native web browsers, Mothra, Abaco & Charon. You could run Opera in Linux emulation mode and also use VNC to another machine. Did you see the part where I was a website devops for 10 years using Plan9?
        jolmg 8y ago
        > You could run Opera in Linux emulation mode and also use VNC to another machine. What? There's a Linux emulation mode in Plan9? O_o How well does it work? Could I run anything Linux in Plan9? EDIT: Woah. https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/Linux_emulation/index.html https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/Linux_emulation/index.html
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      What's wrong with IRC? IRC is great. It's so simple you can knock together a decent client of your own in an afternoon.
      - IshKebab 8y ago
        Netsplits, hilarious lack of security (nickserv identify uses plain text passwords sent over an unencrypted TCP connection), you can't retrieve channel history, no support for threads, images, basic markdown formatting... Shall I go on?
        darkpuma 8y ago
        Very little of that is a problem in practice, and proprietary systems like AIM had more than their fair share of problems too. >no support for threads That one's just wrong. You can make a threaded client if you want one, although it's not totally clear why you would since the CPU load of IRC is going to be very low in any reasonable situation. Edit: Oh I see, threads as in forum threads.... just open a new channel. Otherwise, the concept seems to map poorly to ephemeral real time discussion. This is the first I've ever heard of AIM,etc of having forum threads.
        DrPizza 8y ago
        threaded messaging, man. threaded messaging. ffs.
        IshKebab 8y ago
        Slack-style threads work very well for real-time discussion. It's far easier to follow a channel with them than without. Opening a new channel wouldn't work for fairly obvious reasons (nobody would be in it, you'd effectively have to do it for every single message, etc.).
        pexaizix 8y ago
        Nickserv identify can be encrypted from your client to the services server if the network supports it. (SSL between you and all servers) No channel history, no threads, and no images are features. There's formatting: bold/italic/underline and colours.

jolmg 8y ago

> my ten years in Plan9 Using it primarily? I would find that very difficult with today's dependence on the web, especially with how complex the web has become today.

adriveatrain 8y ago
yes, and I was a website devops during that time. that's my desktop in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor)
- gcb0 8y ago
  what did you browsed the web with? or as relevant at the time: how did you communicate via msn/aim/yim/icq? I hope you're not one of those condescending Unix types that only had online interactions on irc :P
  - jolmg 8y ago
    No need to be rude, and not everyone uses chat software. Googling for the web browser options online, it seems Links[1] and Abaco[2] are the best options right now. There are others listed in Wikipedia[3]. I wonder if there's someone out there that has put in the effort to improve their Plan9 environment. I wonder how difficult it might be to port something like Chromium, Firefox, or Webkit to Plan9. Maybe it's not as tremendously difficult as I imagine it, but maybe I'm dreaming thinking this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(web_browser) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaco_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaco_(web_browser) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Plan_9_programs#Web_browsers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Plan_9_programs#Web_br...
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Plan 9's improvement is called Inferno, by the same devs.
      - adriveatrain 8y ago
        It's not Plan9's improvement. It was never designed that way. It's a stand alone product. It has nowhere near the richness of Plan9. Source: I worked as an Inferno developer.
        jolmg 8y ago
        > I worked as an Inferno developer. Ah man, that's really cool. So what's your favorite operating system? Is there one you find ideal or do you like different ones for their different trade-offs? What do you wish was the most widely used OS in the world? I ask these questions thinking of the OS foundations and ignoring that OSes like Plan9 and Inferno are lacking many things only found in more popular OSes by virtue of being popular.
        adriveatrain 8y ago
        Plan9 was far superior as a developer's system. It's text based tools are the best, bar none. But really it owes that to Project Oberon. "Everything is a file" as an abstraction enables you to build really powerful through composition. e.g. running TCP/IP over a serial connection just by mounting files in certain places. Your end user program doesn't need to know anything about networking, it just reads from files. this is an irc bot written in shell script http://proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc http://proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc It's not perfect, of course, it had problems with throughput - we were forever discussing at conferences how to improve the protocol to implement streaming. I describe it as a racing car, not everyone can drive it, you need to work to keep it going, you might kill yourself but when you're out front, it feels amazing.
        rhabarba 8y ago
        > Your end user program doesn't need to know anything about networking, it just reads from files. Basically, suckless's ii seems to imitate that.
  - adriveatrain 8y ago
    the internet is not the web yep, IRC, if I was at the computer I had a window with FreeNode and QuakeNET. And a condescending Plan9 user, "Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad", as we say.
    - jstewartmobile 8y ago
      10 years without a browser? Your sanity levels must be off the charts!
      - adriveatrain 8y ago
        Plan9 has multiple native web browsers, Mothra, Abaco & Charon. You could run Opera in Linux emulation mode and also use VNC to another machine. Did you see the part where I was a website devops for 10 years using Plan9?
        jolmg 8y ago
        > You could run Opera in Linux emulation mode and also use VNC to another machine. What? There's a Linux emulation mode in Plan9? O_o How well does it work? Could I run anything Linux in Plan9? EDIT: Woah. https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/Linux_emulation/index.html https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/Linux_emulation/index.html
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    What's wrong with IRC? IRC is great. It's so simple you can knock together a decent client of your own in an afternoon.
    - IshKebab 8y ago
      Netsplits, hilarious lack of security (nickserv identify uses plain text passwords sent over an unencrypted TCP connection), you can't retrieve channel history, no support for threads, images, basic markdown formatting... Shall I go on?
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        Very little of that is a problem in practice, and proprietary systems like AIM had more than their fair share of problems too. >no support for threads That one's just wrong. You can make a threaded client if you want one, although it's not totally clear why you would since the CPU load of IRC is going to be very low in any reasonable situation. Edit: Oh I see, threads as in forum threads.... just open a new channel. Otherwise, the concept seems to map poorly to ephemeral real time discussion. This is the first I've ever heard of AIM,etc of having forum threads.
        DrPizza 8y ago
        threaded messaging, man. threaded messaging. ffs.
        IshKebab 8y ago
        Slack-style threads work very well for real-time discussion. It's far easier to follow a channel with them than without. Opening a new channel wouldn't work for fairly obvious reasons (nobody would be in it, you'd effectively have to do it for every single message, etc.).
      - pexaizix 8y ago
        Nickserv identify can be encrypted from your client to the services server if the network supports it. (SSL between you and all servers) No channel history, no threads, and no images are features. There's formatting: bold/italic/underline and colours.