10 ms·

Flight to China turned back after airline forgets to remove Taiwan reference

95 points by ilamont 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Symbiote 8y ago
Are any airlines treating PR China similarly, by not referring to PR China as a country either?
- ghayes 8y ago
  This was the US viewpoint on China for a very long time.
lisachu 8y ago
It’s 2019. I think we can all admit that Taiwan is a real country, whether China likes it or not.
- TheChaplain 8y ago
  You can and a lot do, but if you want to have any business with China then you have to do it the way they want it done.
  - quicklime 8y ago
    Not just business, but if a country wants diplomatic relations with mainland China, then it needs to not recognize Taiwan as a country.
- plugger 8y ago
  Yea nah. In theory I agree with you. In practice I don't believe Taiwan has much time left on the clock. My expectation is that sometime in the 2020s Taiwan will be Crimea'd.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-with-china/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-wi... > Chinese commanders fear they may be forced into armed contest with an enemy that is better trained, better motivated, and better prepared for the rigors of warfare than troops the PLA could throw against them. A cross-strait war looks far less like an inevitable victory for China than it does a staggeringly risky gamble. ... > Easton estimates that Taiwanese, American, and Japanese leaders will know that the PLA is preparing for a cross-strait war more than 60 days before hostilities begin. They will know for certain that an invasion will happen more than 30 days before the first missiles are fired. This will give the Taiwanese ample time to move much of their command and control infrastructure into hardened mountain tunnels, move their fleet out of vulnerable ports, detain suspected agents and intelligence operatives, litter the ocean with sea mines, disperse and camouflage army units across the country, put the economy on war footing, and distribute weapons to Taiwan’s 2.5 million reservists. > There are only 13 beaches on Taiwan’s western coast that the PLA could possibly land at. Each of these has already been prepared for a potential conflict. Long underground tunnels—complete with hardened, subterranean supply depots—crisscross the landing sites. The berm of each beach has been covered with razor-leaf plants. Chemical treatment plants are common in many beach towns—meaning that invaders must prepare for the clouds of toxic gas any indiscriminate saturation bombing on their part will release. This is how things stand in times of peace.
    - adventured 8y ago
      I don't disagree with the war assessment, it makes reasonable points. It doesn't consider the very plausible scenario where Taiwan chooses not to fight (or chooses not to fight for very long). Instead they choose capitulation as an ideal decision to spare the enormous destruction they'd suffer, so as to keep their relatively high standard of living intact. Among nations with at least 10m people, Taiwan ranks around #21 in GDP per capita with a very respectable $25k. They've built something nice for themselves over a long, difficult climb. China can play a long-term game of decimation, spanning years. They don't have to invade short-term, they can flatten Taiwan with non-stop bombing, terror-inspiring hits (when is the next air raid going to go off?!?), wait them out until inevitable capitulation. It's about long-term territorial gain and the national premise of unifying greater China, they can easily spare the loss of economic output from Taiwan's devastation. Just 15 years ago Taiwan would have been a huge share of Chinese output if unified; today that's no longer true and China is increasing the gap by the day. Who's going to stop the stand-off rain of missiles and bombing that can go on indefinitely against Taiwan? The people eventually give up, China has no need to invade to win a war. They'll approach it as a hundred plus year project as needed. The only thing that might change that style of thinking, is if Xi needs to prop up his position (through military adventure, gaining prestige from reclaiming Taiwan), which may be eroded if China's economy falters.
- gambiting 8y ago
  Doesn't matter. I work at a company that releases software there and we have to remove Taiwan as an option for a country when setting up your account or the product simply won't be allowed to be sold in China. Our personal views on the subject don't matter.
  - devoply 8y ago
    We in the West should not tolerate this sort of behavior. I am sure if we wanted to we could force them not to do this by threatening them with sanctions on certain things.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      The "West" has priced in a lot of economic growth into its debt. They are in no position to threaten China with sanctions, which could reduce trade. Need to keep those 10%+ returns coming for the underfunded pension funds. It couldn't even do anything about Russia and Crimea, much less China.
  - prewett 8y ago
    There are things more important than money. Maybe the China market isn't worth sacrificing one's values for. It's not like they want to you to succeed in their market, anyway. And if the company is willing to sacrifice its values, then clearly those weren't its actual values.
    - chrischen 8y ago
      What values are those? The value of treating China as the enemy simply because? "The position of PRC is that the ROC and PRC are two different factions in the Chinese Civil War, which never legally ended. Therefore the PRC claims that both factions belong to the same sovereign country—China. Since, as per the PRC, Taiwan's sovereignty belongs to China, the PRC's government and supporters believe that the secession of Taiwan should be agreed upon by all 1.3 billion Chinese citizens instead of just the 23 million residents of Taiwan.[15] Furthermore, the position of PRC is that UN General Assembly Resolution 2758, which states "Recognizing that the representatives of the Government of the People's Republic of China are the only lawful representatives of China to the United Nations", means that the PRC is recognized as having the sovereignty of all of China, including Taiwan." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan Basically a bunch of the wealthy class fled to Taiwan, claimed the land, also claimed all of China and Mongolia (to this day), yet denied citizenship to the billions of Chinese people on the mainland (only overseas/wealthy Chinese were allowed Republic of China citizenship).
- cjhopman 8y ago
  That's an interesting position. It then follows that you believe we should consider the Crimean Peninsula as properly part of Russia?
  - dingaling 8y ago
    I don't see how that follows. Taiwan has been self-governing for 70 years. If Kosovo could be classified as a nation after a few weeks of independence it's only hypocrisy to deny the same to Taiwan.
    - goblin89 8y ago
      Thought experiment: imagine that during the communist revolution in old Russia, the non-communist elites fled to Kosovo. Subsequently, USSR claims that Kosovo is part of it, while Kosovo’s claim is, fundamentally, to the entire territory of Russia. That, from my understanding, has been the historic position of Taiwan vs. China, and why this conflict, while not causing a lot of violence now, could be less straightforward to resolve than a claim of an ethnicity to a geographic area. In the above alternative reality, could Kosovo be recognized as a separate entity counter to USSR’s desires? Maybe but the question doesn’t make much sense in the first place, since that (being a separate territory) would be almost the opposite of what Kosovo wanted.
    - akvadrako 8y ago
      So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? You might like the idea, but it's not commonly held. For one thing it encourages armed invasions against weaker nations.
      - pjc50 8y ago
        > So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? This is how the United States claims to exist, by the way.
- triplesec 8y ago
  Spot the PRC PR army account created just for this HN post
  - cjhopman 8y ago
    You realize that you are replying to a freshly made account that is spreading the ROC position, don't you?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - triplesec 8y ago
      Looks like I misread the post, thinking it said Taiwan was not a country. Not quite as terrible but still not ideal, freshly-created accounts for such.
- grecy 8y ago
  This kind of thing happens in a few places in the world. If you go into Morocco with a map on your vehicle that shows Western Sahara as a separate country, you'll have a hell of a time with the Moroccan police/immigration. I met people that were detained for 5 hours because of it. Morocco want everyone in the world to believe Western Sahara is simply part of Morocco. I cut that part off my map before I got there. I'm told same story for the border in the East between Egypt and Sudan. Egypt want you to believe it's a straight line, Sudan want you to believe it goes up a bit (making Sudan bigger). Again, I met people that had problems with this.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  Even the Taiwanese government doesn't claim they are a separate country from mainland China; they both are say they're the rightful rulers over all China. It looks a lot like an internal dispute and I don't think the rest of the world should be meddling in their affairs.
  - mb_72 8y ago
    Nice in theory, but China goes out of it's way to force it's viewpoint on others outside of China and Taiwan (eg political interference in Australia, propaganda distribution in Australia, the whole South China Sea debacle where China actively tries to prevent ships navigating international waters, debt-trap loans to various Pacific and other nations etc etc) . The relationship between Taiwan and China is just one aspect of this, and you better believe there will be some kind of military action taken to defend Taiwan if China decides to go that way, something even more destabilising to the region. So, just 'staying out of it' and silent is not really an optimal option, IMO.
- dmurray 8y ago
  Taiwan (officially the Republic of China) don't agree that Taiwan is a real country either. The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels. "Admitting" Taiwan is a "real country" seems kind of sensible, but it's not compatible with the narrative of either the PRC or the ROC, and it's completely understandable that you shouldn't formally recognize as a nation anyone making such a ridiculous claim.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    > The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels. > it's completely understandable that you shouldn't formally recognize as a nation anyone making such a ridiculous claim. I've heard more ridiculous claims. As a matter of history, this is completely correct. It's just that the rebels have really entrenched themselves. This position is fundamentally identical to the position of a king-in-exile. Sometimes they made it back home. Sometimes they didn't.
    - Markoff 8y ago
      except they are not technically in exile, they are just in different province of same country
  - dis-sys 8y ago
    > The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels. According to the same government in Taiwan, Mongolia is not an independent country, it is a part of "the Republic of China". See its official map here [1]. [1] http://www.chinayouth.org.hk/China/rocmap.html http://www.chinayouth.org.hk/China/rocmap.html
  - ddeck 8y ago
    It is indeed a somewhat ridiculous claim, but domestic constitutional restrictions aside, the enactment of the Anti-Secession Law in the PRC in 2005 has made it challenging for the ROC to claim that they are instead an independent country. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Secession_Law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Secession_Law
- taneq 8y ago
  But if you do that, you've always been at war with EastAsia.
photoguy112 8y ago
If only every airline would stop flights into China... see how quickly they acknowledge Taiwan as a country.
- vkou 8y ago
  If everyone didn't come to work tomorrow, <any political reform that you think is impossible> would happen overnight. Good luck getting everyone on board.
  - ImaCake 8y ago
    This is exactly what a strike is. It sometimes works.
  - albru123 8y ago
    That's exactly how Velvet revolution in Czech republic in 1989 happened by the way...
    - saiya-jin 8y ago
      Not at all. People were protesting (already for few years in fact), but if the government would decide to use military to suppress them, they would succeed easily. Army declared 100% support of the government. I still think CIA had its hands in the support of the opposition (that's exactly the type of work agency is supposed to do), but for a change it lead to something positive (and I am pretty sure they were not sure it won't end up in civil war like Yugoslavia). Why government basically folded without resistance while actually holding the upper hand was explained as an attempt to avoid civil war. The divisive line wouldn't be through religions, regions, classes but through generations - fathers against sons, young wanting a change. So sanity luckily prevailed. Central/east european slavic nations are just not that bloodthirsty, long experience of being subjugated under foreign powers (austro-hungarian empire in this case).
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    Look at France and how much the Yellow Vest protests and their precursors achieved. The French have managed to keep government from enacting a lot of neoliberal crap.
alainchabat 8y ago
Talking about Taiwan, they're trying really hard to attract foreign talents. (one big reason is that China is poaching all the talents here, but this is an other story). If you're interested, check their Gold Card Permit. It's a visa+redisent card allowing you to stay and work for anyone there up to 3years. The only requirement is to justify of a salary of 160k NTD/month(~USD 5210/month), anywhere in the world, if you don't earn that, try the skills application[1]. And about the article, they are now requesting feedbacks from the public for the next immigration bill [2], that will make even easier to apply fo the visa. [1] https://foreigntalentact.ndc.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=128B875DE9CBEBE3&s=0FCDB188C74F69A0 https://foreigntalentact.ndc.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=128B875DE9C... [2] https://join.gov.tw/policies/detail/1b688f9c-5f05-47ce-ab56-10820643a38a https://join.gov.tw/policies/detail/1b688f9c-5f05-47ce-ab56-...
SCdF 8y ago
For those of you who are not New Zealanders or familiar with its news landscape, Stuff is half a rung above The Daily Mail or The Express or whatever. I urge you to read other sources. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/12/air-new-zealand-flights-u-turn-sparks-claims-of-china-tensions https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/12/air-new-zealan... is a slower paced and less click baity look at the situation (which includes links to Stuff's claims): > “This issue relates to a particular aircraft which is not yet certified to operate to China but was unfortunately assigned to operate our Shanghai flight on Saturday night,” the spokesperson said. You can believe them or not, but my experience has led me to believe nearly anyone over Stuff.
marapuru 8y ago
Offtopic: Why does the website show me 4 similar images of aircraft from the airline. What's the purpose of this? Filling the empty news report?
Simulacra 8y ago
Can we just go ahead and recognize Taiwan as an independent, sovereign nation? This childish game of China's has gone on long enough.
- Sacho 8y ago
  Does Taiwan want to be recognized as an independent, sovereign nation? As far as I'm aware their claim is that they are the legitimate Chinese government.
  - tivert 8y ago
    > Does Taiwan want to be recognized as an independent, sovereign nation? Yes, probably. The current government is pro-independence, and I think the majority of the people are as well. As this point, the PRC is the party that's most strongly against an independent Taiwan. > As far as I'm aware their claim is that they are the legitimate Chinese government. Officially, yes, but it's very complicated. In the mid-20th century they were firmly committed to that idea, but now they mainly pay lip service to it in order to walk a very fine line with regards to the PRC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus
  - realitygrill 8y ago
    Formal deviation from that posture would immediately provoke war from China. Otherwise, it looks like pretty clear picture. The population identifies as (Taiwanese && not Chinese) at ~70-95%. The Sunflower movement, the election of the DPP and formation of the New Power Party, the Tsai administration's unprecedented defiance towards China.. all point the same direction, not to mention recent calls for independence-oriented referendums. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jnylander/2015/02/14/strong-support-for-independence-in-taiwan/#3c2c7498281d https://www.forbes.com/sites/jnylander/2015/02/14/strong-sup... https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/616083178/born-independent-taiwan-s-defiant-new-generation-is-coming-of-age https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/616083178/born-independent-ta... https://international.thenewslens.com/article/113537 https://international.thenewslens.com/article/113537

95 points by ilamont 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Symbiote 8y ago

Are any airlines treating PR China similarly, by not referring to PR China as a country either?

ghayes 8y ago
This was the US viewpoint on China for a very long time.

lisachu 8y ago

It’s 2019. I think we can all admit that Taiwan is a real country, whether China likes it or not.

TheChaplain 8y ago
You can and a lot do, but if you want to have any business with China then you have to do it the way they want it done.
- quicklime 8y ago
  Not just business, but if a country wants diplomatic relations with mainland China, then it needs to not recognize Taiwan as a country.
plugger 8y ago
Yea nah. In theory I agree with you. In practice I don't believe Taiwan has much time left on the clock. My expectation is that sometime in the 2020s Taiwan will be Crimea'd.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-with-china/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-wi... > Chinese commanders fear they may be forced into armed contest with an enemy that is better trained, better motivated, and better prepared for the rigors of warfare than troops the PLA could throw against them. A cross-strait war looks far less like an inevitable victory for China than it does a staggeringly risky gamble. ... > Easton estimates that Taiwanese, American, and Japanese leaders will know that the PLA is preparing for a cross-strait war more than 60 days before hostilities begin. They will know for certain that an invasion will happen more than 30 days before the first missiles are fired. This will give the Taiwanese ample time to move much of their command and control infrastructure into hardened mountain tunnels, move their fleet out of vulnerable ports, detain suspected agents and intelligence operatives, litter the ocean with sea mines, disperse and camouflage army units across the country, put the economy on war footing, and distribute weapons to Taiwan’s 2.5 million reservists. > There are only 13 beaches on Taiwan’s western coast that the PLA could possibly land at. Each of these has already been prepared for a potential conflict. Long underground tunnels—complete with hardened, subterranean supply depots—crisscross the landing sites. The berm of each beach has been covered with razor-leaf plants. Chemical treatment plants are common in many beach towns—meaning that invaders must prepare for the clouds of toxic gas any indiscriminate saturation bombing on their part will release. This is how things stand in times of peace.
  - adventured 8y ago
    I don't disagree with the war assessment, it makes reasonable points. It doesn't consider the very plausible scenario where Taiwan chooses not to fight (or chooses not to fight for very long). Instead they choose capitulation as an ideal decision to spare the enormous destruction they'd suffer, so as to keep their relatively high standard of living intact. Among nations with at least 10m people, Taiwan ranks around #21 in GDP per capita with a very respectable $25k. They've built something nice for themselves over a long, difficult climb. China can play a long-term game of decimation, spanning years. They don't have to invade short-term, they can flatten Taiwan with non-stop bombing, terror-inspiring hits (when is the next air raid going to go off?!?), wait them out until inevitable capitulation. It's about long-term territorial gain and the national premise of unifying greater China, they can easily spare the loss of economic output from Taiwan's devastation. Just 15 years ago Taiwan would have been a huge share of Chinese output if unified; today that's no longer true and China is increasing the gap by the day. Who's going to stop the stand-off rain of missiles and bombing that can go on indefinitely against Taiwan? The people eventually give up, China has no need to invade to win a war. They'll approach it as a hundred plus year project as needed. The only thing that might change that style of thinking, is if Xi needs to prop up his position (through military adventure, gaining prestige from reclaiming Taiwan), which may be eroded if China's economy falters.
gambiting 8y ago
Doesn't matter. I work at a company that releases software there and we have to remove Taiwan as an option for a country when setting up your account or the product simply won't be allowed to be sold in China. Our personal views on the subject don't matter.
- devoply 8y ago
  We in the West should not tolerate this sort of behavior. I am sure if we wanted to we could force them not to do this by threatening them with sanctions on certain things.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    The "West" has priced in a lot of economic growth into its debt. They are in no position to threaten China with sanctions, which could reduce trade. Need to keep those 10%+ returns coming for the underfunded pension funds. It couldn't even do anything about Russia and Crimea, much less China.
- prewett 8y ago
  There are things more important than money. Maybe the China market isn't worth sacrificing one's values for. It's not like they want to you to succeed in their market, anyway. And if the company is willing to sacrifice its values, then clearly those weren't its actual values.
  - chrischen 8y ago
    What values are those? The value of treating China as the enemy simply because? "The position of PRC is that the ROC and PRC are two different factions in the Chinese Civil War, which never legally ended. Therefore the PRC claims that both factions belong to the same sovereign country—China. Since, as per the PRC, Taiwan's sovereignty belongs to China, the PRC's government and supporters believe that the secession of Taiwan should be agreed upon by all 1.3 billion Chinese citizens instead of just the 23 million residents of Taiwan.[15] Furthermore, the position of PRC is that UN General Assembly Resolution 2758, which states "Recognizing that the representatives of the Government of the People's Republic of China are the only lawful representatives of China to the United Nations", means that the PRC is recognized as having the sovereignty of all of China, including Taiwan." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan Basically a bunch of the wealthy class fled to Taiwan, claimed the land, also claimed all of China and Mongolia (to this day), yet denied citizenship to the billions of Chinese people on the mainland (only overseas/wealthy Chinese were allowed Republic of China citizenship).
cjhopman 8y ago
That's an interesting position. It then follows that you believe we should consider the Crimean Peninsula as properly part of Russia?
- dingaling 8y ago
  I don't see how that follows. Taiwan has been self-governing for 70 years. If Kosovo could be classified as a nation after a few weeks of independence it's only hypocrisy to deny the same to Taiwan.
  - goblin89 8y ago
    Thought experiment: imagine that during the communist revolution in old Russia, the non-communist elites fled to Kosovo. Subsequently, USSR claims that Kosovo is part of it, while Kosovo’s claim is, fundamentally, to the entire territory of Russia. That, from my understanding, has been the historic position of Taiwan vs. China, and why this conflict, while not causing a lot of violence now, could be less straightforward to resolve than a claim of an ethnicity to a geographic area. In the above alternative reality, could Kosovo be recognized as a separate entity counter to USSR’s desires? Maybe but the question doesn’t make much sense in the first place, since that (being a separate territory) would be almost the opposite of what Kosovo wanted.
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? You might like the idea, but it's not commonly held. For one thing it encourages armed invasions against weaker nations.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      > So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? This is how the United States claims to exist, by the way.
triplesec 8y ago
Spot the PRC PR army account created just for this HN post
- cjhopman 8y ago
  You realize that you are replying to a freshly made account that is spreading the ROC position, don't you?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - triplesec 8y ago
    Looks like I misread the post, thinking it said Taiwan was not a country. Not quite as terrible but still not ideal, freshly-created accounts for such.
grecy 8y ago
This kind of thing happens in a few places in the world. If you go into Morocco with a map on your vehicle that shows Western Sahara as a separate country, you'll have a hell of a time with the Moroccan police/immigration. I met people that were detained for 5 hours because of it. Morocco want everyone in the world to believe Western Sahara is simply part of Morocco. I cut that part off my map before I got there. I'm told same story for the border in the East between Egypt and Sudan. Egypt want you to believe it's a straight line, Sudan want you to believe it goes up a bit (making Sudan bigger). Again, I met people that had problems with this.
akvadrako 8y ago
Even the Taiwanese government doesn't claim they are a separate country from mainland China; they both are say they're the rightful rulers over all China. It looks a lot like an internal dispute and I don't think the rest of the world should be meddling in their affairs.
- mb_72 8y ago
  Nice in theory, but China goes out of it's way to force it's viewpoint on others outside of China and Taiwan (eg political interference in Australia, propaganda distribution in Australia, the whole South China Sea debacle where China actively tries to prevent ships navigating international waters, debt-trap loans to various Pacific and other nations etc etc) . The relationship between Taiwan and China is just one aspect of this, and you better believe there will be some kind of military action taken to defend Taiwan if China decides to go that way, something even more destabilising to the region. So, just 'staying out of it' and silent is not really an optimal option, IMO.
dmurray 8y ago
Taiwan (officially the Republic of China) don't agree that Taiwan is a real country either. The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels. "Admitting" Taiwan is a "real country" seems kind of sensible, but it's not compatible with the narrative of either the PRC or the ROC, and it's completely understandable that you shouldn't formally recognize as a nation anyone making such a ridiculous claim.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels. > it's completely understandable that you shouldn't formally recognize as a nation anyone making such a ridiculous claim. I've heard more ridiculous claims. As a matter of history, this is completely correct. It's just that the rebels have really entrenched themselves. This position is fundamentally identical to the position of a king-in-exile. Sometimes they made it back home. Sometimes they didn't.
  - Markoff 8y ago
    except they are not technically in exile, they are just in different province of same country
- dis-sys 8y ago
  > The official position of the government of Taiwan is that all of China is one country, whose rightful government is currently based on the island of Taiwan, but whose land is 99% occupied by Maoist rebels. According to the same government in Taiwan, Mongolia is not an independent country, it is a part of "the Republic of China". See its official map here [1]. [1] http://www.chinayouth.org.hk/China/rocmap.html http://www.chinayouth.org.hk/China/rocmap.html
- ddeck 8y ago
  It is indeed a somewhat ridiculous claim, but domestic constitutional restrictions aside, the enactment of the Anti-Secession Law in the PRC in 2005 has made it challenging for the ROC to claim that they are instead an independent country. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Secession_Law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Secession_Law
taneq 8y ago
But if you do that, you've always been at war with EastAsia.

photoguy112 8y ago

If only every airline would stop flights into China... see how quickly they acknowledge Taiwan as a country.

vkou 8y ago
If everyone didn't come to work tomorrow, <any political reform that you think is impossible> would happen overnight. Good luck getting everyone on board.
- ImaCake 8y ago
  This is exactly what a strike is. It sometimes works.
- albru123 8y ago
  That's exactly how Velvet revolution in Czech republic in 1989 happened by the way...
  - saiya-jin 8y ago
    Not at all. People were protesting (already for few years in fact), but if the government would decide to use military to suppress them, they would succeed easily. Army declared 100% support of the government. I still think CIA had its hands in the support of the opposition (that's exactly the type of work agency is supposed to do), but for a change it lead to something positive (and I am pretty sure they were not sure it won't end up in civil war like Yugoslavia). Why government basically folded without resistance while actually holding the upper hand was explained as an attempt to avoid civil war. The divisive line wouldn't be through religions, regions, classes but through generations - fathers against sons, young wanting a change. So sanity luckily prevailed. Central/east european slavic nations are just not that bloodthirsty, long experience of being subjugated under foreign powers (austro-hungarian empire in this case).
- mschuster91 8y ago
  Look at France and how much the Yellow Vest protests and their precursors achieved. The French have managed to keep government from enacting a lot of neoliberal crap.

alainchabat 8y ago

Talking about Taiwan, they're trying really hard to attract foreign talents. (one big reason is that China is poaching all the talents here, but this is an other story). If you're interested, check their Gold Card Permit. It's a visa+redisent card allowing you to stay and work for anyone there up to 3years. The only requirement is to justify of a salary of 160k NTD/month(~USD 5210/month), anywhere in the world, if you don't earn that, try the skills application[1]. And about the article, they are now requesting feedbacks from the public for the next immigration bill [2], that will make even easier to apply fo the visa. [1] https://foreigntalentact.ndc.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=128B875DE9CBEBE3&s=0FCDB188C74F69A0 https://foreigntalentact.ndc.gov.tw/en/cp.aspx?n=128B875DE9C... [2] https://join.gov.tw/policies/detail/1b688f9c-5f05-47ce-ab56-10820643a38a https://join.gov.tw/policies/detail/1b688f9c-5f05-47ce-ab56-...

SCdF 8y ago

For those of you who are not New Zealanders or familiar with its news landscape, Stuff is half a rung above The Daily Mail or The Express or whatever. I urge you to read other sources. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/12/air-new-zealand-flights-u-turn-sparks-claims-of-china-tensions https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/12/air-new-zealan... is a slower paced and less click baity look at the situation (which includes links to Stuff's claims): > “This issue relates to a particular aircraft which is not yet certified to operate to China but was unfortunately assigned to operate our Shanghai flight on Saturday night,” the spokesperson said. You can believe them or not, but my experience has led me to believe nearly anyone over Stuff.

marapuru 8y ago

Offtopic: Why does the website show me 4 similar images of aircraft from the airline. What's the purpose of this? Filling the empty news report?

Simulacra 8y ago

Can we just go ahead and recognize Taiwan as an independent, sovereign nation? This childish game of China's has gone on long enough.

Sacho 8y ago
Does Taiwan want to be recognized as an independent, sovereign nation? As far as I'm aware their claim is that they are the legitimate Chinese government.
- tivert 8y ago
  > Does Taiwan want to be recognized as an independent, sovereign nation? Yes, probably. The current government is pro-independence, and I think the majority of the people are as well. As this point, the PRC is the party that's most strongly against an independent Taiwan. > As far as I'm aware their claim is that they are the legitimate Chinese government. Officially, yes, but it's very complicated. In the mid-20th century they were firmly committed to that idea, but now they mainly pay lip service to it in order to walk a very fine line with regards to the PRC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus
- realitygrill 8y ago
  Formal deviation from that posture would immediately provoke war from China. Otherwise, it looks like pretty clear picture. The population identifies as (Taiwanese && not Chinese) at ~70-95%. The Sunflower movement, the election of the DPP and formation of the New Power Party, the Tsai administration's unprecedented defiance towards China.. all point the same direction, not to mention recent calls for independence-oriented referendums. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jnylander/2015/02/14/strong-support-for-independence-in-taiwan/#3c2c7498281d https://www.forbes.com/sites/jnylander/2015/02/14/strong-sup... https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/616083178/born-independent-taiwan-s-defiant-new-generation-is-coming-of-age https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/616083178/born-independent-ta... https://international.thenewslens.com/article/113537 https://international.thenewslens.com/article/113537