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I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a social safety net where the working class people on my bus talk about their vacations. Maybe if the "favored class" Americans took the bus or went to the laundromat like I did for years they'd want poor people to do well too.

aantix 8y ago
Without incentives, there is no innovation. And if everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, what’s the incentive to work harder? Seeing your neighbor put in a third of the effort and produce the same economic result is demoralizing.
- stetrain 8y ago
  Do you think that in the US that your effort put in is always reflected in your economic result? That those with lower economic results are only those who put in less effort than their neighbor?
- bluntfang 8y ago
  Did your incentives create the system or did the system create you incentives? I think that's a worthwhile thought to reflect on.
- cagenut 8y ago
  you may be driven by spite and jealousy, but thats you buddy, don't project it on the rest of us.
- anthony_romeo 8y ago
  I don’t think the poster above suggested that everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, so I’m not sure why you made that leap
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    It’s a standard technique to stop the discussion. As soon as someone mentions inequality just shout “socialism” and “incentives “. Never mind that nobody argues that everybody should get exactly the same but the question is how much more of the pie the top should get and whether their share should keep increasing.
    - aantix 8y ago
      You have access to “the top” through resourcefulness and risk taking. But if one is not inclined to be that type, I’m not sure what ensures them to the rewards of those willing to do so?
      - unclebucknasty 8y ago
        >You have access to “the top” through resourcefulness and risk taking You forgot generational wealth. In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. So, it's doubtful that poor people's problem is that they just don't take enough risks.
        donaldknuth123 8y ago
        >In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. Who would downvote this, the data isn't even remotely controversial. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/economists-your-parents-are-more-important-than-ever/283301/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/economi...
        chosenbreed37 8y ago
        > In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. Interesting...I've always thought of the US as being more of a meritocracy than the UK and Europe in general. I mean that is what the American dream is all about right?
- na85 8y ago
  Are you suggesting that there is no middle ground between barbaric US-style capitalism and forced redistribution of wealth?
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    the barbaric US already has forced redistribution of wealth.
- normal_man 8y ago
  I think the idea that free-market capitalism drives innovation is not something you can take for granted at all. How many companies making copycat apps that serve no purpose or complete bullshit like Juicero get millions in funding?
  - anonuser123456 8y ago
    You literally gave an example for why free-market capitalism supports innovation; e.g. the product was stupid and the market rejected it.
    - kamarg 8y ago
      The market rejecting a product has nothing to do with innovation. It's people saying I can't afford this or I don't value this at the price you're selling it at, or even I don't like the politics of someone that works for you. But it says nothing about if a product is innovative or not.
      - nybble41 8y ago
        Innovation includes factors like actually being able to manufacture the product at a price people are willing to pay. If something is worth at most $10, coming up with a novel way to do it for less than $10 is innovative; coming up with a way to do it for $1000 is just wasting time. It's easy to come up with crazy, impractical ideas. The essence of innovation is turning those ideas into sustainable, marketable, and thus profitable products.
- arandr0x 8y ago
  I just think people who come in late at the party because their kid was sick and they're mentally ill and they live way out in the middle of the country and there's no pie left should at least get a couple apples or something.
  - wincy 8y ago
    My kid is disabled and I have severe anxiety and suffered depression. I live right in the middle of the US. I didn’t start my tech career until 28 because of all that, but I’m doing ok. I live in a big house with good schools. From what I’ve gathered of non-US (European) tech jobs, I’d never have gotten an opportunity to work as a programmer because I never got a bachelors degree. Maybe it isn’t like that everywhere, but it feels good that a high school dropout can make 6 figures and live in a 2000 square foot house and easily support two kids and a stay at home wife. I’d also likely never have learned to control my issues and gotten proper treatment if I hadn’t been left almost homeless when my family kicked me out for dropping out of college. As long as things were “good enough”, I poured my heart and soul into noble ventures like my World of Warcraft career (300 days played)! and League of Legends. I know I’m not everyone, in fact I’m likely an exceptional case, none of my friends who grew up similarly to me ended up achieving what I have, but if the safety net was too comfortable I doubt I’d have ever felt the need to climb out of it once I fell into it. I’m personally glad to live in the USA despite its flaws.
    - arandr0x 8y ago
      It's great that you were able to do that, and I've been to Europe (not where the country I was referring to is located) and I agree with you about the degree. That said, it's just emotional on my part like I said in the OP. Yeah I knew people who were poor and who probably spent their entire life since that time doing drugs and collecting their assistance checks. (And to be fair I knew people who were rich and probably spent their entire life since that time doing drugs and collecting their monthly allowance. Both are far from the norm of the rich/poor people. They're just specific examples of not caring much about your life beyond it going on.) I prefer to live in a world where five hundred thousand people are sitting on their asses doing nothing passing the seconds till their death through their own choices than in a world where fifty thousand people are running ragged feeling their bodies waste away not knowing where their time goes through the choices of people who just wanted a nicer lawn. The first world seems like it has more happiness per capita plus the outcome of each is a result of things like effort. The second world seems like it belongs in a SF story about the unchosen ones.
- Temasik 8y ago
  >>incentives >>linus torvalds
- Pulcinella 8y ago
  This is a pretty negative outlook on humanity. People do things for reasons other than making money. Also seeing your boss put in a third the effort and produce 10 times the paycheck is also demoralizing...
  - aantix 8y ago
    Of course they do. They’re called hobbies. But do they take massive risks without potential massive reward? A lot wouldn’t. Unless they’re under the rule of a dictator and their life is threatened. That’s an incentive.
    - elliekelly 8y ago
      Wouldn't? Or can't given the lack of safety nets? If the worst-case scenario is starting over perhaps the risk isn't so "massive." But when the worst-case scenario is starving then it's certainly a massive risk.
    - lghh 8y ago
      Most people who can take "massive risks" end up, at worst, in the same situation as the average American if they fail. The average American, on the other hand, can't take those risks at all because they could end up homeless or with mountains of medical debt. Reducing how far you can fall would allow for more risks to be taken.
  - criley2 8y ago
    Seeing your boss do it teaches you to become the boss. Seeing your neighbor do it teaches you to switch jobs and work 1/3 as hard. The reason this doesn't work is the same incentives people are discussing. If there are high-paying easy jobs, people will demand them and theoretically the wages will fall until demand for the job tapers off. All of this is a bit unfair though, because "having a social safety net where poor people can have vacations and a happy life" is a lot different than the myopic, mean-spirited conservative reply of "but my neighbor is a lazy jerk who makes more than me!"
  - PakG1 8y ago
    Temper this with the understanding that many workers don't have a good view of what their boss actually does and just assume that their boss puts in a third of the effort, when in fact he might put in much much more and the situation may also be difficult to fathom. https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3156692 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3156692
- unclebucknasty 8y ago
  Why does every conversation about social safety nets or a more equitable distribution of wealth involve a rebuttal by one group that goes directly to fulminant communism, the likes of which has never existed? And, how does that same group--that is supposedly so concerned about fairness--see as fair, a status quo which favors capital over labor to an untenable degree?
  - FussyZeus 8y ago
    Because of internalized anti-Russia propaganda. If the person is young enough to have not been around during the Cold War, they just internalized it from their parents instead of the Government.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    It’s just a technique. Don’t allow for nuance but take everything to the extreme and the discussion is closed.
- RobertoG 8y ago
  Well, then, surely, most of the innovation is coming from the poorest people.
- emptyfile 8y ago
  Ah yes, because any critique of the american system must mean that the poster supports full on communism.
- ragebol 8y ago
  But does that incentive need to be so huge? Would innovation not happen anymore when the incentive was reduced to say 1%, 10% or 25% etc? My motivation for doing what I do (which I'd classify as innovative) is not (just) the money. The money is nice too, but I don't think I could work in e.g. finance because I like technology and developing new stuff.
  - tomjen3 8y ago
    If I didn't get paid I would still be writing code, and a good deal more complicated, but I probably wouldn't care to make the output something users needed. As for reducing the incentives, that is already done quite heavily: the US income tax about 1/3. With that you should be able to create a very effective safety line, it is not the successfuls fault it is pissed away on political corruption and a wasteful war on drugs/minorities.
  - anonuser123456 8y ago
    >but I don't think I could work in e.g. finance because I like technology and developing new stuff. Right, most people don't want to work in finance. They do so because of the money. And generally financial CEOs/CFOs are smart enough to only pay workers what they have to. So the incentives are probably priced appropriately. "Innovation" always takes a ton of muck work that has very little glory. I work at a chip company. For every engineer doing cutting edge work, you have 10 people doing very unsexy support tasks that are 100% necessary. These are roles people do because they pay well, not because they are interesting.
- donaldknuth123 8y ago
  What is the point of innovation without progress? So San Francisco can house dozens of billionaires while also facing an astonishing homelessness crisis? You can create all the apps and gadgets you want but if you don't improve peoples lives or in fact actively hurt them what exactly are you achieving besides personal enrichment?
- ikurei 8y ago
  > And if everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, what’s the incentive to work harder? Huge strawman. Who's arguing for total and absolute equality of our outcomes? I live in one of those "safety net" countries. We aren't all entitled to the same share of the pie, it's just that hard-working people don't have to go hungry or work 2 jobs just to get by, or at least not that often. People can get a very good and valued education without going into debt, and cancer doesn't make you go poor. I get a greater share of the pie than most of my friends, because I was wise at choosing degree, and worked harder at it, and also I was lucky enough to be born with some mild gifts. But when friend's parents get sick, the families don't have to go into debt to get a great treatment. I can't be expected to know how the economy and society will change, and whether they will leave me stranded after a bubble bursts or something. We can't all be great economists; not that they get it right either. I'll work my ass off to avoid that, but I'm glad to know my compatriots have my back (to some extent), as I have theirs now.
- laurentl 8y ago
  This is a bit of a strawman argument: the parent post does not claim that everyone should have the same share of the pie, but that one should get a minimal share rather than nothing.
- cmsonger 8y ago
  > Seeing your neighbor put in a third of the effort and produce the same economic result is demoralizing. Sorry to hear you are neighbors with a hedge fund manager. Do you have someone who inherited wealth on the other side of you too? That would be hell. ;)
- 0xfeba 8y ago
  I don't think anyone's suggesting everyone get the same portion. I just think that if you work 40 hours (or 35, or whatever we determine is "fulltime"), you should be able to support you and your dependents without going bankrupt if you get cancer.
- lghh 8y ago
  Trust me, I don't work 3x harder than most of the people I make 3x of. My wife is a teacher and I am in tech, I make 3x her salary. She works way more and spends more of both her physical and emotional labor on her job. I work hard and I do good work, but what she does is not even in the same stratosphere as what I do. I'm not innovating anything, I'm just writing decent code. She's finding new ways to help kids learn. Which sounds more demoralizing?
  - linkmotif 8y ago
    Teaching is a straw man. Teachers get paid poorly because (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make, and (2) it’s a government-based monopoly that prioritizes “benefits” and graft (tenure, etc) over salary
    - lghh 8y ago
      Straw men don't exist, my wife does exist.
      - linkmotif 8y ago
        But you use her in logic based arguments and then appeal to emotion so.... which is it? Your gripe shouldn’t be with rich people, it should be with Americans en masse, who yelled and screamed all Sunday night in my apartment building about grown men running into each other on TV with such a passion you’d think they were educating their children. And then they’re poor? Boo hoo. Maybe if Americans cared about education, showed passion for it like they do about Football, I would understand. You get paid 3x your wife because Americans care about what you produce, and they don't care about what she produces. It’s easy to soak the rich but take a look around you, people prioritize everything except the one thing that matters: education.
        lghh 8y ago
        > But you use her in logic based arguments and then appeal to emotion so.... which is it? My appeal was to the amount of effort required between jobs. > And then they’re poor? Boo hoo. Poor people are allowed to have hobbies and interests just as well as the rich. This sentiment is disgusting and you should be ashamed. > You get paid 3x your wife because Americans care about what you produce, and they don't care about what she produces. Trust me, I have worked jobs where I have been paid very, very well where nobody has cared about what I produced except the couple of people who were paying me.
- bpyne 8y ago
  I think you're creating a false dichotomy: either you accept a large gulf between those who have/have not and innovation or you create a society with a more even distribution and no innovation. As I read comments to socio-economic posts from people in various parts of Europe, it seems as though Germany, France, etc. are developing a middle way. As a native to the US, I think we really need to pay more attention to the middle way. We could use a little more social harmony.
- wvenable 8y ago
  As others have said, tons of people work harder than me but make less than me. My wife works at least as hard as I do for less pay. It's less about how hard you work and more about what you know. But sometimes it's even less than that -- it's about perceived value rather than actual value. You could lose an important secretary and the business might lose a lot of money but often that isn't perceived like that.
supermw 8y ago
If I put in my time, if I learn valuable skills, if I make smart choices, if I choose to do something complex over something menial, then I would want to see myself doing better than people who did not choose to do those things, no matter how nice and kind they may be. Anything else, would be unfair and make me question the point of my efforts.
- cmsonger 8y ago
  Someone else does not have to do badly for you to do better.
  - supermw 8y ago
    As an individual I am hardly responsible for others doing badly.
    - lghh 8y ago
      In a society that rewards hoarding the finite capital that exists, you sort of are.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Most people didn't have the choice you did.
  - supermw 8y ago
    My choices were nothing special: Pay attention in school, do my homework, get good grades, pick a meaningful hobby, don't drink or do drugs, don't beat up other kids for fun, read books, work in a retail store, stay away from drama, get into a decent college and choose a good major, do internships, network, pick up recommendations, get interviews at tech companies, get tech job, start paying debts, save and invest money, move and get better tech job, save and invest more money, pay more debts, keep learning new skills, get even better tech job, pay off debt, save and invest even MORE money, get promotion, save and invest TONS of money... by now you can see compounding effects are kicking in and not much can stop me. All this from a poor boy born in Raleigh.
CalRobert 8y ago
I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.
- laurentl 8y ago
  Good for you! Where in the EU? There is quite a bit of variation in work regulations and norms (e.g. minimum wage and salary variance) depending on the member states.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    Ireland - which is a mixed bag in some senses (if nothing else, work culture in tech here is HEAVILY influenced by the US) but still far better than California. Also, I don't mean to toot my horn but I may start a company in a year or two and even though I wouldn't necessarily have picked Ireland in the first place, their comparatively welcoming immigration policy (they have working holiday visas!) means it's where I've built my life.
- at-fates-hands 8y ago
  > protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). I've worked at two places who had this policy and it was remarkable how many people just burned themselves out by NOT taking a single day of vacation. There was always pressure from management to NOT take vacation, then you add in pressure from your co-workers to continually work late, push to get projects done on time, all at the cost of your sanity and physical well being. My thought has always been if you're going to join a company who has an "unlimited vacation" policy, it's probably a good indication there's an expectation you're going to work yourself into the ground, then burn out and will need an extended amount of time to get yourself right. If a company champions this policy during an interview, it's a huge red flag for me.
  - 8y ago
systemtest 8y ago
In places like Amsterdam the poor get a free car (Canta) and a free washing machine (Miele) from the city. It's good that they don't endure hardship, but it also doesn't give them the perspective that you experienced and they may never have enough incentive to make their life better. If people in Amsterdam had to go to the laundromat that could give them the push to find a good job so that they can earn a nice washing machine.
- GVIrish 8y ago
  I don't know if that really makes sense. By that logic, the more miserable we make life for poor people, the more motivation they will have to get out of that life. A good social safety net means that poor people are not so busy trying to survive that they actually have the opportunity to improve their lot in life if they so choose. If you're not burning up 4 hours a day commuting and several hours a week washing clothes, you have more time to read to your children, or take some community college classes. There will be people who decide that a life relying on the safety net is fine for them. Is that a worse thing than there being no safety net and people who have to drive to succeed are largely prevented from doing so? Or people who are working hard getting their lives destroyed due to one streak of bad luck?
  - systemtest 8y ago
    A safety net should not become a hammock.
    - Daishiman 8y ago
      Why not?
      - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        If "hammock" means a place you just comfortably rest in, then why should it? Or, turn it around: Why should you take the results of my work and give them to someone who won't (not can't) work? Why should someone who deliberately chooses not to try be considered entitled to me supporting them? Someone who needs help? Sure, let's help them. Someone who just wants to be lazy? It's really unclear why they are more entitled to my money than I am.
rock_hard 8y ago
When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a house a couple years ago. I am gonna retire at 50. I hated living in Europe, the socialism makes people dead on the inside and there is no upward mobility for people that weren’t born into the right circumstances with the right degree’s and relationships :( America has been excellent to me and I have done my best to do my part of the deal! It’s not for everyone of course, there is some nice things about Europe and their socialism too...but overall I hated it simple because of what it does to people’s spirits. America sure has its own problems...but IMO Europe is off much worse
- MockObject 8y ago
  How is this wholesome content even getting downvoted?
  - arandr0x 8y ago
    I don't know, I upvoted it... I think it's good other immigrants are giving their perspective. Personally I was a cultural mismatch and that's why I left... that doesn't mean nobody has these particular values or that everybody shares mine.
  - kiliantics 8y ago
    Because it sounds like anti-socialist pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps propaganda. It's not wholesome because it's not how things work for most people. The commenter could be very lucky or (more likely) very blind to real privileges they benefited from in their story. But their story fits a narrative that allows people to feel comfortable with their wealth while poverty is rampant around them, so such people find it "wholesome".
    - MockObject 8y ago
sol_remmy2 8y ago
Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.
- svantana 8y ago
  Easily disproven statement by looking at real stats [1], where most western european countries are ahead of the US. If you're suggesting those immigrants are not "poor", consider the Syrian crisis, Germany and Sweden were by far the largest takers of syrian refugees in the west, while the US hardly took any syrians at all. In fact, I read somewhere that Sweden in 2015 was the largest taker of refugees per capita from non-neighboring countries EVER. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra...
  - at-fates-hands 8y ago
    Which has led to massive issues within Sweden. An extraordinary 190,000 refugees are now expected to arrive in Sweden this year - double what the agency expected at the start of the year, and more people than live in Uppsala, the country's fourth largest city. If the predictions are correct, Sweden will take 20,000 asylum applications per million people in 2015, double the rate even of Germany. The strain is beginning to show everywhere from politics - where the anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats are, according to two of the country's eight main polls, now the party with the most support - to finance, where both the central government and municipalities are struggling to find savings to cover the costs. https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-hits-refugee-crisis-zero-hour/a-18863702 https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-hits-refugee-crisis-zero-hour/a...
  - sol_remmy2 8y ago
    If you look at immigration rates over the past 50 years, the US comes far far ahead. The US look a majority of its immigrants in the 90s and early 2000s, while Sweden took near-zero immigrants until 10 years ago. Additionally, many Western European 'immigrants' are actually just people moving between different Western European countries.
KKKKkkkk1 8y ago
Maybe if the "favored class" Americans took the bus or went to the laundromat like I did for years they'd want poor people to do well too. You're making two assumptions: (1) There's a favored class, and (2) The favored class does not want poor people to do well. Both assumptions are wrong.
- adamsea 8y ago
  Yeah, it's not as if America is like some episode of 'Star Trek' where one group of a planet's inhabitants consider themselves superior because their skin is of one particular hue, and historically have used that as an excuse to exploit and oppress the other groups.
linkmotif 8y ago
Poor people could do well in America if they made economic decisions that led to them accumulating wealth.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  Ah yes, poor because they are not smart. Because the US is a perfect meritocracy. This is ludicrously off the mark and shows how out of touch people really are about how the world works for others.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    Having grown up poor I'd say it's not that poor people are not as smart, it's that they are extremely anti-intellectual. I tried my hardest to get family/friends/community into computers (or really any intellectual pursuit). Resistance was extreme to say the least. Reading a book is looked down upon. Computers are for "nerds". I used too many "five dollar words"... If you want a real view of the situation you have to place some blame on the people making choices holding themselves back. It's not that easy to see if you didn't grow up in that environment though.
    - cableshaft 8y ago
      Intellectuals can be poor and/or make bad choices too. I know plenty of smart people who are struggling to make ends meet (me included, to a certain extent, and I make 2-3x more than a lot of these people). But you're right that there is a culture of anti-intellectualism amongst a certain segment of poor people.
      - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
        But that means that most kids who grow up in that culture are going to absorb those same influences. It doesn't seem fair to then blame them for the society they came from.
linkmotif 8y ago
> I eventually went back to a country with a social safety net where the working class people on my bus talk about their vacations. I sincerely wish that everyone who wanted socialism just went to a socialist country instead of trying to import it here, and I really appreciate that you did. Thank you! We can admire and appreciate each other from afar. (100% genuine, well intended comment here). My family came to the US from a socialist country, seeking freedom and capitalism. I have no idea what to do now that socialism is arriving here.
jdlyga 8y ago
I hear the west coast is like that. I work out of New York, and it feels a lot more egalitarian with a variety of different types of jobs.
Spooky23 8y ago
This is becoming more common, but has been true for a long time. I remember working at the mall as a student in mid-90s, you could see that the key to being moderately successful in that environment was maintaining a car. Without a car, you couldn't move up to a management role (as you'd often have to come in early/late when bus transit was least effective), couldn't get a second job that paid more and you couldn't go to school to gtfo of retail.

aantix 8y ago

Without incentives, there is no innovation. And if everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, what’s the incentive to work harder? Seeing your neighbor put in a third of the effort and produce the same economic result is demoralizing.

stetrain 8y ago
Do you think that in the US that your effort put in is always reflected in your economic result? That those with lower economic results are only those who put in less effort than their neighbor?
bluntfang 8y ago
Did your incentives create the system or did the system create you incentives? I think that's a worthwhile thought to reflect on.
cagenut 8y ago
you may be driven by spite and jealousy, but thats you buddy, don't project it on the rest of us.
anthony_romeo 8y ago
I don’t think the poster above suggested that everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, so I’m not sure why you made that leap
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  It’s a standard technique to stop the discussion. As soon as someone mentions inequality just shout “socialism” and “incentives “. Never mind that nobody argues that everybody should get exactly the same but the question is how much more of the pie the top should get and whether their share should keep increasing.
  - aantix 8y ago
    You have access to “the top” through resourcefulness and risk taking. But if one is not inclined to be that type, I’m not sure what ensures them to the rewards of those willing to do so?
    - unclebucknasty 8y ago
      >You have access to “the top” through resourcefulness and risk taking You forgot generational wealth. In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. So, it's doubtful that poor people's problem is that they just don't take enough risks.
      - donaldknuth123 8y ago
        >In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. Who would downvote this, the data isn't even remotely controversial. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/economists-your-parents-are-more-important-than-ever/283301/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/economi...
      - chosenbreed37 8y ago
        > In the U.S. the class into which you are born determines the class you'll reach more than any other factor. Overwhelmingly. It's not even close. Interesting...I've always thought of the US as being more of a meritocracy than the UK and Europe in general. I mean that is what the American dream is all about right?
na85 8y ago
Are you suggesting that there is no middle ground between barbaric US-style capitalism and forced redistribution of wealth?
- leetcrew 8y ago
  the barbaric US already has forced redistribution of wealth.
normal_man 8y ago
I think the idea that free-market capitalism drives innovation is not something you can take for granted at all. How many companies making copycat apps that serve no purpose or complete bullshit like Juicero get millions in funding?
- anonuser123456 8y ago
  You literally gave an example for why free-market capitalism supports innovation; e.g. the product was stupid and the market rejected it.
  - kamarg 8y ago
    The market rejecting a product has nothing to do with innovation. It's people saying I can't afford this or I don't value this at the price you're selling it at, or even I don't like the politics of someone that works for you. But it says nothing about if a product is innovative or not.
    - nybble41 8y ago
      Innovation includes factors like actually being able to manufacture the product at a price people are willing to pay. If something is worth at most $10, coming up with a novel way to do it for less than $10 is innovative; coming up with a way to do it for $1000 is just wasting time. It's easy to come up with crazy, impractical ideas. The essence of innovation is turning those ideas into sustainable, marketable, and thus profitable products.
arandr0x 8y ago
I just think people who come in late at the party because their kid was sick and they're mentally ill and they live way out in the middle of the country and there's no pie left should at least get a couple apples or something.
- wincy 8y ago
  My kid is disabled and I have severe anxiety and suffered depression. I live right in the middle of the US. I didn’t start my tech career until 28 because of all that, but I’m doing ok. I live in a big house with good schools. From what I’ve gathered of non-US (European) tech jobs, I’d never have gotten an opportunity to work as a programmer because I never got a bachelors degree. Maybe it isn’t like that everywhere, but it feels good that a high school dropout can make 6 figures and live in a 2000 square foot house and easily support two kids and a stay at home wife. I’d also likely never have learned to control my issues and gotten proper treatment if I hadn’t been left almost homeless when my family kicked me out for dropping out of college. As long as things were “good enough”, I poured my heart and soul into noble ventures like my World of Warcraft career (300 days played)! and League of Legends. I know I’m not everyone, in fact I’m likely an exceptional case, none of my friends who grew up similarly to me ended up achieving what I have, but if the safety net was too comfortable I doubt I’d have ever felt the need to climb out of it once I fell into it. I’m personally glad to live in the USA despite its flaws.
  - arandr0x 8y ago
    It's great that you were able to do that, and I've been to Europe (not where the country I was referring to is located) and I agree with you about the degree. That said, it's just emotional on my part like I said in the OP. Yeah I knew people who were poor and who probably spent their entire life since that time doing drugs and collecting their assistance checks. (And to be fair I knew people who were rich and probably spent their entire life since that time doing drugs and collecting their monthly allowance. Both are far from the norm of the rich/poor people. They're just specific examples of not caring much about your life beyond it going on.) I prefer to live in a world where five hundred thousand people are sitting on their asses doing nothing passing the seconds till their death through their own choices than in a world where fifty thousand people are running ragged feeling their bodies waste away not knowing where their time goes through the choices of people who just wanted a nicer lawn. The first world seems like it has more happiness per capita plus the outcome of each is a result of things like effort. The second world seems like it belongs in a SF story about the unchosen ones.
Temasik 8y ago
>>incentives >>linus torvalds
Pulcinella 8y ago
This is a pretty negative outlook on humanity. People do things for reasons other than making money. Also seeing your boss put in a third the effort and produce 10 times the paycheck is also demoralizing...
- aantix 8y ago
  Of course they do. They’re called hobbies. But do they take massive risks without potential massive reward? A lot wouldn’t. Unless they’re under the rule of a dictator and their life is threatened. That’s an incentive.
  - elliekelly 8y ago
    Wouldn't? Or can't given the lack of safety nets? If the worst-case scenario is starting over perhaps the risk isn't so "massive." But when the worst-case scenario is starving then it's certainly a massive risk.
  - lghh 8y ago
    Most people who can take "massive risks" end up, at worst, in the same situation as the average American if they fail. The average American, on the other hand, can't take those risks at all because they could end up homeless or with mountains of medical debt. Reducing how far you can fall would allow for more risks to be taken.
- criley2 8y ago
  Seeing your boss do it teaches you to become the boss. Seeing your neighbor do it teaches you to switch jobs and work 1/3 as hard. The reason this doesn't work is the same incentives people are discussing. If there are high-paying easy jobs, people will demand them and theoretically the wages will fall until demand for the job tapers off. All of this is a bit unfair though, because "having a social safety net where poor people can have vacations and a happy life" is a lot different than the myopic, mean-spirited conservative reply of "but my neighbor is a lazy jerk who makes more than me!"
- PakG1 8y ago
  Temper this with the understanding that many workers don't have a good view of what their boss actually does and just assume that their boss puts in a third of the effort, when in fact he might put in much much more and the situation may also be difficult to fathom. https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3156692 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3156692
unclebucknasty 8y ago
Why does every conversation about social safety nets or a more equitable distribution of wealth involve a rebuttal by one group that goes directly to fulminant communism, the likes of which has never existed? And, how does that same group--that is supposedly so concerned about fairness--see as fair, a status quo which favors capital over labor to an untenable degree?
- FussyZeus 8y ago
  Because of internalized anti-Russia propaganda. If the person is young enough to have not been around during the Cold War, they just internalized it from their parents instead of the Government.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  It’s just a technique. Don’t allow for nuance but take everything to the extreme and the discussion is closed.
RobertoG 8y ago
Well, then, surely, most of the innovation is coming from the poorest people.
emptyfile 8y ago
Ah yes, because any critique of the american system must mean that the poster supports full on communism.
ragebol 8y ago
But does that incentive need to be so huge? Would innovation not happen anymore when the incentive was reduced to say 1%, 10% or 25% etc? My motivation for doing what I do (which I'd classify as innovative) is not (just) the money. The money is nice too, but I don't think I could work in e.g. finance because I like technology and developing new stuff.
- tomjen3 8y ago
  If I didn't get paid I would still be writing code, and a good deal more complicated, but I probably wouldn't care to make the output something users needed. As for reducing the incentives, that is already done quite heavily: the US income tax about 1/3. With that you should be able to create a very effective safety line, it is not the successfuls fault it is pissed away on political corruption and a wasteful war on drugs/minorities.
- anonuser123456 8y ago
  >but I don't think I could work in e.g. finance because I like technology and developing new stuff. Right, most people don't want to work in finance. They do so because of the money. And generally financial CEOs/CFOs are smart enough to only pay workers what they have to. So the incentives are probably priced appropriately. "Innovation" always takes a ton of muck work that has very little glory. I work at a chip company. For every engineer doing cutting edge work, you have 10 people doing very unsexy support tasks that are 100% necessary. These are roles people do because they pay well, not because they are interesting.
donaldknuth123 8y ago
What is the point of innovation without progress? So San Francisco can house dozens of billionaires while also facing an astonishing homelessness crisis? You can create all the apps and gadgets you want but if you don't improve peoples lives or in fact actively hurt them what exactly are you achieving besides personal enrichment?
ikurei 8y ago
> And if everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, what’s the incentive to work harder? Huge strawman. Who's arguing for total and absolute equality of our outcomes? I live in one of those "safety net" countries. We aren't all entitled to the same share of the pie, it's just that hard-working people don't have to go hungry or work 2 jobs just to get by, or at least not that often. People can get a very good and valued education without going into debt, and cancer doesn't make you go poor. I get a greater share of the pie than most of my friends, because I was wise at choosing degree, and worked harder at it, and also I was lucky enough to be born with some mild gifts. But when friend's parents get sick, the families don't have to go into debt to get a great treatment. I can't be expected to know how the economy and society will change, and whether they will leave me stranded after a bubble bursts or something. We can't all be great economists; not that they get it right either. I'll work my ass off to avoid that, but I'm glad to know my compatriots have my back (to some extent), as I have theirs now.
laurentl 8y ago
This is a bit of a strawman argument: the parent post does not claim that everyone should have the same share of the pie, but that one should get a minimal share rather than nothing.
cmsonger 8y ago
> Seeing your neighbor put in a third of the effort and produce the same economic result is demoralizing. Sorry to hear you are neighbors with a hedge fund manager. Do you have someone who inherited wealth on the other side of you too? That would be hell. ;)
0xfeba 8y ago
I don't think anyone's suggesting everyone get the same portion. I just think that if you work 40 hours (or 35, or whatever we determine is "fulltime"), you should be able to support you and your dependents without going bankrupt if you get cancer.
lghh 8y ago
Trust me, I don't work 3x harder than most of the people I make 3x of. My wife is a teacher and I am in tech, I make 3x her salary. She works way more and spends more of both her physical and emotional labor on her job. I work hard and I do good work, but what she does is not even in the same stratosphere as what I do. I'm not innovating anything, I'm just writing decent code. She's finding new ways to help kids learn. Which sounds more demoralizing?
- linkmotif 8y ago
  Teaching is a straw man. Teachers get paid poorly because (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make, and (2) it’s a government-based monopoly that prioritizes “benefits” and graft (tenure, etc) over salary
  - lghh 8y ago
    Straw men don't exist, my wife does exist.
    - linkmotif 8y ago
      But you use her in logic based arguments and then appeal to emotion so.... which is it? Your gripe shouldn’t be with rich people, it should be with Americans en masse, who yelled and screamed all Sunday night in my apartment building about grown men running into each other on TV with such a passion you’d think they were educating their children. And then they’re poor? Boo hoo. Maybe if Americans cared about education, showed passion for it like they do about Football, I would understand. You get paid 3x your wife because Americans care about what you produce, and they don't care about what she produces. It’s easy to soak the rich but take a look around you, people prioritize everything except the one thing that matters: education.
      - lghh 8y ago
        > But you use her in logic based arguments and then appeal to emotion so.... which is it? My appeal was to the amount of effort required between jobs. > And then they’re poor? Boo hoo. Poor people are allowed to have hobbies and interests just as well as the rich. This sentiment is disgusting and you should be ashamed. > You get paid 3x your wife because Americans care about what you produce, and they don't care about what she produces. Trust me, I have worked jobs where I have been paid very, very well where nobody has cared about what I produced except the couple of people who were paying me.
bpyne 8y ago
I think you're creating a false dichotomy: either you accept a large gulf between those who have/have not and innovation or you create a society with a more even distribution and no innovation. As I read comments to socio-economic posts from people in various parts of Europe, it seems as though Germany, France, etc. are developing a middle way. As a native to the US, I think we really need to pay more attention to the middle way. We could use a little more social harmony.
wvenable 8y ago
As others have said, tons of people work harder than me but make less than me. My wife works at least as hard as I do for less pay. It's less about how hard you work and more about what you know. But sometimes it's even less than that -- it's about perceived value rather than actual value. You could lose an important secretary and the business might lose a lot of money but often that isn't perceived like that.

supermw 8y ago

If I put in my time, if I learn valuable skills, if I make smart choices, if I choose to do something complex over something menial, then I would want to see myself doing better than people who did not choose to do those things, no matter how nice and kind they may be. Anything else, would be unfair and make me question the point of my efforts.

cmsonger 8y ago
Someone else does not have to do badly for you to do better.
- supermw 8y ago
  As an individual I am hardly responsible for others doing badly.
  - lghh 8y ago
    In a society that rewards hoarding the finite capital that exists, you sort of are.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
Most people didn't have the choice you did.
- supermw 8y ago
  My choices were nothing special: Pay attention in school, do my homework, get good grades, pick a meaningful hobby, don't drink or do drugs, don't beat up other kids for fun, read books, work in a retail store, stay away from drama, get into a decent college and choose a good major, do internships, network, pick up recommendations, get interviews at tech companies, get tech job, start paying debts, save and invest money, move and get better tech job, save and invest more money, pay more debts, keep learning new skills, get even better tech job, pay off debt, save and invest even MORE money, get promotion, save and invest TONS of money... by now you can see compounding effects are kicking in and not much can stop me. All this from a poor boy born in Raleigh.

CalRobert 8y ago

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

laurentl 8y ago
Good for you! Where in the EU? There is quite a bit of variation in work regulations and norms (e.g. minimum wage and salary variance) depending on the member states.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  Ireland - which is a mixed bag in some senses (if nothing else, work culture in tech here is HEAVILY influenced by the US) but still far better than California. Also, I don't mean to toot my horn but I may start a company in a year or two and even though I wouldn't necessarily have picked Ireland in the first place, their comparatively welcoming immigration policy (they have working holiday visas!) means it's where I've built my life.
at-fates-hands 8y ago
> protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). I've worked at two places who had this policy and it was remarkable how many people just burned themselves out by NOT taking a single day of vacation. There was always pressure from management to NOT take vacation, then you add in pressure from your co-workers to continually work late, push to get projects done on time, all at the cost of your sanity and physical well being. My thought has always been if you're going to join a company who has an "unlimited vacation" policy, it's probably a good indication there's an expectation you're going to work yourself into the ground, then burn out and will need an extended amount of time to get yourself right. If a company champions this policy during an interview, it's a huge red flag for me.
- 8y ago

systemtest 8y ago

In places like Amsterdam the poor get a free car (Canta) and a free washing machine (Miele) from the city. It's good that they don't endure hardship, but it also doesn't give them the perspective that you experienced and they may never have enough incentive to make their life better. If people in Amsterdam had to go to the laundromat that could give them the push to find a good job so that they can earn a nice washing machine.

GVIrish 8y ago
I don't know if that really makes sense. By that logic, the more miserable we make life for poor people, the more motivation they will have to get out of that life. A good social safety net means that poor people are not so busy trying to survive that they actually have the opportunity to improve their lot in life if they so choose. If you're not burning up 4 hours a day commuting and several hours a week washing clothes, you have more time to read to your children, or take some community college classes. There will be people who decide that a life relying on the safety net is fine for them. Is that a worse thing than there being no safety net and people who have to drive to succeed are largely prevented from doing so? Or people who are working hard getting their lives destroyed due to one streak of bad luck?
- systemtest 8y ago
  A safety net should not become a hammock.
  - Daishiman 8y ago
    Why not?
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      If "hammock" means a place you just comfortably rest in, then why should it? Or, turn it around: Why should you take the results of my work and give them to someone who won't (not can't) work? Why should someone who deliberately chooses not to try be considered entitled to me supporting them? Someone who needs help? Sure, let's help them. Someone who just wants to be lazy? It's really unclear why they are more entitled to my money than I am.

rock_hard 8y ago

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a house a couple years ago. I am gonna retire at 50. I hated living in Europe, the socialism makes people dead on the inside and there is no upward mobility for people that weren’t born into the right circumstances with the right degree’s and relationships :( America has been excellent to me and I have done my best to do my part of the deal! It’s not for everyone of course, there is some nice things about Europe and their socialism too...but overall I hated it simple because of what it does to people’s spirits. America sure has its own problems...but IMO Europe is off much worse

MockObject 8y ago
How is this wholesome content even getting downvoted?
- arandr0x 8y ago
  I don't know, I upvoted it... I think it's good other immigrants are giving their perspective. Personally I was a cultural mismatch and that's why I left... that doesn't mean nobody has these particular values or that everybody shares mine.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  Because it sounds like anti-socialist pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps propaganda. It's not wholesome because it's not how things work for most people. The commenter could be very lucky or (more likely) very blind to real privileges they benefited from in their story. But their story fits a narrative that allows people to feel comfortable with their wealth while poverty is rampant around them, so such people find it "wholesome".
  - MockObject 8y ago

sol_remmy2 8y ago

Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.

svantana 8y ago
Easily disproven statement by looking at real stats [1], where most western european countries are ahead of the US. If you're suggesting those immigrants are not "poor", consider the Syrian crisis, Germany and Sweden were by far the largest takers of syrian refugees in the west, while the US hardly took any syrians at all. In fact, I read somewhere that Sweden in 2015 was the largest taker of refugees per capita from non-neighboring countries EVER. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra...
- at-fates-hands 8y ago
  Which has led to massive issues within Sweden. An extraordinary 190,000 refugees are now expected to arrive in Sweden this year - double what the agency expected at the start of the year, and more people than live in Uppsala, the country's fourth largest city. If the predictions are correct, Sweden will take 20,000 asylum applications per million people in 2015, double the rate even of Germany. The strain is beginning to show everywhere from politics - where the anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats are, according to two of the country's eight main polls, now the party with the most support - to finance, where both the central government and municipalities are struggling to find savings to cover the costs. https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-hits-refugee-crisis-zero-hour/a-18863702 https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-hits-refugee-crisis-zero-hour/a...
- sol_remmy2 8y ago
  If you look at immigration rates over the past 50 years, the US comes far far ahead. The US look a majority of its immigrants in the 90s and early 2000s, while Sweden took near-zero immigrants until 10 years ago. Additionally, many Western European 'immigrants' are actually just people moving between different Western European countries.

KKKKkkkk1 8y ago

Maybe if the "favored class" Americans took the bus or went to the laundromat like I did for years they'd want poor people to do well too. You're making two assumptions: (1) There's a favored class, and (2) The favored class does not want poor people to do well. Both assumptions are wrong.

adamsea 8y ago
Yeah, it's not as if America is like some episode of 'Star Trek' where one group of a planet's inhabitants consider themselves superior because their skin is of one particular hue, and historically have used that as an excuse to exploit and oppress the other groups.

linkmotif 8y ago

Poor people could do well in America if they made economic decisions that led to them accumulating wealth.

kiliantics 8y ago
Ah yes, poor because they are not smart. Because the US is a perfect meritocracy. This is ludicrously off the mark and shows how out of touch people really are about how the world works for others.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- malvosenior 8y ago
  Having grown up poor I'd say it's not that poor people are not as smart, it's that they are extremely anti-intellectual. I tried my hardest to get family/friends/community into computers (or really any intellectual pursuit). Resistance was extreme to say the least. Reading a book is looked down upon. Computers are for "nerds". I used too many "five dollar words"... If you want a real view of the situation you have to place some blame on the people making choices holding themselves back. It's not that easy to see if you didn't grow up in that environment though.
  - cableshaft 8y ago
    Intellectuals can be poor and/or make bad choices too. I know plenty of smart people who are struggling to make ends meet (me included, to a certain extent, and I make 2-3x more than a lot of these people). But you're right that there is a culture of anti-intellectualism amongst a certain segment of poor people.
    - amanaplanacanal 8y ago
      But that means that most kids who grow up in that culture are going to absorb those same influences. It doesn't seem fair to then blame them for the society they came from.

linkmotif 8y ago

> I eventually went back to a country with a social safety net where the working class people on my bus talk about their vacations. I sincerely wish that everyone who wanted socialism just went to a socialist country instead of trying to import it here, and I really appreciate that you did. Thank you! We can admire and appreciate each other from afar. (100% genuine, well intended comment here). My family came to the US from a socialist country, seeking freedom and capitalism. I have no idea what to do now that socialism is arriving here.

jdlyga 8y ago

I hear the west coast is like that. I work out of New York, and it feels a lot more egalitarian with a variety of different types of jobs.

Spooky23 8y ago

This is becoming more common, but has been true for a long time. I remember working at the mall as a student in mid-90s, you could see that the key to being moderately successful in that environment was maintaining a car. Without a car, you couldn't move up to a management role (as you'd often have to come in early/late when bus transit was least effective), couldn't get a second job that paid more and you couldn't go to school to gtfo of retail.