12 ms·

Few people taking theses tests understand or care about the privacy-destroying effect of what they're doing to themselves and their families. For example, this

by apo 8y ago

Few people taking theses tests understand or care about the privacy-destroying effect of what they're doing to themselves and their families. For example, this is from the AncestryDNA (different company) terms of service: By submitting User Provided Content to AncestryDNA, you grant AncestryDNA and the Ancestry Group Companies a perpetual, royalty-free, worldwide, sublicensable, transferable license to host, transfer, process, analyze, distribute, communicate, and display your submission for the purposes of providing Ancestry's products and services, conducting Ancestry’s research and product development, enhancing Ancestry’s user experience, and making and offering personalized products and services. https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/dnaterms_2017_09_22_us?hideHeader=1#Term3 https://www.ancestry.com/cs/legal/dnaterms_2017_09_22_us?hid... There's a feel-good statement elsewhere in the document about how the company won't disclose your info to third parties, but this grant of rights pretty much covers anything you'd want to do with a DNA sequence. Privacy policies change, but grants of rights like this to a service like Ancestry are forever. I imagine a future in which every casual DNA company has been hoovered into a single powerful corporation. All those rights granted by users will transfer to that new company. That company will be just as mean as Facebook (or Microsoft in its heyday), but 10x more powerful.

dayvid 8y ago
The biggest insult is that you're paying them money to violate your privacy. Some links I've seen for DIY thermocycling [1] https://openpcr.org/ https://openpcr.org/ [2] https://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-PCR-thermal-cycler-for-under-85/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-PCR-thermal-cycler-... Hope this becomes more of a thing. This is one of the fields where a non-cloud or decentralized solution is more desirable.
dangrossman 8y ago
> and their families That's how a local cold murder case was solved last year. DNA from a 25-year-old crime scene was run against the samples in one of these genealogy databases, and they found a familial match. Police set up a sting to covertly collect DNA from that person's immediate family. They got their DNA match with a brother's water bottle police took from a trash can after he worked a DJ gig at a school. https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/christy-mirack-slaying-update-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/christy-mirack-slaying-upd... The now-confessed killer was the DJ at my wedding. He never would have been caught if his brother hadn't done one of these genealogy tests. He wasn't even a suspect in the initial investigation.
- telchar 8y ago
  Indeed. Not that I plan on being involved in any such crimes (necessary disclaimer?) but a family member of mine submitted their DNA to one of these services. Now it's irrelevant whether I submit mine or not because it's as good as in there anyway. Feels real good having your rights signed away by someone else...
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    What rights? Surely if you have rights to your DNA, then your family member has rights to their DNA. It’s just an unfortunate consequence of how DNA works.
    - andrei_says_ 8y ago
      No, it’s an unfortunate consequence of how the dna test provider treats everyone’s data. It’s incredibly empowering for abuse and completely disrespectful to the individual. The assymetry is staggering.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - AuthorizedCust 8y ago
        What if a court compels the analysis or data sharing?
        drharby 8y ago
        That migrates the issue from business ethics and consumer rights to that of legality.
        andrei_says_ 8y ago
        The fbi has is own database. Of course having everyone’s dna will help them solve a few (one?) more crimes. At what cost?
oh_sigh 8y ago
Personally, I'm okay if my DNA sample helps catch a cousin, brother, or other family member that is a murderer/rapist/etc. Less okay with them using my sample for promotional material, but I've never really seen that done except for people who clearly consent(ie by starring in a commercial or photo shoot for the company).
- TomK32 8y ago
  Until false positives land you in prison. https://gizmodo.com/when-bad-dna-tests-lead-to-false-convictions-1797915655 https://gizmodo.com/when-bad-dna-tests-lead-to-false-convict...
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    That is a general problem with DNA tests, regardless of how samples are collected or potential perpetrators are identified. And it seems like the solution is known and accepted by the courts now, at least in Taiwan: "don't rely on just 17 markers when performing DNA matching tests"
    - mikeash 8y ago
      It’s not, however, a problem that can affect you if your DNA isn’t in any database in the first place.
      - googlryas 8y ago
        The man in the linked story did not have his DNA in any database that the police used - they got his name volunteered from the people present at the crime scene. So yes it is a problem that can affect you if your DNA isn't in any database.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- rixrax 8y ago
  Until another regime shows up that decides to neuter or eradicate people with a specific trait.
kilo_bravo_3 8y ago
>what they're doing to themselves and their families. This only encourages me. My DNA is on record in various places, and if any relative of mine commits a crime I want the honor of being the person who fucked them and sent them to prison. I would tout the event as an esteemed accomplishment. Everyone seems to be worried about a sci-fi movie where clones are made from cheek swabs or corporations use DNA to deny certain services. The former is a pipe dream and the latter is already (partially) illegal in the US via the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008. If evilmegacorp is going to break the law today then they'll break it tomorrow as well. Every conceivable scenario in which DNA can be used to harm an individual can be answered with "well a bad actor can already do that today using different methods". As far as I'm concerned a database of DNA is no different than a database of mugshots or fingerprints. Mugshots and fingerprints have both led to false-positives being reported. "Oh but DNA might lead to a false-positive so it must never be used" differs little from "eyewitness testimony, mugshots, fingerprint analysis, confessions, and every single investigative technique ever used in the history of humanity has unassailably led to false positives therefore they should all be banned".
- mikeash 8y ago
  What about accidental harm because your DNA or a relative’s DNA managed to end up at a crime scene, or bad lab procedures produce a false match?
  - kilo_bravo_3 8y ago
    >Most notoriously, Brandon Mayfield, an American lawyer, was wrongly linked by four fingerprint experts to the 2004 Madrid train bombing. He was arrested and detained for two weeks, before investigators realised that an Algerian man, Ouhnane Daoud, was the real source of the print. https://theconversation.com/fingerprinting-to-solve-crimes-not-as-robust-as-you-think-85534 https://theconversation.com/fingerprinting-to-solve-crimes-n... Should law enforcement be prohibited from fingerprinting objects found at crime scenes?
    - Pharmakon 8y ago
dfxm12 8y ago
I wonder if there's an alternate universe where people are PAID to use this service. Where the company is upfront about buying your data from you because they intend on making a ton of money from it later on, maybe for nefarious means, maybe to try and cure some disease, I don't know if that part of it matters. Anyway, I wonder if people would be skeptical of the company's motives to the point where they don't want to give up their data or if they'd still just really want that cool DNA sequence art and to have a laugh about having 7% unexpected DNA.
buboard 8y ago
OTOH , with other public services (administrative, police, healthcare) you re not even asked to agree to the terms.
paulryanrogers 8y ago
> There's a feel-good statement elsewhere in the document about how the company won't disclose your info to third parties Can a lawyer answer whether or not such promises apply to an acquiring company, should they ever be sold?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by apo 8y ago

dayvid 8y ago

The biggest insult is that you're paying them money to violate your privacy. Some links I've seen for DIY thermocycling [1] https://openpcr.org/ https://openpcr.org/ [2] https://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-PCR-thermal-cycler-for-under-85/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-PCR-thermal-cycler-... Hope this becomes more of a thing. This is one of the fields where a non-cloud or decentralized solution is more desirable.

dangrossman 8y ago

> and their families That's how a local cold murder case was solved last year. DNA from a 25-year-old crime scene was run against the samples in one of these genealogy databases, and they found a familial match. Police set up a sting to covertly collect DNA from that person's immediate family. They got their DNA match with a brother's water bottle police took from a trash can after he worked a DJ gig at a school. https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/christy-mirack-slaying-update-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/christy-mirack-slaying-upd... The now-confessed killer was the DJ at my wedding. He never would have been caught if his brother hadn't done one of these genealogy tests. He wasn't even a suspect in the initial investigation.

telchar 8y ago
Indeed. Not that I plan on being involved in any such crimes (necessary disclaimer?) but a family member of mine submitted their DNA to one of these services. Now it's irrelevant whether I submit mine or not because it's as good as in there anyway. Feels real good having your rights signed away by someone else...
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  What rights? Surely if you have rights to your DNA, then your family member has rights to their DNA. It’s just an unfortunate consequence of how DNA works.
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    No, it’s an unfortunate consequence of how the dna test provider treats everyone’s data. It’s incredibly empowering for abuse and completely disrespectful to the individual. The assymetry is staggering.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - AuthorizedCust 8y ago
      What if a court compels the analysis or data sharing?
      - drharby 8y ago
        That migrates the issue from business ethics and consumer rights to that of legality.
      - andrei_says_ 8y ago
        The fbi has is own database. Of course having everyone’s dna will help them solve a few (one?) more crimes. At what cost?

oh_sigh 8y ago

Personally, I'm okay if my DNA sample helps catch a cousin, brother, or other family member that is a murderer/rapist/etc. Less okay with them using my sample for promotional material, but I've never really seen that done except for people who clearly consent(ie by starring in a commercial or photo shoot for the company).

TomK32 8y ago
Until false positives land you in prison. https://gizmodo.com/when-bad-dna-tests-lead-to-false-convictions-1797915655 https://gizmodo.com/when-bad-dna-tests-lead-to-false-convict...
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  That is a general problem with DNA tests, regardless of how samples are collected or potential perpetrators are identified. And it seems like the solution is known and accepted by the courts now, at least in Taiwan: "don't rely on just 17 markers when performing DNA matching tests"
  - mikeash 8y ago
    It’s not, however, a problem that can affect you if your DNA isn’t in any database in the first place.
    - googlryas 8y ago
      The man in the linked story did not have his DNA in any database that the police used - they got his name volunteered from the people present at the crime scene. So yes it is a problem that can affect you if your DNA isn't in any database.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
rixrax 8y ago
Until another regime shows up that decides to neuter or eradicate people with a specific trait.

kilo_bravo_3 8y ago

>what they're doing to themselves and their families. This only encourages me. My DNA is on record in various places, and if any relative of mine commits a crime I want the honor of being the person who fucked them and sent them to prison. I would tout the event as an esteemed accomplishment. Everyone seems to be worried about a sci-fi movie where clones are made from cheek swabs or corporations use DNA to deny certain services. The former is a pipe dream and the latter is already (partially) illegal in the US via the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008. If evilmegacorp is going to break the law today then they'll break it tomorrow as well. Every conceivable scenario in which DNA can be used to harm an individual can be answered with "well a bad actor can already do that today using different methods". As far as I'm concerned a database of DNA is no different than a database of mugshots or fingerprints. Mugshots and fingerprints have both led to false-positives being reported. "Oh but DNA might lead to a false-positive so it must never be used" differs little from "eyewitness testimony, mugshots, fingerprint analysis, confessions, and every single investigative technique ever used in the history of humanity has unassailably led to false positives therefore they should all be banned".

mikeash 8y ago
What about accidental harm because your DNA or a relative’s DNA managed to end up at a crime scene, or bad lab procedures produce a false match?
- kilo_bravo_3 8y ago
  >Most notoriously, Brandon Mayfield, an American lawyer, was wrongly linked by four fingerprint experts to the 2004 Madrid train bombing. He was arrested and detained for two weeks, before investigators realised that an Algerian man, Ouhnane Daoud, was the real source of the print. https://theconversation.com/fingerprinting-to-solve-crimes-not-as-robust-as-you-think-85534 https://theconversation.com/fingerprinting-to-solve-crimes-n... Should law enforcement be prohibited from fingerprinting objects found at crime scenes?
  - Pharmakon 8y ago

dfxm12 8y ago

I wonder if there's an alternate universe where people are PAID to use this service. Where the company is upfront about buying your data from you because they intend on making a ton of money from it later on, maybe for nefarious means, maybe to try and cure some disease, I don't know if that part of it matters. Anyway, I wonder if people would be skeptical of the company's motives to the point where they don't want to give up their data or if they'd still just really want that cool DNA sequence art and to have a laugh about having 7% unexpected DNA.

buboard 8y ago

OTOH , with other public services (administrative, police, healthcare) you re not even asked to agree to the terms.

paulryanrogers 8y ago

> There's a feel-good statement elsewhere in the document about how the company won't disclose your info to third parties Can a lawyer answer whether or not such promises apply to an acquiring company, should they ever be sold?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]