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New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking
- jackbravo 8y agoDefinitely. I think the initial setup of an android phone is pretty similar to that of windows 10. You have to read everything very carefully to avoid all the dark patterns and hidden consents for tracking.
- baxtr 8y ago"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." Eric Schmidt, 2009
- fredley 8y agoThose who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. (edit, I'm posting this in support of the parent comment, as it has overtones of this famously chilling phrase)
- snazz 8y agoMy favorite Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument
- benschulz 8y agoThis attitude makes me so off the charts angry, I struggle to put it into words. I think Jews in Germany in the 1920s didn't think they were doing anything wrong, or feel a need to actively hide it.
- tossaccount123 8y agoIt's fascinating how obviously smart people can rationalize their actions. Schmidt and Google claim to be "progressive" but that kind of rationale of "nothing to hide" would mean that every progressive movement would have been shut down in its early stages had this kind of tech and surveillance been available at the time because it went against what was currently judged as right by the people in power
- jimmy1 8y agoWhat was the point of you pointing out Eric's claim to a particular political ideology after a statement of his intelligence? Are you somehow implying one is more virtuous / intelligent than another? If we changed that to conservatism does that your meaning or what you were trying to convey?
- tossaccount123 8y agoI was more pointing out how either side can hypocritically rationalize things that run counter to their supposed beliefs because they make money off being hypocrites. Nobody thinks they're evil, people can rationalize all sorts of crazy behavior.
- pdkl95 8y ago> Nobody thinks they're evil, I do, because evil is banal. Rationalizing crazy behavior is what evil usually looks like. Larger evils occur when "trivial" problems are ignored, allowing the deviant behavior to be normalized. Intentions are not relevant, because it's easy to rationalize away the craziest of behaviors. "No one involved in an extralegal activity thinks of themselves as nefarious. I'm a businessman, okay?" - Quark, DS9 S6E25
- zepto 8y agoSeems pretty clear that the comment was meant to show a conflict between Schmidt’s statement and his political leanings. I don’t see how this implies anything about a particular political ideology being more virtuous. Why would you even think that?
- _underfl0w_ 8y agoI sense some projecting happening here. You may want to re-read the parent, but without assuming that their tone is one of condescension.
- balls187 8y ago> It's fascinating how obviously smart people can rationalize their actions. It's the classic dilemma: "People ask 'Can we do this?' and rarely ask 'Should we do this?'"
- itronitron 8y agoSchmidt's attitude shows just how much Google thinks it owns the internet. There is so much data out there that people can live in relative anonymity online (95% of bloggers) however Google crawls and indexes so much that many things become quite easy to find. All the tracking and linking and indexing that is done without a person's informed consent makes that person's intentional behavior a warped spotlight back on them.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago> All the tracking and linking and indexing that is done without a person's informed consent makes that person's intentional behavior a warped spotlight back on them. Sure, but only in the minds of people who don't even know themselves, and can't make a coherent argument to save their lifes. They confuse the "data" they have on things with the things themselves, not to mention people -- same noobs doing the same shit, different day.
- mda 8y agoI think he was merely pointing out that All US companies are bound by US laws and when government asks them to dance they would eventually, reluctantly, dance.
- ionised 8y agoEric Schmidt is a horrible human being. Nothing surprises me coming from him.
- dang 8y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive comments here.
- Raphmedia 8y agoThese kinds of practices are still going on right now. See the Anti-gay purges in Chechnya that happened in 2017. "The Chechen police and military have conducted entrapment schemes, in which a victim is lured on a date, beaten and humiliated". According to some sources, those entrapment schemes where using online dating apps. Eric Schmidt's concept of privacy is so focused on the sort term where we live in free countries. Who knows what the future holds in store? Imagine if in 50-100 years the political situation gets really bad in the US and they decide to pass such a law. That hypothetical future government could simply get all the data from companies like Google and pinpoint their targets with scary accuracy. Imagine being jailed for web searches that you have done decades prior. As a trans person, that's the kind of things that keep me up at night. Especially since the ads that Google are presenting to me recently shifted and my shadow profile is clearly tagged as "trans" now.
- sneakernets 8y agoSame here, I noticed an odd shift to weird adverts when it started sending me random things that were shots in the dark, from makeup to house paint.
- tossaccount123 8y agohttps://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/ https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/ A good read on Google and Eric Schmidt's relationship with the State Department and federal government in general "There was nothing politically hapless about Eric Schmidt. I had been too eager to see a politically unambitious Silicon Valley engineer, a relic of the good old days of computer science graduate culture on the West Coast"
- colde 8y agoI am not sure that is really a trustworthy source at this point. Particularly since it seems to focus a lot on involving Hillary.
- tossaccount123 8y agobasically every claim is sourced as far as I can tell. Schmidt is pretty entrenched with Clinton considering he started a company dedicated to using tech to get her elected, Groundworks https://qz.com/520652/groundwork-eric-schmidt-startup-working-for-hillary-clinton-campaign/ https://qz.com/520652/groundwork-eric-schmidt-startup-workin...
- arminiusreturns 8y agoThat's a ridiculous assertion against a news org that has a better track record than just about any other news org in existence, and it's sad to see people falling for this line of thinking.
- creaghpatr 8y agoThat is a poor reason for casting doubt...that the facts are inconvenient to your politics.
- bduerst 8y agoAgreed. Wikileaks may have been reputable at some point in the past but they're not trustworthy now. It's not so much the 'focus on Hillary' but their focus on being pro-Russian state. [1] The founder of Wikileaks, Julian Assange, has his own show on RT [2], which mean's he's essentially being paid by Russia's state propaganda media [3]. That, along with attacking the Panama papers leak for "going after Putin", and a string of other pro-Russia activity, means Wikileaks is not to be trusted. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Allegations_of_Russian_influence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Allegations_of_Russi... [2] https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange-show/ https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange-show/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Propaganda_claims_and_related_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Propaganda_cla...
- bluGill 8y agoYou first: give me the passwords to your bank account.
- burkaman 8y agoAlso Eric Schmidt: https://money.cnn.com/2005/08/05/technology/google_cnet/ https://money.cnn.com/2005/08/05/technology/google_cnet/
- dredmorbius 8y agoQuote: Google Inc. has blacklisted all CNET reporters for a year, after the popular technology news website published personal information of one of Google's founders in a story about growing privacy concerns for the Internet search engine, according to a CNET statement. CNET on Friday reported "Google representatives have instituted a policy of not talking with CNET News reporters until July 2006 in response to privacy issues raised by a previous story." That story, by reporter Elinor Mills ran under the headline "Google balances privacy, reach." Google spokesman David Krane told CNN the company declined comment.
- burkaman 8y agoPersonal information obtained from Google: > To underscore its point about how much personal information is available, the CNET report published some personal information about Google's CEO Eric Schmidt -- his salary; his neighborhood, some of his hobbies and political donations -- all obtained through Google searches.
- maxxxxx 8y agoLet’s open source all their code and data in that spirit. I am sure they have nothing to hide.
- itronitron 8y agoInteresting that I remember this differently than how it is commonly quoted now. I thought (right or wrong) that he said "..., maybe you shouldn't be posting it online in the first place." which is easier to agree with than 'you shouldn't be doing it'
- nabla9 8y agoEric Schmidt has old person concept of privacy. >To the older generation, privacy is about secrecy. And, as the Supreme Court said, once something is no longer secret, it's no longer private. But that's not how privacy works, and it's not how the younger generation thinks about it. Privacy is about control. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/privacy_and_con.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/privacy_and_c...
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoHadn't seen that before. I'm about the same age as Bruce, and I often respect what he's written. Not this time. In fact I'd bluntly claim he's wrong. Let's not conflate privacy and secrecy and blame the old. Secrecy is not revealing the private conversations with a friend of the opposite sex is actually the surface of an affair. It would embarrass (or worse) if revealed. Privacy is not telling because there's no need, that's their business, but happy to tell SO if it came up for some reason. For the older generation privacy is about control and agency too. Who gets to know mum or dad is ill, what they earn, who can see or use their information or their photo, even who their friends or habits are. The expectation is all of that goes to those who need it or others at the sole discretion of the individual or couple. Volunteered at their discretion unless a job or mortgage depends upon it. They just share a lot less than the kid's generation, but not for reasons of secrecy.
- apocalypstyx 8y agoBeyond the obvious implications of this statement, it makes me consider Fredric Jameson's argument that the separation between modernism and postmodernism is that postmodernism replaces temporarily with spatiality. How this connects to Schmidt's statement is that it, too, denies the temporal dimension, in that an individual might have something they don't care is known, but that when is of prime importance, whether that be in in regards to what might be called more intense circumstances, or simply that, say, and author typically does not want the first draft of a book out there.
- enginaar 8y ago"Fascism is not about silencing one, it's about compelling one to say." Roland Barthes
- FabHK 8y agoBTW (I'm not a huge friend of Barthes :-) an excellent (and frightening) and short (!) book on this topic is Timothy Snyder's On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century. Highly recommended. Outlines the steps the Nazis (and other fascists) took to silence the opposition, get everyone slowly into line, undermine the "public sphere" and rational discourse, replace truth by obedience to power, etc. and then gives some hints what each of us can concretely do to stop these processes.
- dwighttk 8y ago"Google policy is to get right up to the creepy line..." -Eric Schmidt
- aboutruby 8y agoAlso, I think Eric Schmidt was not close to other Googlers ideologically, especially the founders.
- reaperducer 8y ago"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." Eric Schmidt, 2009 Where did he post his e-mail address and password so we can all have a look? After all, if he's not doing anything wrong, he has nothing to hide.
- levesque 8y agoI tried using Google Maps without search history turned on. It's basically a downgraded version. They tied saving locations with the search history, so it won't let you search for friends' contacts, set a home address, etc. Is it on purpose? I don't know, but I find it weird that they would tie some unrelated features together. Why does setting a Home address require search history?
- sf_rob 8y agoThey appear to have fixed this in the past year. I had the same issue.
- scottwernervt 8y agoI still get asked to enable web history to set my home address: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugdx10p8yfm24k8/Screenshot_20190201-102523.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugdx10p8yfm24k8/Screenshot_2019020...
- levesque 8y agoAs of last month it still wasn't the case for me. In the end, I turned back search history on, I decided to pay the 'price' for the features.
- maxxxxx 8y agoThat’s what they want and I am sure it’s very successful. Still very sleazy.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- feocco 8y agoBasically useless is pretty hyperbolic. Saying "Navigate to 12 John Street, Bullocks NY" is very simple. The main features work quite well without search history. Though I'd agree setting a home address shouldn't be tied to search history, if that's the case.
- mscasts 8y agoThis is scary stuff. Thank you norway for taking the fight against Google. How can you turn this off on an android?
- levesque 8y agoiOS is becoming more attractive by the day.
- mscasts 8y agoWell, I just turn my location services off. I can't stand the Apple ecosystem even if I have to give them a huge props that they take integrity way more seriously than Google. Maybe I should invest in a dumb phone.
- annapurna 8y agoThat's what it's become for me and my circle. Got my parents the older iPhones (6S) late last year and got the same for myself this month. I miss being able to access the local storage (one small hack I found was using the Firefox app local folder to store my files)
- bitL 8y agoDid the same with my parents (SE + 6S) and alongside iOS I use Jolla Sailfish and ancient Nokia N9 with Meego (both pure hackable Linux).
- kache_ 8y agoThey constantly berate you to deactivate no tracking preferences on google maps. When you're aware of this fact you start seeing it everywhere, not just on google. For example, on Pinterest they will berate you to sign up using highlighted buttons on land, and the x button is out of the way on the top right corner. This end result is due to product managers/devs looking at conversion rates and optimizing for whatever their metric of success is, which in this case is creating accounts and users being more "engaged" with the platform. 3 or 4 rounds of A/B testing and you get the most efficient (read: manipulative) method of getting users "engaged". There may be no intention of manipulation but using empirical evidence to achieve your metric of success will tend to make your product manipulative.
- Tepix 8y agoThe result of this A/B testing amounts to a dark patterns. A/B testing a user choice by manipulating him/her like that seems like a no-no.
- reaperducer 8y agoAnd sometimes A/B Testing is humorous. Like when online publishers like Ars and TechCrunch A/B test headlines and pictures and I end up with a photo of singer Taylor Swift accompanying an article about Apple's iOS programming language Swift.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoA/B testing is the way Satan interacts with this world. Optimizing for business metrics eventually leads to dark patterns, and also provides a convenient excuse ("data says so!").
- tripzilch 8y agoNot Satan but Moloch: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
- jimmytucson 8y ago
- sf_rob 8y agoThe thing that drives me nuts is (at least last time I set them up) Google Home and Android Auto both require Location and Web Activity permissions at an account level. I don't understand why Google just can't offer a subset of functionality on these devices rather than forcing you to have enable these permissions.
- northerdome 8y agoHonestly tired of Europe pretending like they are so high and mighty for flagging tech companies for "privacy violations." Frankly it's insulting to say that adults cannot decide for themselves how they want their data used. At this point, users know if you turn on Google tracks you. It is worth it to many for the convenience of quality results Google delivers. If it isn't turn it off. But to say it is Google's fault is nonsense.
- AlexandrB 8y agoThis is comical. I try really hard to keep Google from tracking me. I use DDG, FastMail, iOS, have pseudonymous accounts for logging into Youtube. But I know Google still has a pile of information on me through reCaptcha, trackers on various web sites (Google analytics for starters) and services that use the Google Maps API. So I'm left with the nagging sense that I'm still being tracked by Google, no matter what I do. There is no real choice available. Google will track you in some way, your "decisions as an adult" be damned.
- eckza 8y agoIt doesn't even matter anymore if they can tie your actions to your identity, so long as they can tie your actions to the information that they choose to let you consume.
- IanCal 8y agoGDPR/etc. absolutely deliver on this: > Frankly it's insulting to say that adults cannot decide for themselves how they want their data used All those laws really push is you have to actually let people know what you're using the data for, ask if you can (so that they're able to decide) and make sure you take care of it. It doesn't say you can't decide for yourself, it just makes it an actual decision.
- sidibe 8y agoGDPR does not allow you to trade services in return for using your data for ads. A website can't deny you service if you opt out of tracking, so EU has decided that business model should not be viable even if both parties agree.
- ThomPete 8y agoI for one are happy to be tracked so that my experience is optimal. Edit: I understand the potential issues and especially with someone like Google using it for other things. But I am more concerned about the backlash against using data to improve our world. There are many different areas which would be improved greatly from more data and would be to everyone's benefit. Personally I have always shared as much as I can as I believe that the more we share the more the problem corrects itself. But each to their own.
- snazz 8y agoI’ve noticed that there seems to be a correlation between tracking and advertising, so I get a better experience and less tracking if I avoid both.
- Tepix 8y agoI hope you never suffer bad consequences of giving up your privacy.
- ThomPete 8y agoIf i do most of us do :)
- burkaman 8y agoMe too, but that's not why Google is tracking me.
- annapurna 8y agoOf course you are and that's fair. Would it also not be fair to have these privacy settings available with any of the deceptive tactics mentioned in the report?
- AlexandrB 8y agoGood for you. If you ever change your mind, you'll realize that you don't really have a choice in the matter anyway.
- RankingMember 8y ago
- sborra 8y agoGoogle Maps works just fine with the GPS from my phone's sensors, but _every single time_ I bring up the app, it asks me to enable device location and Google Location Services. I stubbornly (and maybe foolishly) keep opting out of every Google tracking option, it's crazy how annoying they are if you do this.
- gdulli 8y agoThis happens to me too, various opt-in nags on both desktop and mobile. Using google maps has become a chore for me. I used to like going to the site or the app and browsing around for fun to learn about a new place. Now I only use it when I absolutely need to.
- corint 8y agoI'm now trying to use OSMAnd wherever possible. If there's a location I can't use it to find, I'll revert to Google Maps (and click 'no' to the opt in nag). When home, I'll make sure to update OpenStreetMap to make their map more useful. I'm convinced that open data is the better option. Certainly, I'm happy to volunteer my time and effort to contribute to things like OSM (and Wikipedia), but I'm loathe to part with my personal data for 'free' to a huge advertising behemoth.
- remusrm 8y agoOSMAnd sucks in the states. Can't find any standard address that all other GPS apps can. Its sad since I would use it more.
- _underfl0w_ 8y agoMy biggest gripe with OsmAnd is the fact that plug-ins are actually part of the source code, meaning that I would need to recompile the entire project to accommodate, say, a plug-in that could pull in traffic data. That's my largest use case for maps apps - avoiding traffic on my lengthy commute. There are some gross hacks to get traffic overlays on the map, but the navigation still chooses routes independently of that data (driving you right into traffic)
- enriquto 8y agoYou do not really need a study for that, just a few minutes of browsing with the uMatrix extension.
- arminiusreturns 8y agoI used to use ublock origin and noscript a long time ago, but now after years of browsing with umatrix, I say browsing without it is like having unprotected sex with the internet.
- lbj 8y agoAt some point we need to sit down and map, exactly what kind of information can be extracted from which meta-data sets. For instance, screen time is also sleeping habits, for some its toiletbreaks. If its toiletbreaks, its stomach/health related. Couple that with location, its eating habits and risk factors. Couple that with phonelogs its much much more. Once we have that mapped out, we can do an honest evaluation of whats being tracked, because every extrapolation possible will at some point be turned into usable data (my theory).
- auslander 8y ago> honest evaluation of whats being tracked And, next steps? Easier just to apply basic OPSEC into your life, no data - no extrapolations.
- onetimemanytime 8y agoGoogle no longer has the benefit of the doubt...these things would have gotten traction a few years ago. Or, Googlers, must be doing this to cure cancer or something, they're so good and nice. Now, all that goodwill gone.
- jerf 8y agoThis dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's for charity!" Not that this is news, but clearly Silicon Valley has no intention of retraining itself in any manner. Every wheedling trick in the book will be used to track you, up to and including holding arbitrary charities emotionally hostage.
- mancerayder 8y agoI think the ad-tech industry has tapped into what can only be called -- and no offense to anyone here -- "virtue signalling." There's no doubt studies done on this, hence the new "controversial" sort of nature of some of the advertising. Who knew that Gillette and Nike were so interested in social issues, and not a bottom line PNL result. In the same way, perhaps, Amazon marketing teams found some research to suggest that same "heart-string tugging" mechanism can be combined as a "sweetener" to get you to do things you otherwise wouldn't do -- like subscribe to "buy this too" notifications.
- aljones 8y agoIt is not a very conspicuous signal. I don't know which one of my friends use Amazon Smile. I don't think the dark pattern would work well if Amazon Smile was only social signalling. Seems to me it relies much more upon the fact that actual money is given to charities. Pretty gross of Amazon to add unrelated self serving conditions to such giving.
- ErikVandeWater 8y agoI think the question is whether we would prefer Amazon Smile to exist as it is or not exist at all. Even if there is a forced advertising aspect, it makes the world better.
- annapurna 8y agoAndroid users are pushed through a variety of techniques: Deceptive click flow Hidden default settings Misleading and unbalanced information Repeated nudging Bundling of services and lack of granular choices* Deceptive click flow is the click-flow when setting up an Android device pushes users into enabling “Location History” without being aware of it.* Hidden Default settings is [when] setting up a Google account, the Web & App activity settings are hidden behind extra clicks and enabled by default. Third one is users not given sufficient information when presented with choices, and are misled about what data is collected and how it is used. Repeated nudging is users being repeatedly asked to turn on “Location History” when using different Google services even if they decided against this feature when setting up their phone. And finally, bundling services when for example if the user wants features such as Google Assistant and photos sorted by location, Google turns on invasive location tracking. I would believe most of us HN crowd are fully aware of the pros and cons of such tracking and make our choices accordingly (using these tools/software/devices). However, for the majority (yes, they may not appear to be interested in privacy as yesterday's FB quarterly report shows), are they aware of how much data is being collected, how it could be misused, etc.? We, as a society, should do our part in pushing back against such indiscriminate tracking. No specific call to action. For my older parents, I have switched them to iPhone 6S and have gradually gotten older family relatives to do the same as well.
- ehsankia 8y agoI would've liked it if they included photos and videos of these "deceptive" interactions. Instead they have this flashy video which basically is just showcasing the Timeline feature, and pretending it's some secret malicious data collection plan.
- FabHK 8y agoDo you doubt that the deceptive interactions they describe exist as described? Most people do not realise how much data Google et al. collect about them, and are genuinely shocked when it is shown to them (even though, yes, it's an existing feature well known to you and most HN readers). The video demonstrates both a) how much Google collects (which comes as a surprise to most people), and b) that most people are not aware of it (which apparently comes as a surprise to you). > pretending it's some secret malicious data collection plan Of course, there's the maxim that one should never ascribe to malice what can plausibly be blamed on incompetence. But sorry, if you find these repeated dark patterns throughout again and again, in apps that have been carefully designed and optimised by huge teams of people, then it is justified to speak of bad intentions.
- sn41 8y agoThe privacy settings user interface on my Android is deceptive. It lures you into thinking that you have changed all the settings and does not show all the settings in one go. Google is creepy.
- bprasanna 8y agoRepeated nudging!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18863660
- diogenescynic 8y agoYelp is the worst about this. You can’t even use most features on the mobile website without downloading the app so they can suck up all your info.
- sudo-i 8y agoReddit too, they cripple their mobile website to force you into their mobile app and hence your data.
- monetus 8y agoOld.reddit.com still works okay for now.
- DoingIsLearning 8y agoAlso the '.compact' is still active and is more mobile friendly: reddit.com/.compact
- dspillett 8y agoThe reddit pattern doesn't work on all of us. I just use reddit less now it is less pleasant on mobile. I use it less when not mobile too as the changes there are not something I'm keen on either. Another example is sites like Amazon and Wish changing their adverts on facebook and elsewhere to take you to the Play store instead of to the product page you were interested in if you don't have the app installed. Again this doesn't work if, like me, you either give up at that point as you weren't that interested anyway or you google the product and get to their page or a competitor's that way. I think I'm in a minority though. I assume from the fact this behaviour is expanding, that enough people cave and install the apps it makes the few of use who do not worth losing from that sales vector.
- nmg 8y agoold.reddit.com still works well for me (as well as it ever did) on mobile. The login is (intentionally?) broken, so I use i.reddit.com to login.
- toss1 8y agoAll this tracking is obviously one-sided. I might not mind it so much if I had access to sufficiently granular data to make it useful, such as automatic workout tracking. I'm sure they have the data and the AI to notice that I'm on foot/bike moving at a higher-than-normal pace and on one of my usual workout routes. Or, to provide nice detailed reports of my commute (min/max, variance, total time, etc.)... But no, the only data we get is rough, 'you visited store X yesterday, want to review it?', when I actually only visited the much smaller store nearby... There is already starting a backlash from this massively greedy -- in both data & money -- culture. It would not surprise me to see it overshoot and seriously cripple the industry if the participants don't become a bit more self-aware.
- DogCalledMurph 8y agoGoogle Podcasts is the same. No subscribing to a podcast without Web History turned on. The message says its needed to get personalized recommendations.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 8y agoWhenever you tap a link in the iOS YouTube app, it starts nagging you to download Chrome, or continue with the old boring Safari... There's a pre-checked switch at the bottom of the dialog that says "Ask me which app to use every time". Now, even if you uncheck the switch and choose Safari, they will only let you off the hook for around a day; after this cooldown period you're "offered" to download Chrome yet again, ad nauseam! Just a gut feeling, but I think if I had installed Chrome once, they would never show me this dialog again... :) Seriously Googlers, how do you look into the mirror each morning?
- falcolas 8y agoIt's either "not my project" or "not my fault" (pointing at PM/Management/Marketing), or "it's actually a good thing". So, pretty much like everyone else associated with companies that do moderately shady things.
- hesarenu 8y agoChrome is just a safari skin. There is no freedom to choose browser render in iOS.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 8y agoYes. Chrome is just a Safari skin plus Google’s tracking. Which makes this dialog in the YouTube app even more ridiculous.
- Phenomenit 8y agoSame with the Gmail app. For the nth time I don't want to use chrome! So infuriating!
- sefrost 8y agoAlso, the Gmail app doesn't open links in the "proper" Safari app, so you're never signed in to anything!!! It's infuriating and I began switching e-mail provider because of it.
- gerbilly 8y agoI read an article a while back, that argued[1] that openness to tracking and surveillance may be linked to helicopter parenting. The argument goes that because millenials have been raised to be under continuous adult supervision, that predisposes them to view surveillance as benign and benevolent. [1] I can't find the source.
- lostmyoldone 8y agoThis was (essentially) the assumption that made me decide that teaching my daughter to expect privacy by respecting hers was the only way to go. It turned out well, and I feel like a lot of other positives emerged out of it.
- ingenieroariel 8y agoI have had to visit the #nixos channel in Freenode (IRC) lately on a computer with all tracking disabled and the Recaptcha that is usually just click and continue becomes a multi-minute endeavor finding street signs, cars and buses. You really get punished if you opt out of tracking.
- SquareWheel 8y agoWhich makes sense, seeing as they use account data and other heuristics to determine if you're a bot or not. The streetsigns are their fallback for when they don't have enough data.
- darkpuma 8y agoNo, it's not that simple. When recaptcha particularly wants to punish a user they start fading in tiles which doesn't make the captcha any harder for ML to solve, it only frustrates real humans. Furthermore, when the security level of the captcha is configured by the web admin to the lowest level, users are able to use a noscript version of the captcha. When you do this, it becomes clear that the javascript version is deliberately rejecting correct answers to make you solve more and more challenges just because they're in the mood to fuck with you. This becomes clear because the noscript captcha from the same IP and same browser will accept the correct answer the first time, every time.
- Crespyl 8y agoI'm sure this isn't done, but I do have to wonder if it'd be possible to identify a user by their unique behaviors when interacting with the extended Recaptcha puzzles. Something like writing style analysis, but applied to patterns of mouse movement, click timings and positions, or recognition rates for particular types of problems.
- jamiek88 8y agoIf it can be done it will be done seems to be the moral of these stories so lets hope not.
- mysteryjeans 8y agoI have launched yelp clone pagestan.com for Pakistan. And feeling helpless to compete against google's dominance. I am sure yelp is also reevaluating its business model
- dgroves 8y agoInstall searx on your own computer or in the cloud. https://asciimoo.github.io/searx/dev/install/installation.html#installation https://asciimoo.github.io/searx/dev/install/installation.ht...
- philamonster 8y agoActively having to take extra steps to just log out of any of their services is the biggest little deception. Once they changed their login screen (cannot even remember when) you had to click multiple extra times to remove an account explicitly or you were still tracked/logged in/Google was aware of you. I started deleting history in Fx whenever the browser is closed which helps with this but I have windows/tabs open for weeks for a reason and can't always close the browser. I've just some to accept the extra steps it takes to actually logout though it pisses me off slightly each time I do it. I've taken no steps to confirm they are actively getting info from my browser if I don't remove my account or if they are not if I do because I have turned off as much account data tracking/opted out of as much as I could for my Google account. But logging out of YouTube, which gives you no indication that you are actively logged in in the active browser window, and then going to mail.google.com will show you that Google is still aware of your account. Bullshit.
- sephoric 8y agoEthically I think the good old days of software products were superior to the current days of software services. Services are paid for by subscription or ads or selling data, so that they are forced to optimize for continued use. Products are sold as-is, with the hope that they are useful enough that enough people will buy them once and own it forever. It should work this way: you spend N months making a useful product that fills a real need, start selling it, and ideally make just enough money to cover the time you spent working on it. As soon as you start selling it and money comes in, you start working on another product. This has flaws though. You have to have the cash up front to pay your own bills for the first N months. And you risk not making up the time you spent. But what I see happening is worse: people make products that sell, get greedy over the money they can make, and milk that product to death, first by paid upgrades (which isn't inherently unethical) but then turning to subscriptions or free but selling you to ad- or data-companies.
- door5 8y agoWhat if we thought of software not as a product, or a service, but a utility or a public good? There doesn't seem to be any way to monetize software that isn't destructive to users, either through paywalls or tracking/advertising, so why not publicly subsidize its development and release it for free?
- wongarsu 8y agoIf you do that you still want to allocate money in a way that encourages constant improvement as well as rewarding successful radical new ideas. And that's not easy to do in a way that doesn't generate problems very similar to the free market. For example if "time spent in application" would be one of the metrics you use to allocate money then every user interface will be redesigned to require as many clicks as possible for frequent tasks, with fake loading screens in between.
- door5 8y agoI think there are ways to measure public good. Not perfectly, but certainly better than the market does. Open source libraries create a tremendous amount of public good, yet their creators are paid next to nothing. Meanwhile malicious practices like vendor lock-in, proprietary software and tracking are rewarded. There exist organizations that treat software as a public good -- Software for the Public Interest, GNU, the Linux foundation, etc. These are relatively small in terms of funding but have a disproportionately large positive impact. Imagine if an organization the size of Google or Microsoft existed like that with public money, or if one or more of the big 5 tech companies were nationalized? It sounds unimaginable because of the political climate in the United States, but I can't see how this would be anything but a good thing. Tech companies behave much more like infrastructure, and thus are in my mind a very reasonable target for public ownership.
- OmarGonzalez 8y agoFuck surveillance capitalism
- gerbilly 8y agoWord!
- proactivesvcs 8y agoI understand the article is not about web site tracking, but the Norwegian Consumer Council should not be permitting readers of that particular piece to be tracked by Google, or have an eight-month tracking cookie dropped by them. Either way, it's good to read another authority detail such unethical practises.
- ChuckMcM 8y agoThis aspect of Google (forcing you into full surveillance mode before they will enable services) is the reason my wife is looking at an iPhone for her next phone. To the extent that others follow that move will be interesting to watch.
- shereadsthenews 8y agoEven for those of us all-in on Google services -- like me with Gmail, Drive, Maps with history and sharing, YouTube Red -- iOS is way better. iOS and all the Google apps works great, and you can dump Google at any time.
- heywire 8y agoOn the subject of Dark Patterns, Linkedin has to be one of the biggest offenders. Almost every time I open their app (which isn't very often), they try to trick me into uploading my contact list. I wonder if it'll come to some sort of regulation that requires companies to respect your opt-out answer and not continuously badger you into opting back in.
- auslander 8y agoStop whining that Ad company collects data, it is in DNA. Just put some effort and un-google yourself. There is no free cheese (services, apps).
- Phenomenit 8y agoThe librem 5 can't come fast enough.
- marricks 8y agoPrivacy is like drinking water: no one in the US cares about it until it's on the news. Why don't people care about clean water? Because federal agencies set standards and test for them. You could bore someone to death talking about it until Flint happened. And sure some people buy water tests to verify they're not getting poisoned, or setup their own filtration systems but most people don't want to waste the time or don't have the knowledge. Just the same as privacy. Not every can or will get educated about privacy, and really they shouldn't have to, it should be a waste of their time. But it's not because we don't set standards for it. Most people give it away without knowing it's value only to have it bite them in the ass later through identify theft, data breaches, or eventually giving into a surveillance state where the government and big corporations know more about your than your mom does. This is why it needs government intervention, because without it corporations will claim to give you a choice every step of the way but no one will understand what those choices entail, and it turns out they'll badger and pester you to make the choices that benefit themselves. Relatedly, this is why I am OK with iOS being a walled garden. Sure, they make bank from it, but that incentivises them to make it protected. As I said in another thread, they're the only one capable and willing of enforcing privacy rules until the government steps up.
- daveguy 8y agoFTA: "Bundling of services and lack of granular choices - If the user wants features such as Google Assistant and photos sorted by location, Google turns on invasive location tracking." I unplugged my google home precisely for this reason. It wouldn't operate with all kinds of web and location tracking turned on. And when I turned them off it would only respond with something along the lines of "you have to turn on <tracking_feature_x> for google home to work properly." The hell I do. Amazon doesn't require me to turn stuff like that on to work just fine. It was blatant and a bit nauseating. After that I understood the google-free movement very well. I would still like an all-on-site voice assistant that respects privacy.
- _underfl0w_ 8y agoThere was an article posted here recently about a device that feeds white noise to devices like that until you give the new device they keyword it's looking for. It was supposed to look like a fungus or something. Lemme see if I can find the article... Wouldn't help with location tracking, but might put your mind partially at ease if you own a creepy home assistant thing.
- darkpuma 8y agoProject Alias. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18903289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18903289
- dreamcompiler 8y agoWhat Android desperately needs is an additional API layer that provides apps like Google and others with fake location data and fake contact data so there's simply no way they can tell that you're holding information back. Turning off these data sources just makes them use dark patterns to get you to turn them back on; spoofing the data is the real solution.
- _underfl0w_ 8y agoWhat you're looking for is called 'MicroG'. They even have their own LineageOS builds with it. Haven't tested it though, and it comes with its own set of security concerns.
- miguelmota 8y agoBig companies will break laws because they can afford to and the data they collect provides more value to them than the price of the penalty. Lawsuits like this have become the norm now and don't think it'll change any time soon. The majority of people will always choose convenience over privacy and remain on these platforms even after reading headlines like this.
- Sidious 8y agoThey ditched the don't be evil motto a while back, didn't they.
- einarfd 8y agoSo something that maybe not everyone knows, is that the Norwegian Consumer Council, is the Norwegian governmental entity tasked with protecting consumers right. I'm not a lawyer, but my take on this, is that this is a governmental agency in a GDPR country, triggering legal proceedings against Google for violating the GDPR. It is going to be interesting to see how this pans out, and imo. this case is going to be a defining case on what the GDPR is in practice.
- cityzen 8y agoA few years ago I made a comment about how funny it was that I would immediately delete all the Apple default apps and replace with Google apps (gmail, maps, etc). Now I'm back on the flipside and only use Apple Maps, Mail, etc. Unless Apple really F's up, they are going to win the privacy game and see a lot more usage of their native apps and services.
- MrZongle2 8y agoRemember when Big Bad Ol' Microsoft bundled their Web browser with the OS, and that was beyond the pale? That was so quaint.
- more_corn 8y agoGoogle is notorious for refusing to allow users to say no. They misread the book "Nudge" and use the nudge techniques t to shove or one could use less charitable descriptive words. e.g. I would like to make the choice to NOT bind my location data to my identity. In theory I can do that by not logging into Maps. In practice Google refuses to allow that choice, constant nagging, attempts to force their desired choice by nerfing logged out features. When you don't allow your uses to say no you're not actually providing them any choice at all. Google either needs to commit to allowing their users to say no or we (their users but also citizens) need to have our courts and governments force them to do it. Note to you Google folks reading this (I'm looking at you Larry). Seriously. Step up now because you will be sued for this, and you will force legislation if you continue down this path.
- 3xblah 8y agoScannning the comments here it does not appear anyone is considering the cost of network activity and bandwidth. The user is subsidising the tracking. Google does not pay for the cost of the user's internet access or her mobile data plan. In some cases, the user might only need an offline map however instead she is coaxed into accessing the same map over a computer network again and again, day after day, year after year. The cost of that access is carried by the user, not Google. Multiply this cost over millions of users. Users are paying, in many cases unnecessarily, to send tracking information to Google. When Google coaxes a user into accepting the settings that Google prefers (24/7/365 tracking), users are not merely agreeing to be tracked in exchange for something, a price not easily measurable and thus perceived as "free". Users are agreeing to pay for the costs of that tracking, namely the transmission costs to get the tracking data to Google. Those prices are measurable, though few users might be measuring them. Of course users are not opening an application and hitting a "send" button everyday to do this task; it is not conscious spending. They are permitting Google to do it for them in the background, using the user's CPU, memory, storage and bandwidth. None of those resources are "free". Whilst users may have generous amounts of privacy and personal data to trade away in exchange for some perceived benefit, users did not have to pay for those "assets". They might not put much thought into whether each exchange was truly necessary. On the contrary, users must pay for computing resources and internet access. It stands to reason that they might not wish to trade away those acquired assets where not truly necessary.
- shrimpx 8y agoI disabled web and app activity and then voice commands stopped working in Android Auto so I had to turn it back on. Why does Android Auto need my web and app activity to process sppech and search for me? Sheesh.
- FabHK 8y agoMy list of degooglifying actions: * switch default search engine to DuckDuckGo (can still use !s bang when one wants to see what Google has) * use tracking blocker (uBlock origin, BlockBear on iOS) * use anonymous/private/porn mode browsing most of the time (except for sites I actually want to be logged in permanently) * use Zoho as a replacement for shared Google docs * use Youtube either in private window, and/or download content with youtube-dl * use Apple Maps or OpenStreetMaps instead of Google maps, though still revert to Google maps sometimes. It's good. (But never log in, and don't use the apps). * long ago switched to different email for main email, and forwarded gmail account to it (nobody uses it anymore). (In fact, I use a catch-all domain now (very easy to set up), and a fresh email for basically every account. Quite handy.) * for contacts, photos, etc. I use Apple's built-in stuff. I do trust Apple a bit more (and it's a different business model; quite evidently unfortunately when you look at recent iPhone prices.) All in all, I think a fairly degooglified life is eminently possible.
- teekert 8y agoSame here, but I added Nextcloud in the basement for dropbox/google-drive/caldav/carddav/webmail. I do still have an Android phone (Lineage), I tried without play services... I gave up after 1 day.
- ultimoo 8y agoGreat list! You forgot to mention the browser, I personally use FF and have grown to like it though I miss Chrome occasionally. >long ago switched to different email for main email, and forwarded gmail account to it (nobody uses it anymore). Neat! How do you set up auto forwarding with gmail?
- jumelles 8y agoYou can set up a filter to match all emails and have them forwarded to another address. There may even be a specific forwarding setting somewhere in Gmail.
- swiley 8y agoEither Firefox is awful on windows or Chrome has something really great that I've totally missed. Chrome on Linux is just all kinds of unpleasant, it's not even possible to use it at all with my current distro. I don't understand how everyone seems to like it so much.
- oarabbus_ 8y ago"Don't Be Evil" kids!
- thsealienbstrds 8y agoDuh.
- jshowa3 8y agoKeep the karma points at 666 for humorous effect please.
- hypnotortoise 8y agoAnother example of Google not even trying to give the account holder an option to pause tracking is the purchase/order-linking feature for purchases history. They scan the users Gmail account for orders/receipts and quietly storing that information into the purchases history as can be seen by going to https://myaccount.google.com/purchases https://myaccount.google.com/purchases. Instead of giving the account holder an option to delete this history, their helper section vaguely mentions you can go to Gmail and "manage" the corresponding message. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7673989 https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/7673989
- pornel 8y agoMy "favorite" Google dark pattern is suggesting "Privacy Checkup" when I'm logged out. The checkup of course requires signing in. This is so cunning — they make it look like they care about my privacy, while in reality they upgrade from no tracking (signed out) to at least default tracking they allow themselves in the ToS.
- mda 8y agoWhy is this a dark pattern? There could be a lot of people who sometimes sign in and sometimes stay logged out, the privacy checkup is useful for them, even you might have some settings from past you might want to see. This is not a dark pattern, HN became hysterical.
- kowdermeister 8y agoIt's fun to just browse your location history. You can much more easily recall vacations, or other events you might have forgotten otherwise.
- Jenz 8y agoHaha! Much love to my home of Norway’s «forbrukerråd», i.e. consumers counsil.
- Marvin83 8y agoHow is this news worthy? Or news to anyone for that matter?
- nhumrich 8y agoYou cant use wear OS, or really any wearable on Android anymore without enabling location tracking. They bundle "low power bluetooth" settings in the same permission set as GPS in order to force you to leave it on at all times.
- throw2016 8y agoThere are more than 40000 individuals in Google in SV working to stalk you 24/7 and monetizing the data with different teams thinking up more ways and means to do it, other teams working on thwart any regulatory or other challenges to ensure business continuity, other envisioning a future in which they can grow this business unhindered. This is an entire organization devoted just to this, and they in turn enable ecosystems of hundreds of thousands all interlinked driven by profit. Yet on a technical forum which probably has a large proportion of people involved in this intimately as their jobs we do not have informed discussion, instead we pretend as if its not happening, or a one off by a 'misguided program manager', or the motives are 'benign' or unquestioningly accept self serving attempts to 'normalize' this surveillance dystopia. This is an insult to informed discussion and enables an environment and discussions where blatant bad behavior is consistently overlooked and control of standards that benefit toxic business models are glibly handed over without scrutiny, skepticism or challenge. And then when one day one wakes up in dystopia some will wonder how it happened, this is a culture of delusion.
- Buge 8y agoThe title is false. This isn't a new study. This is from 2018.
- atombender 8y agoSpeaking of Google Maps location tracking, are there alternatives (for iOS) that can let me track myself, without putting all the location data in the cloud? I want to disable Google's location tracking, but I want to know where I've been so that I can go back and recall. A sort of location diary. The only app I know about is Life Cycle, which is quite good, but it doesn't quite have the granularity I want.
- avallark 8y agoI didnt know about location history and web & app activity. It is indeed quite hidden and when I disabled them, i saw along with web and app activity, there was a bunch of other history google was storing like search history, browsing history etc. The really evil bit about Google is that, even when you disable them, Google does not delete the already collected history, they just "PAUSE" that so that they can keep old history.
- codedokode 8y agoThat is correct. In an earlier comment [1] I have checked what options are enabled by default when registering or adding a Google Account to an Android Phone. For example, checkboxes "Backup to Google Drive" and "Save web and app activity" are enabled by default. I suppose that many Android users might agree to these options without understanding completely what they mean or even without noticing because some of the options are hidden behind spoilers. Android is an example of a case where you become a product although you have paid for the phone. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18493084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18493084
- gandutraveler 8y agoI think companies will always find ways to track you. One solution would be to create a fake bot that will feed noise to these trackers by visiting random sites and doing random google searches on your behalf.
- captainsidd 8y agoGreat article, thank you for sharing. Love the list of deceptive practices - reads as a blueprint for what to avoid if you respect your users. The "data helps us understand usage and build a better product" narrative is all over these comments and in product teams. Revealed preferences are helpful for building better products. I suppose the story gets twisted when "better" for the business diverges from "better" for the user. Are there ways to achieve a win-win here by sufficiently anonymizing data or explaining why tracking is helpful and asking for explicit consent? Would love if anyone has links / reads on this.