19 ms·

64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

327 points by myth_drannon 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
4thaccount 8y ago
Heartbreaking. I'm only partially in what could be considered tech, but I constantly try to move groups in my industry every few years to constantly pick up new skills. I honestly think I have enough random skills now: databases, programming, systems integration, mastery of a variety of common industry tools, project leadership, specific domain theory and understanding of the math that underlays my industry. However, is it enough and if the whole industry fades, where do I go next?
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  The problem with tech is that if you did something just a few years ago you are considered "outdated" and this experience doesn't count. For example I wrote heavy duty C++ code until 2012 for more than 10 years but during interviews I often get zero credit for this experience. "You haven't used C++ 17".
  - 4thaccount 8y ago
    Seriously? Like how hard is it to go from C++ prior to 2012 or whatever to 2017? Would it take you a couple of months to get up to speed on the features in 2014 & 2017 that they're actually using? I can understand giving you a bit less credit than someone with up to date experience, but zero? It makes me so glad I'm not a developer.
    - monocasa 8y ago
      C++11 and up is legitimately very very different from C++03 and below.
      - eecsninja 8y ago
        But someone working on C++ prior to 2012 could still have encountered and experienced C++11.
        monocasa 8y ago
        Probably not, there was a really long latency between the spec coming out in 2011 and compiler support. Multiple years.
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        I am pretty sure I have used things like “auto” and anonymous functions around 2011. The support wasn’t complete but there was already a lot available.
        monocasa 8y ago
        Stuff like range based for would have just come out.
  - justaguyhere 8y ago
    When I was on my first job, we got a resume from someone twenty years older than us. Her resume was tossed aside quickly, but I fought with HR to get her to interview with us. She easily turned out to be the best hire ever for our team - she didn't know Java from assembly, but her common sense and problem solving abilities were orders of magnitude higher than any of the "young, hip, programming wizards" in the company at the time. If not for her, my team would've failed miserably. More than a decade later, I still fondly and humbly remember her. Any time I see younger folks ignoring/mistreating older folks, it annoys me to no end. As a industry, we need to learn to value experience and wisdom as much as we value speed and smartness. And we don't need to accept just because "HR said so" or "manager said so". At minimum, we need to make them understand that there are lots of older folks who can be great asset to the organization. end rant!
    - WalterBright 8y ago
      A well functioning organization needs a mix of younger and older people.
    - devonkim 8y ago
      To me, this is what bugs me about the “diversity” brigade - most of the time the conversation is based around ethnicity, physical abilities, or gender but for being long-term thinking we seem to have forgotten that diversity means _everyone_ that can contribute, including age / experience. Simply being old doesn’t necessarily make you better or faster, but it does tend to give you skills. Skills that were acquired over a long career. Skills that make them a nightmare for obscure bugs. Some folks I’ve hired were older than my father but I valued them for their experience in other industries and to lend their perspectives to how things should be. It is heartbreaking to think that we could be throwing away thousands or millions of man years of valuable lessons - some we should repeat and others we shouldn’t.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        That’s one thing I have noticed in all diversity material. It’s always young good looking people. There are no older, overweight, disabled or other types of people. It seems the diversity movement has changed the favored groups but I am not sure it’s much more inclusive.
  - tluyben2 8y ago
    Must be some recruiter saying that because I cannot imagine a tech savvy HR saying that to you?
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      In a sense it’s probably a filter. Reasonable people give me credit but especially a lot of young guys can’t imagine that people did valuable stuff 5 or 10 years ago.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    Yeah, only the last 2 years matter. It’s really funny, because I’d never worked in Node.js until like 6 months ago, but everyone at the company seemed to think I had years of experience. It’s surprising how well skills transfer.
- democracy 8y ago
  Our client was impressed with your skills and you are a perfect fit for the team, however your Angular 3.46 knowledge was not enough to consider you for this role at this moment. Please, feel free to re-apply! :)
maerF0x0 8y ago
I feel for this guy. Ageism is completely real and mostly missing from D&I initiatives. However there is a 2nd lesson to be learned here. Why in the world does he not have any savings at 64? The article is scant on details, but does mention he was in the computer industry from his 20s, and raised his son, say, until roughly his 40s. That leaves 20 prime years of earning power w/o savings? Something is amiss. To me this is the lesson learned. If you're in the IT space, live way below your means. Most of us should be earning fantastic salaries and saving it for the day when the same industry that called us "Rock Stars" dumped us as fast as one leaving their 15 minutes (read: years) of fame.
- standardUser 8y ago
  "If you're in the IT space, live way below your means." That translates to: "If you're in a high paying, in demand field, save more aggressively than if you're in a low paying field with limited opportunities" Honestly, those in the IT field should be able to get away with saving a bit below recommended levels, in part because pay is higher, in part because demand is growing with no signs of slowing down. It's all those other people who should be saving more aggressively!
  - solveit 8y ago
    I think what was meant was "If you're in a high paying, in demand field, save more aggressively (in absolute terms) than if you're in a low paying field with limited opportunities." Since you're getting paid more, you can put away more money while saving a smaller fraction of your paycheck.
  - chiph 8y ago
    You don't have to save as aggressively as the people working towards FIRE (financially independent, retire early) but given that the future is unknown, and that the industry does have ageism - saving as hard as you can from the day you graduate isn't a bad thing.
  - dmoy 8y ago
    I very much agree with this. We save >>50% of take-home in large part because I'm paranoid/convinced that this gravy train is going to make an unceremonious crash in the future.
harlanji 8y ago
Work-to-hire needs to be more prevalent. Start this guy off as a janitor so he can work his way up. No American feels above mopping floors, in case you, hiring manager, were unaware. Source: unemployed techie who gardens and moves in Silicon Valley, for people who would love to hire me if they had a computer job and is dodged by recruiters.
- __float 8y ago
  ...why should he start as a janitor when he has years of experience doing the jobs he's apply for?
  - MisterOctober 8y ago
    Yep. Also, most companies won't hire people who are massively overqualified for unskilled [or lesser-skilled] positions. In fact, many managers view unused skills as a waste [e.g., in the "Lean" philosophy / cult, it's called the '8th muda or waste'] and are specifically wary for that reason among others. now of course, it's not always interpreted as a negative incentive to hire certain folks due to their having skill A, but instead to use skill A if someone has it -- but I have certainly heard it interpreted as one of the reasons to avoid overqualified candidates].
    - oh_sigh 8y ago
      I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reasoning is there was a threat to power that would come from an overskilled person taking a position. For example, that overskilled person may not fall for certain lies or controlling aspects that the manager uses on actually-unskilled labor, who presumably don't have industry experience or are too afraid of losing their job to cause a fuss.
- a3n 8y ago
  Janitors are no longer directly hired, they come through a service. It's the service that's hired, and workers with anonymous faces just show up. There is no "work your way up" from those positions. Not anymore. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-rising-inequality-consider-the-janitors-at-two-top-companies-then-and-now.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-risi...
WestCoastJustin 8y ago
The population of this town is 6,300 [1]. This area of Canada is not known for tech (at all). I totally feel for this guy, it must totally suck, but moving might be a good option too. Or, try starting a business or remote work, if you have to live there. These are all hard things to do, but if you are really down and out, all options should be on the table. Or, look for something in a different line of work, where maybe you can leverage your tech skills? I know this isn't what the thread it about, as age is a major theme here. But, this seems like a little clickbait given there are likely not many jobs in this town. You could likely burn though all the job postings in a few days. I know this comes across as totally tone deaf too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentville https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentville
- jbarham 8y ago
  Yeah, as soon as I saw that he was from Nova Scotia I thought that's his main problem right there. (I say this as a Canadian.)
- mikekchar 8y ago
  The number of people I know who would kill to be able to move back to Nova Scotia is absolutely huge. Whatever jobs there are will have huge competition and very low wages. I'm kind of in the same boat. 51. Working remotely while living in rural Japan. If I lose my job (or quit), it's either get another remote job or move. If I can't get a remote job quickly, I will not wait to find someone willing to relocate me -- I'll be on the first plane to somewhere huge where I can get a job.
towaway1138 8y ago
I'm only in my 50s, but this is very relateable. Did a couple dozen interviews a year or two ago before finally getting a bite. Somewhat amazingly, even passed the hiring committee at a FANG, only to get swatted down by a rare strike from the executive level. In one interview, was asked to produce a class that could serialize and deserialize a list of numbers, to/from a string of chars. Sure, it's not that hard. Took maybe ten minutes? A few tests, it worked fine. They declined--"your skills seem rusty". Huh? I'm in good health and much better financial situation than the guy in the story. But without being too grim, I've accepted that someday I might run completely out of money. If I can't get hired in tech, I'll give McDonald's a shot--it's honest work. Failing that, I'll make my graceful exit.
- goalieca 8y ago
  i'm not really understanding the tech sector. There's often the criticism that we keep reinventing solutions to old problems. And here you are, with presumably 30 years of experience, and no one wants to take a chance?
  - eecsninja 8y ago
    Maybe the people complaining and the ones doing the hiring aren't the same.
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  I find it disturbing he can't find work as a project manager. If anything, that's one role where the practitioners typically know fuck-all about nothing and where good ones are worth their weight in gold. I LOVE to work with ADULT project managers who have a clue about how projects actually unfold and how things actually get done with a wide variety of personalities in the mix. Instead, more often than not, you get 20-30-something "management fast-track" wannabe's who could not solve a problem to save their lives.
  - perryh2 8y ago
    In today's world of agile development, I haven't met any project managers worthy of anything. I feel that strong product managers are capable of managing development as well. I can't believe there are actual people getting paid to move JIRA tickets around full-time.
myresume 8y ago
I have experienced this myself. I am going on 50. I am actually looking for work now. And I have kept up and I am using modern tech stacks. http://geoffreycallaghan.com http://geoffreycallaghan.com
- x0x0 8y ago
  fyi, this may work better if you say where you are. I looked and am assuming NJ from the 908 cell.
  - throwaway24572 8y ago
    Greater NYC Area.
- WestCoastJustin 8y ago
  You should totally check out the whoishiring threads. They are packed with job listings (lots of remote too). https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring
- scarface74 8y ago
  I don’t know where you are. But with that skillset, recruiters should be throwing jobs at you in most major American cities. I know for a fact that recruiters in Atlanta would be salivating at the chance to placd you. As I said before, I am in my mid 40s.
  - Washuu 8y ago
    The place I work for will be hiring within the next six months, budget approval pending, and this is basically a resume that would put someone towards the top of the stack.
  - aiyodev 8y ago
    “He has all those skills but doesn’t have a job? Must be something wrong with him. I know several people his age and they all have jobs.”
avmich 8y ago
1) Have a friend (more better) who can hire you. It's usually better to look for programming work when you're employed. 2) Work (or rather, look for work) remotely; this is already mentioned. 3) Work through a contracting company, preferably owned by you. Let somebody else - maybe much younger if needed - do negotiations with customer companies. After those companies start seeing your work, age issues can be reduced.
akeck 8y ago
I wonder if he'd have an easier time as a architect/IT-planning consultant. Clients may perceive less financial risk and grey hair might actually be an asset. I'm acutely aware of my ticking career clock after reading several of these stories in the last year.
zmmmmm 8y ago
It's tragic and I wish younger devs could have even a small understanding of how pernicious this phenomenon is. No, you won't escape it because you're awesome, or because you love learning new things etc etc. I'm lucky: I switched into a role where deep domain experience is essential, I did a PhD, I'm one of the top experts in a growing field - I'm more or less insulated from this. Indeed, now I hire people and I'm actually one of the perpetrators of it. We get resumes, I look at them, and inevitably many of the younger people are both (a) cheaper and (b) more on-target with their skill sets. Then there is a much more subtle and non-explicit discrimination on top of that which involves a presumption that an experienced person will not be "happy" working in what they would perceive as a junior level role. That they would find another position and leave. So they honestly can't win - if they don't have the skills they don't get hired, if they do, it is presumed they are too experienced to be happy in the job. There must be a massive wave of ageing developers that is coming that is 10x the size of what we have seen so far. Something will have to change somewhere, hopefully it will help us all discard some of these discriminatory practices.
- JauntyHatAngle 8y ago
  I'm a (relatively) young developer, and I already worry about it. I enjoy and love working with new tech, I jump to new frameworks and ways of working quite often because it's good fun. I don't think that'll ever change. I'm already worried for the day where I won't be able to do that because people won't perceive me as a young, hungry up and comer wanting to attack problems, and instead they'll see me as an entrenched, slow, older worker trying to tackle stuff best left to the young'ins. When that day comes, I can see myself just setting my roots in a long term role in a particular tech that won't change, and I'll probably be bored out of my skull. I can envisage myself ending up going into management just to escape that. The best teams I've worked with were the teams that had a mix of young and old, it balances a team the same as having a good gender split imho.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Ageism is overblown. The way to get a job for an older worker - I’m in my mid 40s - doesn’t change no matter what your age is. Make sure you have skills that the market wants, don’t get complacent at one company and keep your network warm including local recruiters.
skizm 8y ago
I feel like there is less of a stigma for older contractors. Might be a good idea if you’re getting older in a tech career to shift from full time to contract work?
- UnpossibleJim 8y ago
  Health insurance is a son of a bitch when you're older, though =[ it's not necessarily a bad plan, but those insurance rates go through the roof.
  - WestCoastJustin 8y ago
    He's from Canada. We get basic medial coverage for free. Well, if you are not working it is free, if you are working it is like $50-100/month (depending on your pay level). This is often covered by your employer too, again if you are working. So, there is no real issues there as he gets older.
    - UnpossibleJim 8y ago
      Oh, that's awesome! Remind me to move to Canada... Vancouver isn't too far from Seattle =) tax rate isn't that much higher, these days, either from my understanding (depending on your income). Edit: Though, you guys aren't taking us in anymore as easily, these days, though huh? =) I say this all mostly in jest. I do think things will even out here and cooler minds will prevail, eventually.
      - pinewurst 8y ago
        Vancouver tech salaries though are terrible by comparison with Seattle or even Toronto.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- porpoisely 8y ago
  That makes a lot of sense since the company isn't as invested in a temp/contract hire as opposed to a full time employee. Hiring managers might be more willing to take a chance on an older contract worker than an older full time staff. And frankly speaking, the guy is a temp/contract worker whether he realizes it or not. Even if he secured a full-time position, he'd be the first to be laid off during a recession or downsizing. But to be doing contract work at 64 can be rough. Is he willing or able to travel/commute at that age? But definitely something to consider.
Zigurd 8y ago
So far, this hasn't been my experience. I've written books. I have a very strong network among funders and experienced management. I'm probably in the top few percent of candidates my age because I consciously built those advantages, some of which can't be reproduced by everyone in my age cohort looking for a job. But, just because I saw ageism coming at me, doesn't mean that it is excusable. Age discrimination is something that needs to be eradicated in tech as much as sexism and racism. I won't mince words: I mean sexism and racism, not "lack of diversity." Ageism is just as bad. Investors: If your portfolio is infected with these diseases, it raises your risk. Inoculate against it. Don't fund diseased founders.
- barrkel 8y ago
  Indeed. By definition, not everyone can be in the top few percent.
  - Zigurd 8y ago
    I hope it's clear that that is effect and not cause.
shard972 8y ago
Why hire a 64 year old when you can hire a PHD straight out of india for less?
omgoodness7 8y ago
A portion of y’all are 20 somethings who do not know real life. Refrain from giving life advice.
- tasuki 8y ago
  Wasn't that the whole point of this: not to discriminate based on age?
throwaway24572 8y ago
So here's some hiring anti-patterns I've seen, it's not just millennial managers, but I've seen these patterns in lots of companies and interviews. 1. Managers that want to hire people they could be best friends with. Drinking buddies, social media socialites, etc. Don't confuse this with hiring their best friends, they just feel more comfortable around people that they could socialize with. 2. Managers that don't want anyone to undermine their technical authority. And the best way a manager with 5 years of experience can keep his authority is to not hire an engineer with 20 years of professional experience. 3. Managers that think the culture of a company would turn more boring if they hired middle-aged workers. So they must hire young people only. They can usually get away with it if they hire 80% college graduates mostly. 4. There must be something wrong with the person if he didn't get into management by the age of 50.
- pacomerh 8y ago
  #1 and #3 you can probably avoid by working remotely. The thing with remote work is, companies usually look for devs with above average skills, they also look for devs with previous remote experience and of course awesome communication. As for #4, that's a difficult one, I think you could probably get around #4 if you have a great portfolio of working projects
- pandapower2 8y ago
  >4. There must be something wrong with the person if he didn't get into management by the age of 50. This idea amuses/saddens me. Personally, i know a few older technical people (myself included) who have been managers and chose to return to non-manager work. Non-developers (including non-technical managers) seem to have real trouble accepting that someone would not want to be a manager. Hands on techies usually get the attraction of spending your time building stuff Vs going to meetings, shielding your team from political goings on, taking calls, setting budgets, and moving jira tickets around.
- sakoht 8y ago
  There is a natural repercussion for being a manager who passes on talent, and hires something less. You lose. Unless you are in a company where being good doesn't make a difference. Working in a company that hires poorly is its own punishment. Dodge the bullet.
woogiewonka 8y ago
I'm a consultant in my 30s and I worry about my 50's and 60's. I feel like, if I don't get a recurring revenue product going that sells itself without the trade of time for money, I'll be totally screwed. I've tried and failed a few times on various projects, and it feels like time is running out. There are definitely fewer attempts left in me and it takes a hell of a lot of energy to stay positive and try all over.
thisisweirdok 8y ago
When I was in my upper 30s I was mistakingly included in a reply-all email from someone who interviewed me and said I seemed kind of old for the position. I was ready to lose my shit on them but my wife made me wait a day before responding when she saw how angry I was. I was considering hiring a lawyer to sue the shit out of them for discrimination, but at the end of the day I brushed it off with a snarky "at least I'm experienced enough to double check who my illegal emails are going to" and told them I was reporting it to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (which I did). This was years ago, and I've always been well employed, but I'm still a little mad about it. I did find out through an acquaintance that the person who mistakingly sent that email was fired almost immediately and they were pretty worried about a lawsuit. The struggle is so real. It's insane.
- hackits 8y ago
  Playing devil advocate here. Have you considered you're too old? Maybe during the interview process they didn't consider the experience you could bring to the table with your knowledge and expertise would be a valuable asset to the business? You deferred all your decision making to your (sic) wife. You should really take a step back and consider are you able to make decision without the consultation of your significant other? To me, I would say the interviewer made a wise call and said he thought you where too old for the position. Your emotional outburst seems to be more a problem that the interviewer had a feeling about you? [Replying to the down votes] You cannot grow as a individual without having a open discussion.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- JauntTrooper 8y ago
  I’m pretty sure protections against age discrimination only kick in federally if you’re 40 or older, though some states may expand it to younger workers.
  - thisisweirdok 8y ago
    Maybe, but that seems kind of crazy as I had tangible proof of age discrimination. It's not like they'd say someone who was 38 was too old and someone who was 42 would suddenly not.
cyberferret 8y ago
As an aside from the OP, I am 52 and building a startup. I often get the feeling when talking to accelerators and angel investors etc. that they balk when seeing my age. Experience doesn't seem to count for much these days - they seem to be looking for 20-something old young people who are prepared to 'hustle' and 'crush it' and work 20 hour days. I am willing to bet that most founders who started their companies 10+ years ago would struggle to get a job at those same companies now if they approach them as an applicant off the street today.
- ilamont 8y ago
  In startup accelerator world, people with white hairs are brought in when the the team needs an "adult" to manage things. At an earlier stage, having someone who is 35 or 45 or 55 or 65 might make the VCs and advisors feel awkward.
irrational 8y ago
I'm in my mid-40s and I worry about this - a lot.
- tmm84 8y ago
  I'm in my mid-30s and I worry about this a lot too. This age has no concept of human lifespan.
cottsak 8y ago
If you're listening David, here are my suggestions. Keep in mind I don't have nearly the wealth of experience you would obviously have. * Refresh both http://www.avidaid.ca/ http://www.avidaid.ca/ your websites with a modern feel http://www.avidaidmedia.ca/ http://www.avidaidmedia.ca/ Hire a designer for a fixed price on https://www.upwork.com/ https://www.upwork.com/ or other freelancer site. Your potential employers will look you up and they don't want to find dated visuals like these. If you don't want to refresh the look of both sites, then take one down. An asset should make you look good, not detract from the perception it might create for you. * Make sure your site(s) are HTTPS. Get on google and figure out how to do this (or pay the upwork freelancer to do it) and then it can be a talking point in an interview (how passionate you are about security and privacy, for example). * Remove the word "President" from "President, Senior Project Manager and Consultant at Avidaid Inc." on your CV/linkedin. If you're going to a PM or consulting role then you have to have other roles which show you've done this recently. The "President" thing could work against you: "wow, this guy probably wants way more then we're prepared to pay" * Maybe try dressing down just a tad - a some nice chinos or a collared shirt but not tucked in perhaps. I'm kinda spitballing here so just have a think about it. If the companies have heaps of younger folks then maybe you could do something to make them feel a little more comfortable in the interview. I personally know I'd be pretty intimidated if a candidate came in all suited up for a PM role. I'm not saying you want the "golf course" look. Just something a little more relaxed perhaps? * Lastly, the "corporation" and "us" language on your website avidaid.ca is not going to work in your favour I don't think. Your linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ and the tired website suggest there are heaps of folks working at your consultancy. I can only assume this is a false pretence given the CBC article. I would prefer to see a portfolio which talks about "you"!!! (personally) and highlights projects, interactions and specific work-related interests which you are likely to be passionate about. This will excite me as a hiring manager. I hope this helps mate.
- freewilly1040 8y ago
  Those sites are rough. Another option is a website builder like Squarespace, Wix, or Weebly. Might be cheaper than Upwork and will at least get you started with a decent layout / theme.
butterfi 8y ago
I'm starting to notice that in the Bay Area, older tech workers are more stable then fresh transplants, simply because we've been around long enough to get affordable housing. I make about 15k less then I might otherwise, but its not really an issue for me because I own my home.
djhaskin987 8y ago
My father started feeling this in his 50's, then he got his master's degree and his callback rate increased significantly. Now he's in his 60's he's getting a PhD so he'll be marketable as an old guy, even if that is just as an adjunct professor.
- hpcjoe 8y ago
  FWIW, the adjunct role is very low pay, for quite a bit of work. They pay you for contact hours. 2 lectures per week is 2-4 contact hours. They don't pay you for time grading, traveling, answering questions/office hours, etc. I've looked at doing that (PhD and over 50) to augment my own income, but the time commitment is huge, compared to the compensation.
MrTonyD 8y ago
Just for a counterpoint that I know will be attacked - Why not create plenty of jobs? Let's say we want programming jobs for everyone, just start adding constraints to what can be sold in the country based on whether that company hired programmers in the country. Are there people who want to do more woodwork? Well then start adding some limits to importing products built with woodworking skills. It doesn't have to be "all or nothing", it can target creating the jobs desired by the community. I know this would take a lot of work to get right, and there would be costs, but it sure seems like it would be worth it to create a society where everybody could do the type of work that they desire.
pvaldes 8y ago
He knows where is the problem but does not use this knowledge to take a proactive stance. "yes I know that I'm old, BUT shouldn't be a problem for the job because... (I keep learning, update my skills often, can do X) ... etc, etc"
- WaltPurvis 8y ago
  >>take a proactive stance What would that entail?
  - ben509 8y ago
    Someone else mentioned dressing less formally. He can work out. He could also dye his hair and... keep in mind the guy is fairly desperate here... wear makeup. https://slate.com/technology/2013/09/men-should-wear-makeup-looking-younger-and-better-isnt-just-for-women.html https://slate.com/technology/2013/09/men-should-wear-makeup-...
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    Address the point in the first minutes of the interview and turn it into an advantage. If the other part is nervous about your age, talk casually about how this will not be a problem. Be humble, calm, and redirige the conversation toward focusing in your best skills, from more modern to more old techniques. Skills that you can offer because you are not so young as the other candidates, and you love your job enough to keep trying even if you not became an unstable rockstar/diva programmer. Agree that dying the hair a little, at his home would help. Just to pass from all white to some shade of grey. A 64 man with silky black hair would look ridiculous.
sakoht 8y ago
I'm 45 and I know a bunch of people far older than me who are highly-valued on their teams. Even in Silicon Valley I found younger engineers enjoy working with super-experienced people _IF_ those years actually translated to expertise. What you can't do is sit on your ass for decades then expect to be rewarded for treading water when the cozy job at BigCo finally dries up. All of the computing industry gets more competitive each year. Age gives you a head start if you are _actually_ using the time to keep growing, IMO. Often, people get older and get comfy and stop learning, or they lose the ability to related to younger talent on the team, which is just an essential business skill, like it was when you were young and had to relate to older people. And, if you actually have real skills, but a company won't hire you because the leaders think superficially, you should filter them from the list of companies you stake your future on.
jswizzy 8y ago
I have had to work with plenty of older programmers and it's always a bad experience. The boomer generation are not team players and they will use office politics to sabotage anyone who they perceive as threat to them. I have to deal a guy now who complains about ageism all day and talks about how experience he is and how he did x great thing but I have to explain simple programming concepts to the guy and agrees and looks down on me all.
- eecsninja 8y ago
  Sounds like working with bad programmers. I worked with a lot of younger programmers who were lazy and less diligent than I expected from others at the same FAANG company. Bad experience too.
maa5444 8y ago
you have to expatriate ... only solution for you ... go in a less developed country where your experience counts
avodonosov 8y ago
Unsatisfied expectations of the interviewer? Maybe it's better to list full experience, instead of limiting to 20 years? And mention the age. To prepare them better, rather than surprising. At least he would need to spend less time on interviews with people not ready to hire a 64 year old, and only talk to people who are ready.
- democracy 8y ago
  That is not a good advice. If you wait for this ideal role for your skills/age - it might never happen. They will not agree you are an ideal candidate even if you tick each checkbox from your perspective (or someone else was quicker or cheaper or whatever). One should try every opportunity as the things are very often unpredictable in the job search quest.
  - avodonosov 8y ago
    IMHO the opportunity reduces if you plan to surprize them at the in person interview by the difference between the impression your resume makes and the reality. They invited a different guy than shows up at the interview - it's difficult to call an opportunity.
draw_down 8y ago
The crazy thing about the ageism in our industry (perhaps others but I wouldn't know) is that it's the one form of discrimination we all will face, unless we die or get so rich as to never need to work again. Yet it tends not to get covered in any diversity/inclusion, at least as far as I've seen.
randyrand 8y ago
Just curious: why do age discrimination laws only disallow discrimination against older ages? Even if discriminating against people age 20-30 is more rare, what's the advantage of allowing it? It seems like a hard sell to say "you should care about age discrimination" but to enact age discriminatino laws that literally discriminate based on age. Maybe this moral inconsistency is why more people don't care/do more about it.
decentrality 8y ago
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett
randomacct3847 8y ago
My singular focus right now as a “Millennial” is to save enough before 40 to retire if I choose to and, at the same time, figure out how to become self sufficient so that I am not reliant on someone else for income by 35. Effectively I want to “retire” from having a “job” working for someone else long before I “retire” from earning income.
- sridca 8y ago
  What's the catch though? Higher stress during 20s and 30s?
  - randomacct3847 8y ago
    High earning job and living well below means with a good amount of luck
    - marketgod 8y ago
      Look into index funds and Bogle heads lazy portfolio. There are communities dedicated to financial independence (FIRE) on the internet that can help you with these goals.
ctrager 8y ago
I'm retired and I think my money situation is good but STILL when I read the article and comments I feel a spike of anxiety, PTSD-like.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
steve_taylor 8y ago
Someone on HN recently recommended a book called Developer Hegemony and I'm a bit over a third of the way through it. If you're starting to approach the age where discrimination will become an issue, and you're of the opinion that you'd better start climbing the corporate ladder as high and fast as you can in order to avoid unemployment, I recommend reading at least the first 1/3 or so of this book. (I don't yet know what the remaining 2/3 is about.)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rmason 8y ago
You want to know a secret for finding engineers as a startup? Be open to hiring any fifty and over engineer that you verify can do the work. Word will get out and you will be flooded with qualified applicants. I can imagine telling your VC's, oh no we don't use agencies and spend at most 5% of the CEO's time on hiring. When they express puzzlement just tell them a wise mentor gave you his secret.
- taftster 8y ago
  Yeah, I don't get this age-ism thing at all. I'm approaching my 50's, and I'm still climbing in my effectiveness and productivity. I haven't even yet reached the top of my game yet. I am getting better every year. Proportionally, I bring to the table 5-10x (at least) greater value than those just-out-of-school with no experience. But I'm only paid 1.5x of their salary. Granted, there are some folks out there that have been slacking off their whole careers, and after 20+ years, they're very good at it. But in terms of dollar spent to unit of value, I believe mid-career folks like me are way more economically valuable overall.
redleggedfrog 8y ago
I wonder how much this applies to any type of manager, not just a software project manager. Is the ageism a problem with tech, or just a problem?
fecak 8y ago
Professional resume writer and career consultant here, approaching 50, and I’ve helped rehabilitate careers of many clients in similar situations. The line that caught my eye was his quote “I have been unemployed for a long time." I believe the stigma of extended unemployment is worse than ageism. What I do is a mix of marketing (maximize assets, minimize liabilities, optimize everything), strategy for job search (beyond “spray and pray” resume broadcasting), and building confidence for interviews and the general approach. You have to believe you’ve earned a seat at the table. There is always more to stories like this. Qualified candidates can overcome ageism with proper understanding of the market conditions.
- jrumbut 8y ago
  I'd like to believe this but I've seen some really great contributors just get unlucky for 6 months or more, and then all of a sudden it's been a year and things are starting to look strange. It's a great market for developers to get hired, but it's still possible to fall through the cracks especially if you aren't good at the specific skill of job searching.
  - fecak 8y ago
    I appreciate the thoughts, and luck does play a part but there are definitely methods to maximize your chances. I tend to find many older workers aren’t aware of how to find a job in the modern market or how to best approach companies. Job search has changed significantly in just the past few years, let alone the past decade.
democracy 8y ago
I also find it interesting as with the experience it is more difficult to answer certain interview questions. 10 years ago a question like "how do you make sure your code changes in production do not cause outages" wouldn't cause me any headaches but now I am getting stuck as this is something I can talk about for hours and I need to know the context and the details of it so I start thinking what the scope of my answer should be and what they want to hear from me in the next minute or two and that I probably have to squeeze my experience into this two minutes and it is hardly possible so what should I start with? While I am thinking about all this, it probably looks like I have nothing to say at all. It's sad :)
purplezooey 8y ago
These workers often outperform younger ones. It's well known. To make such poor decisions as a manager they are disadvantaging their own company.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
john_moscow 8y ago
Disclaimer: I don't approve ageism in tech, I'm merely trying to explain the reasoning of the other side of the negotiation table. The unspoken truth about the job market is that the older you get, the more you should rely on your network when finding jobs. Simply maintain professional contact with 5-20 people that worked with you, know that you can deliver and would recommend you (citing the projects you successfully completed together), hire you directly, or at least give you a gig. Yes, it's a completely orthogonal skill to doing the actual job, but this is something that successful hires do. So if a 65-year-old person files a cold-call application for a management position (that involves building professional relationships with your colleagues in order to make things succeed), it is very reasonable to ask what happened to their network and why nobody from the network would not have recommended them. The article actually gives a hint when it mentions selling the assets and accumulating credit card debts. I'm sorry to say that, but this is an evidence of poor resource management. A good resource management strategy in this case would be: 1. Damn, I've lost my job. OK, I have X months on runway. Let's try to find another management position. 2. Oops, my runway is at 80% with no offers. I get 10% conversion ratio from applications to interviews and 0% from interviews to offers. Let's cut down expenses and try experimenting with what I do on the interviews. 3. Crap, runway is at 60%, still no offer. Let's kick down and try to find a dev position. 4. Runway is at 40%, no offer as a dev, still 100% cutoff after the interview. Let's try to apply for a remote position. 5. Runway is at 20%. Get a freakin' trade that people can realistically do in my age, secure recurring income, try to step up and find a remote dev job. Nothing personal, but if you cannot manage that, you will likely not succeed at managing a multi-million dollar software project either.
- hpcjoe 8y ago
  This. On the network. This. For you young whippersnappers (say up to 35), get out, talk to people. Get known. Go to conferences. Establish a reputation. For you older folks (36+), you might not believe you have a network, but LinkedIn is, despite being crappy in a number of ways, a reasonably good tool for growing your network, connecting with people, and so on. I am not talking about its "jobs" features. I am talking about reaching out and connecting with good people you know, who happen to be networked to someone you might like to meet.
eweise 8y ago
This story scares me. I'm not that far off from my 60s and still have kids to get through high school and college. My strategy is to keep my tech skills even as I move more into management. Hopefully, after I'm deemed to old to work in silicon valley, I can still do remote contract work slinging code.
Overtonwindow 8y ago
This is what I fear the most. Fortunately I am in an industry that values age and experience over youth, but requires that experience to consistently advance.
swayvil 8y ago
Engineering is for the young and stupid. A man his age should be playing with his kid and cultivating a nice garden.
mk926 8y ago
why would he need to do job at 64?
- aiyodev 8y ago
  To do eat and do home.
daly 8y ago
I have 50 years of programming, co-authored 4 commercial languages, many technical papers, years of research, lead developer on open source, work on hardware (FPGAs), robotics, operating systems, and AI. When I get the results of my interviews it always includes the phrase "not a good culture fit" (translation: too old). When I tried to join a class action suit against one company the lawyer told me that the language was VERY specific and would exclude me (and many, many others).
dbg31415 8y ago
I'm pushing 40 and I can already feel a gap between myself and the 20-somethings. I don't get all of their jokes, I don't know the popular bars or bands, and I don't like doing anything that involves thumb-typing. I think a lot of employment is just done by "smell" -- does this person smell like one of "us" or is he an outsider. And I know that at my age, I'm already starting to stink. So not to pick on the author too much, but he makes the claim, "Actually, I am very much with it. Every year, I read the equivalent of a university semester's worth of books and attend seminars to keep up with the industry and its latest trends." If I were him there are some things I would do to freshen up. 1) I'd consider going with a modern template for my company site. He has his own company that he runs consulting projects through, but it looks very dated. Simple WordPress instance with a generic theme would be better. Seems like he'd have the skillset required to set that up. * Avidaid · Project Management · Web Development & Software Design · IT Education || http://www.avidaid.ca/index.php http://www.avidaid.ca/index.php 2) I'd prune content off my LinkedIn and resume. He mentioned 20 years, I don't think there's any reason for anyone to list more than 10 years of work history. * David Wimsett | LinkedIn || https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ 3) I'd try and re-write the content for a specific job. I wouldn't go broad, I'd go targeted. He seems keen on being a PM, so I'd limit all work to just PM work. Tell a story, make it a good one. If there's a boring part, or part that isn't relevant to your next job, just leave it out. It's OK to have gaps. Change this: > My background is wide and varied. Most of my career has been spent in IT as a developer, business analyst and project manager for different industries. But, I have practiced professionally in many areas to include photography, film making, journalism, blogger, columnist, graphic design, educator, consultant and security expert to name a few. I am also a published author of short stories and novels. This expansive set of experiences gives me a wealth of knowledge to cross reference and draw upon when I solve problems. To something like: > Experienced cross-functional team lead with experience managing web, IT, government, and aerospace engineering projects. I'd also cut lines that are dated. Things that may have been hard in the past, but are no longer relevant. Including a few here: > Installed a Novel network with word processing, spreadsheet and record keeping capability. I'd cut all references to projects that didn't look modern. Again, OK to have gaps. * Look FANTASTIC on social media with professional video movies || http://www.yourstory2video.com/ http://www.yourstory2video.com/ 4) Seems odd that a senior PM would have under 200 contacts on LinkedIn. I get that maybe it wasn't his focus, but I probably add 200 contacts a year... MeetUps, mentoring, new hires, and clients... it only seems hard to put yourself out there, until you do it. LinkedIn and GitHub are the only social networks I use. Networking is always going to be the best way for anyone to find a new job, having a large network helps. 5) Lastly, I feel like age discrimination is real, and rejection sucks, but it's hard to get a sense of confidence from this guy after reading his post. Can someone from Netflix get this guy on the new Queer Eye? Not having confidence is going to really hurt him when it comes to applying for jobs. I don't know how to fix this, but likely seeing a shrink and hitting up the gym a bit would boost his self-esteem. I don't know, I've never been 64, but feel like that's probably good advice for anyone. Hey, David... if you're reading this, I reached out on LinkedIn. I run the delivery team for a branch of a global agency. I interview a lot of PM candidates. Happy to set up a mock interview and give feedback. Cheers!
packetpirate 8y ago
I feel bad for the guy because my dad goes through the same thing, being in IT and being 66, it's hard for him to find anything. But stop blaming everything on millennials, damn it. We didn't create age bias and blaming millennials for everything is such a cop-out that ignores real issues. Latching onto this idea that millennials are out to get you "because millennials" is extremely toxic and is the reason why there's such a generational divide.
rms25 8y ago
All you young wild devs, you'll be the death of me, the death of me
ChucklesNorris 8y ago
Age discrimination is rampant and yet illegal. Corporations ought to be fined for having a workforce younger than the average age of the country's citizens. That would help people like the man in this article. But I wonder, at 64, hasn't he applied for Social Security? It wasn't mentioned. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

327 points by myth_drannon 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Heartbreaking. I'm only partially in what could be considered tech, but I constantly try to move groups in my industry every few years to constantly pick up new skills. I honestly think I have enough random skills now: databases, programming, systems integration, mastery of a variety of common industry tools, project leadership, specific domain theory and understanding of the math that underlays my industry. However, is it enough and if the whole industry fades, where do I go next?

maxxxxx 8y ago
The problem with tech is that if you did something just a few years ago you are considered "outdated" and this experience doesn't count. For example I wrote heavy duty C++ code until 2012 for more than 10 years but during interviews I often get zero credit for this experience. "You haven't used C++ 17".
- 4thaccount 8y ago
  Seriously? Like how hard is it to go from C++ prior to 2012 or whatever to 2017? Would it take you a couple of months to get up to speed on the features in 2014 & 2017 that they're actually using? I can understand giving you a bit less credit than someone with up to date experience, but zero? It makes me so glad I'm not a developer.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    C++11 and up is legitimately very very different from C++03 and below.
    - eecsninja 8y ago
      But someone working on C++ prior to 2012 could still have encountered and experienced C++11.
      - monocasa 8y ago
        Probably not, there was a really long latency between the spec coming out in 2011 and compiler support. Multiple years.
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        I am pretty sure I have used things like “auto” and anonymous functions around 2011. The support wasn’t complete but there was already a lot available.
        monocasa 8y ago
        Stuff like range based for would have just come out.
- justaguyhere 8y ago
  When I was on my first job, we got a resume from someone twenty years older than us. Her resume was tossed aside quickly, but I fought with HR to get her to interview with us. She easily turned out to be the best hire ever for our team - she didn't know Java from assembly, but her common sense and problem solving abilities were orders of magnitude higher than any of the "young, hip, programming wizards" in the company at the time. If not for her, my team would've failed miserably. More than a decade later, I still fondly and humbly remember her. Any time I see younger folks ignoring/mistreating older folks, it annoys me to no end. As a industry, we need to learn to value experience and wisdom as much as we value speed and smartness. And we don't need to accept just because "HR said so" or "manager said so". At minimum, we need to make them understand that there are lots of older folks who can be great asset to the organization. end rant!
  - WalterBright 8y ago
    A well functioning organization needs a mix of younger and older people.
  - devonkim 8y ago
    To me, this is what bugs me about the “diversity” brigade - most of the time the conversation is based around ethnicity, physical abilities, or gender but for being long-term thinking we seem to have forgotten that diversity means _everyone_ that can contribute, including age / experience. Simply being old doesn’t necessarily make you better or faster, but it does tend to give you skills. Skills that were acquired over a long career. Skills that make them a nightmare for obscure bugs. Some folks I’ve hired were older than my father but I valued them for their experience in other industries and to lend their perspectives to how things should be. It is heartbreaking to think that we could be throwing away thousands or millions of man years of valuable lessons - some we should repeat and others we shouldn’t.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      That’s one thing I have noticed in all diversity material. It’s always young good looking people. There are no older, overweight, disabled or other types of people. It seems the diversity movement has changed the favored groups but I am not sure it’s much more inclusive.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  Must be some recruiter saying that because I cannot imagine a tech savvy HR saying that to you?
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    In a sense it’s probably a filter. Reasonable people give me credit but especially a lot of young guys can’t imagine that people did valuable stuff 5 or 10 years ago.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  Yeah, only the last 2 years matter. It’s really funny, because I’d never worked in Node.js until like 6 months ago, but everyone at the company seemed to think I had years of experience. It’s surprising how well skills transfer.
democracy 8y ago
Our client was impressed with your skills and you are a perfect fit for the team, however your Angular 3.46 knowledge was not enough to consider you for this role at this moment. Please, feel free to re-apply! :)

maerF0x0 8y ago

I feel for this guy. Ageism is completely real and mostly missing from D&I initiatives. However there is a 2nd lesson to be learned here. Why in the world does he not have any savings at 64? The article is scant on details, but does mention he was in the computer industry from his 20s, and raised his son, say, until roughly his 40s. That leaves 20 prime years of earning power w/o savings? Something is amiss. To me this is the lesson learned. If you're in the IT space, live way below your means. Most of us should be earning fantastic salaries and saving it for the day when the same industry that called us "Rock Stars" dumped us as fast as one leaving their 15 minutes (read: years) of fame.

standardUser 8y ago
"If you're in the IT space, live way below your means." That translates to: "If you're in a high paying, in demand field, save more aggressively than if you're in a low paying field with limited opportunities" Honestly, those in the IT field should be able to get away with saving a bit below recommended levels, in part because pay is higher, in part because demand is growing with no signs of slowing down. It's all those other people who should be saving more aggressively!
- solveit 8y ago
  I think what was meant was "If you're in a high paying, in demand field, save more aggressively (in absolute terms) than if you're in a low paying field with limited opportunities." Since you're getting paid more, you can put away more money while saving a smaller fraction of your paycheck.
- chiph 8y ago
  You don't have to save as aggressively as the people working towards FIRE (financially independent, retire early) but given that the future is unknown, and that the industry does have ageism - saving as hard as you can from the day you graduate isn't a bad thing.
- dmoy 8y ago
  I very much agree with this. We save >>50% of take-home in large part because I'm paranoid/convinced that this gravy train is going to make an unceremonious crash in the future.

harlanji 8y ago

Work-to-hire needs to be more prevalent. Start this guy off as a janitor so he can work his way up. No American feels above mopping floors, in case you, hiring manager, were unaware. Source: unemployed techie who gardens and moves in Silicon Valley, for people who would love to hire me if they had a computer job and is dodged by recruiters.

__float 8y ago
...why should he start as a janitor when he has years of experience doing the jobs he's apply for?
- MisterOctober 8y ago
  Yep. Also, most companies won't hire people who are massively overqualified for unskilled [or lesser-skilled] positions. In fact, many managers view unused skills as a waste [e.g., in the "Lean" philosophy / cult, it's called the '8th muda or waste'] and are specifically wary for that reason among others. now of course, it's not always interpreted as a negative incentive to hire certain folks due to their having skill A, but instead to use skill A if someone has it -- but I have certainly heard it interpreted as one of the reasons to avoid overqualified candidates].
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reasoning is there was a threat to power that would come from an overskilled person taking a position. For example, that overskilled person may not fall for certain lies or controlling aspects that the manager uses on actually-unskilled labor, who presumably don't have industry experience or are too afraid of losing their job to cause a fuss.
a3n 8y ago
Janitors are no longer directly hired, they come through a service. It's the service that's hired, and workers with anonymous faces just show up. There is no "work your way up" from those positions. Not anymore. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-rising-inequality-consider-the-janitors-at-two-top-companies-then-and-now.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-risi...

WestCoastJustin 8y ago

The population of this town is 6,300 [1]. This area of Canada is not known for tech (at all). I totally feel for this guy, it must totally suck, but moving might be a good option too. Or, try starting a business or remote work, if you have to live there. These are all hard things to do, but if you are really down and out, all options should be on the table. Or, look for something in a different line of work, where maybe you can leverage your tech skills? I know this isn't what the thread it about, as age is a major theme here. But, this seems like a little clickbait given there are likely not many jobs in this town. You could likely burn though all the job postings in a few days. I know this comes across as totally tone deaf too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentville https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentville

jbarham 8y ago
Yeah, as soon as I saw that he was from Nova Scotia I thought that's his main problem right there. (I say this as a Canadian.)
mikekchar 8y ago
The number of people I know who would kill to be able to move back to Nova Scotia is absolutely huge. Whatever jobs there are will have huge competition and very low wages. I'm kind of in the same boat. 51. Working remotely while living in rural Japan. If I lose my job (or quit), it's either get another remote job or move. If I can't get a remote job quickly, I will not wait to find someone willing to relocate me -- I'll be on the first plane to somewhere huge where I can get a job.

towaway1138 8y ago

I'm only in my 50s, but this is very relateable. Did a couple dozen interviews a year or two ago before finally getting a bite. Somewhat amazingly, even passed the hiring committee at a FANG, only to get swatted down by a rare strike from the executive level. In one interview, was asked to produce a class that could serialize and deserialize a list of numbers, to/from a string of chars. Sure, it's not that hard. Took maybe ten minutes? A few tests, it worked fine. They declined--"your skills seem rusty". Huh? I'm in good health and much better financial situation than the guy in the story. But without being too grim, I've accepted that someday I might run completely out of money. If I can't get hired in tech, I'll give McDonald's a shot--it's honest work. Failing that, I'll make my graceful exit.

goalieca 8y ago
i'm not really understanding the tech sector. There's often the criticism that we keep reinventing solutions to old problems. And here you are, with presumably 30 years of experience, and no one wants to take a chance?
- eecsninja 8y ago
  Maybe the people complaining and the ones doing the hiring aren't the same.
crispyambulance 8y ago
I find it disturbing he can't find work as a project manager. If anything, that's one role where the practitioners typically know fuck-all about nothing and where good ones are worth their weight in gold. I LOVE to work with ADULT project managers who have a clue about how projects actually unfold and how things actually get done with a wide variety of personalities in the mix. Instead, more often than not, you get 20-30-something "management fast-track" wannabe's who could not solve a problem to save their lives.
- perryh2 8y ago
  In today's world of agile development, I haven't met any project managers worthy of anything. I feel that strong product managers are capable of managing development as well. I can't believe there are actual people getting paid to move JIRA tickets around full-time.

myresume 8y ago

I have experienced this myself. I am going on 50. I am actually looking for work now. And I have kept up and I am using modern tech stacks. http://geoffreycallaghan.com http://geoffreycallaghan.com

x0x0 8y ago
fyi, this may work better if you say where you are. I looked and am assuming NJ from the 908 cell.
- throwaway24572 8y ago
  Greater NYC Area.
WestCoastJustin 8y ago
You should totally check out the whoishiring threads. They are packed with job listings (lots of remote too). https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring
scarface74 8y ago
I don’t know where you are. But with that skillset, recruiters should be throwing jobs at you in most major American cities. I know for a fact that recruiters in Atlanta would be salivating at the chance to placd you. As I said before, I am in my mid 40s.
- Washuu 8y ago
  The place I work for will be hiring within the next six months, budget approval pending, and this is basically a resume that would put someone towards the top of the stack.
- aiyodev 8y ago
  “He has all those skills but doesn’t have a job? Must be something wrong with him. I know several people his age and they all have jobs.”

avmich 8y ago

1) Have a friend (more better) who can hire you. It's usually better to look for programming work when you're employed. 2) Work (or rather, look for work) remotely; this is already mentioned. 3) Work through a contracting company, preferably owned by you. Let somebody else - maybe much younger if needed - do negotiations with customer companies. After those companies start seeing your work, age issues can be reduced.

akeck 8y ago

I wonder if he'd have an easier time as a architect/IT-planning consultant. Clients may perceive less financial risk and grey hair might actually be an asset. I'm acutely aware of my ticking career clock after reading several of these stories in the last year.

zmmmmm 8y ago

It's tragic and I wish younger devs could have even a small understanding of how pernicious this phenomenon is. No, you won't escape it because you're awesome, or because you love learning new things etc etc. I'm lucky: I switched into a role where deep domain experience is essential, I did a PhD, I'm one of the top experts in a growing field - I'm more or less insulated from this. Indeed, now I hire people and I'm actually one of the perpetrators of it. We get resumes, I look at them, and inevitably many of the younger people are both (a) cheaper and (b) more on-target with their skill sets. Then there is a much more subtle and non-explicit discrimination on top of that which involves a presumption that an experienced person will not be "happy" working in what they would perceive as a junior level role. That they would find another position and leave. So they honestly can't win - if they don't have the skills they don't get hired, if they do, it is presumed they are too experienced to be happy in the job. There must be a massive wave of ageing developers that is coming that is 10x the size of what we have seen so far. Something will have to change somewhere, hopefully it will help us all discard some of these discriminatory practices.

JauntyHatAngle 8y ago
I'm a (relatively) young developer, and I already worry about it. I enjoy and love working with new tech, I jump to new frameworks and ways of working quite often because it's good fun. I don't think that'll ever change. I'm already worried for the day where I won't be able to do that because people won't perceive me as a young, hungry up and comer wanting to attack problems, and instead they'll see me as an entrenched, slow, older worker trying to tackle stuff best left to the young'ins. When that day comes, I can see myself just setting my roots in a long term role in a particular tech that won't change, and I'll probably be bored out of my skull. I can envisage myself ending up going into management just to escape that. The best teams I've worked with were the teams that had a mix of young and old, it balances a team the same as having a good gender split imho.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Ageism is overblown. The way to get a job for an older worker - I’m in my mid 40s - doesn’t change no matter what your age is. Make sure you have skills that the market wants, don’t get complacent at one company and keep your network warm including local recruiters.

skizm 8y ago

I feel like there is less of a stigma for older contractors. Might be a good idea if you’re getting older in a tech career to shift from full time to contract work?

UnpossibleJim 8y ago
Health insurance is a son of a bitch when you're older, though =[ it's not necessarily a bad plan, but those insurance rates go through the roof.
- WestCoastJustin 8y ago
  He's from Canada. We get basic medial coverage for free. Well, if you are not working it is free, if you are working it is like $50-100/month (depending on your pay level). This is often covered by your employer too, again if you are working. So, there is no real issues there as he gets older.
  - UnpossibleJim 8y ago
    Oh, that's awesome! Remind me to move to Canada... Vancouver isn't too far from Seattle =) tax rate isn't that much higher, these days, either from my understanding (depending on your income). Edit: Though, you guys aren't taking us in anymore as easily, these days, though huh? =) I say this all mostly in jest. I do think things will even out here and cooler minds will prevail, eventually.
    - pinewurst 8y ago
      Vancouver tech salaries though are terrible by comparison with Seattle or even Toronto.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
porpoisely 8y ago
That makes a lot of sense since the company isn't as invested in a temp/contract hire as opposed to a full time employee. Hiring managers might be more willing to take a chance on an older contract worker than an older full time staff. And frankly speaking, the guy is a temp/contract worker whether he realizes it or not. Even if he secured a full-time position, he'd be the first to be laid off during a recession or downsizing. But to be doing contract work at 64 can be rough. Is he willing or able to travel/commute at that age? But definitely something to consider.

Zigurd 8y ago

So far, this hasn't been my experience. I've written books. I have a very strong network among funders and experienced management. I'm probably in the top few percent of candidates my age because I consciously built those advantages, some of which can't be reproduced by everyone in my age cohort looking for a job. But, just because I saw ageism coming at me, doesn't mean that it is excusable. Age discrimination is something that needs to be eradicated in tech as much as sexism and racism. I won't mince words: I mean sexism and racism, not "lack of diversity." Ageism is just as bad. Investors: If your portfolio is infected with these diseases, it raises your risk. Inoculate against it. Don't fund diseased founders.

barrkel 8y ago
Indeed. By definition, not everyone can be in the top few percent.
- Zigurd 8y ago
  I hope it's clear that that is effect and not cause.

shard972 8y ago

Why hire a 64 year old when you can hire a PHD straight out of india for less?

omgoodness7 8y ago

A portion of y’all are 20 somethings who do not know real life. Refrain from giving life advice.

tasuki 8y ago
Wasn't that the whole point of this: not to discriminate based on age?

throwaway24572 8y ago

So here's some hiring anti-patterns I've seen, it's not just millennial managers, but I've seen these patterns in lots of companies and interviews. 1. Managers that want to hire people they could be best friends with. Drinking buddies, social media socialites, etc. Don't confuse this with hiring their best friends, they just feel more comfortable around people that they could socialize with. 2. Managers that don't want anyone to undermine their technical authority. And the best way a manager with 5 years of experience can keep his authority is to not hire an engineer with 20 years of professional experience. 3. Managers that think the culture of a company would turn more boring if they hired middle-aged workers. So they must hire young people only. They can usually get away with it if they hire 80% college graduates mostly. 4. There must be something wrong with the person if he didn't get into management by the age of 50.

pacomerh 8y ago
#1 and #3 you can probably avoid by working remotely. The thing with remote work is, companies usually look for devs with above average skills, they also look for devs with previous remote experience and of course awesome communication. As for #4, that's a difficult one, I think you could probably get around #4 if you have a great portfolio of working projects
pandapower2 8y ago
>4. There must be something wrong with the person if he didn't get into management by the age of 50. This idea amuses/saddens me. Personally, i know a few older technical people (myself included) who have been managers and chose to return to non-manager work. Non-developers (including non-technical managers) seem to have real trouble accepting that someone would not want to be a manager. Hands on techies usually get the attraction of spending your time building stuff Vs going to meetings, shielding your team from political goings on, taking calls, setting budgets, and moving jira tickets around.
sakoht 8y ago
There is a natural repercussion for being a manager who passes on talent, and hires something less. You lose. Unless you are in a company where being good doesn't make a difference. Working in a company that hires poorly is its own punishment. Dodge the bullet.

woogiewonka 8y ago

I'm a consultant in my 30s and I worry about my 50's and 60's. I feel like, if I don't get a recurring revenue product going that sells itself without the trade of time for money, I'll be totally screwed. I've tried and failed a few times on various projects, and it feels like time is running out. There are definitely fewer attempts left in me and it takes a hell of a lot of energy to stay positive and try all over.

thisisweirdok 8y ago

When I was in my upper 30s I was mistakingly included in a reply-all email from someone who interviewed me and said I seemed kind of old for the position. I was ready to lose my shit on them but my wife made me wait a day before responding when she saw how angry I was. I was considering hiring a lawyer to sue the shit out of them for discrimination, but at the end of the day I brushed it off with a snarky "at least I'm experienced enough to double check who my illegal emails are going to" and told them I was reporting it to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (which I did). This was years ago, and I've always been well employed, but I'm still a little mad about it. I did find out through an acquaintance that the person who mistakingly sent that email was fired almost immediately and they were pretty worried about a lawsuit. The struggle is so real. It's insane.

hackits 8y ago
Playing devil advocate here. Have you considered you're too old? Maybe during the interview process they didn't consider the experience you could bring to the table with your knowledge and expertise would be a valuable asset to the business? You deferred all your decision making to your (sic) wife. You should really take a step back and consider are you able to make decision without the consultation of your significant other? To me, I would say the interviewer made a wise call and said he thought you where too old for the position. Your emotional outburst seems to be more a problem that the interviewer had a feeling about you? [Replying to the down votes] You cannot grow as a individual without having a open discussion.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
JauntTrooper 8y ago
I’m pretty sure protections against age discrimination only kick in federally if you’re 40 or older, though some states may expand it to younger workers.
- thisisweirdok 8y ago
  Maybe, but that seems kind of crazy as I had tangible proof of age discrimination. It's not like they'd say someone who was 38 was too old and someone who was 42 would suddenly not.

cyberferret 8y ago

As an aside from the OP, I am 52 and building a startup. I often get the feeling when talking to accelerators and angel investors etc. that they balk when seeing my age. Experience doesn't seem to count for much these days - they seem to be looking for 20-something old young people who are prepared to 'hustle' and 'crush it' and work 20 hour days. I am willing to bet that most founders who started their companies 10+ years ago would struggle to get a job at those same companies now if they approach them as an applicant off the street today.

ilamont 8y ago
In startup accelerator world, people with white hairs are brought in when the the team needs an "adult" to manage things. At an earlier stage, having someone who is 35 or 45 or 55 or 65 might make the VCs and advisors feel awkward.

irrational 8y ago

I'm in my mid-40s and I worry about this - a lot.

tmm84 8y ago
I'm in my mid-30s and I worry about this a lot too. This age has no concept of human lifespan.

cottsak 8y ago

If you're listening David, here are my suggestions. Keep in mind I don't have nearly the wealth of experience you would obviously have. * Refresh both http://www.avidaid.ca/ http://www.avidaid.ca/ your websites with a modern feel http://www.avidaidmedia.ca/ http://www.avidaidmedia.ca/ Hire a designer for a fixed price on https://www.upwork.com/ https://www.upwork.com/ or other freelancer site. Your potential employers will look you up and they don't want to find dated visuals like these. If you don't want to refresh the look of both sites, then take one down. An asset should make you look good, not detract from the perception it might create for you. * Make sure your site(s) are HTTPS. Get on google and figure out how to do this (or pay the upwork freelancer to do it) and then it can be a talking point in an interview (how passionate you are about security and privacy, for example). * Remove the word "President" from "President, Senior Project Manager and Consultant at Avidaid Inc." on your CV/linkedin. If you're going to a PM or consulting role then you have to have other roles which show you've done this recently. The "President" thing could work against you: "wow, this guy probably wants way more then we're prepared to pay" * Maybe try dressing down just a tad - a some nice chinos or a collared shirt but not tucked in perhaps. I'm kinda spitballing here so just have a think about it. If the companies have heaps of younger folks then maybe you could do something to make them feel a little more comfortable in the interview. I personally know I'd be pretty intimidated if a candidate came in all suited up for a PM role. I'm not saying you want the "golf course" look. Just something a little more relaxed perhaps? * Lastly, the "corporation" and "us" language on your website avidaid.ca is not going to work in your favour I don't think. Your linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ and the tired website suggest there are heaps of folks working at your consultancy. I can only assume this is a false pretence given the CBC article. I would prefer to see a portfolio which talks about "you"!!! (personally) and highlights projects, interactions and specific work-related interests which you are likely to be passionate about. This will excite me as a hiring manager. I hope this helps mate.

freewilly1040 8y ago
Those sites are rough. Another option is a website builder like Squarespace, Wix, or Weebly. Might be cheaper than Upwork and will at least get you started with a decent layout / theme.

butterfi 8y ago

I'm starting to notice that in the Bay Area, older tech workers are more stable then fresh transplants, simply because we've been around long enough to get affordable housing. I make about 15k less then I might otherwise, but its not really an issue for me because I own my home.

djhaskin987 8y ago

My father started feeling this in his 50's, then he got his master's degree and his callback rate increased significantly. Now he's in his 60's he's getting a PhD so he'll be marketable as an old guy, even if that is just as an adjunct professor.

hpcjoe 8y ago
FWIW, the adjunct role is very low pay, for quite a bit of work. They pay you for contact hours. 2 lectures per week is 2-4 contact hours. They don't pay you for time grading, traveling, answering questions/office hours, etc. I've looked at doing that (PhD and over 50) to augment my own income, but the time commitment is huge, compared to the compensation.

MrTonyD 8y ago

Just for a counterpoint that I know will be attacked - Why not create plenty of jobs? Let's say we want programming jobs for everyone, just start adding constraints to what can be sold in the country based on whether that company hired programmers in the country. Are there people who want to do more woodwork? Well then start adding some limits to importing products built with woodworking skills. It doesn't have to be "all or nothing", it can target creating the jobs desired by the community. I know this would take a lot of work to get right, and there would be costs, but it sure seems like it would be worth it to create a society where everybody could do the type of work that they desire.

pvaldes 8y ago

He knows where is the problem but does not use this knowledge to take a proactive stance. "yes I know that I'm old, BUT shouldn't be a problem for the job because... (I keep learning, update my skills often, can do X) ... etc, etc"

WaltPurvis 8y ago
>>take a proactive stance What would that entail?
- ben509 8y ago
  Someone else mentioned dressing less formally. He can work out. He could also dye his hair and... keep in mind the guy is fairly desperate here... wear makeup. https://slate.com/technology/2013/09/men-should-wear-makeup-looking-younger-and-better-isnt-just-for-women.html https://slate.com/technology/2013/09/men-should-wear-makeup-...
- pvaldes 8y ago
  Address the point in the first minutes of the interview and turn it into an advantage. If the other part is nervous about your age, talk casually about how this will not be a problem. Be humble, calm, and redirige the conversation toward focusing in your best skills, from more modern to more old techniques. Skills that you can offer because you are not so young as the other candidates, and you love your job enough to keep trying even if you not became an unstable rockstar/diva programmer. Agree that dying the hair a little, at his home would help. Just to pass from all white to some shade of grey. A 64 man with silky black hair would look ridiculous.

sakoht 8y ago

I'm 45 and I know a bunch of people far older than me who are highly-valued on their teams. Even in Silicon Valley I found younger engineers enjoy working with super-experienced people _IF_ those years actually translated to expertise. What you can't do is sit on your ass for decades then expect to be rewarded for treading water when the cozy job at BigCo finally dries up. All of the computing industry gets more competitive each year. Age gives you a head start if you are _actually_ using the time to keep growing, IMO. Often, people get older and get comfy and stop learning, or they lose the ability to related to younger talent on the team, which is just an essential business skill, like it was when you were young and had to relate to older people. And, if you actually have real skills, but a company won't hire you because the leaders think superficially, you should filter them from the list of companies you stake your future on.

jswizzy 8y ago

I have had to work with plenty of older programmers and it's always a bad experience. The boomer generation are not team players and they will use office politics to sabotage anyone who they perceive as threat to them. I have to deal a guy now who complains about ageism all day and talks about how experience he is and how he did x great thing but I have to explain simple programming concepts to the guy and agrees and looks down on me all.

eecsninja 8y ago
Sounds like working with bad programmers. I worked with a lot of younger programmers who were lazy and less diligent than I expected from others at the same FAANG company. Bad experience too.

maa5444 8y ago

you have to expatriate ... only solution for you ... go in a less developed country where your experience counts

avodonosov 8y ago

Unsatisfied expectations of the interviewer? Maybe it's better to list full experience, instead of limiting to 20 years? And mention the age. To prepare them better, rather than surprising. At least he would need to spend less time on interviews with people not ready to hire a 64 year old, and only talk to people who are ready.

democracy 8y ago
That is not a good advice. If you wait for this ideal role for your skills/age - it might never happen. They will not agree you are an ideal candidate even if you tick each checkbox from your perspective (or someone else was quicker or cheaper or whatever). One should try every opportunity as the things are very often unpredictable in the job search quest.
- avodonosov 8y ago
  IMHO the opportunity reduces if you plan to surprize them at the in person interview by the difference between the impression your resume makes and the reality. They invited a different guy than shows up at the interview - it's difficult to call an opportunity.

draw_down 8y ago

The crazy thing about the ageism in our industry (perhaps others but I wouldn't know) is that it's the one form of discrimination we all will face, unless we die or get so rich as to never need to work again. Yet it tends not to get covered in any diversity/inclusion, at least as far as I've seen.

randyrand 8y ago

Just curious: why do age discrimination laws only disallow discrimination against older ages? Even if discriminating against people age 20-30 is more rare, what's the advantage of allowing it? It seems like a hard sell to say "you should care about age discrimination" but to enact age discriminatino laws that literally discriminate based on age. Maybe this moral inconsistency is why more people don't care/do more about it.

decentrality 8y ago

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett

randomacct3847 8y ago

My singular focus right now as a “Millennial” is to save enough before 40 to retire if I choose to and, at the same time, figure out how to become self sufficient so that I am not reliant on someone else for income by 35. Effectively I want to “retire” from having a “job” working for someone else long before I “retire” from earning income.

sridca 8y ago
What's the catch though? Higher stress during 20s and 30s?
- randomacct3847 8y ago
  High earning job and living well below means with a good amount of luck
  - marketgod 8y ago
    Look into index funds and Bogle heads lazy portfolio. There are communities dedicated to financial independence (FIRE) on the internet that can help you with these goals.

ctrager 8y ago

I'm retired and I think my money situation is good but STILL when I read the article and comments I feel a spike of anxiety, PTSD-like.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

steve_taylor 8y ago

Someone on HN recently recommended a book called Developer Hegemony and I'm a bit over a third of the way through it. If you're starting to approach the age where discrimination will become an issue, and you're of the opinion that you'd better start climbing the corporate ladder as high and fast as you can in order to avoid unemployment, I recommend reading at least the first 1/3 or so of this book. (I don't yet know what the remaining 2/3 is about.)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

rmason 8y ago

You want to know a secret for finding engineers as a startup? Be open to hiring any fifty and over engineer that you verify can do the work. Word will get out and you will be flooded with qualified applicants. I can imagine telling your VC's, oh no we don't use agencies and spend at most 5% of the CEO's time on hiring. When they express puzzlement just tell them a wise mentor gave you his secret.

taftster 8y ago
Yeah, I don't get this age-ism thing at all. I'm approaching my 50's, and I'm still climbing in my effectiveness and productivity. I haven't even yet reached the top of my game yet. I am getting better every year. Proportionally, I bring to the table 5-10x (at least) greater value than those just-out-of-school with no experience. But I'm only paid 1.5x of their salary. Granted, there are some folks out there that have been slacking off their whole careers, and after 20+ years, they're very good at it. But in terms of dollar spent to unit of value, I believe mid-career folks like me are way more economically valuable overall.

redleggedfrog 8y ago

I wonder how much this applies to any type of manager, not just a software project manager. Is the ageism a problem with tech, or just a problem?

fecak 8y ago

Professional resume writer and career consultant here, approaching 50, and I’ve helped rehabilitate careers of many clients in similar situations. The line that caught my eye was his quote “I have been unemployed for a long time." I believe the stigma of extended unemployment is worse than ageism. What I do is a mix of marketing (maximize assets, minimize liabilities, optimize everything), strategy for job search (beyond “spray and pray” resume broadcasting), and building confidence for interviews and the general approach. You have to believe you’ve earned a seat at the table. There is always more to stories like this. Qualified candidates can overcome ageism with proper understanding of the market conditions.

jrumbut 8y ago
I'd like to believe this but I've seen some really great contributors just get unlucky for 6 months or more, and then all of a sudden it's been a year and things are starting to look strange. It's a great market for developers to get hired, but it's still possible to fall through the cracks especially if you aren't good at the specific skill of job searching.
- fecak 8y ago
  I appreciate the thoughts, and luck does play a part but there are definitely methods to maximize your chances. I tend to find many older workers aren’t aware of how to find a job in the modern market or how to best approach companies. Job search has changed significantly in just the past few years, let alone the past decade.

democracy 8y ago

I also find it interesting as with the experience it is more difficult to answer certain interview questions. 10 years ago a question like "how do you make sure your code changes in production do not cause outages" wouldn't cause me any headaches but now I am getting stuck as this is something I can talk about for hours and I need to know the context and the details of it so I start thinking what the scope of my answer should be and what they want to hear from me in the next minute or two and that I probably have to squeeze my experience into this two minutes and it is hardly possible so what should I start with? While I am thinking about all this, it probably looks like I have nothing to say at all. It's sad :)

purplezooey 8y ago

These workers often outperform younger ones. It's well known. To make such poor decisions as a manager they are disadvantaging their own company.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

john_moscow 8y ago

Disclaimer: I don't approve ageism in tech, I'm merely trying to explain the reasoning of the other side of the negotiation table. The unspoken truth about the job market is that the older you get, the more you should rely on your network when finding jobs. Simply maintain professional contact with 5-20 people that worked with you, know that you can deliver and would recommend you (citing the projects you successfully completed together), hire you directly, or at least give you a gig. Yes, it's a completely orthogonal skill to doing the actual job, but this is something that successful hires do. So if a 65-year-old person files a cold-call application for a management position (that involves building professional relationships with your colleagues in order to make things succeed), it is very reasonable to ask what happened to their network and why nobody from the network would not have recommended them. The article actually gives a hint when it mentions selling the assets and accumulating credit card debts. I'm sorry to say that, but this is an evidence of poor resource management. A good resource management strategy in this case would be: 1. Damn, I've lost my job. OK, I have X months on runway. Let's try to find another management position. 2. Oops, my runway is at 80% with no offers. I get 10% conversion ratio from applications to interviews and 0% from interviews to offers. Let's cut down expenses and try experimenting with what I do on the interviews. 3. Crap, runway is at 60%, still no offer. Let's kick down and try to find a dev position. 4. Runway is at 40%, no offer as a dev, still 100% cutoff after the interview. Let's try to apply for a remote position. 5. Runway is at 20%. Get a freakin' trade that people can realistically do in my age, secure recurring income, try to step up and find a remote dev job. Nothing personal, but if you cannot manage that, you will likely not succeed at managing a multi-million dollar software project either.

hpcjoe 8y ago
This. On the network. This. For you young whippersnappers (say up to 35), get out, talk to people. Get known. Go to conferences. Establish a reputation. For you older folks (36+), you might not believe you have a network, but LinkedIn is, despite being crappy in a number of ways, a reasonably good tool for growing your network, connecting with people, and so on. I am not talking about its "jobs" features. I am talking about reaching out and connecting with good people you know, who happen to be networked to someone you might like to meet.

eweise 8y ago

This story scares me. I'm not that far off from my 60s and still have kids to get through high school and college. My strategy is to keep my tech skills even as I move more into management. Hopefully, after I'm deemed to old to work in silicon valley, I can still do remote contract work slinging code.

Overtonwindow 8y ago

This is what I fear the most. Fortunately I am in an industry that values age and experience over youth, but requires that experience to consistently advance.

swayvil 8y ago

Engineering is for the young and stupid. A man his age should be playing with his kid and cultivating a nice garden.

mk926 8y ago

why would he need to do job at 64?

aiyodev 8y ago
To do eat and do home.

daly 8y ago

I have 50 years of programming, co-authored 4 commercial languages, many technical papers, years of research, lead developer on open source, work on hardware (FPGAs), robotics, operating systems, and AI. When I get the results of my interviews it always includes the phrase "not a good culture fit" (translation: too old). When I tried to join a class action suit against one company the lawyer told me that the language was VERY specific and would exclude me (and many, many others).

dbg31415 8y ago

I'm pushing 40 and I can already feel a gap between myself and the 20-somethings. I don't get all of their jokes, I don't know the popular bars or bands, and I don't like doing anything that involves thumb-typing. I think a lot of employment is just done by "smell" -- does this person smell like one of "us" or is he an outsider. And I know that at my age, I'm already starting to stink. So not to pick on the author too much, but he makes the claim, "Actually, I am very much with it. Every year, I read the equivalent of a university semester's worth of books and attend seminars to keep up with the industry and its latest trends." If I were him there are some things I would do to freshen up. 1) I'd consider going with a modern template for my company site. He has his own company that he runs consulting projects through, but it looks very dated. Simple WordPress instance with a generic theme would be better. Seems like he'd have the skillset required to set that up. * Avidaid · Project Management · Web Development & Software Design · IT Education || http://www.avidaid.ca/index.php http://www.avidaid.ca/index.php 2) I'd prune content off my LinkedIn and resume. He mentioned 20 years, I don't think there's any reason for anyone to list more than 10 years of work history. * David Wimsett | LinkedIn || https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/ 3) I'd try and re-write the content for a specific job. I wouldn't go broad, I'd go targeted. He seems keen on being a PM, so I'd limit all work to just PM work. Tell a story, make it a good one. If there's a boring part, or part that isn't relevant to your next job, just leave it out. It's OK to have gaps. Change this: > My background is wide and varied. Most of my career has been spent in IT as a developer, business analyst and project manager for different industries. But, I have practiced professionally in many areas to include photography, film making, journalism, blogger, columnist, graphic design, educator, consultant and security expert to name a few. I am also a published author of short stories and novels. This expansive set of experiences gives me a wealth of knowledge to cross reference and draw upon when I solve problems. To something like: > Experienced cross-functional team lead with experience managing web, IT, government, and aerospace engineering projects. I'd also cut lines that are dated. Things that may have been hard in the past, but are no longer relevant. Including a few here: > Installed a Novel network with word processing, spreadsheet and record keeping capability. I'd cut all references to projects that didn't look modern. Again, OK to have gaps. * Look FANTASTIC on social media with professional video movies || http://www.yourstory2video.com/ http://www.yourstory2video.com/ 4) Seems odd that a senior PM would have under 200 contacts on LinkedIn. I get that maybe it wasn't his focus, but I probably add 200 contacts a year... MeetUps, mentoring, new hires, and clients... it only seems hard to put yourself out there, until you do it. LinkedIn and GitHub are the only social networks I use. Networking is always going to be the best way for anyone to find a new job, having a large network helps. 5) Lastly, I feel like age discrimination is real, and rejection sucks, but it's hard to get a sense of confidence from this guy after reading his post. Can someone from Netflix get this guy on the new Queer Eye? Not having confidence is going to really hurt him when it comes to applying for jobs. I don't know how to fix this, but likely seeing a shrink and hitting up the gym a bit would boost his self-esteem. I don't know, I've never been 64, but feel like that's probably good advice for anyone. Hey, David... if you're reading this, I reached out on LinkedIn. I run the delivery team for a branch of a global agency. I interview a lot of PM candidates. Happy to set up a mock interview and give feedback. Cheers!

packetpirate 8y ago

I feel bad for the guy because my dad goes through the same thing, being in IT and being 66, it's hard for him to find anything. But stop blaming everything on millennials, damn it. We didn't create age bias and blaming millennials for everything is such a cop-out that ignores real issues. Latching onto this idea that millennials are out to get you "because millennials" is extremely toxic and is the reason why there's such a generational divide.

rms25 8y ago

All you young wild devs, you'll be the death of me, the death of me

ChucklesNorris 8y ago

Age discrimination is rampant and yet illegal. Corporations ought to be fined for having a workforce younger than the average age of the country's citizens. That would help people like the man in this article. But I wonder, at 64, hasn't he applied for Social Security? It wasn't mentioned. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.