7 ms·

America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered fro

America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. There are 4x as many geniuses in China as in the US. This is not because they are superior genetically. This is simply because the population of China is 4x that of USA. If one in 1,000,000 people are geniuses, then China must have 4x more geniuses than the US. That's a threat to the US. If our economy is to remain strong and if we are to remain a superpower we should invite the smartest of the Chinese to immigrate to the US. Abuse of H1B must be stopped. It is not intended as a mechanism for undercutting American workers. But the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater. We should expand the H1B system and make it easier for immigrants to become citizens, while at the same time preventing abuse.

jazzyk 8y ago
Legal and controlled immigration is absolutely beneficial for the US overall. But targeting specific industries is unfair - the software industry has been the main target, lowering the income levels respective to other, protected professions (physicians, etc.), or business executives. Since people in the trades like plumbers or electricians do not fall under the umbrella of "importing the best & brightest", their hourly rates have been going up steadily (for self-employed people).
- flowerlad 8y ago
  >software industry has been the main target, lowering the income levels respective to other, protected professions I don’t see software engineers suffering. Starting salary in FAANG conpanies is $120K to $250K. That’s better than doctors when you factor in years of education.
  - jazzyk 8y ago
    Perhaps, but outside of the FAANG bubble, income levels have been stagnating for quite some time (if you adjust for inflation)
  - newshorts 8y ago
    Salary is not enough to determine quality of life, a faang salary in the Bay Area doesn’t get you very far as an individual and for families it’s often not enough.
- GeoffKnauth 8y ago
  In rural America, we have been importing doctors from other parts of the world because we don't have enough American doctors who want to serve outside the big cities and high-paid specialties.
  - mnm1 8y ago
    That's probably because foreign doctors don't know what they're getting into. From speaking with American doctors, many have been offered double the salary to go to rural and non-rural positions in the south and Midwest but they would not even consider it due to the racism and hate there. Can't say I blame them. I'd do the same and I'm white. Culture matters and having a culture of hate like most of rural and quite a bit of non-rural America does is extremely unappealing especially to people smart enough to become doctors.
e40 8y ago
I agree. Problem is, and I say this as an aging white person, lots of white people in the US are scared to death of brown people. I'm not talking Seattle, LA, SF (area, where I live), NY or other metropolitan places. I'm talking about most of the US. All that red space in between the coasts. Later in life, as I travel around and watch what happens in the US, I'm convinced more than ever this is the legacy of slavery still haunting us today.
behindmyscreen 8y ago
Changing the H1B visa to let holders change companies easily would be a good start at removing the pay disparity and incentive to not hire qualified US workers.
- ece 8y ago
  Letting them be promoted within a job would be a good start too. If reforms like this happened, the incentive for companies to abuse the system would go down. Setting up fake staffing companies would still be a problem, but catching immigration/employment fraud is a different problem and should be resourced appropriately.
duaoebg 8y ago
That’s not why America is the most powerful. To sum it up “cheap credit.” No other place will give you access to money so cheaply.
- sremani 8y ago
  Capital accumulation is the right word.
- adventured 8y ago
  If cheap credit made countries powerful, Japan would be the most powerful country in world history. They've had access to among the cheapest rates of credit for two decades, a time in which their economic output has gone nowhere. Cheap credit helps one party and harms another within a country. It doesn't make a nation powerful. Technology, invention, scientific output, universities, capital for investment, scale, production / manufacturing, attractiveness to foreign talent and investment, modestly sane regulatory and tax policies, strong protections for property rights, ease of establishing and doing business, ease of trade, etc. Those are a few of the things that help to make a nation powerful. Those are things the US has either been the leader in or one of the leaders for the last century plus. Much of Western Europe has had cheaper borrowing than the US for many years now, including in real-estate, corporate borrowing and at the government level. It didn't spur a great boom and increase their power. At best it has helped them tread water, which is all it did for Japan.
ausjke 8y ago
As far as I know, while Chinese students are way more than India students in USA, Indian H1B holders are about 4~5 times more than Chinese. In short, the vast majority(about 50+%) H1Bs are taken by India, Chinese is about 10%. Indians abuses the system severely by setting up phony staffing companies and do fake multiple filings on h1b application, etc. There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. I will not be surprised someday they will be sued for not following equal job rights.
- jhwang5 8y ago
  This. I have observed this at FAANG as well as wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened at Oracle. Would explain the data anyways.
- namelezz 8y ago
  > if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians It can get worse. "Woman was told she’d be fired if she didn’t marry boss’s Indian relative so he could immigrate here" - [0] 0 - https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdressers-sham-marriage/ https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdresse...
  - screye 8y ago
    Just saying, this isn't quite relevant to CS. This was a hairdresser with a business. So, the Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated. It is disingenuous to extrapolate that to H1Bs. Secondly, this happened in Canada where Sikh/Punjabi immigration was not skill based, but rather fueled by mostly uneducated people looking for a better life. This is completely in contrast to the H1B which is a skill based employment visa.
    - namelezz 8y ago
      > Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated Here are some educated managers in US tech companies - [0] 0 - https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suck-JJsmfgzz https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suc...
drawkbox 8y ago
> America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. I agree, there is a non-quota limited O visa for temporary workers for the best and brightest [1]. >> The O-1 nonimmigrant visa is for the individual who possesses extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics, or who has a demonstrated record of extraordinary achievement in the motion picture or television industry and has been recognized nationally or internationally for those achievements. H-1B is also required for jobs that can't be filled but is definitely being abused. The best and brightest from around the world can ALWAYS get in with no limit with the O visa [2]. >> There is a misconception about the H-1B program that it was designed to allow companies to import workers with unique talents. There has long been a visa program for exactly that purpose. The O (for outstanding) visa program is for importing geniuses and nothing else. Interestingly enough, the O visa program has no quotas. The H-1B abuse is more a situation where large companies are abusing it to lower labor costs and wages while owning employees. It will never affect the best and brightest from working in the US by getting an O visa though. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [2] https://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/ https://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know...
- screye 8y ago
  > I agree, there is a non-quota limited O visa for temporary workers for the best and brightest Just saying, the requirements of the O visa are usually very unreasonable. An application must satisfy 3 of the below requirements: 1. Receipt of nationally or internationally recognized prizes or awards for excellence in the field of endeavor 2. Membership in associations in the field for which classification is sought which require outstanding achievements, as judged by recognized national or international experts in the field 3. Published material in professional or major trade publications, newspapers or other major media about the beneficiary and the beneficiary’s work in the field for which classification is sought 4. Original scientific, scholarly, or business-related contributions of major significance in the field 5. Authorship of scholarly articles in professional journals or other major media in the field for which classification is sought 6. A high salary or other remuneration for services as evidenced by contracts or other reliable evidence Participation on a panel, or individually, as a judge of the work of others in the same or in a field of specialization allied to that field for which classification is sought Employment in a critical or essential capacity for organizations and establishments that have a distinguished reputation Afaik, this would usually put a person in the domain of top PhD student or professor. I doubt any masters/undergrad would be able to qualify for such a requirement. A PhD isn't for everyone, and IMO isn't always positively correlated with intelligence. (in that many of the smartest people have no intention of going into research /academia). The kind of people from India who would qualify for the O-1 would usually be in the 99.99th percentile. At that point we aren't just talking about the smartest people. These people go beyond that. (at least in CS, where PhDs are very competitive)
porpoisely 8y ago
We are the most powerful nation on earth because of our immense resources, geographic diversity, access to almost every major ocean and lack of powerful enemies on our border. Geography is destiny. Having the most arable land, having exploited the most oil, having access to the pacific, atlantic, arctic, etc and the ability to develop in peace due to having much weaker nations on our border is why we are a superpower. The idea that we are the greatest nation because we have the best and brightest from around the world is simply not true. If it was true, our immigration policy would be based on IQ today. China can't be a superpower because they are hemmed in by Russia to the north, India to the south, US/Japan/Korea alliance in the east and Iran/Central Asia/Middle East to the west. If it is true that number of "geniuses" makes a nation the most powerful in the world, the most powerful nations would have been china and india. We know that's not the case. So your theory contradicts itself.
williesleg 8y ago
That's fake news. India and China have been screwed up for centuries. Their culture breeds it. The smartest Indian programmers still just do the needful. I've seen lots of projects ruined by their basic values being so out of sync with the western world.
analog31 8y ago
I agree, with one tiny quibble. My emphasis would not be about gathering people per se, but about educating them. OF course, tolerance of immigrants is key to keeping our doors open for students from overseas. Our higher education system, embattled as it is, remains the envy of the world.
TheBobinator 8y ago
When someone confuses a temporary work permit used to bring in scarce foreign labor to fill gaps in the labor market, with a permanent work permit that brings geniuses to the united states to live their lives, ignoring everything that goes in between including family, politics, and motivation. When someone appears to be unbelievably naieve, they are often trying to sell you something. Either you're a foreigner who wants to convince us you're worth it, or you're a a corporate plant.
tagrun 8y ago
You're not making much sense to me. How can the genius ratio in the US and China can be the same if US kept importing the "best and the brightest, gathered from around the world", assuming that Chinese "are not superior genetically"?

jazzyk 8y ago

Legal and controlled immigration is absolutely beneficial for the US overall. But targeting specific industries is unfair - the software industry has been the main target, lowering the income levels respective to other, protected professions (physicians, etc.), or business executives. Since people in the trades like plumbers or electricians do not fall under the umbrella of "importing the best & brightest", their hourly rates have been going up steadily (for self-employed people).

flowerlad 8y ago
>software industry has been the main target, lowering the income levels respective to other, protected professions I don’t see software engineers suffering. Starting salary in FAANG conpanies is $120K to $250K. That’s better than doctors when you factor in years of education.
- jazzyk 8y ago
  Perhaps, but outside of the FAANG bubble, income levels have been stagnating for quite some time (if you adjust for inflation)
- newshorts 8y ago
  Salary is not enough to determine quality of life, a faang salary in the Bay Area doesn’t get you very far as an individual and for families it’s often not enough.
GeoffKnauth 8y ago
In rural America, we have been importing doctors from other parts of the world because we don't have enough American doctors who want to serve outside the big cities and high-paid specialties.
- mnm1 8y ago
  That's probably because foreign doctors don't know what they're getting into. From speaking with American doctors, many have been offered double the salary to go to rural and non-rural positions in the south and Midwest but they would not even consider it due to the racism and hate there. Can't say I blame them. I'd do the same and I'm white. Culture matters and having a culture of hate like most of rural and quite a bit of non-rural America does is extremely unappealing especially to people smart enough to become doctors.

e40 8y ago

I agree. Problem is, and I say this as an aging white person, lots of white people in the US are scared to death of brown people. I'm not talking Seattle, LA, SF (area, where I live), NY or other metropolitan places. I'm talking about most of the US. All that red space in between the coasts. Later in life, as I travel around and watch what happens in the US, I'm convinced more than ever this is the legacy of slavery still haunting us today.

behindmyscreen 8y ago

Changing the H1B visa to let holders change companies easily would be a good start at removing the pay disparity and incentive to not hire qualified US workers.

ece 8y ago
Letting them be promoted within a job would be a good start too. If reforms like this happened, the incentive for companies to abuse the system would go down. Setting up fake staffing companies would still be a problem, but catching immigration/employment fraud is a different problem and should be resourced appropriately.

duaoebg 8y ago

That’s not why America is the most powerful. To sum it up “cheap credit.” No other place will give you access to money so cheaply.

sremani 8y ago
Capital accumulation is the right word.
adventured 8y ago
If cheap credit made countries powerful, Japan would be the most powerful country in world history. They've had access to among the cheapest rates of credit for two decades, a time in which their economic output has gone nowhere. Cheap credit helps one party and harms another within a country. It doesn't make a nation powerful. Technology, invention, scientific output, universities, capital for investment, scale, production / manufacturing, attractiveness to foreign talent and investment, modestly sane regulatory and tax policies, strong protections for property rights, ease of establishing and doing business, ease of trade, etc. Those are a few of the things that help to make a nation powerful. Those are things the US has either been the leader in or one of the leaders for the last century plus. Much of Western Europe has had cheaper borrowing than the US for many years now, including in real-estate, corporate borrowing and at the government level. It didn't spur a great boom and increase their power. At best it has helped them tread water, which is all it did for Japan.

ausjke 8y ago

As far as I know, while Chinese students are way more than India students in USA, Indian H1B holders are about 4~5 times more than Chinese. In short, the vast majority(about 50+%) H1Bs are taken by India, Chinese is about 10%. Indians abuses the system severely by setting up phony staffing companies and do fake multiple filings on h1b application, etc. There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. I will not be surprised someday they will be sued for not following equal job rights.

jhwang5 8y ago
This. I have observed this at FAANG as well as wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened at Oracle. Would explain the data anyways.
namelezz 8y ago
> if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians It can get worse. "Woman was told she’d be fired if she didn’t marry boss’s Indian relative so he could immigrate here" - [0] 0 - https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdressers-sham-marriage/ https://www.surreynowleader.com/news/judge-annuls-hairdresse...
- screye 8y ago
  Just saying, this isn't quite relevant to CS. This was a hairdresser with a business. So, the Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated. It is disingenuous to extrapolate that to H1Bs. Secondly, this happened in Canada where Sikh/Punjabi immigration was not skill based, but rather fueled by mostly uneducated people looking for a better life. This is completely in contrast to the H1B which is a skill based employment visa.
  - namelezz 8y ago
    > Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated Here are some educated managers in US tech companies - [0] 0 - https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suck-JJsmfgzz https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suc...

drawkbox 8y ago

> America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. I agree, there is a non-quota limited O visa for temporary workers for the best and brightest [1]. >> The O-1 nonimmigrant visa is for the individual who possesses extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics, or who has a demonstrated record of extraordinary achievement in the motion picture or television industry and has been recognized nationally or internationally for those achievements. H-1B is also required for jobs that can't be filled but is definitely being abused. The best and brightest from around the world can ALWAYS get in with no limit with the O visa [2]. >> There is a misconception about the H-1B program that it was designed to allow companies to import workers with unique talents. There has long been a visa program for exactly that purpose. The O (for outstanding) visa program is for importing geniuses and nothing else. Interestingly enough, the O visa program has no quotas. The H-1B abuse is more a situation where large companies are abusing it to lower labor costs and wages while owning employees. It will never affect the best and brightest from working in the US by getting an O visa though. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker... [2] https://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/ https://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know...

screye 8y ago
> I agree, there is a non-quota limited O visa for temporary workers for the best and brightest Just saying, the requirements of the O visa are usually very unreasonable. An application must satisfy 3 of the below requirements: 1. Receipt of nationally or internationally recognized prizes or awards for excellence in the field of endeavor 2. Membership in associations in the field for which classification is sought which require outstanding achievements, as judged by recognized national or international experts in the field 3. Published material in professional or major trade publications, newspapers or other major media about the beneficiary and the beneficiary’s work in the field for which classification is sought 4. Original scientific, scholarly, or business-related contributions of major significance in the field 5. Authorship of scholarly articles in professional journals or other major media in the field for which classification is sought 6. A high salary or other remuneration for services as evidenced by contracts or other reliable evidence Participation on a panel, or individually, as a judge of the work of others in the same or in a field of specialization allied to that field for which classification is sought Employment in a critical or essential capacity for organizations and establishments that have a distinguished reputation Afaik, this would usually put a person in the domain of top PhD student or professor. I doubt any masters/undergrad would be able to qualify for such a requirement. A PhD isn't for everyone, and IMO isn't always positively correlated with intelligence. (in that many of the smartest people have no intention of going into research /academia). The kind of people from India who would qualify for the O-1 would usually be in the 99.99th percentile. At that point we aren't just talking about the smartest people. These people go beyond that. (at least in CS, where PhDs are very competitive)

porpoisely 8y ago

We are the most powerful nation on earth because of our immense resources, geographic diversity, access to almost every major ocean and lack of powerful enemies on our border. Geography is destiny. Having the most arable land, having exploited the most oil, having access to the pacific, atlantic, arctic, etc and the ability to develop in peace due to having much weaker nations on our border is why we are a superpower. The idea that we are the greatest nation because we have the best and brightest from around the world is simply not true. If it was true, our immigration policy would be based on IQ today. China can't be a superpower because they are hemmed in by Russia to the north, India to the south, US/Japan/Korea alliance in the east and Iran/Central Asia/Middle East to the west. If it is true that number of "geniuses" makes a nation the most powerful in the world, the most powerful nations would have been china and india. We know that's not the case. So your theory contradicts itself.

williesleg 8y ago

That's fake news. India and China have been screwed up for centuries. Their culture breeds it. The smartest Indian programmers still just do the needful. I've seen lots of projects ruined by their basic values being so out of sync with the western world.

analog31 8y ago

I agree, with one tiny quibble. My emphasis would not be about gathering people per se, but about educating them. OF course, tolerance of immigrants is key to keeping our doors open for students from overseas. Our higher education system, embattled as it is, remains the envy of the world.

TheBobinator 8y ago

When someone confuses a temporary work permit used to bring in scarce foreign labor to fill gaps in the labor market, with a permanent work permit that brings geniuses to the united states to live their lives, ignoring everything that goes in between including family, politics, and motivation. When someone appears to be unbelievably naieve, they are often trying to sell you something. Either you're a foreigner who wants to convince us you're worth it, or you're a a corporate plant.

tagrun 8y ago

You're not making much sense to me. How can the genius ratio in the US and China can be the same if US kept importing the "best and the brightest, gathered from around the world", assuming that Chinese "are not superior genetically"?