5 ms·

Should Canada leave the aboriginal reserve, because it makes more sense?

by snambi 8y ago

mynegation 8y ago
No, US should do it. But seriously though, the territory spans both US and Canada. Why is Canada different from the US in that regard?
vkou 8y ago
The thing that would make the most sense would be to allow the First Nations tribe in question to vote on which country it should belong to, and, regardless of the outcome of the vote, to grant all residents of it dual citizenship (Due to existing ties that members of the tribe have to persons living outside of the reserve.) Everything else either: 1. Compromises the border. (If you don't care about the border, then this point is, of course, negotiable.) 2. Draws an arbitrary geopolitical line, that benefits[1] two super-powers[2], at the expense of the rights and freedoms of a nation, that has been there long before the existence of Canada and the United States, and will likely remain long after. [1] Actually, it's not even clear if there are any benefits to the current state of affairs. [2] Think Germany, being split in half by the East/West border - or the Berlin wall. It sure as hell wasn't built for the benefit of the Germans.
- amelius 8y ago
  How about a temporary change of the border? I.e., an agreement where one party gives up the region until they decide to have it back.
  - vkou 8y ago
    If you do that, the problem will shift to bouncing people around between two incompatible social and economic systems. "You are now subjects of Canada, until at some indeterminate point in the future, half of you will become Americans. Again." The land these people live on is not of vital importance to either country. As such, we should be doing right by the people who live on it.
    - azernik 8y ago
      That kind of "temporary" solution that lasts forever in practice is a good way to get around national sovereignty sensitivities, though.
      - vkou 8y ago
        This may make Washington and Ottawa feel good (Because it lets both sides save face), but is going to be pretty shitty for the people living in said territory, if it ever goes back to being split. If it will never be re-split, then it's a de-facto annexation. In which case, I'd prefer that the residents vote on it.
  - bhickey 8y ago
    A condominium arrangement[0] seems like a pretty reasonable to resolve this. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_(international_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_(international_law...
- labster 8y ago
  The obvious solution is for the United States to negotiate an open border with Canada. Policy changes might be needed on both sides, but the economic benefits of open borders between allies with similar economies is undeniable.
  - bmer 8y ago
    Canadian here, and I'd like to say: uh, no, thanks. Canada has a very different culture than the US. Examples: * compare types of crimes, and rates of crimes in major Canadian cities versus major US cities * existence of many "socialist" policies, which all work on the following: "you contribute a small amount uniform across all citizens, to the national piggy bank, and the national piggy bank doles out to those in need (which may very well be you, but hopefully not, because things are likely not going to be in a good place for you then)" * existence of media which would be "drowned" out by the US, if it weren't protected/supported by the government (e.g. CBC) * different viewpoint on how to integrate minorities and First Nations so that everyone can prosper, together---partially because of the way history played out (not because "we're better") * different take on nationalism I actually get the US's immigration concerns. I really wouldn't want Americans flooding into Canada (no offense, but yeah, there are just major cultural issues which would need to be fixed first, otherwise the majority will just "win out"). Reading my post, I begin to realize that it could be taken very negatively. I want to convey the fact that my parents chose to immigrate to Canada, and not the US, for a reason. We would feel really weird if the countries somehow started to "integrate" further, unless it was Canadian "culture" that dominated. Otherwise, I am not sure if home would feel like home anymore (I don't feel like an outsider in Canada, but I often do feel like an outsider when I visit the US). Immigrants who arrive to the country are usually extremely grateful, and willing to integrate into the bigger picture, or at least, that's the vision that Canada seems to operate under. This seems to create lower levels of "tension", less "ghetto-ization", and so on. I think that's the biggest culture difference between Canada and the US: most people aren't constantly thinking about the worst that could happen, and the worst generally doesn't happen. I might be totally wrong. Scratch that: I really hope I am totally wrong.
    - labster 8y ago
- caf 8y ago
  Surely the easiest thing is to allow genuine permanent residents of Akwesasne - on either side of the border - to apply for some kind of special permit that allows them to just self-report their entry and exit over the phone.
- goodcanadian 8y ago
  The thing that would make the most sense would be to allow the First Nations tribe in question to vote on which country it should belong to . . . The thing is that they mostly consider themselves independent. I'm not sure such a vote would get a meaningful result, and it would probably raise tensions rather than lower them.
  - vkou 8y ago
    They may consider themselves independent, but in practice, would probably prefer to be a part of one of the two countries, compared to being a land-locked micro-state, or the status quo.
- Asooka 8y ago
  Or the reserve could be a special administrative region that's partly Canadian and partly USA territory within which travel is unrestricted (sort of like Hong Kong). With two border posts - one on the border of the reserve and Canada and one on the border of the USA and Canada. But of course the problem here isn't lack of sensible solutions, it's political fuckupery.

Should Canada leave the aboriginal reserve, because it makes more sense?

by snambi 8y ago

Should Canada leave the aboriginal reserve, because it makes more sense?

No, US should do it. But seriously though, the territory spans both US and Canada. Why is Canada different from the US in that regard?

vkou 8y ago

The thing that would make the most sense would be to allow the First Nations tribe in question to vote on which country it should belong to, and, regardless of the outcome of the vote, to grant all residents of it dual citizenship (Due to existing ties that members of the tribe have to persons living outside of the reserve.) Everything else either: 1. Compromises the border. (If you don't care about the border, then this point is, of course, negotiable.) 2. Draws an arbitrary geopolitical line, that benefits[1] two super-powers[2], at the expense of the rights and freedoms of a nation, that has been there long before the existence of Canada and the United States, and will likely remain long after. [1] Actually, it's not even clear if there are any benefits to the current state of affairs. [2] Think Germany, being split in half by the East/West border - or the Berlin wall. It sure as hell wasn't built for the benefit of the Germans.

amelius 8y ago
How about a temporary change of the border? I.e., an agreement where one party gives up the region until they decide to have it back.
- vkou 8y ago
  If you do that, the problem will shift to bouncing people around between two incompatible social and economic systems. "You are now subjects of Canada, until at some indeterminate point in the future, half of you will become Americans. Again." The land these people live on is not of vital importance to either country. As such, we should be doing right by the people who live on it.
  - azernik 8y ago
    That kind of "temporary" solution that lasts forever in practice is a good way to get around national sovereignty sensitivities, though.
    - vkou 8y ago
      This may make Washington and Ottawa feel good (Because it lets both sides save face), but is going to be pretty shitty for the people living in said territory, if it ever goes back to being split. If it will never be re-split, then it's a de-facto annexation. In which case, I'd prefer that the residents vote on it.
- bhickey 8y ago
  A condominium arrangement[0] seems like a pretty reasonable to resolve this. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_(international_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_(international_law...
labster 8y ago
The obvious solution is for the United States to negotiate an open border with Canada. Policy changes might be needed on both sides, but the economic benefits of open borders between allies with similar economies is undeniable.
- bmer 8y ago
  Canadian here, and I'd like to say: uh, no, thanks. Canada has a very different culture than the US. Examples: * compare types of crimes, and rates of crimes in major Canadian cities versus major US cities * existence of many "socialist" policies, which all work on the following: "you contribute a small amount uniform across all citizens, to the national piggy bank, and the national piggy bank doles out to those in need (which may very well be you, but hopefully not, because things are likely not going to be in a good place for you then)" * existence of media which would be "drowned" out by the US, if it weren't protected/supported by the government (e.g. CBC) * different viewpoint on how to integrate minorities and First Nations so that everyone can prosper, together---partially because of the way history played out (not because "we're better") * different take on nationalism I actually get the US's immigration concerns. I really wouldn't want Americans flooding into Canada (no offense, but yeah, there are just major cultural issues which would need to be fixed first, otherwise the majority will just "win out"). Reading my post, I begin to realize that it could be taken very negatively. I want to convey the fact that my parents chose to immigrate to Canada, and not the US, for a reason. We would feel really weird if the countries somehow started to "integrate" further, unless it was Canadian "culture" that dominated. Otherwise, I am not sure if home would feel like home anymore (I don't feel like an outsider in Canada, but I often do feel like an outsider when I visit the US). Immigrants who arrive to the country are usually extremely grateful, and willing to integrate into the bigger picture, or at least, that's the vision that Canada seems to operate under. This seems to create lower levels of "tension", less "ghetto-ization", and so on. I think that's the biggest culture difference between Canada and the US: most people aren't constantly thinking about the worst that could happen, and the worst generally doesn't happen. I might be totally wrong. Scratch that: I really hope I am totally wrong.
  - labster 8y ago
caf 8y ago
Surely the easiest thing is to allow genuine permanent residents of Akwesasne - on either side of the border - to apply for some kind of special permit that allows them to just self-report their entry and exit over the phone.
goodcanadian 8y ago
The thing that would make the most sense would be to allow the First Nations tribe in question to vote on which country it should belong to . . . The thing is that they mostly consider themselves independent. I'm not sure such a vote would get a meaningful result, and it would probably raise tensions rather than lower them.
- vkou 8y ago
  They may consider themselves independent, but in practice, would probably prefer to be a part of one of the two countries, compared to being a land-locked micro-state, or the status quo.
Asooka 8y ago
Or the reserve could be a special administrative region that's partly Canadian and partly USA territory within which travel is unrestricted (sort of like Hong Kong). With two border posts - one on the border of the reserve and Canada and one on the border of the USA and Canada. But of course the problem here isn't lack of sensible solutions, it's political fuckupery.