9 ms·

The difference is that software engineers, especially those at Google, have high social mobility and are well educated. I think that unions are inefficient, but

by Aunche 8y ago

The difference is that software engineers, especially those at Google, have high social mobility and are well educated. I think that unions are inefficient, but I'm sympathetic towards or even support most of them because those workers don't have a better option. Googlers just come off as entitled. They should be intelligent enough to acknowledge when they're making clickbaity populist arguments that misrepresent complex issues, but they turn a blind eye to it. Calling out these arguments doesn't mean I support large corporations trampling over the weak.

gcb0 8y ago
let me try to help you fill the data you assumed with concrete examples. search H1b applications for google and other companies. you will see google hires with 60-100k salaries. being stuck for 10yrs on the lowest end of our category pay is very far from "high social mobility"
- ben_jones 8y ago
  Only one data point but this [1] suggests otherwise. It invalidates the idea that the median is in the < 100k range however it does not speak to mobility, i.e. that you may be stuck with an entry level salary for a longtime because you are indentured to the company that facilitated your H1b. [1]: https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job=SOFTWARE+ENGINEER&city=&year=ALL+YEARS https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job=SOFTWARE+EN...
  - Roboprog 8y ago
    Median $127K on that search, FWIW Well over $100K, but that won’t go as far in San Jose as it would in Sacramento :-)
  - int_19h 8y ago
    Google sponsors its H1B employees for green cards. If the goal was to lock in the workforce to pay them less, they wouldn't be doing that. Most actual H1B abuse happens in companies like Tata and Infosys, that are structured around it.
- zavi 8y ago
  Software engineers don't get hired to Google with 60-100k salaries, not even close.
  - throwaway17159 8y ago
    They do: I was. Admittedly, at the top end of that range, and so one might argue that inflation has hopefully made that statement not true now (I would hope Google's hiring salaries have kept up), but the person you're responding to is also discussing H-1B, and I would expect the salaries there are not as attractive as normal hires.
    - zavi 8y ago
      Salaries for h1b cannot be lower than salaries for others by law. And nobody gets a total comp under 100k anymore.
      - stale2002 8y ago
        > Salaries for h1b cannot be lower than salaries for others by law. Yes that is the law. And companies break that law all of the time.
- SubuSS 8y ago
  Yeah those salary markers don't include the RSU :)
- lsc 8y ago
  $60-100K sounds really unlikely for engineering positions. A poster a bit down claims $127K, which sounds low but not unbelievably low for base salary. I can only really talk about my own experience, but I think the paysa total comp numbers are close enough to throw rocks at the truth.
Itaxpica 8y ago
Funny how people only ever use "entitled" to describe labor demanding better treatment from management, but never to describe management demanding that labor do more for less.
- daveheq 8y ago
  There's a difference between "entitled" and "self-entitled"; so many people abuse the word.
  - DoctorOetker 8y ago
    if the quote is >Googlers just come off as entitled then "entitled" does seem to be the same concept you refer to as "self-entitled" ... I don't mind people proposing different uses of language, but the person you are responding to literally quoted "entitled" which in original context meant exactly what you refer to as "self-entitled" so I really see no value in your "correction" or was that a "self-correction" ?
  - yyyymmddhhmmss 8y ago
    No. There is not a fundamental difference. The only difference is that one is more particular to the nature of the entitlement.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > There's a difference between "entitled" and "self-entitled" The former is a superset of the latter and the former term is often used for the latter, as here, where the specific subset being referenced is clear from context. > so many people abuse the word. Not particularly; natural language is just subject to more contextual nuance in meaning than most computer code.
- Aunche 8y ago
  Every time an Googler has a minor complaint about something that is miles away from their area of expertise expertise, it blows up to the front page of Hacker News. That's what I find entitled. They can't accept that one of the largest companies in the world is not going to bend to the wills. This happened with the Damore memo or project Maven, so they feed misleading information to the media to get populist pressure on their company. Now, everyone is acting suprised that Google is looking into protective measures.
lrem 8y ago
Google, while known for software engineering, employs also people in other professions: - salespeople, - tech support, - cooks, - childcare providers, - all kind of office support folk, - data entry, hmmm, technicians? - probably many more I can't think of. Not all of them can have it as nice as we do.
- noir_lord 8y ago
  > Not all of them can have it as nice as we do. As nice as we do right now for a subset. You know who companies spend a lot of time and resources trying to replace (even when it doesn't make sense)...their highest paid employees (that aren't executives, they earn their money! /s). We get away with what we do because the number of (competent) programmers has lagged the demand for programmers since I was a kid back in the 80's. It won't last.
- billhathaway 8y ago
  Almost all the cooks/childcare providers, office support, etc are contractors not employees. A significant amount of SWE and other technical roles are contractors as well. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/25/alphabet-google-employed-more-contractors-than-direct-employees-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/25/alphabet-google-employed-mor...
  - lrem 8y ago
    And one of the main themes of the walkout was to deal with that.
  - my_username_is_ 8y ago
    The mechanism by which they get paid (W2 vs 1099) isn't important. The parent comment was listing several occupations that people fill at Google that don't fit the idea of "highly compensated software engineer" as examples of people who may be interested in organizing in search of better working conditions. For what it's worth, I don't agree with the implication of the comment--it isn't fair to say software engineers can't have any reason to organize or protest against things that their company does.
- 8y ago
firstplacelast 8y ago
If those at Google are truly top-tier talent (which I think many are) and if they work in an industry and for a company that is all about disruption, why is this even a valid mentality? "This thing sucks, so let's just do business as usual." If they are truly talented disruptors, their mentality would be "this thing sucks, we can make it better and bring it into the 21st century."
- eecsninja 8y ago
  Who says the company is all about disruption? According to Keith Rabois: https://www.quora.com/Why-have-so-few-successful-startups-come-out-of-Google/answer/Keith-Rabois https://www.quora.com/Why-have-so-few-successful-startups-co... "In addition, after Google became successful, the type of candidate who applied and was hired shifted from the entrepreneurial to the smart yet homogeneous type. (Shift was pronounced by 2005.) As I have observed previously, only disruptive people create disruptive companies. (Stated differently, great entrepreneurs do not tolerate rules and constraints very well). Google has screened out personalities of this sort since at least 2004 and maybe since 2002."
  - firstplacelast 8y ago
    Well their moonshot (project X or whatever) companies/ideas say this. However, it is true that their a massive company and thus are less about disruption than start-ups. However, Silicon Valley and the people that work their seem to love to talk about "being disruptors," it seems to be quite the badge-of-honor even if your only knowledge of it is via HN.
zeckalpha 8y ago
Or are those with high social mobility and education more likely to be software engineers? Part of this issue is the need to include those with less social mobility at birth and those with less education in the software process. Correlation doesn’t imply causation: this goes both directions.

by Aunche 8y ago

gcb0 8y ago

let me try to help you fill the data you assumed with concrete examples. search H1b applications for google and other companies. you will see google hires with 60-100k salaries. being stuck for 10yrs on the lowest end of our category pay is very far from "high social mobility"

ben_jones 8y ago
Only one data point but this [1] suggests otherwise. It invalidates the idea that the median is in the < 100k range however it does not speak to mobility, i.e. that you may be stuck with an entry level salary for a longtime because you are indentured to the company that facilitated your H1b. [1]: https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job=SOFTWARE+ENGINEER&city=&year=ALL+YEARS https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job=SOFTWARE+EN...
- Roboprog 8y ago
  Median $127K on that search, FWIW Well over $100K, but that won’t go as far in San Jose as it would in Sacramento :-)
- int_19h 8y ago
  Google sponsors its H1B employees for green cards. If the goal was to lock in the workforce to pay them less, they wouldn't be doing that. Most actual H1B abuse happens in companies like Tata and Infosys, that are structured around it.
zavi 8y ago
Software engineers don't get hired to Google with 60-100k salaries, not even close.
- throwaway17159 8y ago
  They do: I was. Admittedly, at the top end of that range, and so one might argue that inflation has hopefully made that statement not true now (I would hope Google's hiring salaries have kept up), but the person you're responding to is also discussing H-1B, and I would expect the salaries there are not as attractive as normal hires.
  - zavi 8y ago
    Salaries for h1b cannot be lower than salaries for others by law. And nobody gets a total comp under 100k anymore.
    - stale2002 8y ago
      > Salaries for h1b cannot be lower than salaries for others by law. Yes that is the law. And companies break that law all of the time.
SubuSS 8y ago
Yeah those salary markers don't include the RSU :)
lsc 8y ago
$60-100K sounds really unlikely for engineering positions. A poster a bit down claims $127K, which sounds low but not unbelievably low for base salary. I can only really talk about my own experience, but I think the paysa total comp numbers are close enough to throw rocks at the truth.

Itaxpica 8y ago

Funny how people only ever use "entitled" to describe labor demanding better treatment from management, but never to describe management demanding that labor do more for less.

daveheq 8y ago
There's a difference between "entitled" and "self-entitled"; so many people abuse the word.
- DoctorOetker 8y ago
  if the quote is >Googlers just come off as entitled then "entitled" does seem to be the same concept you refer to as "self-entitled" ... I don't mind people proposing different uses of language, but the person you are responding to literally quoted "entitled" which in original context meant exactly what you refer to as "self-entitled" so I really see no value in your "correction" or was that a "self-correction" ?
- yyyymmddhhmmss 8y ago
  No. There is not a fundamental difference. The only difference is that one is more particular to the nature of the entitlement.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > There's a difference between "entitled" and "self-entitled" The former is a superset of the latter and the former term is often used for the latter, as here, where the specific subset being referenced is clear from context. > so many people abuse the word. Not particularly; natural language is just subject to more contextual nuance in meaning than most computer code.
Aunche 8y ago
Every time an Googler has a minor complaint about something that is miles away from their area of expertise expertise, it blows up to the front page of Hacker News. That's what I find entitled. They can't accept that one of the largest companies in the world is not going to bend to the wills. This happened with the Damore memo or project Maven, so they feed misleading information to the media to get populist pressure on their company. Now, everyone is acting suprised that Google is looking into protective measures.

lrem 8y ago

Google, while known for software engineering, employs also people in other professions: - salespeople, - tech support, - cooks, - childcare providers, - all kind of office support folk, - data entry, hmmm, technicians? - probably many more I can't think of. Not all of them can have it as nice as we do.

noir_lord 8y ago
> Not all of them can have it as nice as we do. As nice as we do right now for a subset. You know who companies spend a lot of time and resources trying to replace (even when it doesn't make sense)...their highest paid employees (that aren't executives, they earn their money! /s). We get away with what we do because the number of (competent) programmers has lagged the demand for programmers since I was a kid back in the 80's. It won't last.
billhathaway 8y ago
Almost all the cooks/childcare providers, office support, etc are contractors not employees. A significant amount of SWE and other technical roles are contractors as well. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/25/alphabet-google-employed-more-contractors-than-direct-employees-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/25/alphabet-google-employed-mor...
- lrem 8y ago
  And one of the main themes of the walkout was to deal with that.
- my_username_is_ 8y ago
  The mechanism by which they get paid (W2 vs 1099) isn't important. The parent comment was listing several occupations that people fill at Google that don't fit the idea of "highly compensated software engineer" as examples of people who may be interested in organizing in search of better working conditions. For what it's worth, I don't agree with the implication of the comment--it isn't fair to say software engineers can't have any reason to organize or protest against things that their company does.
8y ago

firstplacelast 8y ago

If those at Google are truly top-tier talent (which I think many are) and if they work in an industry and for a company that is all about disruption, why is this even a valid mentality? "This thing sucks, so let's just do business as usual." If they are truly talented disruptors, their mentality would be "this thing sucks, we can make it better and bring it into the 21st century."

eecsninja 8y ago
Who says the company is all about disruption? According to Keith Rabois: https://www.quora.com/Why-have-so-few-successful-startups-come-out-of-Google/answer/Keith-Rabois https://www.quora.com/Why-have-so-few-successful-startups-co... "In addition, after Google became successful, the type of candidate who applied and was hired shifted from the entrepreneurial to the smart yet homogeneous type. (Shift was pronounced by 2005.) As I have observed previously, only disruptive people create disruptive companies. (Stated differently, great entrepreneurs do not tolerate rules and constraints very well). Google has screened out personalities of this sort since at least 2004 and maybe since 2002."
- firstplacelast 8y ago
  Well their moonshot (project X or whatever) companies/ideas say this. However, it is true that their a massive company and thus are less about disruption than start-ups. However, Silicon Valley and the people that work their seem to love to talk about "being disruptors," it seems to be quite the badge-of-honor even if your only knowledge of it is via HN.

zeckalpha 8y ago

Or are those with high social mobility and education more likely to be software engineers? Part of this issue is the need to include those with less social mobility at birth and those with less education in the software process. Correlation doesn’t imply causation: this goes both directions.