9 ms·

Period-Tracking Apps Are Monetizing Women’s Extremely Personal Data

89 points by montalbano 8y ago

jawns 8y ago
It sounds like the extent of the monetization of this data (for now) is targeted in-app advertisements. And the ads sound like they're targeted on relatively tame demographic data, like a person's age, as opposed to the more private data the app collects (e.g. how often a woman has sex or where a woman is in her cycle). And even if that sensitive data were used for targeting, I would imagine it would be for things like, "Show ads for lubricants if a person is sexually active" or "Show ads for tampons during the week prior to menstruation." Which doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the app. I think the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties, or if it is used to make decisions that aren't tied to the data being tracked. For instance, imagine if insurance companies determined that there is a difference in risk between people who have sex frequently vs. infrequently and wanted to use this data to inform their underwriting decisions. That's where it gets scary.
- danesparza 8y ago
  "doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the app" "the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties" Aren't these two statements in direct conflict with one another?
  - darawk 8y ago
    Maybe indirect. They may not currently be selling that data.
  - jawns 8y ago
    A third party doesn't need to know who you are to advertise to you. If I'm an app user, and I see an ad targeted to people who are toward the end of their cycle, then the only thing the third party knows about me is that I'm toward the end of my cycle. They don't know my name or address or other PII simply by virtue of advertising to me. But if an app sells this data to a third party and includes PII that allows the third party to make observations such as, "Jane Doe did X on date Y," then that's certainly a privacy concern.
    - x220 8y ago
      So if one company has that information it's OK, but once two companies have it it's a privacy concern?
      - MSM 8y ago
        The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. If they sell it to other people without consent, that's an issue. It would be like if I went into H&R Block to get my taxes done. Should I be worried that they have my SSN and earnings? No, because they need that information to do the task that I'm asking of them. If they sell that to other places yes, that's a huge issue.
        x220 8y ago
        >The application is specifically meant to track this information So a privacy risk is the cost of doing business. Knowing about it upfront and consenting to the data collection doesn't negate that. If H&R block stores all of the data you give them forever, that's a privacy concern because they could be hacked or they could (depending on relevant laws) change their mind and decide to share or sell some of that data in the future.
        MSM 8y ago
        Ideally if they have that information and it's released (either via hacking or sold without consent) the company could be sued. Unfortunately that's not the case today. You're arguing that anyone knowing anything is a privacy concern which is over the top in my eyes. You could never use a bank, file taxes, get a paycheck, hell you couldn't even ever get a job with it being a "risk" because your employer has a ton of info on you.
        flukus 8y ago
        > The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. Being male I'm not familiar with the features offered by period trackers, but is there any valid reason the information has to leave your device at all?
  - x220 8y ago
    It looks like the company itself targets the ads, rather than selling the data to another company to target the ads. This shouldn't actually matter. Why do you care if your private information is in the hands of company A or company B?
    - naniwaduni 8y ago
      Often people find it different when one party has the data, and has a decent track record of not broadcasting it to the world, and when the data is widely circulated. I know around here we like to assume that all data is going to suffer a security breach someday but-- - In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. - Someday isn't today.
      - x220 8y ago
        >In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. >Someday isn't today I felt appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
        naniwaduni 8y ago
        > That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. I feel appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      Because if I can say "you may use information I give you in the app to show me ads without disclosing who I am and any of my PHI" then there's a bright line. I only need to worry about company A mishandling the data. If I allow selling, I need to know about the myriad companies that A may deal with, not just B. I have no problem sharing information for services. I just want to have controls on that.
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  Did you read the article? > Ovia is pitching a paid version of its app to insurers and large employers who want a heads-up on how many of their members or employees want to conceive. This is a WTF of epic proportions. How is this the business of either my insurance company or my employer? Edit: Also consider that supposedly "harmless" targeted advertising becomes actively traumatizing if something goes wrong around the reproductive process: https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing-does-harm-2af868098cb4 https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing...
  - moftz 8y ago
    Imagine a woman conveniently getting laid off just about the time she is trying to conceive. A company could offer paid maternity leave but lay off women right before they get pregnant. Or they could deny them a promotion because she's trying to get pregnant, why promote then when they will leave in six months? Or they apply this to potential candidates, women that don't keep track of their cycles are probably less likely to have kids soon so hire them over women that do keep track. People should be wary about handing over any information that could be used against them.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
I find it interesting that this should appear on the front page at the same time as the other post about the stigma of menstruation in India. The fact that this data is considered "extremely personal" just goes to show that it's a subject that's also highly stigmatized here in the west. In TFA they even compare it to medical history! ~50% of the adult population menstruates. I don't get what the big deal is.
- rebuilder 8y ago
  Well, wanting to predict ovulations probably means the user is trying to conceive. An unscrupulous employer might want to know that, and try to replace that employee.
  - watmough 8y ago
    Or avoid conceiving!!!!
  - nqz 8y ago
    All of my girlfriends have had period-tracking apps and we had no intention to conceive. I don't know how menstruation works but I assume it's something you have to be ready for, so you better keep your tabs on it.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Maybe you've heard of The Rhythm Method? Some people track it to avoid conception. Also, some women have health issues involving their reproductive tract, like PCOS, fibroids or even just PMS. Data can help them better understand and manage their symptoms.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      If they're using the rhythm method, their employer is still likely to want to fire them because of impending pregnancy - it has a 24% annual failure rate with typical use. https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/pdf/contraceptive_methods_508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/p...
1auralynn 8y ago
Well, I read this to see horror stories about the one I use (Clue) and it turns out that it's not actually sharing any data except with academics. So... great?
- porphyrogene 8y ago
  Why does it take an article in Bloomberg to inform you of that? If you are concerned about your information being shared by the company to which you are disclosing it then why not look into the security of your data before handing it over?
  - 1auralynn 8y ago
    I'm not overly concerned about the three data points I give them every month.
- peterlk 8y ago
  > it turns out that it's not actually sharing any data except with academics. That wouldn't make me feel better. Remember Cambridge Analytica [0]? [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/cambridge-analytica-academic-who-mined-facebook-data-aleksandr-kogan-im-a-scapegoat/ https://www.politico.eu/article/cambridge-analytica-academic...
zxcvvcxz 8y ago
This is very valuable information the apps have. A woman menstruating versus ovulating are two very different hormonal states, and can at times appear to manifest as different personalities in the same person. Thus the advertising potential is huge, very actionable data.
- kempbellt 8y ago
  Not OP, but if you're going to downvote, have the decency to leave a comment explaining why. Downvoting just because you disagree or don't like what someone said doesn't promote understanding Update: Hah. Downvoting me now? Why not contribute to the discussion instead? Edit: A little less triggering language
  - moate 8y ago
    Comments about "the process" are generally unwelcome. It's not uncommon for posts saying "this is how you should post" get down-voted. Direct appeals to up/down-vote a post are against site policy. I'll conceded that down-voting OP might have been less helpful, but down-voting your comment isn't just standard practice, it's what down-voting was added for.
    - kempbellt 8y ago
      Respectfully, I disagree. Being unwelcome towards comments about "the process" goes against what the site is about. It is a community forum designed to promote discussion and understanding. Downvoting comments you disagree with or simply dislike, without any explanation, is harmful to the community and discussion in general. Also, I made no appeal to up or down vote any comment. My appeal is simply to promote discussion.
      - moate 8y ago
        You can disagree about what the site should or shouldn't be. Honestly, not my place to really care. I'm just trying to help explain why the mob was throwing tomatoes at you. Do what that what you will, and die on any hill you please. You also had, your term here, "triggering language" and flame-baiting is typically frowned upon as well. Calling people "white (sic) nights" isn't really promoting civil discussion. I'm tapping out here, since I have nothing else to say on the topic. I have nothing against you, just some friendly advice from one firebrand to another.
ryanmarsh 8y ago
This reminds me of an old Ogilvy quote on advertising, it goes something like this: "You wouldn't tell lies to your own wife. Don't tell them to mine."
bobthechef 8y ago
> “No two cycles are exactly the same, even in the same woman,” warns Anna Glasier, a leading contraception researcher at the University of Edinburgh. An app “does nothing but rely on people not having intercourse at a certain point in the cycle. And we know that doesn’t work very well.” If the article is about privacy, then it should focus on that. The above comment seems tendentious like it betrays a prejudice against NFP as if to spread FUD about it by associating it with loss of privacy. Use a notebook or an offline app if privacy is an issue (I would).
wanderr 8y ago
Planned Parenthood has their own period tracking app called Spot On, which probably doesn't share your data.
tengbretson 8y ago
Even if this data isn't collected on behalf of a healthcare provider I don't understand why the collected information wouldn't be considered PHI and therefore subject to HIPAA's rules.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  One of HIPAA's weaknesses is that the data protection requirements only apply to certain kinds of entities - basically just health care providers. That means that data may not be covered, depending on who collects it. Worse, data that was protected can legally fall out of protection if it's shared with entities that aren't bound by HIPAA. (Which, intentionally or otherwise, is something that health care providers often request the right to do as part of those HIPAA consent forms that we all sign without reading.)
  - SkyPuncher 8y ago
    > basically just health care providers. From my understanding, it only applies to companies accepting health insurance and Medicare/Medicaid. If it's private pay/out of pocket only, HIPAA doesn't apply.
- tantalor 8y ago
  It is PHI but its not subject to HIPAA because it is collected by users, not by a hospital (for example). US law governing PHI applies to data collected in the course of providing and paying for health care. Privacy and security regulations govern how healthcare professionals, hospitals, health insurers, and other Covered Entities use and protect the data they collect. It is important to understand that the source of the data is as relevant as the data itself when determining if information is PHI under U.S. law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_health_information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_health_information This is the same reason why HIPAA does not apply to personal fitness trackers. When consumers are collecting health data for their own use, HIPAA doesn’t come into play. https://healthitsecurity.com/news/how-does-hipaa-apply-to-wearable-health-technology https://healthitsecurity.com/news/how-does-hipaa-apply-to-we...
pettersolberg 8y ago
The whole big data mining AD madness has to stop. Period.
- barkingcat 8y ago
  this comes from the cult of metrics. If you need to know all the numbers about every single thing, about every single action taken every day in order to make decisions, then it naturally results in all the data being collected. And thus having to find ways to use the data because you already spent all your money on collecting and storing this information. And if you sell it, you can make more money!
  - username223 8y ago
    "Cult of metrics" -- I like it. Perhaps "you can't improve what you can't measure," but it's also true that sometimes "you can't improve what you can measure," or that it's just not worth improving. Sure, you could pitch me a smart toilet paper dispenser (yes, this is a thing) that measures how many times it turns, then sends me coupons for toilet paper when I'm close to running out, but... it's toilet paper. I doubt your margins cover a discount I would care about, much less your server costs.
- ianmcgowan 8y ago
  It won't, as long as people prefer free services with questionable privacy policies over paying for a service.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Sure, but as long as people prefer reading through outline.com to paying for stuff don't expect it to.
motohagiography 8y ago
People are a poor source of entropy in general. You could probably infer the same information just from any cyclical device usage. Contact frequency, accelerometer patterns, Tinder/Uber usage. Sounds like the sort of predictive analytics Uber could use to micro surge price women.
- gnu8 8y ago
  The data from actual period trackers would be great for building this. Use it to train a neural network on some nVidia cards and you could dredge up all kinds of patterns in accelerometer data or Hulu viewing history and generate plenty of actionable data on women who are potentially pregnant to sell to advertisers. Isn’t there anything useful we can do with technology or are we all just bottom feeding parasites and rent seekers trying to build cash machines?
  - motohagiography 8y ago
    What would be useful?
DoreenMichele 8y ago
I imagine this is a big deal because women are vulnerable in a way and to a degree that men aren't when it comes to anything of a sexual nature or having to do with reproduction. Among other things: Society is generally okay with men having sex outside of marriage. It is much less okay with women doing the same. Men are generally not subjected to criticism for being working fathers. Quite the contrary: they are criticized if they are unemployed and have children. Women are routinely expected to choose between career and family. I have in the past commented on the fact that insurance typically did not cover female birth control, but often did cover Viagra. The subtext there: Fertile young women aren't entitled to sex, but men are, even if they are so old they need help performing. Such observations were typically met with open hostility and dismissal, not like the observation held any water. The ACA changed that some. From what I gather, most policies are required to cover some sort of female birth control, unless it falls under religious exception iirc. So this is mostly no longer true, but was at one time. My understanding is the current administration is trying to repeal this and stop covering female birth control, so such gains cannot be assumed to be permanent. It's all too easy to reverse them and reinstate historical "barefoot and pregnant" style gender norms for women. Edit: For context, I'm American and 53 years old. So I'm talking about (historical, before the ACA) American insurance practices here.
- TurpADurp 8y ago
  >It's all too easy to reverse them and reinstate historical "barefoot and pregnant" style gender norms for women. Not as long as women have the vote. I would snarkily suggest that changing demographics, the trend of religious conservatives to out reproduce coastal liberals, would undermine this short revolution...BUT we're slamming headfirst into the wall of technological change. Maybe we'll be two different species (of sorts) where men and women have their needs attended to by robots. Men seem capable of living off of entertainment and sex dolls alone. Women just need something that can pass the Turing test and look handsome. Combine that with artificial wombs and the "war of the sexes" seems to end in a stalemate. And for what do we truly fight this "war"?
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  > I have in the past commented on the fact that insurance typically did not cover female birth control, but often did cover Viagra. Total opposite in Canada across public and private plans. Never saw a private or public plan refuse to cover BC. Many would pay several hundred for an IUD as well. Rarely saw a plan cover ED drugs outside of self-insured or executive plans.
ffn 8y ago
The real problem here is that there the asymmetry in machine learning capabilities between big companies and everyday consumers. I think what we all will need in the nearby future is personalized AIs (that we all individually can "build" and "own" in the same way we currently do our personalized computers) which will negotiate the currently web against big companies on our behalf.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Not to sound like an Apple fanboy/shill, but this is one of the reasons I am still willing to throw money at Apple. As hostile as they are to software freedom in general, they know that personal data privacy is part of the value proposition for the Apple ecosystem. The Siri and Apple Maps privacy policies explicitly state that data will only be used to improve Siri and Maps, respectively. Apple CoreML is a big step in making offline machine learning accessible to app developers. Safari ships with an adblocker.
domainkiller 8y ago
one of the reasons I built nomie was for my wife to privately track her cycle.
djohnston 8y ago
why is this surprising or wrong? you give the application data, you give them permissions to use your data, and you don't pay for the application (although it seems like there are subscription models rolling out). did the author assume people were just building these things for charity?
- CarriersSuck 8y ago
  Some people do... Open source is a great example.
grillvogel 8y ago
it amazes me that people continue to be surprised by this.
deogeo 8y ago
Just another example of proprietary software betraying its users.

89 points by montalbano 8y ago

It sounds like the extent of the monetization of this data (for now) is targeted in-app advertisements. And the ads sound like they're targeted on relatively tame demographic data, like a person's age, as opposed to the more private data the app collects (e.g. how often a woman has sex or where a woman is in her cycle). And even if that sensitive data were used for targeting, I would imagine it would be for things like, "Show ads for lubricants if a person is sexually active" or "Show ads for tampons during the week prior to menstruation." Which doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the app. I think the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties, or if it is used to make decisions that aren't tied to the data being tracked. For instance, imagine if insurance companies determined that there is a difference in risk between people who have sex frequently vs. infrequently and wanted to use this data to inform their underwriting decisions. That's where it gets scary.

danesparza 8y ago
"doesn't really strike me as that privacy-invading, given the nature of the app" "the privacy implications get worse if the data is sold to third parties" Aren't these two statements in direct conflict with one another?
- darawk 8y ago
  Maybe indirect. They may not currently be selling that data.
- jawns 8y ago
  A third party doesn't need to know who you are to advertise to you. If I'm an app user, and I see an ad targeted to people who are toward the end of their cycle, then the only thing the third party knows about me is that I'm toward the end of my cycle. They don't know my name or address or other PII simply by virtue of advertising to me. But if an app sells this data to a third party and includes PII that allows the third party to make observations such as, "Jane Doe did X on date Y," then that's certainly a privacy concern.
  - x220 8y ago
    So if one company has that information it's OK, but once two companies have it it's a privacy concern?
    - MSM 8y ago
      The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. If they sell it to other people without consent, that's an issue. It would be like if I went into H&R Block to get my taxes done. Should I be worried that they have my SSN and earnings? No, because they need that information to do the task that I'm asking of them. If they sell that to other places yes, that's a huge issue.
      - x220 8y ago
        >The application is specifically meant to track this information So a privacy risk is the cost of doing business. Knowing about it upfront and consenting to the data collection doesn't negate that. If H&R block stores all of the data you give them forever, that's a privacy concern because they could be hacked or they could (depending on relevant laws) change their mind and decide to share or sell some of that data in the future.
        MSM 8y ago
        Ideally if they have that information and it's released (either via hacking or sold without consent) the company could be sued. Unfortunately that's not the case today. You're arguing that anyone knowing anything is a privacy concern which is over the top in my eyes. You could never use a bank, file taxes, get a paycheck, hell you couldn't even ever get a job with it being a "risk" because your employer has a ton of info on you.
      - flukus 8y ago
        > The application is specifically meant to track this information, so to me that's cost of doing business. Being male I'm not familiar with the features offered by period trackers, but is there any valid reason the information has to leave your device at all?
- x220 8y ago
  It looks like the company itself targets the ads, rather than selling the data to another company to target the ads. This shouldn't actually matter. Why do you care if your private information is in the hands of company A or company B?
  - naniwaduni 8y ago
    Often people find it different when one party has the data, and has a decent track record of not broadcasting it to the world, and when the data is widely circulated. I know around here we like to assume that all data is going to suffer a security breach someday but-- - In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. - Someday isn't today.
    - x220 8y ago
      >In practice, everyone has more than two levels of trust. That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. >Someday isn't today I felt appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
      - naniwaduni 8y ago
        > That is true, but that doesn't mean that two levels of trust is not a privacy concern merely because everyone does it. I feel appalled after reading this. If you genuinely hold that belief, I hope your circumstances are merciful towards you.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Because if I can say "you may use information I give you in the app to show me ads without disclosing who I am and any of my PHI" then there's a bright line. I only need to worry about company A mishandling the data. If I allow selling, I need to know about the myriad companies that A may deal with, not just B. I have no problem sharing information for services. I just want to have controls on that.
AlexandrB 8y ago
Did you read the article? > Ovia is pitching a paid version of its app to insurers and large employers who want a heads-up on how many of their members or employees want to conceive. This is a WTF of epic proportions. How is this the business of either my insurance company or my employer? Edit: Also consider that supposedly "harmless" targeted advertising becomes actively traumatizing if something goes wrong around the reproductive process: https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing-does-harm-2af868098cb4 https://medium.com/the-establishment/when-targeted-marketing...
- moftz 8y ago
  Imagine a woman conveniently getting laid off just about the time she is trying to conceive. A company could offer paid maternity leave but lay off women right before they get pregnant. Or they could deny them a promotion because she's trying to get pregnant, why promote then when they will leave in six months? Or they apply this to potential candidates, women that don't keep track of their cycles are probably less likely to have kids soon so hire them over women that do keep track. People should be wary about handing over any information that could be used against them.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago

I find it interesting that this should appear on the front page at the same time as the other post about the stigma of menstruation in India. The fact that this data is considered "extremely personal" just goes to show that it's a subject that's also highly stigmatized here in the west. In TFA they even compare it to medical history! ~50% of the adult population menstruates. I don't get what the big deal is.

rebuilder 8y ago
Well, wanting to predict ovulations probably means the user is trying to conceive. An unscrupulous employer might want to know that, and try to replace that employee.
- watmough 8y ago
  Or avoid conceiving!!!!
- nqz 8y ago
  All of my girlfriends have had period-tracking apps and we had no intention to conceive. I don't know how menstruation works but I assume it's something you have to be ready for, so you better keep your tabs on it.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  Maybe you've heard of The Rhythm Method? Some people track it to avoid conception. Also, some women have health issues involving their reproductive tract, like PCOS, fibroids or even just PMS. Data can help them better understand and manage their symptoms.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    If they're using the rhythm method, their employer is still likely to want to fire them because of impending pregnancy - it has a 24% annual failure rate with typical use. https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/pdf/contraceptive_methods_508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/p...

1auralynn 8y ago

Well, I read this to see horror stories about the one I use (Clue) and it turns out that it's not actually sharing any data except with academics. So... great?

porphyrogene 8y ago
Why does it take an article in Bloomberg to inform you of that? If you are concerned about your information being shared by the company to which you are disclosing it then why not look into the security of your data before handing it over?
- 1auralynn 8y ago
  I'm not overly concerned about the three data points I give them every month.
peterlk 8y ago
> it turns out that it's not actually sharing any data except with academics. That wouldn't make me feel better. Remember Cambridge Analytica [0]? [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/cambridge-analytica-academic-who-mined-facebook-data-aleksandr-kogan-im-a-scapegoat/ https://www.politico.eu/article/cambridge-analytica-academic...

zxcvvcxz 8y ago

This is very valuable information the apps have. A woman menstruating versus ovulating are two very different hormonal states, and can at times appear to manifest as different personalities in the same person. Thus the advertising potential is huge, very actionable data.

kempbellt 8y ago
Not OP, but if you're going to downvote, have the decency to leave a comment explaining why. Downvoting just because you disagree or don't like what someone said doesn't promote understanding Update: Hah. Downvoting me now? Why not contribute to the discussion instead? Edit: A little less triggering language
- moate 8y ago
  Comments about "the process" are generally unwelcome. It's not uncommon for posts saying "this is how you should post" get down-voted. Direct appeals to up/down-vote a post are against site policy. I'll conceded that down-voting OP might have been less helpful, but down-voting your comment isn't just standard practice, it's what down-voting was added for.
  - kempbellt 8y ago
    Respectfully, I disagree. Being unwelcome towards comments about "the process" goes against what the site is about. It is a community forum designed to promote discussion and understanding. Downvoting comments you disagree with or simply dislike, without any explanation, is harmful to the community and discussion in general. Also, I made no appeal to up or down vote any comment. My appeal is simply to promote discussion.
    - moate 8y ago
      You can disagree about what the site should or shouldn't be. Honestly, not my place to really care. I'm just trying to help explain why the mob was throwing tomatoes at you. Do what that what you will, and die on any hill you please. You also had, your term here, "triggering language" and flame-baiting is typically frowned upon as well. Calling people "white (sic) nights" isn't really promoting civil discussion. I'm tapping out here, since I have nothing else to say on the topic. I have nothing against you, just some friendly advice from one firebrand to another.

ryanmarsh 8y ago

This reminds me of an old Ogilvy quote on advertising, it goes something like this: "You wouldn't tell lies to your own wife. Don't tell them to mine."

bobthechef 8y ago

> “No two cycles are exactly the same, even in the same woman,” warns Anna Glasier, a leading contraception researcher at the University of Edinburgh. An app “does nothing but rely on people not having intercourse at a certain point in the cycle. And we know that doesn’t work very well.” If the article is about privacy, then it should focus on that. The above comment seems tendentious like it betrays a prejudice against NFP as if to spread FUD about it by associating it with loss of privacy. Use a notebook or an offline app if privacy is an issue (I would).

wanderr 8y ago

Planned Parenthood has their own period tracking app called Spot On, which probably doesn't share your data.

tengbretson 8y ago

Even if this data isn't collected on behalf of a healthcare provider I don't understand why the collected information wouldn't be considered PHI and therefore subject to HIPAA's rules.

bunderbunder 8y ago
One of HIPAA's weaknesses is that the data protection requirements only apply to certain kinds of entities - basically just health care providers. That means that data may not be covered, depending on who collects it. Worse, data that was protected can legally fall out of protection if it's shared with entities that aren't bound by HIPAA. (Which, intentionally or otherwise, is something that health care providers often request the right to do as part of those HIPAA consent forms that we all sign without reading.)
- SkyPuncher 8y ago
  > basically just health care providers. From my understanding, it only applies to companies accepting health insurance and Medicare/Medicaid. If it's private pay/out of pocket only, HIPAA doesn't apply.
tantalor 8y ago
It is PHI but its not subject to HIPAA because it is collected by users, not by a hospital (for example). US law governing PHI applies to data collected in the course of providing and paying for health care. Privacy and security regulations govern how healthcare professionals, hospitals, health insurers, and other Covered Entities use and protect the data they collect. It is important to understand that the source of the data is as relevant as the data itself when determining if information is PHI under U.S. law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_health_information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_health_information This is the same reason why HIPAA does not apply to personal fitness trackers. When consumers are collecting health data for their own use, HIPAA doesn’t come into play. https://healthitsecurity.com/news/how-does-hipaa-apply-to-wearable-health-technology https://healthitsecurity.com/news/how-does-hipaa-apply-to-we...

pettersolberg 8y ago

The whole big data mining AD madness has to stop. Period.

barkingcat 8y ago
this comes from the cult of metrics. If you need to know all the numbers about every single thing, about every single action taken every day in order to make decisions, then it naturally results in all the data being collected. And thus having to find ways to use the data because you already spent all your money on collecting and storing this information. And if you sell it, you can make more money!
- username223 8y ago
  "Cult of metrics" -- I like it. Perhaps "you can't improve what you can't measure," but it's also true that sometimes "you can't improve what you can measure," or that it's just not worth improving. Sure, you could pitch me a smart toilet paper dispenser (yes, this is a thing) that measures how many times it turns, then sends me coupons for toilet paper when I'm close to running out, but... it's toilet paper. I doubt your margins cover a discount I would care about, much less your server costs.
ianmcgowan 8y ago
It won't, as long as people prefer free services with questionable privacy policies over paying for a service.
scarejunba 8y ago
Sure, but as long as people prefer reading through outline.com to paying for stuff don't expect it to.

motohagiography 8y ago

People are a poor source of entropy in general. You could probably infer the same information just from any cyclical device usage. Contact frequency, accelerometer patterns, Tinder/Uber usage. Sounds like the sort of predictive analytics Uber could use to micro surge price women.

gnu8 8y ago
The data from actual period trackers would be great for building this. Use it to train a neural network on some nVidia cards and you could dredge up all kinds of patterns in accelerometer data or Hulu viewing history and generate plenty of actionable data on women who are potentially pregnant to sell to advertisers. Isn’t there anything useful we can do with technology or are we all just bottom feeding parasites and rent seekers trying to build cash machines?
- motohagiography 8y ago
  What would be useful?

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I imagine this is a big deal because women are vulnerable in a way and to a degree that men aren't when it comes to anything of a sexual nature or having to do with reproduction. Among other things: Society is generally okay with men having sex outside of marriage. It is much less okay with women doing the same. Men are generally not subjected to criticism for being working fathers. Quite the contrary: they are criticized if they are unemployed and have children. Women are routinely expected to choose between career and family. I have in the past commented on the fact that insurance typically did not cover female birth control, but often did cover Viagra. The subtext there: Fertile young women aren't entitled to sex, but men are, even if they are so old they need help performing. Such observations were typically met with open hostility and dismissal, not like the observation held any water. The ACA changed that some. From what I gather, most policies are required to cover some sort of female birth control, unless it falls under religious exception iirc. So this is mostly no longer true, but was at one time. My understanding is the current administration is trying to repeal this and stop covering female birth control, so such gains cannot be assumed to be permanent. It's all too easy to reverse them and reinstate historical "barefoot and pregnant" style gender norms for women. Edit: For context, I'm American and 53 years old. So I'm talking about (historical, before the ACA) American insurance practices here.

TurpADurp 8y ago
>It's all too easy to reverse them and reinstate historical "barefoot and pregnant" style gender norms for women. Not as long as women have the vote. I would snarkily suggest that changing demographics, the trend of religious conservatives to out reproduce coastal liberals, would undermine this short revolution...BUT we're slamming headfirst into the wall of technological change. Maybe we'll be two different species (of sorts) where men and women have their needs attended to by robots. Men seem capable of living off of entertainment and sex dolls alone. Women just need something that can pass the Turing test and look handsome. Combine that with artificial wombs and the "war of the sexes" seems to end in a stalemate. And for what do we truly fight this "war"?
Scoundreller 8y ago
> I have in the past commented on the fact that insurance typically did not cover female birth control, but often did cover Viagra. Total opposite in Canada across public and private plans. Never saw a private or public plan refuse to cover BC. Many would pay several hundred for an IUD as well. Rarely saw a plan cover ED drugs outside of self-insured or executive plans.

ffn 8y ago

The real problem here is that there the asymmetry in machine learning capabilities between big companies and everyday consumers. I think what we all will need in the nearby future is personalized AIs (that we all individually can "build" and "own" in the same way we currently do our personalized computers) which will negotiate the currently web against big companies on our behalf.

nerdponx 8y ago
Not to sound like an Apple fanboy/shill, but this is one of the reasons I am still willing to throw money at Apple. As hostile as they are to software freedom in general, they know that personal data privacy is part of the value proposition for the Apple ecosystem. The Siri and Apple Maps privacy policies explicitly state that data will only be used to improve Siri and Maps, respectively. Apple CoreML is a big step in making offline machine learning accessible to app developers. Safari ships with an adblocker.

domainkiller 8y ago

one of the reasons I built nomie was for my wife to privately track her cycle.

djohnston 8y ago

why is this surprising or wrong? you give the application data, you give them permissions to use your data, and you don't pay for the application (although it seems like there are subscription models rolling out). did the author assume people were just building these things for charity?

CarriersSuck 8y ago
Some people do... Open source is a great example.

grillvogel 8y ago

it amazes me that people continue to be surprised by this.

deogeo 8y ago

Just another example of proprietary software betraying its users.