7 ms·

They should get Captain Marquet of "Turn the Ship Around!" to go get them ship shape. The book has some really good lessons on how shifting leadership style and

They should get Captain Marquet of "Turn the Ship Around!" to go get them ship shape. The book has some really good lessons on how shifting leadership style and culture can produce dramatically better results.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
doodliego 8y ago
After reading the article, no, the Navy probably does not need more overpaid business consultants with powerpoints full of easy answers. It needs to do something about inexperienced, undertrained, overworked crews in its ships. The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping while their ship is crossing a busy sealane full of behemoth freighters driving on autopilot in the dark.
- cjcenizal 8y ago
  The author of the book commanded a US Navy nuclear sub. At the time he assumed command, it was one of the worst performing subs in the fleet. The book is about the organizational and management lessons he learned as he transformed it into a top performing sub.
  - jplayer01 8y ago
    Yeah, well, commanding a US Navy nuclear sub pales in comparison with his years of experience commenting on and criticizing posts on Hacker News.
- PhantomGremlin 8y ago
  The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping while their ship is crossing a busy sealane Why aren't these people "the best of the best", to quote the trite line from Top Gun? According to Wikipedia, the US Navy has 282 deployable combat vessels. It employs a total of 325,673 active duty personnel plus 270,265 civilian employees. So out of those 600,000 people, they can't find a few thousand who are willing, able, and capable of commanding a destroyer? The US Naval Academy alone graduates 1000 people a year. Where do they all go? What do they all do? Really? I'm serious. My understanding is that the absolutely most prestigious military assignments are in "command" positions. Those assignments are the key to climbing the promotion ladder. This whole thing makes no sense to me.
  - rectang 8y ago
    Even the best of the best need to sleep.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      Which is why the post you replied to is suggesting "a few thousand" competent people in these slots for 282 ships. The question isn't why one person is asleep, it's why there's nobody filling the role.
      - watwut 8y ago
        There is exactly one CO and one XO for ship.
        jessaustin 8y ago
        If most of their subordinates are on a 12-on/12-off schedule, two people who don't do physical work can be on the bridge whenever necessary.
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        That's why I said "the role" instead of specifically that job title. Either they're slacking or there aren't enough, and you can fix either problem with 10 quality candidates per ship.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        watwut 8y ago
        The role here is supposed to be that the big boss watches so that everyone behaves. Plus so that big boss takes blame. It is not like that person would be required for something active.
  - sebcat 8y ago
    Maybe the environment does not allow for good people, and/or for people to be good?
- rectang 8y ago
  > The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping The Navy deliberately understaffs their vessels to meet unrealistic budgets. Overwork, fatigue, mistakes, and catastrophe are the inevitable consequence. The only thing more predictable is the scapegoating of ship personnel and the untouchability of those who create the conditions which guarantee eventual disaster.
  - kevinskii 8y ago
    My experience in the navy was the opposite: Ships were typically crewed with about 1.5X the number of sailors that were actually needed. I always suspected this was partly because lots of sailors means a big navy base, and a big navy base means a booming local economy in that congressional district.
    - 0xffff2 8y ago
      You're literally the only person I've ever seen make this claim. Why do we get so many stories of sleep deprived sailors if ships are over-crewed?
      - kevinskii 8y ago
        An over-crewed ship can still have an overworked crew. It’s just that much of the work isn’t really necessary.
      - stoolpigeon 8y ago
        In my time on a ship we were always undermanned. All the development I've seen in new systems to replace those I worked on (arresting gear and catapults) focus heavily on reducing required manning. We never did busy work or work that was unnecessary when we were under way and flying aircraft. In port - yeah sometimes. Most current sailors I talk to are overworked, training gets gundecked, following safety procedures and impede advancement - what's reworded is a "can do" approach that takes large risks. I don't know anyone currently serving, in any command, who says they have too many people.
- dctoedt 8y ago
  > The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping while their ship is crossing a busy sealane full of behemoth freighters driving on autopilot in the dark. That was certainly how it worked 40 years ago aboard the USS Enterprise (the aircraft carrier, not the starship). Day or night, the CO would always come to the bridge whenever another ship got to within about two- to four miles and was predicted to come within one mile. And in traffic, e.g., transiting the Strait of Malacca, the skipper would be on the bridge pretty much continuously. (Not the XO; his full-time job was basically running the ship's internal operations.)
  - ethbro 8y ago
    It makes you wonder if this is a Nasa / Challenger situation, wherein the captain decided not to come to the bridge during one incident, nothing happened, and so that rapidly became SOP on this ship. Or, as the broader lesson goes, taking a risk without it blowing up doesn't necessarily mean the risks are less. It might just mean you were lucky.
  - hansthehorse 8y ago
    Floated alongside the Enterprise in the 70's on a nuclear cruiser. In engineering we didn't change watch getting underway on entering port until past the sea marker or tied up.
    - dctoedt 8y ago
      Yeah, I was a nuke SWO on the Enterprise; it was the same in engineering as on the bridge. (I was there '76 to '79, so this is probably not the first time you and I have crossed paths <g>.)
  - JohnBooty 8y ago
    Would that have been feasible (in terms of the captain being a human being that needs rest) on a ship like the Fitzgerald that operates pretty much 24/7/365 in busy waters? I'm not asking rhetorically -- honest question.
    - 8y ago
- gpm 8y ago
  > The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping ... If the CO and XO are so critical that the ship needs one of them during normal operations I think there is a bigger problem. What happens in a conflict that lasts more than 24 hours? They alternate schedules and just don't talk to eachother much? What happens if one of them is incapacitated? The ship is ineffective for half of every day?
myrandomcomment 8y ago
Great book, great lessons on leadership. I gave a copy to my CEO and ask my team read it. Simple summary, enable the people below to make the call and enable and emporwer them to want to own it.
Animats 8y ago
"It's Your Ship"[1] is more directly applicable. That's by a captain who turned around a troubled US Navy surface warship. I'm amazed that serving naval officers flunked a quiz on the Rules of the Road, and even more amazed that the XO of the ship refused to take such a quiz. That's so basic. It's the driver's handbook for ships. See rules 11-19, which are about How Not To Run Into Other Ships. These are simple right of way rules. There's a one-page summary in "Power Boating for Dummies."[3] That anyone on the bridge of a US Navy vessel would not know these is terrifying. That the Navy brass tried to cover that up is worse. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Ship-Management-Techniques-ebook/dp/B001HPW9R4 https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Ship-Management-Techniques-e... [2] https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf [3] https://www.dummies.com/sports/following-right-of-way-boating-rules/ https://www.dummies.com/sports/following-right-of-way-boatin...
- mattmanser 8y ago
  To be fair on the captain, he was facing a court-martial, why would you willingly give them more rope?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

doodliego 8y ago

After reading the article, no, the Navy probably does not need more overpaid business consultants with powerpoints full of easy answers. It needs to do something about inexperienced, undertrained, overworked crews in its ships. The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping while their ship is crossing a busy sealane full of behemoth freighters driving on autopilot in the dark.

cjcenizal 8y ago
The author of the book commanded a US Navy nuclear sub. At the time he assumed command, it was one of the worst performing subs in the fleet. The book is about the organizational and management lessons he learned as he transformed it into a top performing sub.
- jplayer01 8y ago
  Yeah, well, commanding a US Navy nuclear sub pales in comparison with his years of experience commenting on and criticizing posts on Hacker News.
PhantomGremlin 8y ago
The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping while their ship is crossing a busy sealane Why aren't these people "the best of the best", to quote the trite line from Top Gun? According to Wikipedia, the US Navy has 282 deployable combat vessels. It employs a total of 325,673 active duty personnel plus 270,265 civilian employees. So out of those 600,000 people, they can't find a few thousand who are willing, able, and capable of commanding a destroyer? The US Naval Academy alone graduates 1000 people a year. Where do they all go? What do they all do? Really? I'm serious. My understanding is that the absolutely most prestigious military assignments are in "command" positions. Those assignments are the key to climbing the promotion ladder. This whole thing makes no sense to me.
- rectang 8y ago
  Even the best of the best need to sleep.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Which is why the post you replied to is suggesting "a few thousand" competent people in these slots for 282 ships. The question isn't why one person is asleep, it's why there's nobody filling the role.
    - watwut 8y ago
      There is exactly one CO and one XO for ship.
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        If most of their subordinates are on a 12-on/12-off schedule, two people who don't do physical work can be on the bridge whenever necessary.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        That's why I said "the role" instead of specifically that job title. Either they're slacking or there aren't enough, and you can fix either problem with 10 quality candidates per ship.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        watwut 8y ago
        The role here is supposed to be that the big boss watches so that everyone behaves. Plus so that big boss takes blame. It is not like that person would be required for something active.
- sebcat 8y ago
  Maybe the environment does not allow for good people, and/or for people to be good?
rectang 8y ago
> The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping The Navy deliberately understaffs their vessels to meet unrealistic budgets. Overwork, fatigue, mistakes, and catastrophe are the inevitable consequence. The only thing more predictable is the scapegoating of ship personnel and the untouchability of those who create the conditions which guarantee eventual disaster.
- kevinskii 8y ago
  My experience in the navy was the opposite: Ships were typically crewed with about 1.5X the number of sailors that were actually needed. I always suspected this was partly because lots of sailors means a big navy base, and a big navy base means a booming local economy in that congressional district.
  - 0xffff2 8y ago
    You're literally the only person I've ever seen make this claim. Why do we get so many stories of sleep deprived sailors if ships are over-crewed?
    - kevinskii 8y ago
      An over-crewed ship can still have an overworked crew. It’s just that much of the work isn’t really necessary.
    - stoolpigeon 8y ago
      In my time on a ship we were always undermanned. All the development I've seen in new systems to replace those I worked on (arresting gear and catapults) focus heavily on reducing required manning. We never did busy work or work that was unnecessary when we were under way and flying aircraft. In port - yeah sometimes. Most current sailors I talk to are overworked, training gets gundecked, following safety procedures and impede advancement - what's reworded is a "can do" approach that takes large risks. I don't know anyone currently serving, in any command, who says they have too many people.
dctoedt 8y ago
> The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping while their ship is crossing a busy sealane full of behemoth freighters driving on autopilot in the dark. That was certainly how it worked 40 years ago aboard the USS Enterprise (the aircraft carrier, not the starship). Day or night, the CO would always come to the bridge whenever another ship got to within about two- to four miles and was predicted to come within one mile. And in traffic, e.g., transiting the Strait of Malacca, the skipper would be on the bridge pretty much continuously. (Not the XO; his full-time job was basically running the ship's internal operations.)
- ethbro 8y ago
  It makes you wonder if this is a Nasa / Challenger situation, wherein the captain decided not to come to the bridge during one incident, nothing happened, and so that rapidly became SOP on this ship. Or, as the broader lesson goes, taking a risk without it blowing up doesn't necessarily mean the risks are less. It might just mean you were lucky.
- hansthehorse 8y ago
  Floated alongside the Enterprise in the 70's on a nuclear cruiser. In engineering we didn't change watch getting underway on entering port until past the sea marker or tied up.
  - dctoedt 8y ago
    Yeah, I was a nuke SWO on the Enterprise; it was the same in engineering as on the bridge. (I was there '76 to '79, so this is probably not the first time you and I have crossed paths <g>.)
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  Would that have been feasible (in terms of the captain being a human being that needs rest) on a ship like the Fitzgerald that operates pretty much 24/7/365 in busy waters? I'm not asking rhetorically -- honest question.
  - 8y ago
gpm 8y ago
> The CO and XO shouldn't be sleeping ... If the CO and XO are so critical that the ship needs one of them during normal operations I think there is a bigger problem. What happens in a conflict that lasts more than 24 hours? They alternate schedules and just don't talk to eachother much? What happens if one of them is incapacitated? The ship is ineffective for half of every day?

myrandomcomment 8y ago

Great book, great lessons on leadership. I gave a copy to my CEO and ask my team read it. Simple summary, enable the people below to make the call and enable and emporwer them to want to own it.

Animats 8y ago

"It's Your Ship"[1] is more directly applicable. That's by a captain who turned around a troubled US Navy surface warship. I'm amazed that serving naval officers flunked a quiz on the Rules of the Road, and even more amazed that the XO of the ship refused to take such a quiz. That's so basic. It's the driver's handbook for ships. See rules 11-19, which are about How Not To Run Into Other Ships. These are simple right of way rules. There's a one-page summary in "Power Boating for Dummies."[3] That anyone on the bridge of a US Navy vessel would not know these is terrifying. That the Navy brass tried to cover that up is worse. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Ship-Management-Techniques-ebook/dp/B001HPW9R4 https://www.amazon.com/Its-Your-Ship-Management-Techniques-e... [2] https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf [3] https://www.dummies.com/sports/following-right-of-way-boating-rules/ https://www.dummies.com/sports/following-right-of-way-boatin...

mattmanser 8y ago
To be fair on the captain, he was facing a court-martial, why would you willingly give them more rope?