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If every other business has taught them that this is the only way to deal with things and that actually going through the "official" cancellation procedure is n

If every other business has taught them that this is the only way to deal with things and that actually going through the "official" cancellation procedure is next to impossible (and an opportunity cost besides), I don't see how you can ask them to stop doing it. It's apparently a strategy that works, and just because it's inconvenient for you doesn't make it their obligation to stop.

scrollaway 8y ago
There's a just middle ground. If a service provides excellent unsubscribe flow and refund options, is it a good idea to reward them by accusing them of fraud? Do it for the shitty services but at least do some basic homework first.
- chii 8y ago
  Agreed : as a customer, you'd have to at least tried to call or cancel before issuing a charge back.
  - lanterk 8y ago
    The website should have a very accessible cancel option. Especially considering calling tends to entail reps trying to push you to keep the account, and not everyone is comfortable having to give a reason for cancellation.
- pfranz 8y ago
  The problem is they've been trained not to bother. For years I had small subscriptions to various digital things; public radio, podcasts, etc. After being burned when trying to change my credit card on a prominent broadcaster and finding there was no obvious way to cancel, I switched to PayPal or nothing for ongoing payments. It's just not worth bothering managing each site's various levels of hostility for dealing with it. After PayPal had some gaffes, I stopped altogether. In the years since I've moved a few to Patreon, but fewer than previously.
Silhouette 8y ago
If every other business has taught them that this is the only way to deal with things and that actually going through the "official" cancellation procedure is next to impossible It is highly unlikely that every other business has taught them that. Plenty of businesses provide reasonable means to cancel their service for anyone who wants to. Apparently several of us commenting in this very HN discussion run businesses on that basis, and so do lots of other people. It's apparently a strategy that works, and just because it's inconvenient for you doesn't make it their obligation to stop. Well, it's criminal fraud, so it is their obligation to stop.
- jsight 8y ago
  In my experience, easy to cancel services are a relatively new invention. Netflix, Amazon, and lots of other online services are amazingly great about this. Lots of traditional businesses have been horrible.
  - saberworks 8y ago
    I'm not convinced about Amazon. It's very difficult to find out what things I'm even subscribed to. In most cases they refuse to send emails/invoices before/after any recurring charge (amazon music, any of the addon streaming channels, the cloud storage plans, etc.), and the charges on my credit card are indistinguishable from "normal" amazon charges. Netflix does make it easy. Last time I canceled they didn't even ask why.
makewavesnotwar 8y ago
> just because it's inconvenient for you doesn't make it their obligation to stop Yeah, the thing is, having to cancel services tends to be inconvenient by nature. Usually when someone signs up for something it's because a) they're trying it out to see if it makes sense for them or b) they intend to be a paying customer. It seems like MasterCard is addressing "a" here which is massively commendable. Companies don't need to auto-charge after a trial period ends, and it seems dishonest to do so. Services like Pandora will just take some functionality and inject advertisements after the trial payment ends or you miss your monthly payment. Regarding "b", churn is a massive problem for businesses and if my company is doing something to alienate my customers, I would be trying to figure out how to reconcile the issue and retain them instead of trying to force payment on a single month of service and potentially drive them to file complaints against my business. It sounds like Twiddla might be the exception to the rule and is commendable for that - I've never heard of a company offering to refund months of service fees, but most businesses aren't like that. And to a consumer, that unexpected $5 charge might include $35 of overdraft/NSF fees from their bank that they have to reconcile - to people on a budget, that might be a lot. And some companies will try to recharge the account again and again. I know from experience that DigitalOcean reattempts charges every 2 days for a missed payment without any reference to that in the TOS, even if you have emailed them agreeing to pay the full balance before their account suspension deadline and request that they stop the arbitrary recharge attempts, which can end up costing hundreds for a missed $10 payment. And these sorts of practices don't generate any extra revenue for the service provider, but they may generate needless churn. It ends up turning into a massive headache for something that was totally avoidable - and it usually ends up hurting the people with the least money the most. The current government shutdown is a perfect example of why we should be careful about our billing practices.

scrollaway 8y ago

There's a just middle ground. If a service provides excellent unsubscribe flow and refund options, is it a good idea to reward them by accusing them of fraud? Do it for the shitty services but at least do some basic homework first.

chii 8y ago
Agreed : as a customer, you'd have to at least tried to call or cancel before issuing a charge back.
- lanterk 8y ago
  The website should have a very accessible cancel option. Especially considering calling tends to entail reps trying to push you to keep the account, and not everyone is comfortable having to give a reason for cancellation.
pfranz 8y ago
The problem is they've been trained not to bother. For years I had small subscriptions to various digital things; public radio, podcasts, etc. After being burned when trying to change my credit card on a prominent broadcaster and finding there was no obvious way to cancel, I switched to PayPal or nothing for ongoing payments. It's just not worth bothering managing each site's various levels of hostility for dealing with it. After PayPal had some gaffes, I stopped altogether. In the years since I've moved a few to Patreon, but fewer than previously.

Silhouette 8y ago

If every other business has taught them that this is the only way to deal with things and that actually going through the "official" cancellation procedure is next to impossible It is highly unlikely that every other business has taught them that. Plenty of businesses provide reasonable means to cancel their service for anyone who wants to. Apparently several of us commenting in this very HN discussion run businesses on that basis, and so do lots of other people. It's apparently a strategy that works, and just because it's inconvenient for you doesn't make it their obligation to stop. Well, it's criminal fraud, so it is their obligation to stop.

jsight 8y ago
In my experience, easy to cancel services are a relatively new invention. Netflix, Amazon, and lots of other online services are amazingly great about this. Lots of traditional businesses have been horrible.
- saberworks 8y ago
  I'm not convinced about Amazon. It's very difficult to find out what things I'm even subscribed to. In most cases they refuse to send emails/invoices before/after any recurring charge (amazon music, any of the addon streaming channels, the cloud storage plans, etc.), and the charges on my credit card are indistinguishable from "normal" amazon charges. Netflix does make it easy. Last time I canceled they didn't even ask why.

makewavesnotwar 8y ago

> just because it's inconvenient for you doesn't make it their obligation to stop Yeah, the thing is, having to cancel services tends to be inconvenient by nature. Usually when someone signs up for something it's because a) they're trying it out to see if it makes sense for them or b) they intend to be a paying customer. It seems like MasterCard is addressing "a" here which is massively commendable. Companies don't need to auto-charge after a trial period ends, and it seems dishonest to do so. Services like Pandora will just take some functionality and inject advertisements after the trial payment ends or you miss your monthly payment. Regarding "b", churn is a massive problem for businesses and if my company is doing something to alienate my customers, I would be trying to figure out how to reconcile the issue and retain them instead of trying to force payment on a single month of service and potentially drive them to file complaints against my business. It sounds like Twiddla might be the exception to the rule and is commendable for that - I've never heard of a company offering to refund months of service fees, but most businesses aren't like that. And to a consumer, that unexpected $5 charge might include $35 of overdraft/NSF fees from their bank that they have to reconcile - to people on a budget, that might be a lot. And some companies will try to recharge the account again and again. I know from experience that DigitalOcean reattempts charges every 2 days for a missed payment without any reference to that in the TOS, even if you have emailed them agreeing to pay the full balance before their account suspension deadline and request that they stop the arbitrary recharge attempts, which can end up costing hundreds for a missed $10 payment. And these sorts of practices don't generate any extra revenue for the service provider, but they may generate needless churn. It ends up turning into a massive headache for something that was totally avoidable - and it usually ends up hurting the people with the least money the most. The current government shutdown is a perfect example of why we should be careful about our billing practices.