23 ms·

Illinois Bet on Video Gambling and Lost

142 points by danso 8y ago

elhudy 8y ago
In a kind of dark way, this is great news. It will be useful for other states, as well as the city of Chicago, to have an example use case for NOT legalizing video lottery.
- vibrato 8y ago
  Maybe we can prohibit drinking and drugs eventually, too!
  - elhudy 8y ago
    Sensing this is sarcasm relating to the restriction of freedom of choice, and would like to address it in a couple ways that might provide a different perspective. The point isn't that gambling shouldn't be legal anywhere; it's that the current state of the government is unable to properly handle the social and financial oversight and fallout in regards to taking such immense measures. Compared to other state's tax rates, there is no reason why Illinois should be on the low (30%) end. >the Video Gaming Act allocates just 5 percent of the revenue from the machines to local governments, even though they shoulder the bulk of the social costs related to gambling Think about that - it's crazy. Five. Percent. Sometimes it is worth restricting the freedoms of individuals if they have a large net detrimental affect on society. At five percent they most certainly do. The majority of said society should decide whether restrictions are to be redacted, not a handful of politicians who live in the pockets of lobbyists.
bigtech 8y ago
tldr: legalizing video gambling has brought in additional revenue, but not as much as expected. Illinois borrowed money in advance based on the expected rates.
- lupire 8y ago
  That's good news. The public isn't being plundered by gambling as bad as government indented.
  - moate 8y ago
    It's also bad news because the government is going to see long term problems borrowing money, costing the tax payers more to pay back interest on loans for worthwhile projects. I'm glad fewer people are falling for this since it tends to be lower income individuals who would be better served holding onto their money, but this feels like a net Bad to me.
    - hermitdev 8y ago
      Been a while since I've looked, but Illinois's credit rating was headed toward junk bond status - like they were literally on step above. I haven't seen anything in the 5 years since that would have changed that direction.
      - topspin 8y ago
        Nothing has changed. The state's debt problems are being mitigated at the moment by prevailing economic growth, particularly pension funds that have enjoyed rising equities. The state is still seeing a large net outflow of property owners and income earners. When the US economy eventually turns downward, if only as an inevitable iteration of the business cycle, the badly worn gears of IL finance will strip entirely clean. The latest thinking about IL finance emerged[1] from the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago in April last year; add another 1% to the highest average property tax rates in the nation. It won't raise enough money to actually cover pension liabilities inside a forty year horizon, but one explicit benefit is that it will devalue properties so that "current homeowners would not be able to avoid the new tax by selling their homes." Even better, "people thinking of moving to Illinois" would benefit from lower prices, mitigating the unattractive tax rates, so goes the theory. No thoughts were offered about the effects of thousands of dollars per year of new property taxes on fixed incomes, working poor or young home owners put under water by property devaluation. No analysis was performed to predict how rapidly the IL emmigration rate will accelerate with more taxes. No evidence was offered to support the concept that some pool of mysteriously tax indifferent IL admirers are standing by to move in once housing prices decline. [1] https://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/?p=3096 https://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/?p=3096
jostmey 8y ago
Quote "At every key point, state officials made decisions that undercut taxpayers and helped the companies that market video gambling" And that is one reason why I left Chicago. Both city and state are corrupt. I remember receiving an automated ticket for running a stoplight on a date when I wasn't even in Chicago.
- bbarn 8y ago
  I can beat that one :) My car was stolen in 2001. I lived on the north side, off of the lake (Uptown - not the best, but not the worst part of the city). I reported it stolen. In 2002 I got a parking ticket by mail from the far west side of the city, where I've never been to this day. This was in the paper ticket era.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    In Houston I had a car stolen from a dealership after I traded it in. The thieves took it on a joyride, blowing through pretty much every toll plaza in the region. When I got a bill in the mail from the Toll Road Authority, all it took was a five minute phone call to clear it up. No paperwork or anything needed. The toll people said they'd confirm with the dealership and take care of everything. I don't miss Houston. But I miss the people of Houston.
  - kasey_junk 8y ago
    I got a new license plate for a car I had just bought. 2 weeks later I got ~30 tickets in the mail going back 5 years. Apparently they had been misentered and just sat in some queue waiting for that plate number to go live.
- droopyEyelids 8y ago
  You're not wrong, but your point is incoherent. Chicago is the one part of the state that didn't legalize video gambling.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  Which non-corrupt city and state did you move to?
chicagobob 8y ago
While there are clearly communities where this is a problem, I've lived in Chicago, now I live in the suburbs and still work downtown, and honestly outside of OTB and the Casinos, have never actually seen a video gambling machine in Illinois. So, this is not a state wide blight, but more of an isolated problem in various places.
- tofof 8y ago
  Perhaps that's related to the fact (from the article) that video gambling remains illegal in Chicago?
- yborg 8y ago
  As noted in the article, you most likely live in an affluent suburb. They don't have these things in Lake Forest or Barrington. On my way to work, on a short strip of road that runs through Hoffman Estates there are two Shelby's within a 1000 ft of each other. They are almost always empty apart from one or two patrons, yet they have been there for a couple of years now - I assume the few problem gamblers in the immediate area are literally supporting these places. Even if they were generating significant revenue for their municipalities, the whole enterprise is immoral.
- larzang 8y ago
  The main east-west street corridors through the outer west burbs (Lake St, North Ave, Roosevelt Rd, etc) are choked with them. Addison for example has one every 5 feet.
lojaff-PPIL 8y ago
Hi all — I'm a reporter involved with this video gambling story at ProPublica Illinois. The story mentions video gambling addiction may be on the rise. We're looking to learn more about that directly from people affected by it. If you or someone you know compulsively plays the video slot or poker machines anywhere in the state, please consider answering a few confidential questions here: https://www.propublica.org/getinvolved/help-us-investigate-illinois-video-gambling-addiction https://www.propublica.org/getinvolved/help-us-investigate-i... By sharing your story, you'll be helping us understand this important and overlooked cost of video gambling expansion. Thank you! -Logan Jaffe logan.jaffe@propublica.org
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  Logan I don't have names for you but this story is spot on, I hope the Trib and local news stations pick it up. Video gambling is totally amok in many parts of Chicago and its environs. For people who haven't seen it in person: even regular Mom & Pop restaurants have video slots. Donut shops. Italian sandwiches. Bars. Imagine if Subway devoted a quarter of its restaurants to video slots. It's crazy. And watching the people who play these games it's obvious it's not rich people, it's most often (IMO) fixed-income retirees. People who can least afford it. I'm for legalized gambling but what's going on in Illinois right now is totally bonkers. Legalizing video slots and putting them everywhere is the second dumbest idea in Illinois since Mayor Daley sold off some of the highways.
  - tomcam 8y ago
    > I'm for legalized gambling How do you prevent people who can't afford it from gambling when it's legal?
    - sgjohnson 8y ago
      I’m for legalised gambling too. You simply don’t. Not your problem. If an adult decides to gamble, it’s his decision and none of your business.
jopsen 8y ago
The shear absurdity of trying to fund anything beyond pet projects using gambling taxes should be clear to anyone. This is pretty much a privatized tax collection for deliberately preying on the weak. I mean do the reverse math, if gambling revenue had met expectation, how much money would the poor have had to burn on gambling?
tofof 8y ago
It really is a blight. Everywhere you go (other than Chicago) there are sleazy-looking banners offering video gambling. Even unexpected places. Literally every strip mall I'm aware of has at least one, regardless of the income tier the strip mall targets. Even the mom & pop diner just off the highway now has its windows plastered with adverts for video slots and video poker. Searching for video gambling will only turn up the dedicated establishments (it doesn't turn up that diner, nor many dozens of bars) but you can still see how ridiculous it is from searching any downstate community. https://www.google.com/maps/search/video+gambling/@40.1167747,-88.2827851,16z https://www.google.com/maps/search/video+gambling/@40.116774... Here, the same chain has locations barely a thousand feet from one another, and they're not even the only dedicated dens in that immediate area. Bar - doesnt show up when searching 'video gambling': https://www.google.com/maps/@40.117862,-88.2040812,3a,75y,97.9h,80.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVdErxAGriHxia1Zwr4JBDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.117862,-88.2040812,3a,75y,97... Family Diner - every window is now covered with gambling advertisements, but street view is from 2015, before they converted. Still useful for understanding how persvasive the spread is and the types of businesses that are converting to stay competetive. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1329083,-88.2190425,3a,75y,68.14h,79.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLvwPz8saESAYSb_XSSJoew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1329083,-88.2190425,3a,75y,6...
- robmiller 8y ago
  Thanks, now I understand what all those "Debby's" storefronts were when I visited my hometown over the holidays.
- O5vYtytb 8y ago
  I know the owner of a relatively large family-run restaurant, and apparently the few video slot machines they have in a small back room make more profit than the food.
  - jethro_tell 8y ago
    well, food's always been a looser, it spoils and has to be well prepared. drinks on the other hand. . .. If you're not selling vices on the side, you're doing it the hard way.
pssflops 8y ago
Heck, even gas stations around my area have signs stating "VIDEO GAMING" like it will draw in patrons with nothing better to do. The convenience shop down the street from me (Chicago outskirts) routinely has people occupying seats and looking dejected, but not actually playing any of the gambling games when I'm there.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  I don't like the term "Video Gaming". I play video games. I'm a bit of a gamer. But I am in no way any sort of gambler. Conflating the two makes one look less a dangerous vice, the other more of one. Video games and gambling terminals are totally different things. (Yes, the lootbox debate, but you know of what I speak).
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - lupire 8y ago
    gaming has included gambling since gambling was invented. gam·ing /ˈɡāmiNG/ noun 1. the action or practice of playing gambling games. "gaming is evident everywhere in Las Vegas, not just on the Strip" 2. the action or practice of playing video games. "I'm fourteen years old and enjoy gaming and playing baseball"
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      I once signed up for a course on "gaming law". I thought it might have something to do with gaming or gambling. I was wrong. "Gaming Law" was all about the relationship of native tribes and the US government. I still got the CLE credits.
      - tomcam 8y ago
        Wait why is it called gaming law then?
wenc 8y ago
I'm glad this is illegal in Chicago, but I feel for the rest of Illinois.
- derekp7 8y ago
  Is there anything preventing other cities (or at the county level) in Illinois from banning it?
- exhilaration 8y ago
  The article says that all of the current mayoral candidates want to legalize it in Chicago.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    ==all the front-runners in the city’s Feb. 26 mayoral primary support some version of a casino, and some want to bring in video gambling as well.== This is explicitly about video gambling which "some" supported. All of them supported a city casino in that particular forum. It's semantics, but the difference is meaningful as a casino would be a single location that also employs significant people and these video gambling machines are self-run and in restaurants, gas stations and bars.
    - hermitdev 8y ago
      Isn't Rivers Casino (right near Ohare) in Chicago city limits? I've been there, and they definitely have all sorts of video gambling, but maybe they were granted an exemption? I've been to Rivers a few times with the intent to do some light gambling ($200 cash, no more) and ended up not wagering a single bet. Just landed my butt at the bar instead. I'd rather a reasonably priced McCallan than a minimum $50 wager for a hand of blackjack.
      - kyteland 8y ago
        Rivers Casino is across the city line in the suburb of Des Plaines. It is not within city limits.
blang 8y ago
Anyone have an examples outside of Vegas and maybe the first two Connecticut casinos where bringing in legalize gambling actually derived on the promise of raising projected revenue benefiting the wider economy?
- porpoisely 8y ago
  Gambling is zero sum, so within a closed system, it can never be beneficial. The only way it can be beneficial is if it extracts value from outside of a particular locality and distributed the losses externally. Why vegas or macau can succeed is because most of the gambling in these cities is done by people outside of vegas and macau. If gambling in vegas was confined only to the people of vegas, then vegas would collapse as a portion of their citizens' lives are ruined. Though I'm personally against all types of gambling, I believe in individual rights and a person's right to waste their money as they see fit. However, I don't think governments should be so closely tied to it and I certainly don't think governments should be depending on it for funding of any sort. They should tax the companies involved in gambling, but they should be "in bed with them" so to speak. And I don't think state governments should be involved in lotteries either. Lotteries should be purely private and the government should tax it. I don't think a moral or sane government that truly cares about and represents their citizenry could be involved in lotteries or gambling.
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    > ...a moral or sane government that truly cares about and represents their citizenry... Let me know when you find one, and I will donate a breeding pair of unicorns to its zoo.
  - simonbyrne 8y ago
    It's not just that governments are dependant on the money, it's also that the gambling can then fund vast lobbying arms to the detriment of good policy. This has certainly happened in Australia (especially NSW): two of the biggest political donors are the Australian Hotels Association (AHA) and ClubsNSW, which represent the principal beneficiaries from video gambling machines: https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/machine-men-how-the-aha-and-clubsnsw-seek-political-influence-20160930-grrxe9.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/machine-men-how-the-aha-...
cwal37 8y ago
The knock-on effects from this poorly considered legislation are ridiculous: The legalization of video gambling also triggered another shift in the state’s revenues, one that led to a drop in education funding. While the bulk of video gambling revenue goes to fund Illinois Jobs Now!, most of the state’s casino revenue flows into the Education Assistance Fund, which provides grants to public elementary and secondary schools, colleges and universities for building projects and other expenses. But when video gambling became legal, gamblers no longer had to travel to the state’s 10 casinos to place a bet. Between 2013 and 2017, state revenue from casinos in Illinois declined 15 percent, from $462 million to $393 million, as income from video gambling machines grew nearly 900 percent, from $30 million to $300 million, state records show. The cannibalization of casino revenue contributed to a 22 percent decline in the amount of money going to the Education Assistance Fund between 2013 and 2017, leaving fewer dollars for the state’s struggling schools.
- babaganoosh89 8y ago
  Seems more like a tax distribution problem than anything else. Casino revenues went down $69 million, but video gambling revenue went up $270 million. Seems like a good deal tax wise.
  - moate 8y ago
    Also, the bottom line is that these sorts of "solutions" are just a way to increase the pool of discretionary spending funds. Dedicated revenue sources almost always seem like a way for the state to pass an unpalatable vice product (legalized pot or gambling being two big ones recently) to the citizens. "Hey, you're going to have people gambling in your back yard, but it's for the kids! Please don't notice that while the gambling generates an extra X million, we also cut X million from the general fund allocation to the same expense" TL;dr- I'm fine with this stuff being legalized, but this helps demonstrate the possible backfiring with the feel good optics often tied to this sort of thing.
specialp 8y ago
I am in support of legalized gambling but the way it is done in states like Illinois and New York (my state) just preys on problem gamblers and is indeed a money grab by the state. The arguments for making gambling illegal or restricted in these states are all nullified by the state running them. They offer games with bad odds, in poor facilities. New York sued daily fantasy sites saying it is "dangerous and addictive" but then reeled that all back once they agreed to get a cut of the action.
tptacek 8y ago
Just a statistical nit: the article states that there are more non-casino video gaming machines in Illinois than in any other state in the country, including Nevada. While that's true in absolute terms (based on ProPublica's figures from this article) the opposite is true in per-capita terms. There are more machines in Illinois than in Nevada, but there are also more people in Illinois than Nevada by a factor of 4, and, consulting the table in the article, you'll see that there are not 4 times more machines in Illinois. In fact, per-capita, according to this table, Illinois ranks last, not first. (I agree with I think most of this thread that these things are a blight.)
- sailfast 8y ago
  What happens to that statistic if you subtract the areas where this is not legal (the entire city of Chicago - actually looks like all of Cook County, and I haven't seen any of these machines inside the county)? My guess would be that stat goes up quite a bit.
  - kevinmchugh 8y ago
    There's video gambling in some of the southwest suburbs. Palos Hills, Orland Park. Those are both Cook.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      Also in Berwyn, which is almost (by a couple blocks) adjacent to the city.
    - sailfast 8y ago
      Good to know! Hard to tell from their map and I didn't remember any county-wide ordinances. Thanks.
    - robohoe 8y ago
      Which are both hard to get to without public transport that one sees in Chicago proper (PACE barely counts). A lot of folks in the city don’t own a car. At the same time those same folks are probably smarter than to spend money at gambling parlors.
sizzzzlerz 8y ago
So when gambling has failed to produce enough revenue, maybe, as a fallback, they might consider raising taxes to, you know, pay for all the things they need.
- lamarpye 8y ago
  That is funny. Illinois has some of the highest taxes in country. https://www.google.com https://www.google.com
  - clint 8y ago
    state income tax is laughably low
    - selectodude 8y ago
      Illinois was never supposed to have an income tax, and didn't have one until 1970. Our property taxes are very high for that reason.
    - mkaziz 8y ago
      4.95% flat rate is pretty high.
      - notfromhere 8y ago
        the states around illinois have a higher income tax, but they also have a progressive tax system which lessens the pain for lower income households.
    - ComputerGuru 8y ago
      The state income tax is not used for education, which is individually funded by counties via property taxes, which more than make up the difference.
    - hermitdev 8y ago
      The income tax is low, but property and sales taxes are also high. Want to buy a drink in Chicago? You're going to pay around a 12% tax on that drink. In Illinois, they get you coming and going.
bluedino 8y ago
In our state we have 'Nudgemaster' machines at bars, restaurants, bowling alleys. Video gambling isn't legal here (except at a casino), and these devices skirt the laws by accepting cash, and only giving out gift cards or merchandise as prizes.
vasilipupkin 8y ago
here is a different perspective: illinois should concentrate on not worrying too much about what consenting adults do in their spare time. Until recently, even happy hours were illegal. Illinois should concentrate on fixing the state so that people are not fleeing in droves. Legal gambling is the last issue that the state should be concerned with.
- i_am_nomad 8y ago
  The problem is that "consent" isn't a binary, it's on a continuum. When people are bombarded nonstop with advertising for video gambling, eventually some of them will take the bait. And those who do will be the ones more susceptible to the inherent lure of gambling, and as such the ones most likely to be addicted to it.
  - vasilipupkin 8y ago
    sure. On the flip side, few years ago I went to a casino in Rosemont, had a good time, ate a steak, played a few games and went home. And I am not addicted to anything and don't want it closed. 20% of people who drink alcohol get addicted. Should we close every bar in Chicago?
    - freewilly1040 8y ago
      The straw man of banning gambling everywhere is not what this is about. Sure, consenting adults should be able to indulge in vices, but we should regulate them to reduce the social harm they cause.
      - vasilipupkin 8y ago
        that is a straw man itself. it is already regulated.
- currymj 8y ago
  Video slot machines are particularly odious IMO. They are carefully designed to addict people. It's sort of like, don't ban tobacco, but maybe ban the worst tricks and chemicals cigarette companies use to make the product more addictive.
eyepulp 8y ago
I'm a trustee on the board of a very small village in Illinois. There was a vote to allow the gaming before I got on the board, and only one vote since then to approve a new license for an establishment. I argued the income-vs-sleaze ratio was lousy, but was out-voted. I wish I'd had this article and its facts to back up my more emotional reasoning for not liking it. Video gambling is indeed a blight, even if it is profitable, but this article only makes it more depressing to see just how worthless (or actively punitive) it is to all but the companies that apparently wrote the original legislation.
paulie_a 8y ago
While not video gambling directly, but there are plenty of those places around. Chicago really is obsessed with scratch off tickets and gambling in general. It is pretty sad. It's amazing to see the same people on a regular basis just throwing away money like that. 20 dollars at a time.
rb808 8y ago
I can kind of understand how people get addicted to Video games, spending all their days and nights behind a screen. I dont understand how you can do the same feeding money into a random machine with flashing lights and nice sounds non stop.
- klenwell 8y ago
  You will be interested in this NY Times article from 2004: https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/magazine/chrome-shiny-lights-flashing-wheel-spinning-touch-screened-drew-carey.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/magazine/chrome-shiny-lig... I suspect a lot of the techniques mentioned in the article made their way from slot machine design into mobile games.
  - rb808 8y ago
    Wow maybe I'm out of touch.
djhworld 8y ago
I watched this a year or so ago, it might have been on YouTube but got taken down http://kachingfilm.com/ http://kachingfilm.com/ It's a documentary about video gambling machines in Australia, quite eye opening to say the least....
newnewpdro 8y ago
I left the state before the gambling and concealed carry changes took place. My last visit was approx two years ago and it was impressive how much worse everything seemed to be. Highway rest stops with "no firearms" stickers affixed to their glass doors, the highly visible kind with a red circle and diagonal stripe over a black pistol. Those stickers are all over the place now, it felt like I must be surrounded by lethal weapons, what a miserable way to live. The prolific gambling dens and video gambling machines just made everywhere feel like an urban ghetto wasteland on top of it. I'm thrilled to have escaped before it got so much worse. The corruption was already exceptionally bad. The monetary costs and stress I endured throughout my adult years spent there on police encounters, traffic fines, parking tickets, towing fees, it's completely insane. Living in CA is an absolute dream in comparison. We may have high state taxes but I'm not constantly getting antagonized by a corrupt government desperate to raise money through continuous public contact. There are also extremely affordable parts of CA, I own desert property that's fully paid for just a couple hours from LA and the Pacific coast, an hour from Big Bear. The yearly property taxes are equal to a fancy dinner, 5 acres and a cabin for the price of a car. People obsess over the housing problems of very specific internationally-desirable elite-class pockets of CA, there's plenty of CA to go around. <storytime> The first time (and only in over 10 years) I ended up in traffic court in CA was for excessive speeding, it was for 90+ in a 55 - a mandatory court appearance. The police interaction was more entertaining than stressful, and when I went to court the judge started the session by announcing that the state had requested all fines be pushed to their maximum due to some temporary political budget problems. She then announced, that in protest, since the county doesn't find it appropriate given the general economic downturn, all penalties issued that day would be at the absolute minimum. I paid less than a hundred bucks for that ticket. This situation, from start to finish, would never have happened in IL. I would have had police with guns drawn on me when pulled over, searching my vehicle after smelling nonexistent marijuana. The judge would have been a dickhead obsessed with people removing their hats in his courtroom before wiping out their savings accounts. </storytime>
- hermitdev 8y ago
  > it felt like I must be surrounded by lethal weapons, what a miserable way to live. You already were, but now it's legal for law-abiding citizens to have them.
droobles 8y ago
Not sure about Chicago, but my small hometown in Central IL is depressing to visit, glad I left Illinois.
acchow 8y ago
Isn't it clear and obvious that gambling is non-productive and negative sum?
- mbrameld 8y ago
  That describes lots of activities.
dgzl 8y ago
I lived in Capital City / a Central Illinois for a year, and I was blown away with how many establishments hosted gambling video games. Granted, most bars were divey, but even the ones that weren't (i.e. the nice bars in town) still keep a little section in the corner that looks like a degenerate's arcade. I should also mention that housing is _cheap_ in this area. I'm talking 2br1ba house with garage and front/back yard, one mile from downtown for $600. So, renting a large commercial property was likely cheap as well.
matte_black 8y ago
I wonder if VR gambling machines might provide a better gambling experience for gamblers while also preventing places from filling up with junky and bulky machines, and probably allow for more players too within the same amount of space.
dghughes 8y ago
I used to work for my uncle who had video games, pinballs and video slots. It was semi-regulated years ago but then more rigidly controlled. And yes there people who ranged from addicted to casual as were the drinkers at the bar. It's not the machine it's the thrill though. MY uncle was contacted by a man's wife who said he dumped his entire paycheque into the slots. My uncle took a slot machine to the man's house, set it for free play but the man was not interested in that. The devices people use for gambling slots, dice, cards, don't matter it's not what it is it's the result people desire. I've seen people win $100,000 get it in cash and dump it all back in and be happy. Or others who spend $1,000 to win a $50 bonus pot, a very common thing. I can even somewhat tell what models of slots are in the picture in the article shows a (left) IGT/Spielo Prodigi VU, (middle)a WMS BB2 and (right) a Bally AP-1 V32.
- technofiend 8y ago
  >It's not the machine it's the thrill though. [...] set it for free play but the man was not interested in that. In my humble layman's opinion it's the risk taking. There's no risk in playing a free machine and there's no reward since it won't pay anything.

142 points by danso 8y ago

In a kind of dark way, this is great news. It will be useful for other states, as well as the city of Chicago, to have an example use case for NOT legalizing video lottery.

vibrato 8y ago
Maybe we can prohibit drinking and drugs eventually, too!
- elhudy 8y ago
  Sensing this is sarcasm relating to the restriction of freedom of choice, and would like to address it in a couple ways that might provide a different perspective. The point isn't that gambling shouldn't be legal anywhere; it's that the current state of the government is unable to properly handle the social and financial oversight and fallout in regards to taking such immense measures. Compared to other state's tax rates, there is no reason why Illinois should be on the low (30%) end. >the Video Gaming Act allocates just 5 percent of the revenue from the machines to local governments, even though they shoulder the bulk of the social costs related to gambling Think about that - it's crazy. Five. Percent. Sometimes it is worth restricting the freedoms of individuals if they have a large net detrimental affect on society. At five percent they most certainly do. The majority of said society should decide whether restrictions are to be redacted, not a handful of politicians who live in the pockets of lobbyists.

bigtech 8y ago

tldr: legalizing video gambling has brought in additional revenue, but not as much as expected. Illinois borrowed money in advance based on the expected rates.

lupire 8y ago
That's good news. The public isn't being plundered by gambling as bad as government indented.
- moate 8y ago
  It's also bad news because the government is going to see long term problems borrowing money, costing the tax payers more to pay back interest on loans for worthwhile projects. I'm glad fewer people are falling for this since it tends to be lower income individuals who would be better served holding onto their money, but this feels like a net Bad to me.
  - hermitdev 8y ago
    Been a while since I've looked, but Illinois's credit rating was headed toward junk bond status - like they were literally on step above. I haven't seen anything in the 5 years since that would have changed that direction.
    - topspin 8y ago
      Nothing has changed. The state's debt problems are being mitigated at the moment by prevailing economic growth, particularly pension funds that have enjoyed rising equities. The state is still seeing a large net outflow of property owners and income earners. When the US economy eventually turns downward, if only as an inevitable iteration of the business cycle, the badly worn gears of IL finance will strip entirely clean. The latest thinking about IL finance emerged[1] from the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago in April last year; add another 1% to the highest average property tax rates in the nation. It won't raise enough money to actually cover pension liabilities inside a forty year horizon, but one explicit benefit is that it will devalue properties so that "current homeowners would not be able to avoid the new tax by selling their homes." Even better, "people thinking of moving to Illinois" would benefit from lower prices, mitigating the unattractive tax rates, so goes the theory. No thoughts were offered about the effects of thousands of dollars per year of new property taxes on fixed incomes, working poor or young home owners put under water by property devaluation. No analysis was performed to predict how rapidly the IL emmigration rate will accelerate with more taxes. No evidence was offered to support the concept that some pool of mysteriously tax indifferent IL admirers are standing by to move in once housing prices decline. [1] https://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/?p=3096 https://midwest.chicagofedblogs.org/?p=3096

jostmey 8y ago

Quote "At every key point, state officials made decisions that undercut taxpayers and helped the companies that market video gambling" And that is one reason why I left Chicago. Both city and state are corrupt. I remember receiving an automated ticket for running a stoplight on a date when I wasn't even in Chicago.

bbarn 8y ago
I can beat that one :) My car was stolen in 2001. I lived on the north side, off of the lake (Uptown - not the best, but not the worst part of the city). I reported it stolen. In 2002 I got a parking ticket by mail from the far west side of the city, where I've never been to this day. This was in the paper ticket era.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  In Houston I had a car stolen from a dealership after I traded it in. The thieves took it on a joyride, blowing through pretty much every toll plaza in the region. When I got a bill in the mail from the Toll Road Authority, all it took was a five minute phone call to clear it up. No paperwork or anything needed. The toll people said they'd confirm with the dealership and take care of everything. I don't miss Houston. But I miss the people of Houston.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  I got a new license plate for a car I had just bought. 2 weeks later I got ~30 tickets in the mail going back 5 years. Apparently they had been misentered and just sat in some queue waiting for that plate number to go live.
droopyEyelids 8y ago
You're not wrong, but your point is incoherent. Chicago is the one part of the state that didn't legalize video gambling.
moorhosj 8y ago
Which non-corrupt city and state did you move to?

chicagobob 8y ago

While there are clearly communities where this is a problem, I've lived in Chicago, now I live in the suburbs and still work downtown, and honestly outside of OTB and the Casinos, have never actually seen a video gambling machine in Illinois. So, this is not a state wide blight, but more of an isolated problem in various places.

tofof 8y ago
Perhaps that's related to the fact (from the article) that video gambling remains illegal in Chicago?
yborg 8y ago
As noted in the article, you most likely live in an affluent suburb. They don't have these things in Lake Forest or Barrington. On my way to work, on a short strip of road that runs through Hoffman Estates there are two Shelby's within a 1000 ft of each other. They are almost always empty apart from one or two patrons, yet they have been there for a couple of years now - I assume the few problem gamblers in the immediate area are literally supporting these places. Even if they were generating significant revenue for their municipalities, the whole enterprise is immoral.
larzang 8y ago
The main east-west street corridors through the outer west burbs (Lake St, North Ave, Roosevelt Rd, etc) are choked with them. Addison for example has one every 5 feet.

lojaff-PPIL 8y ago

Hi all — I'm a reporter involved with this video gambling story at ProPublica Illinois. The story mentions video gambling addiction may be on the rise. We're looking to learn more about that directly from people affected by it. If you or someone you know compulsively plays the video slot or poker machines anywhere in the state, please consider answering a few confidential questions here: https://www.propublica.org/getinvolved/help-us-investigate-illinois-video-gambling-addiction https://www.propublica.org/getinvolved/help-us-investigate-i... By sharing your story, you'll be helping us understand this important and overlooked cost of video gambling expansion. Thank you! -Logan Jaffe logan.jaffe@propublica.org

ordinaryperson 8y ago
Logan I don't have names for you but this story is spot on, I hope the Trib and local news stations pick it up. Video gambling is totally amok in many parts of Chicago and its environs. For people who haven't seen it in person: even regular Mom & Pop restaurants have video slots. Donut shops. Italian sandwiches. Bars. Imagine if Subway devoted a quarter of its restaurants to video slots. It's crazy. And watching the people who play these games it's obvious it's not rich people, it's most often (IMO) fixed-income retirees. People who can least afford it. I'm for legalized gambling but what's going on in Illinois right now is totally bonkers. Legalizing video slots and putting them everywhere is the second dumbest idea in Illinois since Mayor Daley sold off some of the highways.
- tomcam 8y ago
  > I'm for legalized gambling How do you prevent people who can't afford it from gambling when it's legal?
  - sgjohnson 8y ago
    I’m for legalised gambling too. You simply don’t. Not your problem. If an adult decides to gamble, it’s his decision and none of your business.

jopsen 8y ago

The shear absurdity of trying to fund anything beyond pet projects using gambling taxes should be clear to anyone. This is pretty much a privatized tax collection for deliberately preying on the weak. I mean do the reverse math, if gambling revenue had met expectation, how much money would the poor have had to burn on gambling?

tofof 8y ago

It really is a blight. Everywhere you go (other than Chicago) there are sleazy-looking banners offering video gambling. Even unexpected places. Literally every strip mall I'm aware of has at least one, regardless of the income tier the strip mall targets. Even the mom & pop diner just off the highway now has its windows plastered with adverts for video slots and video poker. Searching for video gambling will only turn up the dedicated establishments (it doesn't turn up that diner, nor many dozens of bars) but you can still see how ridiculous it is from searching any downstate community. https://www.google.com/maps/search/video+gambling/@40.1167747,-88.2827851,16z https://www.google.com/maps/search/video+gambling/@40.116774... Here, the same chain has locations barely a thousand feet from one another, and they're not even the only dedicated dens in that immediate area. Bar - doesnt show up when searching 'video gambling': https://www.google.com/maps/@40.117862,-88.2040812,3a,75y,97.9h,80.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVdErxAGriHxia1Zwr4JBDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.117862,-88.2040812,3a,75y,97... Family Diner - every window is now covered with gambling advertisements, but street view is from 2015, before they converted. Still useful for understanding how persvasive the spread is and the types of businesses that are converting to stay competetive. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1329083,-88.2190425,3a,75y,68.14h,79.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLvwPz8saESAYSb_XSSJoew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1329083,-88.2190425,3a,75y,6...

robmiller 8y ago
Thanks, now I understand what all those "Debby's" storefronts were when I visited my hometown over the holidays.
O5vYtytb 8y ago
I know the owner of a relatively large family-run restaurant, and apparently the few video slot machines they have in a small back room make more profit than the food.
- jethro_tell 8y ago
  well, food's always been a looser, it spoils and has to be well prepared. drinks on the other hand. . .. If you're not selling vices on the side, you're doing it the hard way.

pssflops 8y ago

Heck, even gas stations around my area have signs stating "VIDEO GAMING" like it will draw in patrons with nothing better to do. The convenience shop down the street from me (Chicago outskirts) routinely has people occupying seats and looking dejected, but not actually playing any of the gambling games when I'm there.

sandworm101 8y ago
I don't like the term "Video Gaming". I play video games. I'm a bit of a gamer. But I am in no way any sort of gambler. Conflating the two makes one look less a dangerous vice, the other more of one. Video games and gambling terminals are totally different things. (Yes, the lootbox debate, but you know of what I speak).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- lupire 8y ago
  gaming has included gambling since gambling was invented. gam·ing /ˈɡāmiNG/ noun 1. the action or practice of playing gambling games. "gaming is evident everywhere in Las Vegas, not just on the Strip" 2. the action or practice of playing video games. "I'm fourteen years old and enjoy gaming and playing baseball"
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    I once signed up for a course on "gaming law". I thought it might have something to do with gaming or gambling. I was wrong. "Gaming Law" was all about the relationship of native tribes and the US government. I still got the CLE credits.
    - tomcam 8y ago
      Wait why is it called gaming law then?

wenc 8y ago

I'm glad this is illegal in Chicago, but I feel for the rest of Illinois.

derekp7 8y ago
Is there anything preventing other cities (or at the county level) in Illinois from banning it?
exhilaration 8y ago
The article says that all of the current mayoral candidates want to legalize it in Chicago.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  ==all the front-runners in the city’s Feb. 26 mayoral primary support some version of a casino, and some want to bring in video gambling as well.== This is explicitly about video gambling which "some" supported. All of them supported a city casino in that particular forum. It's semantics, but the difference is meaningful as a casino would be a single location that also employs significant people and these video gambling machines are self-run and in restaurants, gas stations and bars.
  - hermitdev 8y ago
    Isn't Rivers Casino (right near Ohare) in Chicago city limits? I've been there, and they definitely have all sorts of video gambling, but maybe they were granted an exemption? I've been to Rivers a few times with the intent to do some light gambling ($200 cash, no more) and ended up not wagering a single bet. Just landed my butt at the bar instead. I'd rather a reasonably priced McCallan than a minimum $50 wager for a hand of blackjack.
    - kyteland 8y ago
      Rivers Casino is across the city line in the suburb of Des Plaines. It is not within city limits.

blang 8y ago

Anyone have an examples outside of Vegas and maybe the first two Connecticut casinos where bringing in legalize gambling actually derived on the promise of raising projected revenue benefiting the wider economy?

porpoisely 8y ago
Gambling is zero sum, so within a closed system, it can never be beneficial. The only way it can be beneficial is if it extracts value from outside of a particular locality and distributed the losses externally. Why vegas or macau can succeed is because most of the gambling in these cities is done by people outside of vegas and macau. If gambling in vegas was confined only to the people of vegas, then vegas would collapse as a portion of their citizens' lives are ruined. Though I'm personally against all types of gambling, I believe in individual rights and a person's right to waste their money as they see fit. However, I don't think governments should be so closely tied to it and I certainly don't think governments should be depending on it for funding of any sort. They should tax the companies involved in gambling, but they should be "in bed with them" so to speak. And I don't think state governments should be involved in lotteries either. Lotteries should be purely private and the government should tax it. I don't think a moral or sane government that truly cares about and represents their citizenry could be involved in lotteries or gambling.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  > ...a moral or sane government that truly cares about and represents their citizenry... Let me know when you find one, and I will donate a breeding pair of unicorns to its zoo.
- simonbyrne 8y ago
  It's not just that governments are dependant on the money, it's also that the gambling can then fund vast lobbying arms to the detriment of good policy. This has certainly happened in Australia (especially NSW): two of the biggest political donors are the Australian Hotels Association (AHA) and ClubsNSW, which represent the principal beneficiaries from video gambling machines: https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/machine-men-how-the-aha-and-clubsnsw-seek-political-influence-20160930-grrxe9.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/machine-men-how-the-aha-...

cwal37 8y ago

The knock-on effects from this poorly considered legislation are ridiculous: The legalization of video gambling also triggered another shift in the state’s revenues, one that led to a drop in education funding. While the bulk of video gambling revenue goes to fund Illinois Jobs Now!, most of the state’s casino revenue flows into the Education Assistance Fund, which provides grants to public elementary and secondary schools, colleges and universities for building projects and other expenses. But when video gambling became legal, gamblers no longer had to travel to the state’s 10 casinos to place a bet. Between 2013 and 2017, state revenue from casinos in Illinois declined 15 percent, from $462 million to $393 million, as income from video gambling machines grew nearly 900 percent, from $30 million to $300 million, state records show. The cannibalization of casino revenue contributed to a 22 percent decline in the amount of money going to the Education Assistance Fund between 2013 and 2017, leaving fewer dollars for the state’s struggling schools.

babaganoosh89 8y ago
Seems more like a tax distribution problem than anything else. Casino revenues went down $69 million, but video gambling revenue went up $270 million. Seems like a good deal tax wise.
- moate 8y ago
  Also, the bottom line is that these sorts of "solutions" are just a way to increase the pool of discretionary spending funds. Dedicated revenue sources almost always seem like a way for the state to pass an unpalatable vice product (legalized pot or gambling being two big ones recently) to the citizens. "Hey, you're going to have people gambling in your back yard, but it's for the kids! Please don't notice that while the gambling generates an extra X million, we also cut X million from the general fund allocation to the same expense" TL;dr- I'm fine with this stuff being legalized, but this helps demonstrate the possible backfiring with the feel good optics often tied to this sort of thing.

specialp 8y ago

I am in support of legalized gambling but the way it is done in states like Illinois and New York (my state) just preys on problem gamblers and is indeed a money grab by the state. The arguments for making gambling illegal or restricted in these states are all nullified by the state running them. They offer games with bad odds, in poor facilities. New York sued daily fantasy sites saying it is "dangerous and addictive" but then reeled that all back once they agreed to get a cut of the action.

tptacek 8y ago

Just a statistical nit: the article states that there are more non-casino video gaming machines in Illinois than in any other state in the country, including Nevada. While that's true in absolute terms (based on ProPublica's figures from this article) the opposite is true in per-capita terms. There are more machines in Illinois than in Nevada, but there are also more people in Illinois than Nevada by a factor of 4, and, consulting the table in the article, you'll see that there are not 4 times more machines in Illinois. In fact, per-capita, according to this table, Illinois ranks last, not first. (I agree with I think most of this thread that these things are a blight.)

sailfast 8y ago
What happens to that statistic if you subtract the areas where this is not legal (the entire city of Chicago - actually looks like all of Cook County, and I haven't seen any of these machines inside the county)? My guess would be that stat goes up quite a bit.
- kevinmchugh 8y ago
  There's video gambling in some of the southwest suburbs. Palos Hills, Orland Park. Those are both Cook.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Also in Berwyn, which is almost (by a couple blocks) adjacent to the city.
  - sailfast 8y ago
    Good to know! Hard to tell from their map and I didn't remember any county-wide ordinances. Thanks.
  - robohoe 8y ago
    Which are both hard to get to without public transport that one sees in Chicago proper (PACE barely counts). A lot of folks in the city don’t own a car. At the same time those same folks are probably smarter than to spend money at gambling parlors.

sizzzzlerz 8y ago

So when gambling has failed to produce enough revenue, maybe, as a fallback, they might consider raising taxes to, you know, pay for all the things they need.

lamarpye 8y ago
That is funny. Illinois has some of the highest taxes in country. https://www.google.com https://www.google.com
- clint 8y ago
  state income tax is laughably low
  - selectodude 8y ago
    Illinois was never supposed to have an income tax, and didn't have one until 1970. Our property taxes are very high for that reason.
  - mkaziz 8y ago
    4.95% flat rate is pretty high.
    - notfromhere 8y ago
      the states around illinois have a higher income tax, but they also have a progressive tax system which lessens the pain for lower income households.
  - ComputerGuru 8y ago
    The state income tax is not used for education, which is individually funded by counties via property taxes, which more than make up the difference.
  - hermitdev 8y ago
    The income tax is low, but property and sales taxes are also high. Want to buy a drink in Chicago? You're going to pay around a 12% tax on that drink. In Illinois, they get you coming and going.

bluedino 8y ago

In our state we have 'Nudgemaster' machines at bars, restaurants, bowling alleys. Video gambling isn't legal here (except at a casino), and these devices skirt the laws by accepting cash, and only giving out gift cards or merchandise as prizes.

vasilipupkin 8y ago

here is a different perspective: illinois should concentrate on not worrying too much about what consenting adults do in their spare time. Until recently, even happy hours were illegal. Illinois should concentrate on fixing the state so that people are not fleeing in droves. Legal gambling is the last issue that the state should be concerned with.

i_am_nomad 8y ago
The problem is that "consent" isn't a binary, it's on a continuum. When people are bombarded nonstop with advertising for video gambling, eventually some of them will take the bait. And those who do will be the ones more susceptible to the inherent lure of gambling, and as such the ones most likely to be addicted to it.
- vasilipupkin 8y ago
  sure. On the flip side, few years ago I went to a casino in Rosemont, had a good time, ate a steak, played a few games and went home. And I am not addicted to anything and don't want it closed. 20% of people who drink alcohol get addicted. Should we close every bar in Chicago?
  - freewilly1040 8y ago
    The straw man of banning gambling everywhere is not what this is about. Sure, consenting adults should be able to indulge in vices, but we should regulate them to reduce the social harm they cause.
    - vasilipupkin 8y ago
      that is a straw man itself. it is already regulated.
currymj 8y ago
Video slot machines are particularly odious IMO. They are carefully designed to addict people. It's sort of like, don't ban tobacco, but maybe ban the worst tricks and chemicals cigarette companies use to make the product more addictive.

eyepulp 8y ago

I'm a trustee on the board of a very small village in Illinois. There was a vote to allow the gaming before I got on the board, and only one vote since then to approve a new license for an establishment. I argued the income-vs-sleaze ratio was lousy, but was out-voted. I wish I'd had this article and its facts to back up my more emotional reasoning for not liking it. Video gambling is indeed a blight, even if it is profitable, but this article only makes it more depressing to see just how worthless (or actively punitive) it is to all but the companies that apparently wrote the original legislation.

paulie_a 8y ago

While not video gambling directly, but there are plenty of those places around. Chicago really is obsessed with scratch off tickets and gambling in general. It is pretty sad. It's amazing to see the same people on a regular basis just throwing away money like that. 20 dollars at a time.

rb808 8y ago

I can kind of understand how people get addicted to Video games, spending all their days and nights behind a screen. I dont understand how you can do the same feeding money into a random machine with flashing lights and nice sounds non stop.

klenwell 8y ago
You will be interested in this NY Times article from 2004: https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/magazine/chrome-shiny-lights-flashing-wheel-spinning-touch-screened-drew-carey.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/magazine/chrome-shiny-lig... I suspect a lot of the techniques mentioned in the article made their way from slot machine design into mobile games.
- rb808 8y ago
  Wow maybe I'm out of touch.

djhworld 8y ago

I watched this a year or so ago, it might have been on YouTube but got taken down http://kachingfilm.com/ http://kachingfilm.com/ It's a documentary about video gambling machines in Australia, quite eye opening to say the least....

newnewpdro 8y ago

I left the state before the gambling and concealed carry changes took place. My last visit was approx two years ago and it was impressive how much worse everything seemed to be. Highway rest stops with "no firearms" stickers affixed to their glass doors, the highly visible kind with a red circle and diagonal stripe over a black pistol. Those stickers are all over the place now, it felt like I must be surrounded by lethal weapons, what a miserable way to live. The prolific gambling dens and video gambling machines just made everywhere feel like an urban ghetto wasteland on top of it. I'm thrilled to have escaped before it got so much worse. The corruption was already exceptionally bad. The monetary costs and stress I endured throughout my adult years spent there on police encounters, traffic fines, parking tickets, towing fees, it's completely insane. Living in CA is an absolute dream in comparison. We may have high state taxes but I'm not constantly getting antagonized by a corrupt government desperate to raise money through continuous public contact. There are also extremely affordable parts of CA, I own desert property that's fully paid for just a couple hours from LA and the Pacific coast, an hour from Big Bear. The yearly property taxes are equal to a fancy dinner, 5 acres and a cabin for the price of a car. People obsess over the housing problems of very specific internationally-desirable elite-class pockets of CA, there's plenty of CA to go around. <storytime> The first time (and only in over 10 years) I ended up in traffic court in CA was for excessive speeding, it was for 90+ in a 55 - a mandatory court appearance. The police interaction was more entertaining than stressful, and when I went to court the judge started the session by announcing that the state had requested all fines be pushed to their maximum due to some temporary political budget problems. She then announced, that in protest, since the county doesn't find it appropriate given the general economic downturn, all penalties issued that day would be at the absolute minimum. I paid less than a hundred bucks for that ticket. This situation, from start to finish, would never have happened in IL. I would have had police with guns drawn on me when pulled over, searching my vehicle after smelling nonexistent marijuana. The judge would have been a dickhead obsessed with people removing their hats in his courtroom before wiping out their savings accounts. </storytime>

hermitdev 8y ago
> it felt like I must be surrounded by lethal weapons, what a miserable way to live. You already were, but now it's legal for law-abiding citizens to have them.

droobles 8y ago

Not sure about Chicago, but my small hometown in Central IL is depressing to visit, glad I left Illinois.

acchow 8y ago

Isn't it clear and obvious that gambling is non-productive and negative sum?

mbrameld 8y ago
That describes lots of activities.

dgzl 8y ago

I lived in Capital City / a Central Illinois for a year, and I was blown away with how many establishments hosted gambling video games. Granted, most bars were divey, but even the ones that weren't (i.e. the nice bars in town) still keep a little section in the corner that looks like a degenerate's arcade. I should also mention that housing is _cheap_ in this area. I'm talking 2br1ba house with garage and front/back yard, one mile from downtown for $600. So, renting a large commercial property was likely cheap as well.

matte_black 8y ago

I wonder if VR gambling machines might provide a better gambling experience for gamblers while also preventing places from filling up with junky and bulky machines, and probably allow for more players too within the same amount of space.

dghughes 8y ago

I used to work for my uncle who had video games, pinballs and video slots. It was semi-regulated years ago but then more rigidly controlled. And yes there people who ranged from addicted to casual as were the drinkers at the bar. It's not the machine it's the thrill though. MY uncle was contacted by a man's wife who said he dumped his entire paycheque into the slots. My uncle took a slot machine to the man's house, set it for free play but the man was not interested in that. The devices people use for gambling slots, dice, cards, don't matter it's not what it is it's the result people desire. I've seen people win $100,000 get it in cash and dump it all back in and be happy. Or others who spend $1,000 to win a $50 bonus pot, a very common thing. I can even somewhat tell what models of slots are in the picture in the article shows a (left) IGT/Spielo Prodigi VU, (middle)a WMS BB2 and (right) a Bally AP-1 V32.

technofiend 8y ago
>It's not the machine it's the thrill though. [...] set it for free play but the man was not interested in that. In my humble layman's opinion it's the risk taking. There's no risk in playing a free machine and there's no reward since it won't pay anything.