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Serious question for US members of HN: how do you tolerate these shutdowns? I mean, apart from the loss of services, including websites, it seems like many fed

Serious question for US members of HN: how do you tolerate these shutdowns? I mean, apart from the loss of services, including websites, it seems like many federal workers aren't being paid. Will they be paid back after the shutdown impasse is resolved or is the money they didn't/couldn't earn lost to them. This seems unfair and, in the meantime, how are they supposed to go about their lives? Overall it seems potentially damaging and disruptive for any organisation or individuals with dependencies on the government. The reason I ask is I've been turning over what it might look like if a similar situation occurred in the UK, where it'a difficult to envisage a scenario that doesn't end with rioting in the streets.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> Serious question for US members of HN: how do you tolerate these shutdowns? > Overall it seems potentially damaging and disruptive for any organisation or individuals with dependencies on the government. Most people do not have dependencies on the government. You could live through a shutdown without noticing it had happened if not for the news coverage.
- aaronbrethorst 8y ago
  Not if you enjoy eating food or flying. Or are dependent on SNAP benefits. Or are a Native American. Or are trying to use constituent services with a freshman member of Congress. https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683642605/how-is-the-shutdown-affecting-america-let-us-count-the-ways https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683642605/how-is-the-shutdown...
  - ta8347 8y ago
    "Most people"
  - Spivak 8y ago
    Last I checked, grocery stores and restruants are still open and planes are still in the sky. The remainder are people who are on the invisible end of society. This isn't to say that the shutdown isn't a big deal but it should be grounded in the reality of who and what it actually affects. The typical American could, at this point, realistically not notice anything is happening if it weren't for the news.
    - aaronbrethorst 8y ago
      grocery stores and restruants are still open I'm not saying they're closed; I'm talking about food inspections. Remember the romaine scare from November? Guess what won't be flagged early during this government shutdown? While people should take seriously the recent outbreak of E. coli food poisoning that triggered the alert, the fact that it was flagged early shows that the agency once known as the CDC deserves its upgraded name as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-romaine-lettuce-scare-e-coli-cdc-1128-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-pe... ----- Also, let's talk about this: The remainder are people who are on the invisible end of society... it should be grounded in the reality of who and what it actually affects. 44 million Americans use SNAP benefits. 5 million Americans are of indigenous descent. 800,000 Americans employed by the federal government are not getting paychecks. Some ostensibly large percentage of the 3.7 million federal contractors are not getting paychecks. That's about one-sixth of the population of the United States. Maybe typical Americans should pay more attention to their neighbors and friends.
      - thaumasiotes 8y ago
        > Maybe typical Americans should pay more attention to their neighbors and friends. None of the groups you listed are uniformly distributed across society. "Six social groups each containing 0 people on food stamps, and one social group in which people are mostly on food stamps" is closer to reality than "seven social groups each of which have about 1/7 of the membership on food stamps". The whole point of living in a nice neighborhood is that none of your neighbors or friends are on food stamps.
        fzeroracer 8y ago
        >The whole point of living in a nice neighborhood is that none of your neighbors or friends are on food stamps. Can you explain further? Because it sure sounds like you're somehow equating people being on food stamps as being bad neighbors or friends. I'd like you to explain your logic here.
nostrebored 8y ago
Government employees are paid, but contract workers like janitors are not
- untog 8y ago
  They aren't getting paid. They will get paid when the shutdown is over, but they aren't getting paid right now. An important distinction. EDIT: I'm referring to the employees here, not contractors
  - joezydeco 8y ago
    But furloughed contractors are out of that pay permanently. You can't bill for hours you never worked.
    - untog 8y ago
      Yes, I added an edit to clarify I was referring to employees only in my post.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      Yet the federal employees will be paid for hours not worked...
  - lowercased 8y ago
    For direct employees - currently, from what I've recently heard - the legislation in place provides for back pay for them. For contract workers for agencies, it's unclear that any of them will receive back pay. Per the other comment here, I might suspect that there were some contractors who may still have been 'required' for some reason to work, but may not get back pay in the end. It's speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if more than a few people got caught in this situation.
    - pimlottc 8y ago
      > For direct employees - currently, from what I've recently heard - the legislation in place provides for back pay for them. Almost in place; the bill in question still needs to be signed by the President. All indications are that he will. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/s24 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/s24 In general, there is nothing that guarantees back pay after a shutdown, though it has happened in every shutdown so far.
untog 8y ago
Because it doesn't actually impact most people yet. Obviously that's cold comfort to the government workers who are currently unpaid, but I guess people are selfish. The shutdown is a cumulative thing. For instance, the FDA food inspections aren't happening. For a week, it's not likely to make a big difference. But a month? Three months? Eventually people will get sick and it'll be a huge issue. TSA agents have mostly been coming to work at airports, but Friday was payday, and they didn't get paid. More and more will call out sick. Same with housing benefits, farming loans... right now they all have a direct impact on a few individuals. But once the numbers start growing the government will be forced to act. This is now the longest shutdown the US has had, so we're in uncharted territory. It'll undoubtedly have a bigger effect than previous shutdowns. Trump has even said the shutdown could last months, but of course you'd be an idiot to take him at his word.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > Trump has even said the shutdown could last months, but of course you'd be an idiot to take him at his word. Wait, why? I was considering this as a possibility before he said anything about it. It totally seems to me like this could go on for multiple months.
  - untog 8y ago
    Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. Just that what Trump says about it is pretty worthless.
  - ohiovr 8y ago
    Better be resolved by March 1st or Fitch plans to lower the us credit rating.
  - choko 8y ago
    Trump uses A LOT of hyperbole. It can be difficult to know when to take him literally, which is part of his likeability problem. His supporters claim you should take him seriously but not literally. I have a hard time with it, since I tend to be a literal-minded person.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mehrdadn 8y ago
A lot of people just aren't affected visibly, and I guess people don't usually riot about things that don't anger them. Not sure how those that are affected are getting by. To me these shutdowns (and lack of pay) should be bringing down the US government's credit rating.
- clairity 8y ago
  since the US dollar is the world's reserve currency you probably don't want the credit rating dropping even if you're not an american. the shutdown is maddening but we seem to have come to accept it as a normal escalation tactic. what concerns me more is the move away from norms to laws restraining the executive branch. that can potentially reduce the effectiveness of future presidents and shift the careful balance of federal power in ways we may not like. but on the flip side, i'm glad the federal government has been shown (so far) to be resilient to an inept president.
  - ngcc_hk 8y ago
    The resilience is a surprise but great so far as an institution. For how long and whether there is a last x on camels back ...
linkmotif 8y ago
Because most of the government is a waste of money and exists merely to perpetuate itself. The fact that it just shuts down sometimes is a great indicator of just that. It’s an entity that is accountable to nobody because no matter how well or poorly it performs it just collects revenue anyway. You can’t #deletegovt. The sooner people move away from viewing it as a good employer, the better. There’s no smooth or elegant way to make this happen, unfortunately.
- rplst8 8y ago
  Yeah I work as a contractor in the DC metro area and it seems mostly business as usual for the large majority. Folks aren't getting paid, but they'll likely get back pay once it's resolved. Traffic on the highways and metro seemed pretty normal to me. It's 99% political posturing to see who blinks first. It's definitely not healthy though.
- maratd 8y ago
  Instead of downvoting the parent, make an actual argument instead. You'll find it difficult. If the current shutdown proves anything, it's that many functions of the federal government are un-essential to daily life. Those un-essential parts should be eliminated.
  - sparkie 8y ago
    Even the 'essential parts' would be better if the government had competition. If one provider of the essential services shut down, they'd go out of business and another would take their place. People would pay the provider offering the best service for the best price - and the prices would generally be lower because competition drives out inefficiencies.
    - metildaa 8y ago
      So we all end up paying many multiples for incomplete, expensive private services to replace the National Weather Service and the like? Eastern Oregon has gone the route at one point for fire fighting, and recently went and closed libraries, leaving it to local towns to rebuild said service. Private offerings for services that are a public good tend to either be expensive and poor quality (unreliable, limited service) for these things that were formerly community funded, leaving me with little faith that privitization would do anything besides add cost.
snek 8y ago
Yes it's horrible and childlish. Politicians use hundreds of thousands of citizens as bargaining chips instead of just figuring out how to work together. If it didn't happen so often, I would imagine there would be rioting. Unfortunately the status quo is to shut down the government whenever you don't get the exact budget you want.
- photoguy112 8y ago
  I don't see anything wrong with shutting down - less frivolous spending. Why should an idiot get funding to build a wall nobody wants? He's only harming himself.
- pbourke 8y ago
  Please don’t make the claim that “both sides” are responsible for or prolonging this shutdown. The House passed a series of bills that are essentially the same as the ones given unanimous consent in the Senate last month in order to provide for government funding. Those bills passed by the House include substantial funding for border security. All sides are in agreement about the necessity of border security. A single side and a small group of men on that side are holding the lives of 800k federal workers and the lives, health and prosperity of the public at ransom. They’re doing this in order to get a cheap political “win” for a border wall. A wall that will be ineffective and will never be built even if they’re handed the money to build it, due to the enormous ecological, logistical and legal barriers to do so.
  - jakeogh 8y ago
    No worries, it will be the Dems that "end" the shutdown when they fund the peaches.
maratd 8y ago
> Serious question for US members of HN: how do you tolerate these shutdowns? I realize this is being portrayed in the media as a total government shutdown, but that's really not the case. The US has multiple levels of government. Federal, State, County, and Municipal. State, County, and Municipal governments (which are the ones that really provide essential services), are operating normally. For the Federal government, any self-sufficient or quasi-self-sufficient operations (like the USPTO, USPS, etc.) are unaffected. Any operations that already had their budgets passed are unaffected. We're talking about a fraction of the total government here. There's more drama here than anything else. Yes, there are people whose lives are affected, but they're a small fraction of the population. I believe there were estimates of 400k? Even if we bump that up to a million to be conservative, we're talking about 0.25% of the population.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  > For the Federal government, any self-sufficient or quasi-self-sufficient operations (like the USPTO, USPS, etc.) are unaffected. Any operations that already had their budgets passed are unaffected. Wrong. The Federal Budget was done in steps. Only 25% of the government was under debate on Dec 2017, so only that 25% of the Federal Government was shutdown. In 2014 (IIRC), there WAS a total government shutdown for a few days. > We're talking about a fraction of the total government here. There's more drama here than anything else. 25% of the federal government is roughly 800,000 workers who have gotten a $0.0 paycheck yesterday, while most of them were forced to keep working. Most noticably: Boarder Patrol Agents, TSA Agents, US Air Marshals, and Air Traffic Control agents. They ALL got $0.0 paychecks. IRS is also affected: the entirety of the IRS got $0 paycheck yesterday. The fact that airports keep working are because these TSA Agents + Air Traffic controllers have decided that keeping the airports open are more important than getting a paycheck. Salute them next time you see one and thank them for their sacrifice. Airports literally can't function without air-traffic control, and TSA have a thankless job.
  - ta8347 8y ago
    TSA is useless
  - 8y ago
choko 8y ago
One reason is because local government is operating normally, and local government (not federal) functions are what impacts people's lives the most. For all the attention federal issues garner, local government has a much larger impact on day to day life in the US.
- noir_lord 8y ago
  Same in the UK, one of the reasons that it annoys the hell out of me that local government isn't taken more seriously by the electorate.
ok_coo 8y ago
My wife came home yesterday and told me that her work said if the shutdown continues in late February - March that they'll probably have to cut her position along with others at her workplace (they're federally-funded). If that happens, I will likely be forced to quit my current job as well and find a higher paying job to help compensate while she looks for new work. I'm currently paid under market rate, but I love my job, so I'd prefer to stay where I'm at instead of look for other work to make up for our loss of income. If this shutdown continues, I think people severely underestimate the negative impact it's going to have on this country. There's going to be a lot of pain and transitions that will have to happen. If he really wants this wall funded, he should go through the normal channels. It's difficult to see how this isn't anything but a temper tantrum.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  His base wants the temper tantrum and the shutdown. The fact of the matter is, Trump hasn't lost any ground in his approval rating over this yet. With that being said, Democrats don't want the wall. They were pretty much elected to stop the wall and have a huge majority in the House. I don't see how this gets resolved at all. To have the shutdown end, the House (Democrats), Senate (Republicans), and President have to agree on a singular solution. In the past, the general agreement has been "Lets keep the budget numbers the same and argue about this later". But the typical plan has failed, Trump is doubling down on the wall (+$5.7 Billion added to the budget), and his base loves it.
  - admax88q 8y ago
    > House (Democrats), Senate (Republicans), and President have to agree on a singular solution The House and Senate can override the president with a super majority. They don't technically need the president's approval. However getting a super majority in the senate to override a veto will be difficult as most Republicans see loyalty to Trump as important for re-election.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      > The House and Senate can override the president with a super majority. They don't technically need the president's approval. Senate is the place where bills die. You've got not only the Republican-controlled majority, but Democrats can filibuster anything they disagree with in the Senate. So to pass the Senate normally, you need to have Republicans agree, Democrats "Not Protest". A Supermajority Senate override of a veto is 67 votes (out of 100). Frankly, I don't see that ever happening in the current political climate.
FPGAhacker 8y ago
Say you have a government that does only two things, of equal cost. Feed hungry children, and make Statues of past leaders for city squares. Now imagine the budget of the government was cut in half by Congress. Which of these two things do you think they would stop doing? The answer is very likely to stop feeding hungry children. Tax payers will feel that pain and become irate at the budget cuts and demand the budget be reinstated. If they stopped producing statues, taxpayers would probably not notice and wonder why the budget was so high to begin with. So it goes with the American federal government. The departments shut down things that will cause the most pain, fear, anger to the public until the public demands budgetary reinstatement. Credits to Thomas Sowell for the analogy. If you want a good laugh and also see what the fed wastes money on, go look at Rand Paul’s Festivus thread on Twitter.
- panarky 8y ago
  > see what the fed wastes money on Yes, there's tremendous waste in the public sector. But I've worked for large private enterprises most of my career, and there is astronomical waste there too. I'd bet a year's salary that the waste in large private organizations is far greater than in large government organizations.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    Public waste bothers me more, as I can’t opt out of it. Private waste? I can just choose not invest in that company (or short them if they’re public).
- equalunique 8y ago
  Your comment should not have been downvoted.
wil421 8y ago
No noticeable impact to me or anyone I know what so ever. The only thing I can’t do is go to a park near the river it’s part of the National Parks system which is shutdown. Most services I need are run by my state. I can’t really think of anything federal I need beside the IRS in February. I generally feel bad for federal employees in my area. My credit union is extending interest free loans and some banks are allowing people to postpone mortgage payments. There are two sides to the coin and many banks are actually giving predetory type loans.
equalunique 8y ago
I have known several US government workers who describe these shutdowns as a "free vacation". It's also a partial shutdown where many "essential" agencies are still operating (most of Department of Homeland Security), others are funded separately (Department of Veteran's Affairs), and some have already recieved new funding (US Coast Guard). Also worth noting is many government contractors are on fully funded contracts, meaning many are operating in the same fashion as they would during the week of Christmas (i.e., keep the lights on while most Federal employees are out). Basically this is a tolerable situation for what I would characterize as half of US government workers so far, regardless of where they fall on the border wall issue, and especially considering legislation has been passed this week to give government workers back-pay (e.g. the "free vacation" sentiment). Now that a whole pay period has passed, the situation will become more tense & I expect a change to occur soon. I hope Democrats make a deal with Trump, in which case Democrats win something (like real DACA legislation), Trump wins funding authorized for more border walls (less than what Democrats authorized several years ago for similar ones), and the government opens back up. The alternative is Democrats win nothing, Trump wins athority over many more billions of dollars via the national emergency route, and the governemnt opens back up - DACA later becomes an unsolved issue when the Supreme Court (likley) strikes it down.
KeepFlying 8y ago
I hate that the government is shut down. It's stupid that people's livelihoods are a bargaining chip, especially when every administration talks about increasing jobs. But it hasn't personally affected me yet. I am not a government employee and at the moment I am not in need of any of the government services that are shut down. As for if they will get paid afterward, well legally the government cannot promise that. Legally it's possible that the new budget may even disband something like the TSA and all of the workers who have been working for free would be even more screwed. But historically every shutdown ended with giving back pay to the workers who had to work for free. They just can't guarantee it.
- jeffcore 8y ago
  > As for if they will get paid afterward, well legally the government cannot promise that. Legally it's possible that the new budget may even disband something like the TSA and all of the workers who have been working for free would be even more screwed. But historically every shutdown ended with giving back pay to the workers who had to work for free. They just can't guarantee it. Yes and no. Excepted service employees, which includes most of the TSA, are guaranteed to receive back pay for time worked during the shutdown, as agencies are required to pay for services performed. However, Congress and the President must pass and a sign a bill explicitly paying workers who were furloughed (i.e., non-essential and non-excepted employees). As the shutdown continues, excepted and essential workers may be entitled to double pay due to the Fair Labor Standards Act.

thaumasiotes 8y ago

> Serious question for US members of HN: how do you tolerate these shutdowns? > Overall it seems potentially damaging and disruptive for any organisation or individuals with dependencies on the government. Most people do not have dependencies on the government. You could live through a shutdown without noticing it had happened if not for the news coverage.

aaronbrethorst 8y ago
Not if you enjoy eating food or flying. Or are dependent on SNAP benefits. Or are a Native American. Or are trying to use constituent services with a freshman member of Congress. https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683642605/how-is-the-shutdown-affecting-america-let-us-count-the-ways https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683642605/how-is-the-shutdown...
- ta8347 8y ago
  "Most people"
- Spivak 8y ago
  Last I checked, grocery stores and restruants are still open and planes are still in the sky. The remainder are people who are on the invisible end of society. This isn't to say that the shutdown isn't a big deal but it should be grounded in the reality of who and what it actually affects. The typical American could, at this point, realistically not notice anything is happening if it weren't for the news.
  - aaronbrethorst 8y ago
    grocery stores and restruants are still open I'm not saying they're closed; I'm talking about food inspections. Remember the romaine scare from November? Guess what won't be flagged early during this government shutdown? While people should take seriously the recent outbreak of E. coli food poisoning that triggered the alert, the fact that it was flagged early shows that the agency once known as the CDC deserves its upgraded name as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-romaine-lettuce-scare-e-coli-cdc-1128-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-pe... ----- Also, let's talk about this: The remainder are people who are on the invisible end of society... it should be grounded in the reality of who and what it actually affects. 44 million Americans use SNAP benefits. 5 million Americans are of indigenous descent. 800,000 Americans employed by the federal government are not getting paychecks. Some ostensibly large percentage of the 3.7 million federal contractors are not getting paychecks. That's about one-sixth of the population of the United States. Maybe typical Americans should pay more attention to their neighbors and friends.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      > Maybe typical Americans should pay more attention to their neighbors and friends. None of the groups you listed are uniformly distributed across society. "Six social groups each containing 0 people on food stamps, and one social group in which people are mostly on food stamps" is closer to reality than "seven social groups each of which have about 1/7 of the membership on food stamps". The whole point of living in a nice neighborhood is that none of your neighbors or friends are on food stamps.
      - fzeroracer 8y ago
        >The whole point of living in a nice neighborhood is that none of your neighbors or friends are on food stamps. Can you explain further? Because it sure sounds like you're somehow equating people being on food stamps as being bad neighbors or friends. I'd like you to explain your logic here.

nostrebored 8y ago

Government employees are paid, but contract workers like janitors are not

untog 8y ago
They aren't getting paid. They will get paid when the shutdown is over, but they aren't getting paid right now. An important distinction. EDIT: I'm referring to the employees here, not contractors
- joezydeco 8y ago
  But furloughed contractors are out of that pay permanently. You can't bill for hours you never worked.
  - untog 8y ago
    Yes, I added an edit to clarify I was referring to employees only in my post.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    Yet the federal employees will be paid for hours not worked...
- lowercased 8y ago
  For direct employees - currently, from what I've recently heard - the legislation in place provides for back pay for them. For contract workers for agencies, it's unclear that any of them will receive back pay. Per the other comment here, I might suspect that there were some contractors who may still have been 'required' for some reason to work, but may not get back pay in the end. It's speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if more than a few people got caught in this situation.
  - pimlottc 8y ago
    > For direct employees - currently, from what I've recently heard - the legislation in place provides for back pay for them. Almost in place; the bill in question still needs to be signed by the President. All indications are that he will. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/s24 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/s24 In general, there is nothing that guarantees back pay after a shutdown, though it has happened in every shutdown so far.

untog 8y ago

Because it doesn't actually impact most people yet. Obviously that's cold comfort to the government workers who are currently unpaid, but I guess people are selfish. The shutdown is a cumulative thing. For instance, the FDA food inspections aren't happening. For a week, it's not likely to make a big difference. But a month? Three months? Eventually people will get sick and it'll be a huge issue. TSA agents have mostly been coming to work at airports, but Friday was payday, and they didn't get paid. More and more will call out sick. Same with housing benefits, farming loans... right now they all have a direct impact on a few individuals. But once the numbers start growing the government will be forced to act. This is now the longest shutdown the US has had, so we're in uncharted territory. It'll undoubtedly have a bigger effect than previous shutdowns. Trump has even said the shutdown could last months, but of course you'd be an idiot to take him at his word.

mehrdadn 8y ago
> Trump has even said the shutdown could last months, but of course you'd be an idiot to take him at his word. Wait, why? I was considering this as a possibility before he said anything about it. It totally seems to me like this could go on for multiple months.
- untog 8y ago
  Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. Just that what Trump says about it is pretty worthless.
- ohiovr 8y ago
  Better be resolved by March 1st or Fitch plans to lower the us credit rating.
- choko 8y ago
  Trump uses A LOT of hyperbole. It can be difficult to know when to take him literally, which is part of his likeability problem. His supporters claim you should take him seriously but not literally. I have a hard time with it, since I tend to be a literal-minded person.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mehrdadn 8y ago

A lot of people just aren't affected visibly, and I guess people don't usually riot about things that don't anger them. Not sure how those that are affected are getting by. To me these shutdowns (and lack of pay) should be bringing down the US government's credit rating.

clairity 8y ago
since the US dollar is the world's reserve currency you probably don't want the credit rating dropping even if you're not an american. the shutdown is maddening but we seem to have come to accept it as a normal escalation tactic. what concerns me more is the move away from norms to laws restraining the executive branch. that can potentially reduce the effectiveness of future presidents and shift the careful balance of federal power in ways we may not like. but on the flip side, i'm glad the federal government has been shown (so far) to be resilient to an inept president.
- ngcc_hk 8y ago
  The resilience is a surprise but great so far as an institution. For how long and whether there is a last x on camels back ...

linkmotif 8y ago

Because most of the government is a waste of money and exists merely to perpetuate itself. The fact that it just shuts down sometimes is a great indicator of just that. It’s an entity that is accountable to nobody because no matter how well or poorly it performs it just collects revenue anyway. You can’t #deletegovt. The sooner people move away from viewing it as a good employer, the better. There’s no smooth or elegant way to make this happen, unfortunately.

rplst8 8y ago
Yeah I work as a contractor in the DC metro area and it seems mostly business as usual for the large majority. Folks aren't getting paid, but they'll likely get back pay once it's resolved. Traffic on the highways and metro seemed pretty normal to me. It's 99% political posturing to see who blinks first. It's definitely not healthy though.
maratd 8y ago
Instead of downvoting the parent, make an actual argument instead. You'll find it difficult. If the current shutdown proves anything, it's that many functions of the federal government are un-essential to daily life. Those un-essential parts should be eliminated.
- sparkie 8y ago
  Even the 'essential parts' would be better if the government had competition. If one provider of the essential services shut down, they'd go out of business and another would take their place. People would pay the provider offering the best service for the best price - and the prices would generally be lower because competition drives out inefficiencies.
  - metildaa 8y ago
    So we all end up paying many multiples for incomplete, expensive private services to replace the National Weather Service and the like? Eastern Oregon has gone the route at one point for fire fighting, and recently went and closed libraries, leaving it to local towns to rebuild said service. Private offerings for services that are a public good tend to either be expensive and poor quality (unreliable, limited service) for these things that were formerly community funded, leaving me with little faith that privitization would do anything besides add cost.

snek 8y ago

Yes it's horrible and childlish. Politicians use hundreds of thousands of citizens as bargaining chips instead of just figuring out how to work together. If it didn't happen so often, I would imagine there would be rioting. Unfortunately the status quo is to shut down the government whenever you don't get the exact budget you want.

photoguy112 8y ago
I don't see anything wrong with shutting down - less frivolous spending. Why should an idiot get funding to build a wall nobody wants? He's only harming himself.
pbourke 8y ago
Please don’t make the claim that “both sides” are responsible for or prolonging this shutdown. The House passed a series of bills that are essentially the same as the ones given unanimous consent in the Senate last month in order to provide for government funding. Those bills passed by the House include substantial funding for border security. All sides are in agreement about the necessity of border security. A single side and a small group of men on that side are holding the lives of 800k federal workers and the lives, health and prosperity of the public at ransom. They’re doing this in order to get a cheap political “win” for a border wall. A wall that will be ineffective and will never be built even if they’re handed the money to build it, due to the enormous ecological, logistical and legal barriers to do so.
- jakeogh 8y ago
  No worries, it will be the Dems that "end" the shutdown when they fund the peaches.

maratd 8y ago

> Serious question for US members of HN: how do you tolerate these shutdowns? I realize this is being portrayed in the media as a total government shutdown, but that's really not the case. The US has multiple levels of government. Federal, State, County, and Municipal. State, County, and Municipal governments (which are the ones that really provide essential services), are operating normally. For the Federal government, any self-sufficient or quasi-self-sufficient operations (like the USPTO, USPS, etc.) are unaffected. Any operations that already had their budgets passed are unaffected. We're talking about a fraction of the total government here. There's more drama here than anything else. Yes, there are people whose lives are affected, but they're a small fraction of the population. I believe there were estimates of 400k? Even if we bump that up to a million to be conservative, we're talking about 0.25% of the population.

dragontamer 8y ago
> For the Federal government, any self-sufficient or quasi-self-sufficient operations (like the USPTO, USPS, etc.) are unaffected. Any operations that already had their budgets passed are unaffected. Wrong. The Federal Budget was done in steps. Only 25% of the government was under debate on Dec 2017, so only that 25% of the Federal Government was shutdown. In 2014 (IIRC), there WAS a total government shutdown for a few days. > We're talking about a fraction of the total government here. There's more drama here than anything else. 25% of the federal government is roughly 800,000 workers who have gotten a $0.0 paycheck yesterday, while most of them were forced to keep working. Most noticably: Boarder Patrol Agents, TSA Agents, US Air Marshals, and Air Traffic Control agents. They ALL got $0.0 paychecks. IRS is also affected: the entirety of the IRS got $0 paycheck yesterday. The fact that airports keep working are because these TSA Agents + Air Traffic controllers have decided that keeping the airports open are more important than getting a paycheck. Salute them next time you see one and thank them for their sacrifice. Airports literally can't function without air-traffic control, and TSA have a thankless job.
- ta8347 8y ago
  TSA is useless
- 8y ago

choko 8y ago

One reason is because local government is operating normally, and local government (not federal) functions are what impacts people's lives the most. For all the attention federal issues garner, local government has a much larger impact on day to day life in the US.

noir_lord 8y ago
Same in the UK, one of the reasons that it annoys the hell out of me that local government isn't taken more seriously by the electorate.

ok_coo 8y ago

My wife came home yesterday and told me that her work said if the shutdown continues in late February - March that they'll probably have to cut her position along with others at her workplace (they're federally-funded). If that happens, I will likely be forced to quit my current job as well and find a higher paying job to help compensate while she looks for new work. I'm currently paid under market rate, but I love my job, so I'd prefer to stay where I'm at instead of look for other work to make up for our loss of income. If this shutdown continues, I think people severely underestimate the negative impact it's going to have on this country. There's going to be a lot of pain and transitions that will have to happen. If he really wants this wall funded, he should go through the normal channels. It's difficult to see how this isn't anything but a temper tantrum.

dragontamer 8y ago
His base wants the temper tantrum and the shutdown. The fact of the matter is, Trump hasn't lost any ground in his approval rating over this yet. With that being said, Democrats don't want the wall. They were pretty much elected to stop the wall and have a huge majority in the House. I don't see how this gets resolved at all. To have the shutdown end, the House (Democrats), Senate (Republicans), and President have to agree on a singular solution. In the past, the general agreement has been "Lets keep the budget numbers the same and argue about this later". But the typical plan has failed, Trump is doubling down on the wall (+$5.7 Billion added to the budget), and his base loves it.
- admax88q 8y ago
  > House (Democrats), Senate (Republicans), and President have to agree on a singular solution The House and Senate can override the president with a super majority. They don't technically need the president's approval. However getting a super majority in the senate to override a veto will be difficult as most Republicans see loyalty to Trump as important for re-election.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    > The House and Senate can override the president with a super majority. They don't technically need the president's approval. Senate is the place where bills die. You've got not only the Republican-controlled majority, but Democrats can filibuster anything they disagree with in the Senate. So to pass the Senate normally, you need to have Republicans agree, Democrats "Not Protest". A Supermajority Senate override of a veto is 67 votes (out of 100). Frankly, I don't see that ever happening in the current political climate.

FPGAhacker 8y ago

Say you have a government that does only two things, of equal cost. Feed hungry children, and make Statues of past leaders for city squares. Now imagine the budget of the government was cut in half by Congress. Which of these two things do you think they would stop doing? The answer is very likely to stop feeding hungry children. Tax payers will feel that pain and become irate at the budget cuts and demand the budget be reinstated. If they stopped producing statues, taxpayers would probably not notice and wonder why the budget was so high to begin with. So it goes with the American federal government. The departments shut down things that will cause the most pain, fear, anger to the public until the public demands budgetary reinstatement. Credits to Thomas Sowell for the analogy. If you want a good laugh and also see what the fed wastes money on, go look at Rand Paul’s Festivus thread on Twitter.

panarky 8y ago
> see what the fed wastes money on Yes, there's tremendous waste in the public sector. But I've worked for large private enterprises most of my career, and there is astronomical waste there too. I'd bet a year's salary that the waste in large private organizations is far greater than in large government organizations.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  Public waste bothers me more, as I can’t opt out of it. Private waste? I can just choose not invest in that company (or short them if they’re public).
equalunique 8y ago
Your comment should not have been downvoted.

wil421 8y ago

No noticeable impact to me or anyone I know what so ever. The only thing I can’t do is go to a park near the river it’s part of the National Parks system which is shutdown. Most services I need are run by my state. I can’t really think of anything federal I need beside the IRS in February. I generally feel bad for federal employees in my area. My credit union is extending interest free loans and some banks are allowing people to postpone mortgage payments. There are two sides to the coin and many banks are actually giving predetory type loans.

equalunique 8y ago

I have known several US government workers who describe these shutdowns as a "free vacation". It's also a partial shutdown where many "essential" agencies are still operating (most of Department of Homeland Security), others are funded separately (Department of Veteran's Affairs), and some have already recieved new funding (US Coast Guard). Also worth noting is many government contractors are on fully funded contracts, meaning many are operating in the same fashion as they would during the week of Christmas (i.e., keep the lights on while most Federal employees are out). Basically this is a tolerable situation for what I would characterize as half of US government workers so far, regardless of where they fall on the border wall issue, and especially considering legislation has been passed this week to give government workers back-pay (e.g. the "free vacation" sentiment). Now that a whole pay period has passed, the situation will become more tense & I expect a change to occur soon. I hope Democrats make a deal with Trump, in which case Democrats win something (like real DACA legislation), Trump wins funding authorized for more border walls (less than what Democrats authorized several years ago for similar ones), and the government opens back up. The alternative is Democrats win nothing, Trump wins athority over many more billions of dollars via the national emergency route, and the governemnt opens back up - DACA later becomes an unsolved issue when the Supreme Court (likley) strikes it down.

KeepFlying 8y ago

I hate that the government is shut down. It's stupid that people's livelihoods are a bargaining chip, especially when every administration talks about increasing jobs. But it hasn't personally affected me yet. I am not a government employee and at the moment I am not in need of any of the government services that are shut down. As for if they will get paid afterward, well legally the government cannot promise that. Legally it's possible that the new budget may even disband something like the TSA and all of the workers who have been working for free would be even more screwed. But historically every shutdown ended with giving back pay to the workers who had to work for free. They just can't guarantee it.

jeffcore 8y ago
> As for if they will get paid afterward, well legally the government cannot promise that. Legally it's possible that the new budget may even disband something like the TSA and all of the workers who have been working for free would be even more screwed. But historically every shutdown ended with giving back pay to the workers who had to work for free. They just can't guarantee it. Yes and no. Excepted service employees, which includes most of the TSA, are guaranteed to receive back pay for time worked during the shutdown, as agencies are required to pay for services performed. However, Congress and the President must pass and a sign a bill explicitly paying workers who were furloughed (i.e., non-essential and non-excepted employees). As the shutdown continues, excepted and essential workers may be entitled to double pay due to the Fair Labor Standards Act.