7 ms·

The GDPR has already resulted in quite a few websites simply refusing to serve the EU. Will this clinch it? Will the EU be cut off form the internet due to ov

The GDPR has already resulted in quite a few websites simply refusing to serve the EU. Will this clinch it? Will the EU be cut off form the internet due to over-regulation that no one wants to put themselves at risk over?

kuu 8y ago
Nope
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
I've so far only noticed the blocking on (tabloid) US news sites which when visited with a VPN are full of trackers and overflowing with ads. It didn't feel like a loss to me but would be curious to know if there are services which people feel they really needed/wanted but now can't access w/out VPN?
- mbel 8y ago
  Instapaper was a sort of nice utility that blocked EU users after May last year. Fortunately there are alternatives, some of them arguably superior (pinboard?).
  - fredoliveira 8y ago
    To be fair, it's been back for a few months and when they did bring it back, they apologized for how they handled the issue for EU citizens.
- tallanvor 8y ago
  The Chicago Tribune is not a tabloid, and it blocks EU visitors now, nor are many TV stations that now block people from outside the US. Even a VPN doesn't always solve the problem, unfortunately. It's also very annoying that Google News still shows links from those sites even though you can't actually visit them.
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    I was actually searching for this very example but incorrectly remembered it as LA Times (but it was the Chicago Tribune). Not sure if this is a loss to people in the EU if the CT would go dark for them. Maybe annoying to expats but not sure if anyone here would cry over them. This might have in fact been the reason why they didn't bother with compliance in the first place (no subscribers/reader from EU)?
chunkyslink 8y ago
I would love to be cut off from Facebook. Please do it now.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  What about other people that like the service? Why don't you stop using it yourself and instead try to forcibly impose your personal ideals on others?
  - askmike 8y ago
    The problem with Facebook is that they track everyone, FB users or not. Most likely breaking GDPR for basically every European who uses the internet. Good talk from a few weeks ago: https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9941-how_facebook_tracks_you_on_android https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9941-how_facebook_tracks_you_on_... (that's just android, but they do just as much web tracking through their pixel for example).
  - mrweasel 8y ago
    Agreed, it's a way over the top. However, I would like the EU, or the US, to tell Facebook to get their data collection and reselling under control. The GDPR should have taken care of that issue, but until someone drag Facebook to count over a GDPR violation and wins, nothing is going to change.
- offsetr 8y ago
  Too bad, gdpr actually makes facebook stronger..
  - y4mi 8y ago
    Not unless their lawyers somehow keep the regulation from being enforced for them indefinitely. The regulation itself forbids their main income source
    - pas 8y ago
      no it doesn't. facebook was always pretty good at asking for permission. it showed you that so and so app will have access to this and that. and people blindly clicked it, because they wanted the maffia wars, the mob wars, the farmville, the latest zinga shitclick time waster to one up their friends in imaginary internet point games. (I tried them too, then luckily the fad wore off.) FB has to show who they sell data to, that's the new part basically. They will probably show a long list of random companies. It'll look a bit scary, people will get accustomed to it. (FB will find a dark pattern that minimizes the attrition due to any permission/consent step in their money machine.)
yani 8y ago
Businesses cannot afford it and no, it is not happening. Also, abusing GDPR is one thing, how about all these companies start to pay VAT and taxes on sales originated from EU.
- Maarten88 8y ago
  Business currently just state they comply with GDPR, but really they don't. All these big blanket OK consent buttons we see on landing pages have already been shown in court do not constitute informed and freely given consent. The real impact has het to come, hopefully after some stiff fines are handed. And you are right: I also wonder about enabling large scale VAT dodging by sites like aliexpress.
- dageshi 8y ago
  I assume you'd be happy for EU businesses to reciprocate and pay US sales taxes on goods & services sold into the US? Even if you are, I'm not actually sure that would be better for anyone involved. Seems like it would essentially stop or severely diminish online commerce between US/EU as too much hassle.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
GDPR caused some non EU media businesses to preemptively block EU users because their primary readership is not in the EU and their primary business model is abusing their users in ways that GDPR restricts. GDPR did not really change the media landscape in the EU. Business as usual here. Mostly companies went through a brief period where they had to consult lawyers and expensive agencies on how to cover their asses. Mostly good things have started happening after that. Some companies that were doing technically unacceptable things under pre-GDPR legislation have now grudgingly stopped doing those things.
- nmeofthestate 8y ago
  The only thing I've noticed is even more website popups about cookies that make it hard to anything but give the go-ahead to all the cookies, but I'm not sure whether that is a result of GDPR.
  - Tor3 8y ago
    That's pre-GDPR (barely), and the original idea was that users should be able to opt out of cookie tracking. But instead most web sites just added that super-annoying (particularly when it covers the whole page) pop-up giving you one option: Accept cookies or else. That was not the intention of the regulation at all. So far I've seen only a single web site that actually gave you the option to not use cookies (yes/no, not just yes).
    - krelian 8y ago
      I suspect that this is mostly the results of the all or nothing being the easier to implement solution. I've seen several websites that do a offer a more advanced tool where you can opt-out of some cookies (3rd party tracking mostly) but still use the main site.
    - nmeofthestate 8y ago
      Yes, it's normally websites run by "good people" (some non-commercial organisation) that let you easily say yes/no. Media websites implement the dark pattern of Yes/[wilderness of options page]. This is pre-GDPR, but it feels like since GDPR there's been a real uptick in this.
Double_a_92 8y ago
Because those pages sucked and didn't want to protect it's users privacy. It's like saying that criminal laws prevented people from getting happily scammed.
DCKing 8y ago
I think calling GDPR over-regulation is extremely suspect. The GDPR does a good job in codifying basic privacy principles of what you can do with personal data. Clear communication, consent, control over your own data and data protection principles. Things that should be self-evident but we have been failing with forever, and something that has become an extremely widespread widespread in an online society. The only reason to call it over regulation is if you're spoiled about not being regulated beforehand - but there was a clear need for such a law and codifying reasonable privacy principles. I don't understand why I hear so few Americans about wanting this in their own country. Article 13 is fundamentally different from the GDPR. The fundamental problem is that I think (and most people hopefully do) user privacy is an ethical good, and I don't believe (much of) copyright law is an ethical good. If you fundamentally believe copyright must be defended vigilantly Article 13 is not an unreasonable consequence at all - I just don't agree with that premise one bit. Websites that don't want to comply with GDPR, I say good riddance. If you really feel you cannot uphold the basic privacy principles posited, then screw you too. But for Article 13, the laws are only in the interest of big corporations. I don't care about those.
- sambe 8y ago
  There is a cost to businesses in complying with and implementing regulations, regardless of the size of the business and how good or bad their behaviour has been with respect to the intention of those regulations. You can't deny over-regulation by assuming only the badly-behaving people are burdened by it. Besides, there is also a cost to me: the never-ending pop-ups and acceptance dialogues, inability to access information in a straightforward manner for those that choose to block, etc. What is the percentage of users who actively control their privacy as a result of GDPR (and still happily use the website)? What is the percentage of badly -behaving businesses who will be prosecuted?
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    If a business can't afford basic privacy processes then it deserves to fail. The law doesn't ask for any popups, blocking is a dumb option that not many take, and for prosecutions we'll have to wait a bit longer before we see.
Timpy 8y ago
But it's in a website's favor to serve as many consumers as possible, won't any group that isn't willing to conform to EU standards be out competed by those that do?
koonsolo 8y ago
If a few major sites like Wikipedia, YouTube and Facebook decide to not service EU any longer, I think it won't take long before that regulation is rolled back. No idea if such a thing would happen though.

kuu 8y ago

Nope

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

I've so far only noticed the blocking on (tabloid) US news sites which when visited with a VPN are full of trackers and overflowing with ads. It didn't feel like a loss to me but would be curious to know if there are services which people feel they really needed/wanted but now can't access w/out VPN?

mbel 8y ago
Instapaper was a sort of nice utility that blocked EU users after May last year. Fortunately there are alternatives, some of them arguably superior (pinboard?).
- fredoliveira 8y ago
  To be fair, it's been back for a few months and when they did bring it back, they apologized for how they handled the issue for EU citizens.
tallanvor 8y ago
The Chicago Tribune is not a tabloid, and it blocks EU visitors now, nor are many TV stations that now block people from outside the US. Even a VPN doesn't always solve the problem, unfortunately. It's also very annoying that Google News still shows links from those sites even though you can't actually visit them.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  I was actually searching for this very example but incorrectly remembered it as LA Times (but it was the Chicago Tribune). Not sure if this is a loss to people in the EU if the CT would go dark for them. Maybe annoying to expats but not sure if anyone here would cry over them. This might have in fact been the reason why they didn't bother with compliance in the first place (no subscribers/reader from EU)?

chunkyslink 8y ago

I would love to be cut off from Facebook. Please do it now.

TomMarius 8y ago
What about other people that like the service? Why don't you stop using it yourself and instead try to forcibly impose your personal ideals on others?
- askmike 8y ago
  The problem with Facebook is that they track everyone, FB users or not. Most likely breaking GDPR for basically every European who uses the internet. Good talk from a few weeks ago: https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9941-how_facebook_tracks_you_on_android https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9941-how_facebook_tracks_you_on_... (that's just android, but they do just as much web tracking through their pixel for example).
- mrweasel 8y ago
  Agreed, it's a way over the top. However, I would like the EU, or the US, to tell Facebook to get their data collection and reselling under control. The GDPR should have taken care of that issue, but until someone drag Facebook to count over a GDPR violation and wins, nothing is going to change.
offsetr 8y ago
Too bad, gdpr actually makes facebook stronger..
- y4mi 8y ago
  Not unless their lawyers somehow keep the regulation from being enforced for them indefinitely. The regulation itself forbids their main income source
  - pas 8y ago
    no it doesn't. facebook was always pretty good at asking for permission. it showed you that so and so app will have access to this and that. and people blindly clicked it, because they wanted the maffia wars, the mob wars, the farmville, the latest zinga shitclick time waster to one up their friends in imaginary internet point games. (I tried them too, then luckily the fad wore off.) FB has to show who they sell data to, that's the new part basically. They will probably show a long list of random companies. It'll look a bit scary, people will get accustomed to it. (FB will find a dark pattern that minimizes the attrition due to any permission/consent step in their money machine.)

yani 8y ago

Businesses cannot afford it and no, it is not happening. Also, abusing GDPR is one thing, how about all these companies start to pay VAT and taxes on sales originated from EU.

Maarten88 8y ago
Business currently just state they comply with GDPR, but really they don't. All these big blanket OK consent buttons we see on landing pages have already been shown in court do not constitute informed and freely given consent. The real impact has het to come, hopefully after some stiff fines are handed. And you are right: I also wonder about enabling large scale VAT dodging by sites like aliexpress.
dageshi 8y ago
I assume you'd be happy for EU businesses to reciprocate and pay US sales taxes on goods & services sold into the US? Even if you are, I'm not actually sure that would be better for anyone involved. Seems like it would essentially stop or severely diminish online commerce between US/EU as too much hassle.

jillesvangurp 8y ago

GDPR caused some non EU media businesses to preemptively block EU users because their primary readership is not in the EU and their primary business model is abusing their users in ways that GDPR restricts. GDPR did not really change the media landscape in the EU. Business as usual here. Mostly companies went through a brief period where they had to consult lawyers and expensive agencies on how to cover their asses. Mostly good things have started happening after that. Some companies that were doing technically unacceptable things under pre-GDPR legislation have now grudgingly stopped doing those things.

nmeofthestate 8y ago
The only thing I've noticed is even more website popups about cookies that make it hard to anything but give the go-ahead to all the cookies, but I'm not sure whether that is a result of GDPR.
- Tor3 8y ago
  That's pre-GDPR (barely), and the original idea was that users should be able to opt out of cookie tracking. But instead most web sites just added that super-annoying (particularly when it covers the whole page) pop-up giving you one option: Accept cookies or else. That was not the intention of the regulation at all. So far I've seen only a single web site that actually gave you the option to not use cookies (yes/no, not just yes).
  - krelian 8y ago
    I suspect that this is mostly the results of the all or nothing being the easier to implement solution. I've seen several websites that do a offer a more advanced tool where you can opt-out of some cookies (3rd party tracking mostly) but still use the main site.
  - nmeofthestate 8y ago
    Yes, it's normally websites run by "good people" (some non-commercial organisation) that let you easily say yes/no. Media websites implement the dark pattern of Yes/[wilderness of options page]. This is pre-GDPR, but it feels like since GDPR there's been a real uptick in this.

Double_a_92 8y ago

Because those pages sucked and didn't want to protect it's users privacy. It's like saying that criminal laws prevented people from getting happily scammed.

DCKing 8y ago

I think calling GDPR over-regulation is extremely suspect. The GDPR does a good job in codifying basic privacy principles of what you can do with personal data. Clear communication, consent, control over your own data and data protection principles. Things that should be self-evident but we have been failing with forever, and something that has become an extremely widespread widespread in an online society. The only reason to call it over regulation is if you're spoiled about not being regulated beforehand - but there was a clear need for such a law and codifying reasonable privacy principles. I don't understand why I hear so few Americans about wanting this in their own country. Article 13 is fundamentally different from the GDPR. The fundamental problem is that I think (and most people hopefully do) user privacy is an ethical good, and I don't believe (much of) copyright law is an ethical good. If you fundamentally believe copyright must be defended vigilantly Article 13 is not an unreasonable consequence at all - I just don't agree with that premise one bit. Websites that don't want to comply with GDPR, I say good riddance. If you really feel you cannot uphold the basic privacy principles posited, then screw you too. But for Article 13, the laws are only in the interest of big corporations. I don't care about those.

sambe 8y ago
There is a cost to businesses in complying with and implementing regulations, regardless of the size of the business and how good or bad their behaviour has been with respect to the intention of those regulations. You can't deny over-regulation by assuming only the badly-behaving people are burdened by it. Besides, there is also a cost to me: the never-ending pop-ups and acceptance dialogues, inability to access information in a straightforward manner for those that choose to block, etc. What is the percentage of users who actively control their privacy as a result of GDPR (and still happily use the website)? What is the percentage of badly -behaving businesses who will be prosecuted?
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  If a business can't afford basic privacy processes then it deserves to fail. The law doesn't ask for any popups, blocking is a dumb option that not many take, and for prosecutions we'll have to wait a bit longer before we see.

Timpy 8y ago

But it's in a website's favor to serve as many consumers as possible, won't any group that isn't willing to conform to EU standards be out competed by those that do?

koonsolo 8y ago

If a few major sites like Wikipedia, YouTube and Facebook decide to not service EU any longer, I think it won't take long before that regulation is rolled back. No idea if such a thing would happen though.