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why can’t we have both? why can’t we use our companies to spread proper values? isn’t this the same backlash of google going into china? would netflix also help

why can’t we have both? why can’t we use our companies to spread proper values? isn’t this the same backlash of google going into china? would netflix also help MBS chop up journalists or oppress women?

StavrosK 8y ago
Because there are no "proper values", there are "your values". https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/n5TqCuizyJDfAPjkr/the-baby-eating-aliens-1-8 https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/n5TqCuizyJDfAPjkr/the-baby-e...
- perfmode 8y ago
  Just because morality is subjective doesn’t mean there aren’t rights that we must deem fundamental and defend globally. This knee jerk relativism is getting old. Just because morality exists outside of systems of formal logic, doesnt make it any less important. It is still up for debate.
  - StavrosK 8y ago
    Which right is more fundamental? My right of deciding my own morality, or your right of enforcing your global values?
    - perfmode 8y ago
      > All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. The above is an example of a “global value” to be enforced. If that is being violated anywhere, it is a problem.
    - ForHackernews 8y ago
      Nobody is forcing Saudis to watch a Netflix show they find morally repugnant -- the Saudi government prevented its citizens from seeing something politically sensitive. I can't believe posters on HN are defending this.
      - perfmode 8y ago
        Indeed. I can’t for the life of me understand what motivates people on this forum to behave this way...
      - StavrosK 8y ago
        Who's defending this? I, specifically, didn't talk about this specific instance at all.
        perfmode 8y ago
        Pick a position.
        StavrosK 8y ago
        Right, because there must be enforceable universal moralities for Netflix to decide that they don't want to remove an episode.
        perfmode 8y ago
        My issue with your participation in this discussion is that you think you are moving the discussion forward when you post a less-wrong link to support your statement about moral relativism. And you maintain the same sense of correctness even as it is explained to you that your argument is regressive and unhelpful.
        StavrosK 8y ago
        I posted exactly two comments on this, one saying that there are no "proper values", and one asking what they would look like if there were. Commenters mistaking this for me condoning what Netflix did or making some broader assumption are just that, mistaken. You did answer my question with an example, but I chose not to reply because I thought that if two sentences can be misconstrued so badly, more sentences wouldn't make anything better, but, since you replied, I will ask you: > All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights If a woman decides that she wants to cover her face with a burqa and we legislate a burqa ban, are we following her right to freedom or are we oppressing her? If a society votes that they don't want to see nudity on TV, is it right for another society to not adhere to that? Is it moral for Spotify to censor songs that the US finds offensive, even though Sweden disagrees?
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  How is this not an apology for raping children or female genital mutilation?
  - alkibiades 8y ago
    it’s exactly that. to moral relativists there’s no way to make any judgement between rape children and devoting your life to helping others. In fact, they could think it’s a perfectly valid opinion that the former is better than the latter morally.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  But then why is pure profit motive a default, it's not fundamentally more "proper". This just sounds like an excuse to pander to human greed.
- alkibiades 8y ago
  just because you say that confidently doesn’t mean it’s true
SpicyLemonZest 8y ago
We can't do it because we don't want other countries doing it to us. Can you imagine the outrage if a Saudi company in the US was ordered to stop discriminating, and they refused to comply because they believe gender discrimination is proper and just? Certainly there are some things so terrible that we should expect companies not to go along, preferring to leave the country rather than participate. But censoring a TV episode (not even an entire show!) isn't that bad in the scheme of things.
- oaiey 8y ago
  Very smart argument! However, this happens nevertheless all the time (GDPR, food/drug regulations, ...). We just consider it normal when we can somehow agree on the benefits :).
tanilama 8y ago
Because SA is a powerful country. Netflix is small steaming company comparing to it. Their power aren't on par with each other. Besides, Saudi probably has very different values, I am pretty sure if they try to spread their version of proper values in US, like what quality defines a woman, people won't be very welcoming and outrage will follow.
- atomical 8y ago
  Are sexism and homophobia values now?
  - oaiey 8y ago
    Ask the right 15% of the population. We just marginalized sexism and homophobia in the western societies. Do not extrapolate from that. Take religion as a sample. The western countries will be majority atheist in 30-50 years. Do not assume that is the same around the globe.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  Now, the power imbalance is a problem, of course. But the mere fact that someone has a different opinion on something does not in any way entitle them to equal consideration of their position. Just because a murderer thinks that murdering people is fine does not mean that you should be welcoming towards murders or that outrage is unjustified.

StavrosK 8y ago

Because there are no "proper values", there are "your values". https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/n5TqCuizyJDfAPjkr/the-baby-eating-aliens-1-8 https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/n5TqCuizyJDfAPjkr/the-baby-e...

perfmode 8y ago
Just because morality is subjective doesn’t mean there aren’t rights that we must deem fundamental and defend globally. This knee jerk relativism is getting old. Just because morality exists outside of systems of formal logic, doesnt make it any less important. It is still up for debate.
- StavrosK 8y ago
  Which right is more fundamental? My right of deciding my own morality, or your right of enforcing your global values?
  - perfmode 8y ago
    > All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. The above is an example of a “global value” to be enforced. If that is being violated anywhere, it is a problem.
  - ForHackernews 8y ago
    Nobody is forcing Saudis to watch a Netflix show they find morally repugnant -- the Saudi government prevented its citizens from seeing something politically sensitive. I can't believe posters on HN are defending this.
    - perfmode 8y ago
      Indeed. I can’t for the life of me understand what motivates people on this forum to behave this way...
    - StavrosK 8y ago
      Who's defending this? I, specifically, didn't talk about this specific instance at all.
      - perfmode 8y ago
        Pick a position.
        StavrosK 8y ago
        Right, because there must be enforceable universal moralities for Netflix to decide that they don't want to remove an episode.
        perfmode 8y ago
        My issue with your participation in this discussion is that you think you are moving the discussion forward when you post a less-wrong link to support your statement about moral relativism. And you maintain the same sense of correctness even as it is explained to you that your argument is regressive and unhelpful.
        StavrosK 8y ago
        I posted exactly two comments on this, one saying that there are no "proper values", and one asking what they would look like if there were. Commenters mistaking this for me condoning what Netflix did or making some broader assumption are just that, mistaken. You did answer my question with an example, but I chose not to reply because I thought that if two sentences can be misconstrued so badly, more sentences wouldn't make anything better, but, since you replied, I will ask you: > All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights If a woman decides that she wants to cover her face with a burqa and we legislate a burqa ban, are we following her right to freedom or are we oppressing her? If a society votes that they don't want to see nudity on TV, is it right for another society to not adhere to that? Is it moral for Spotify to censor songs that the US finds offensive, even though Sweden disagrees?
yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
How is this not an apology for raping children or female genital mutilation?
- alkibiades 8y ago
  it’s exactly that. to moral relativists there’s no way to make any judgement between rape children and devoting your life to helping others. In fact, they could think it’s a perfectly valid opinion that the former is better than the latter morally.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
But then why is pure profit motive a default, it's not fundamentally more "proper". This just sounds like an excuse to pander to human greed.
alkibiades 8y ago
just because you say that confidently doesn’t mean it’s true

SpicyLemonZest 8y ago

We can't do it because we don't want other countries doing it to us. Can you imagine the outrage if a Saudi company in the US was ordered to stop discriminating, and they refused to comply because they believe gender discrimination is proper and just? Certainly there are some things so terrible that we should expect companies not to go along, preferring to leave the country rather than participate. But censoring a TV episode (not even an entire show!) isn't that bad in the scheme of things.

oaiey 8y ago
Very smart argument! However, this happens nevertheless all the time (GDPR, food/drug regulations, ...). We just consider it normal when we can somehow agree on the benefits :).

tanilama 8y ago

Because SA is a powerful country. Netflix is small steaming company comparing to it. Their power aren't on par with each other. Besides, Saudi probably has very different values, I am pretty sure if they try to spread their version of proper values in US, like what quality defines a woman, people won't be very welcoming and outrage will follow.

atomical 8y ago
Are sexism and homophobia values now?
- oaiey 8y ago
  Ask the right 15% of the population. We just marginalized sexism and homophobia in the western societies. Do not extrapolate from that. Take religion as a sample. The western countries will be majority atheist in 30-50 years. Do not assume that is the same around the globe.
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
Now, the power imbalance is a problem, of course. But the mere fact that someone has a different opinion on something does not in any way entitle them to equal consideration of their position. Just because a murderer thinks that murdering people is fine does not mean that you should be welcoming towards murders or that outrage is unjustified.