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Practically speaking, Chinese nationals enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically sensitive topics in public. On the other hand

Practically speaking, Chinese nationals enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically sensitive topics in public. On the other hand, people in US enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically incorrect topics in public. So basically in both cases, people are just hiding what they truly know/think in their minds instead of speaking them out.

graeme 8y ago
Do you know what you don't know though? People can freely find info on politically taboo topics if they want in the west. Whereas, do you know about the famine in the great leap forward? And it is widely known? I was talking to one chinese student who maintained that there was no censorship in china. She was surprised to learn that I, a foreigner, could not make a wechat account for my business. And she is well educated, has travelled abroad, etc
- paraditedc 8y ago
  People know things are being censored, well, as least of my age. There is a term and a meme for it on Chinese internet. You can Google-translate these pages that explain the term: https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/1882528841530933188.html https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/1882528841530933188.html https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B2%B3%E8%9F%B9/10292878 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B2%B3%E8%9F%B9/10292878
  - graeme 8y ago
    That was a more extreme example. I expect most Chinese online know of censorship. But do you/they know about the government caused famine under Mao?
    - paraditedc 8y ago
      As far as I recall, everything else that is negative, except 1989, was taught in secondary school history class.
      - becege90 8y ago
        This is not correct. I grew up in China (Beijing to be more specific) and it is definitely not taught in school. All history I’ve learn casts China as having done everything right.
        paraditedc 8y ago
        Were you taught using 人教版 or 北师大版 history textbook? I'm pretty sure 四人帮 and 大跃进 were inside 北师大版 and called a mistake. Well at least for my year. Maybe they changed it, or you didn't pay attention in class.
        becege90 8y ago
        It was quite a while ago so I don’t recall who made the book, I went to high school there more than 10 years ago. I used whichever books were standard. But if I remember correctly, they portraited Si Ren Bang as a group of four planning against the state, no fault was assigned to China or Mao.
        paraditedc 8y ago
        What about 大越进 or 文化大革命? At least in my textbook they were attributed as CCP and Mao's mistake.
  - becege90 8y ago
    This is a censored answer /explanation of the term.
- withhighprod 8y ago
  My friends are criticizing /making fun of communist leaders all the time on WeChat group and no one get arrested or affected(in fact couple of us work for state owned bank and agency). We were joking once we are “aggressively attacking our socialist system”(猖狂的向社会主义制度进攻） Of course it’s another story if our wechat group grows to 500 people rather than 10 or we have a celebrity in this group. It’s all about the scale of the impact
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > People can freely find info on politically taboo topics if they want in the west. > Whereas, do you know about the famine in the great leap forward? And it is widely known? Yes, the famine is widely known. It's not considered secret at all. However, it is attributed to the weather, not to the government.
Simon_says 8y ago
That's interesting. Thanks for responding. Do you really think it's the same? My perspective is that there's such an incredible difference in degree as to be a difference in kind. Politically incorrect speech in the US may get you socially ostracized, but not literally jailed. And occasionally some people actually do it (look at any self-proclaimed Nazi or the Westboro Baptist Church). And criticizing the government or governance in the US is not politically incorrect; it's rather in vogue these days.
wybiral 8y ago
> On the other hand, people in US enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically incorrect topics in public. I can, and do, publicly express politically incorrect (and sometimes downright incorrect) opinions in public. That's why Twitter exists. The only thing stopping you is cultural norms (should you choose to accept and fear them).
- paraditedc 8y ago
  Post "XYZ is a nigger" or "I hate gays" on your Twitter and I will concede. Edit: Seems like I have crossed the line on HN. Moderators, feel free to moderate this comment. And apologies for unintentionally starting this long and boring thread.
  - wybiral 8y ago
    It's not illegal just because Twitter doesn't allow it on their platform. You can run your own site, tattoo is on your face, say it to your friends... As long as you aren't directly inciting violence against others. That's really the only thing that's outright censored (genuine hate speech). But criticizing the government, laws, society, anything really, is totally legal and in fact constitutionally protected. Just don't hurt or threaten other people. > Edit: Seems like I have crossed the line on HN. Moderators, feel free to moderate this comment. Did you get an actual warning or are you trying to make a point about censorship?
  - benrbray 8y ago
    You're right that the words we say can determine what other people think of us. But that's how language works. Most people, rightfully, don't want to associate with someone who invokes racial slurs. The point is that we are free to do so without fear of retaliation from the government. People are free to argue with each other and determine for themselves where to draw the lines.
  - withhighprod 8y ago
    Wow so immediately downvoted, proof of your point Edit: just imagine how much trouble he’ll get if his true identity is ever revealed EDIT: no offense, he/she/it/the poster/BT
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
People talk about politically incorrect things all the time on the American internet. The government never censors it and there is no law against it. If you need evidence, just look at Trump’s tweet feed.
travisoneill1 8y ago
Yes you definitely have a point there. Your censorship is done centrally and explicitly by the government. Ours is done by the ever changing unwritten rules of sanctimonious mobs performing their offense rituals and the corporate advertisers who fear them. Which is worse is up for debate I guess.
- JPKab 8y ago
  Central governments can execute you. I'll let that speak for itself on "which is worse". I find these cases where modern, educated westerners are afraid to draw the obvious, self evident conclusion sad. You know which is worse, but you actually think someone else who disagrees is worthy of respect. They aren't. They are brainwashed. Until people wake up from this silly idea that there are infinite interpretations of reality that are all equal, this weak kind of statements will continue. Roseanne Barr didn't get arrested, imprisoned, or executed. The CCP fears and hates it's own people. I walked through an Ai Wei Wei exhibit 2 years ago. I was awestruck and moved to silence by his amazing work. Along with the aforementioned Nobel Laureate, these are individuals that are gifts to the human race. But their mere opinions threaten the CCP, and the last I heard, Weiwei had his studio burned and had been intermittently imprisoned. An amazing, once in a generation artist..... And you have the audacity to act as if there is an equivalency here. Wow.
  - travisoneill1 8y ago
    Angry mobs can execute people too, and did so frequently in the US not so long ago. To a black man in the 1920's non governmental censorship was a deadly threat. Freedom of speech is not an interpretation of reality. It can't be proven or falsified. It is a religious belief, and not all societies share it. I do personally think that their system is worse in terms of magnitude of consequences, and that ours is worse in that its rules are completely arbitrary and unwritten.
    - wybiral 8y ago
      > Angry mobs can execute people too, and did so frequently in the US not so long ago. Yes, that's why we have government and law in an attempt to protect you from things like that. So the fact that some other government or law is intentionally doing that to other people doesn't seem like a rationalizing argument to me.
yters 8y ago
The curtailing of freedom of speech in America is more due to media platforms, social more or academia than the government's use of force. In America, no one is going to be placed in jail and have their organs harvested for speaking in public on some subject. I regularly stand outside abortion facilities with signs depicting graphic abortions (very politically incorrect), and do not get arrested. Even in the UK I would be arrested for such things.
- amaccuish 8y ago
  > I regularly stand outside abortion facilities with signs depicting graphic abortions May I ask, if it's ok, why do you do this?
  - yters 8y ago
    To show people the obvious but ignored fact that abortion is the killing of babies.
andrepd 8y ago
That's the kind of relativisation that were this another medium and I would call it paid shilling. You cannot with any seriousness compare the de-normalisation of certain opinions, as it happened in the US in the past few decades, with the systematic, brutal, ubiquitous repression and censorship happening in China right now. China is one of the most un-free countries on earth in nearly every measure. Claiming that, eh sure, it is one way to do things and in the west they fire you if you say you hate niggers, so this is two flavours of pretty much the same thing, claiming this is the kind of gaslighting and propaganda that regimes such as China and Russia are trying to push on the West.
- paraditedc 8y ago
  > China is one of the most un-free countries on earth in nearly every measure. Sorry if it is too personal, but if you don't mind, I would like to know if you have actually visited China. In my opinion, only people who have actual experience living in China are qualified to make such statements.
  - becege90 8y ago
    I have actually lived in China and can confirm that it is extremely unfree. I went to a good school in Beijing, and after arriving in the US, I realized they were teaching us basically propaganda in our Chinese, History, and Poli Sci classes. They even managed to sneak propaganda into our chemistry class, it’s nuts!
    - paraditedc 8y ago
      I agree that there's much propaganda in the textbook, but how was it related to "extremely unfree"?
    - thrwy_01 8y ago
      Could you please give us examples of propaganda in chemistry (or any other hard science) class?
  - andrepd 8y ago
mc32 8y ago
I think there is a divide between people who think government (as well as private companies) should be in the business of managing offensive speech and people who believe in more liberal freedom of speech (with very narrow exceptions). One group is more aligned in this regard with socialism and the other with libertarianism.
JacobJans 8y ago
> On the other hand, people in US enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically incorrect topics in public. This is not true; there are many common instances of this happening, Every Single Day.
DoctorOetker 8y ago
I was wondering, and I think you may know the answer: Let me classify politically (potentially sensitive/incorrect) topics into 2 classes: 1) concerning concrete specific claims of history or what is happening or happened, 2) abstract discussion of properties of systems, designing "utopias", expressing general complaints and identifying their root/radix/fundamental causes in the design of society, and concluding radical/fundamental proposals of what should change etc... without naming nor insinuating specific politicians/leaders etc... Are subjects in the second class also taboo/censored in China? All the examples in these articles about chinese censorship relate to specific individuals or events, and not to ideology/normative/prescriptive statements of what humans may or may not desire/expect/demand from a system. For example would it be taboo or censored in China to discuss the following idea: No one created the world/China, so we are all equal co-owners of the world/China. Everybody and every company rents their locations (farmland, buildings, ...) The highest rent bidder becomes the accepted renter. And the sum of all rented is divided equally among all humans/citizens. This could happen in a decentralized fashion (I hate the term blockchain), using OpenStreetMap etc. Nobody is forced to live here or there, so there is freedom, and there is equal rights. If you get a job you can thus rent an above average place, Without a job you can afford an average place and food, and if you rent a small unwanted shack for a few years you have the budget to start your own enterprise, or perhaps party all life long if you are otherwise OK with your shack... Would this be considered taboo? Parasitism? Irrespective of our religion, no human created the sun (and the edible chemical energy it generates in plants), the earth, ... and all systems worldwide take claim of these resources, in order to make the puny little individual feel guilty about being born and having needs...
- paraditedc 8y ago
  It sounds a lot like communism so I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be censored.
  - DoctorOetker 8y ago
    that's kind of the question: would a decentralized version of libertarian communism or communist libertarianism be considered offensive since it doesn't tow the party line? it highlights to a communist that communism is different from oppression parading as an egalitarian society. or would it be the freedom part that would be considered offensive: that beijing can no longer dictate who does what work and lives where? EDIT: also consider Joseph Brodsky [0], everybody calls the USSR "communism", but he was accused of parasitism, so I am inclined that the idea of Provably Affordable Average Rent, i.e. we don't even need taxation to insure everyone has the right to roughly the average food, average housing, average minerals etc.. the rent that is spent is redistributed as "basic income", so by definition you get the average rent. I am inclined the idea is taboo in both the West and the East, and would have been in the USSR as well... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Brodsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Brodsky
sonnyblarney 8y ago
That's a neat analogy. That said, even in 'private' Chinese have all sorts of highly relevant information filtered. Such as the activities, possibly illegal, of their leaders.
ardy42 8y ago
> So basically in both cases, people are just hiding what they truly know/think in their minds instead of speaking them out. Every culture is going to have taboos and forbidden things. The important questions are who enforces them and why. > On the other hand, people in US enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically incorrect topics in public. People in the US enjoy the freedom to exchange almost all ideas in public, including politically incorrect topics. For some extreme examples, look at the "Dark Enlightenment" folks and racists like Richard Spencer. However, many people choose to not use that freedom because they wouldn't enjoy the experience of other people using their freedoms to personally reject them or to tell them that their ideas are stupid, wrong, bad, etc. That situation is only superficially comparable to Chinese censorship, and that comparison ignores the very important and fundamental differences.

graeme 8y ago

Do you know what you don't know though? People can freely find info on politically taboo topics if they want in the west. Whereas, do you know about the famine in the great leap forward? And it is widely known? I was talking to one chinese student who maintained that there was no censorship in china. She was surprised to learn that I, a foreigner, could not make a wechat account for my business. And she is well educated, has travelled abroad, etc

paraditedc 8y ago
People know things are being censored, well, as least of my age. There is a term and a meme for it on Chinese internet. You can Google-translate these pages that explain the term: https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/1882528841530933188.html https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/1882528841530933188.html https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B2%B3%E8%9F%B9/10292878 https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%B2%B3%E8%9F%B9/10292878
- graeme 8y ago
  That was a more extreme example. I expect most Chinese online know of censorship. But do you/they know about the government caused famine under Mao?
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    As far as I recall, everything else that is negative, except 1989, was taught in secondary school history class.
    - becege90 8y ago
      This is not correct. I grew up in China (Beijing to be more specific) and it is definitely not taught in school. All history I’ve learn casts China as having done everything right.
      - paraditedc 8y ago
        Were you taught using 人教版 or 北师大版 history textbook? I'm pretty sure 四人帮 and 大跃进 were inside 北师大版 and called a mistake. Well at least for my year. Maybe they changed it, or you didn't pay attention in class.
        becege90 8y ago
        It was quite a while ago so I don’t recall who made the book, I went to high school there more than 10 years ago. I used whichever books were standard. But if I remember correctly, they portraited Si Ren Bang as a group of four planning against the state, no fault was assigned to China or Mao.
        paraditedc 8y ago
        What about 大越进 or 文化大革命? At least in my textbook they were attributed as CCP and Mao's mistake.
- becege90 8y ago
  This is a censored answer /explanation of the term.
withhighprod 8y ago
My friends are criticizing /making fun of communist leaders all the time on WeChat group and no one get arrested or affected(in fact couple of us work for state owned bank and agency). We were joking once we are “aggressively attacking our socialist system”(猖狂的向社会主义制度进攻） Of course it’s another story if our wechat group grows to 500 people rather than 10 or we have a celebrity in this group. It’s all about the scale of the impact
thaumasiotes 8y ago
> People can freely find info on politically taboo topics if they want in the west. > Whereas, do you know about the famine in the great leap forward? And it is widely known? Yes, the famine is widely known. It's not considered secret at all. However, it is attributed to the weather, not to the government.

Simon_says 8y ago

That's interesting. Thanks for responding. Do you really think it's the same? My perspective is that there's such an incredible difference in degree as to be a difference in kind. Politically incorrect speech in the US may get you socially ostracized, but not literally jailed. And occasionally some people actually do it (look at any self-proclaimed Nazi or the Westboro Baptist Church). And criticizing the government or governance in the US is not politically incorrect; it's rather in vogue these days.

wybiral 8y ago

> On the other hand, people in US enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically incorrect topics in public. I can, and do, publicly express politically incorrect (and sometimes downright incorrect) opinions in public. That's why Twitter exists. The only thing stopping you is cultural norms (should you choose to accept and fear them).

paraditedc 8y ago
Post "XYZ is a nigger" or "I hate gays" on your Twitter and I will concede. Edit: Seems like I have crossed the line on HN. Moderators, feel free to moderate this comment. And apologies for unintentionally starting this long and boring thread.
- wybiral 8y ago
  It's not illegal just because Twitter doesn't allow it on their platform. You can run your own site, tattoo is on your face, say it to your friends... As long as you aren't directly inciting violence against others. That's really the only thing that's outright censored (genuine hate speech). But criticizing the government, laws, society, anything really, is totally legal and in fact constitutionally protected. Just don't hurt or threaten other people. > Edit: Seems like I have crossed the line on HN. Moderators, feel free to moderate this comment. Did you get an actual warning or are you trying to make a point about censorship?
- benrbray 8y ago
  You're right that the words we say can determine what other people think of us. But that's how language works. Most people, rightfully, don't want to associate with someone who invokes racial slurs. The point is that we are free to do so without fear of retaliation from the government. People are free to argue with each other and determine for themselves where to draw the lines.
- withhighprod 8y ago
  Wow so immediately downvoted, proof of your point Edit: just imagine how much trouble he’ll get if his true identity is ever revealed EDIT: no offense, he/she/it/the poster/BT

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

People talk about politically incorrect things all the time on the American internet. The government never censors it and there is no law against it. If you need evidence, just look at Trump’s tweet feed.

travisoneill1 8y ago

Yes you definitely have a point there. Your censorship is done centrally and explicitly by the government. Ours is done by the ever changing unwritten rules of sanctimonious mobs performing their offense rituals and the corporate advertisers who fear them. Which is worse is up for debate I guess.

JPKab 8y ago
Central governments can execute you. I'll let that speak for itself on "which is worse". I find these cases where modern, educated westerners are afraid to draw the obvious, self evident conclusion sad. You know which is worse, but you actually think someone else who disagrees is worthy of respect. They aren't. They are brainwashed. Until people wake up from this silly idea that there are infinite interpretations of reality that are all equal, this weak kind of statements will continue. Roseanne Barr didn't get arrested, imprisoned, or executed. The CCP fears and hates it's own people. I walked through an Ai Wei Wei exhibit 2 years ago. I was awestruck and moved to silence by his amazing work. Along with the aforementioned Nobel Laureate, these are individuals that are gifts to the human race. But their mere opinions threaten the CCP, and the last I heard, Weiwei had his studio burned and had been intermittently imprisoned. An amazing, once in a generation artist..... And you have the audacity to act as if there is an equivalency here. Wow.
- travisoneill1 8y ago
  Angry mobs can execute people too, and did so frequently in the US not so long ago. To a black man in the 1920's non governmental censorship was a deadly threat. Freedom of speech is not an interpretation of reality. It can't be proven or falsified. It is a religious belief, and not all societies share it. I do personally think that their system is worse in terms of magnitude of consequences, and that ours is worse in that its rules are completely arbitrary and unwritten.
  - wybiral 8y ago
    > Angry mobs can execute people too, and did so frequently in the US not so long ago. Yes, that's why we have government and law in an attempt to protect you from things like that. So the fact that some other government or law is intentionally doing that to other people doesn't seem like a rationalizing argument to me.

yters 8y ago

The curtailing of freedom of speech in America is more due to media platforms, social more or academia than the government's use of force. In America, no one is going to be placed in jail and have their organs harvested for speaking in public on some subject. I regularly stand outside abortion facilities with signs depicting graphic abortions (very politically incorrect), and do not get arrested. Even in the UK I would be arrested for such things.

amaccuish 8y ago
> I regularly stand outside abortion facilities with signs depicting graphic abortions May I ask, if it's ok, why do you do this?
- yters 8y ago
  To show people the obvious but ignored fact that abortion is the killing of babies.

andrepd 8y ago

That's the kind of relativisation that were this another medium and I would call it paid shilling. You cannot with any seriousness compare the de-normalisation of certain opinions, as it happened in the US in the past few decades, with the systematic, brutal, ubiquitous repression and censorship happening in China right now. China is one of the most un-free countries on earth in nearly every measure. Claiming that, eh sure, it is one way to do things and in the west they fire you if you say you hate niggers, so this is two flavours of pretty much the same thing, claiming this is the kind of gaslighting and propaganda that regimes such as China and Russia are trying to push on the West.

paraditedc 8y ago
> China is one of the most un-free countries on earth in nearly every measure. Sorry if it is too personal, but if you don't mind, I would like to know if you have actually visited China. In my opinion, only people who have actual experience living in China are qualified to make such statements.
- becege90 8y ago
  I have actually lived in China and can confirm that it is extremely unfree. I went to a good school in Beijing, and after arriving in the US, I realized they were teaching us basically propaganda in our Chinese, History, and Poli Sci classes. They even managed to sneak propaganda into our chemistry class, it’s nuts!
  - paraditedc 8y ago
    I agree that there's much propaganda in the textbook, but how was it related to "extremely unfree"?
  - thrwy_01 8y ago
    Could you please give us examples of propaganda in chemistry (or any other hard science) class?
- andrepd 8y ago

mc32 8y ago

I think there is a divide between people who think government (as well as private companies) should be in the business of managing offensive speech and people who believe in more liberal freedom of speech (with very narrow exceptions). One group is more aligned in this regard with socialism and the other with libertarianism.

JacobJans 8y ago

> On the other hand, people in US enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically incorrect topics in public. This is not true; there are many common instances of this happening, Every Single Day.

DoctorOetker 8y ago

I was wondering, and I think you may know the answer: Let me classify politically (potentially sensitive/incorrect) topics into 2 classes: 1) concerning concrete specific claims of history or what is happening or happened, 2) abstract discussion of properties of systems, designing "utopias", expressing general complaints and identifying their root/radix/fundamental causes in the design of society, and concluding radical/fundamental proposals of what should change etc... without naming nor insinuating specific politicians/leaders etc... Are subjects in the second class also taboo/censored in China? All the examples in these articles about chinese censorship relate to specific individuals or events, and not to ideology/normative/prescriptive statements of what humans may or may not desire/expect/demand from a system. For example would it be taboo or censored in China to discuss the following idea: No one created the world/China, so we are all equal co-owners of the world/China. Everybody and every company rents their locations (farmland, buildings, ...) The highest rent bidder becomes the accepted renter. And the sum of all rented is divided equally among all humans/citizens. This could happen in a decentralized fashion (I hate the term blockchain), using OpenStreetMap etc. Nobody is forced to live here or there, so there is freedom, and there is equal rights. If you get a job you can thus rent an above average place, Without a job you can afford an average place and food, and if you rent a small unwanted shack for a few years you have the budget to start your own enterprise, or perhaps party all life long if you are otherwise OK with your shack... Would this be considered taboo? Parasitism? Irrespective of our religion, no human created the sun (and the edible chemical energy it generates in plants), the earth, ... and all systems worldwide take claim of these resources, in order to make the puny little individual feel guilty about being born and having needs...

paraditedc 8y ago
It sounds a lot like communism so I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be censored.
- DoctorOetker 8y ago
  that's kind of the question: would a decentralized version of libertarian communism or communist libertarianism be considered offensive since it doesn't tow the party line? it highlights to a communist that communism is different from oppression parading as an egalitarian society. or would it be the freedom part that would be considered offensive: that beijing can no longer dictate who does what work and lives where? EDIT: also consider Joseph Brodsky [0], everybody calls the USSR "communism", but he was accused of parasitism, so I am inclined that the idea of Provably Affordable Average Rent, i.e. we don't even need taxation to insure everyone has the right to roughly the average food, average housing, average minerals etc.. the rent that is spent is redistributed as "basic income", so by definition you get the average rent. I am inclined the idea is taboo in both the West and the East, and would have been in the USSR as well... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Brodsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Brodsky

sonnyblarney 8y ago

That's a neat analogy. That said, even in 'private' Chinese have all sorts of highly relevant information filtered. Such as the activities, possibly illegal, of their leaders.

ardy42 8y ago

> So basically in both cases, people are just hiding what they truly know/think in their minds instead of speaking them out. Every culture is going to have taboos and forbidden things. The important questions are who enforces them and why. > On the other hand, people in US enjoy freedom to exchange ideas on whatever they want, except politically incorrect topics in public. People in the US enjoy the freedom to exchange almost all ideas in public, including politically incorrect topics. For some extreme examples, look at the "Dark Enlightenment" folks and racists like Richard Spencer. However, many people choose to not use that freedom because they wouldn't enjoy the experience of other people using their freedoms to personally reject them or to tell them that their ideas are stupid, wrong, bad, etc. That situation is only superficially comparable to Chinese censorship, and that comparison ignores the very important and fundamental differences.