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Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device with just things like facebook and youtube, you're going to be hard pressed to get

Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device with just things like facebook and youtube, you're going to be hard pressed to get people to install your app just to try it out. With a progressive web app if they like your app they can add it to their device home screen without installing via the app store and without using up space on their device. Also don't need to pay Apple $100 a year but you have the same benefits as a native app. Now with wasm you can even include native performance from a progressive web app.

scarface74 8y ago
On iOS you won’t get notifications or be able to run anything in the background. But if you are trying to start a business and the $100 a year you would have to pay to distribute your app will make or break you, you have bigger issues.
- noobiemcfoob 8y ago
  Too many applications abuse notifications and background processing anyway. If you need those features, you have to convince of far more value before I'll install a thing.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    If you want an iOS app not to “abuse” background processing, there is a setting that will disable the ability on an app by app basis. Of course you have granular control over notifications and how they are presented on a per app basis.
  - billmalarky 8y ago
    I'd wager you are not a great representation of the market that 99% of apps serve. Apps abuse those features because it works well for their business.
    - M2Ys4U 8y ago
      >Apps abuse those features because it works well for their business. In the short-run anyway...
      - reaperducer 8y ago
        This is true. I allow certain apps to use notifications because there are things that I want to be notified about. My card balance from the Starbucks app, or breaking news from the New York Times app. Both of those companies started abusing notifications. Their apps are no longer on my phones.
    - noobiemcfoob 8y ago
      > I'd wager you are not a great representation of the market that 99% of apps serve I'd wager no one is. Snapchat has 200 million users. There's some 4 billion people on the internet. Niches are niches, and no one serves everyone.
      - mktguru 8y ago
        I wish "no one" was my customer then I could get a $40B IPO serving everyone :)
- Jhndb 8y ago
  I think the point stands, and the article explicitely says "start with". Apps can come later in lots of cases. A personal example - I was hired to build the MVP Android app for a new greeting card company. 1 year later: It's been done for 6 months, no one's using it, no one wants to use it, everyone's using the web app.
- onion2k 8y ago
  On iOS you won’t get notifications or be able to run anything in the background. Ok, but what are the downsides?
  - orev 8y ago
    As a user notifications are a problem, but as an app developer they absolutely work to drive engagement, which is why so many apps use them. So if you’re trying to run a business that’s a pretty important thing.
    - username223 8y ago
      > As a user notifications are a problem, but as an app developer... So do you develop apps but not use them? I can't think of a way the hypocrisy isn't shocking here. "Do unto others" and all that.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        I’ve developed software all of my career that I personally have no use for. I develop software to pay my bills. We are talking about notifications, not killing puppies.
        username223 8y ago
        We're not talking about whether or not you are killing puppies -- I don't think you're a sadist. Just "make stuff you would want to use." Or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Or, if you prefer, "act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."
        JohnFen 8y ago
        > Just "make stuff you would want to use." So I should quit my job developing enterprise software because I don't personally have a use for enterprise software?
- asdjasldkjkljd 8y ago
  For now. PWAs keep improving. Give it a year. They're already basically fully-fledged apps on Android.
- simplecomplex 8y ago
  Service workers allow for push notifications and other background tasks.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    iOS doesn’t support push notifications for web pages.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      Are Safari push notifications desktop only? https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifi...
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Yep, desktop only https://www.izooto.com/blog/ios-push-notifications-safari https://www.izooto.com/blog/ios-push-notifications-safari And this might be why.... Web Push Notifications have clearly made difference in every marketing campaign it gets involved in.
- cschep 8y ago
  Using email as a notification service works in this case. The user probably gets a notification for new emails.. at least if they do they chose to. :)
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Email delivery has its own set of problems - mostly spam filters. Even when the email does reach the end user, most people get so many emails it’s easy to get lost in the noise.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      Using notifications to bypass spam filters speaks to the quality of the notifications you're sending. If your e-mail is important, people will find it. If your e-mail gets lost in the noise, then notification is probably not essential.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Getting caught in spam filters has little to do with whether the email is legitimate - just whether it is seen as a bulk email.
    - cschep 8y ago
      It does have issues when it comes to getting users to do something they don't want to do, but it is more than good enough to communicate with users about something they actively want to do. I have no interest in the former.
- tracker1 8y ago
  With cordova you can create a thin wrapper that can add those features you need, starting with a PWA and extending.
agildehaus 8y ago
To add a progressive web app to the home screen on iOS, doesn't the user have to use the share menu (and even then, it's buried a bit -- the user has to page the share options at least once to find it)? There's no way to display a prompt to add it, like with Chrome/Firefox on Android? That's how it was the last time I checked, and it was enough for my employer to say no.
- TrueGeek 8y ago
  Yes. There is no way to prompt the user and, to make it worse, it can only be done from Safari. If the user is using a browser from the app store (like Chrome) it can't be done at all.
- clarky07 8y ago
  Yeah it is massively worse user experience than installing an app from the app store. I feel like anyone suggesting it is better has an agenda of some sort. It's objectively worse in every way for the user. Suggesting the $100 is a barrier to entry is absolutely laughable. If you are going to talk about money talk about the 30% cut they take. That's really the only reasonable argument in favor of them.
y-c-o-m-b 8y ago
> Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device with just things like facebook and youtube. I don't even have those apps. If I did, my battery would be dead in a couple of hours. If I need to use those platforms, I do it through a web browser and usually I use a different browser (e.g. duckduckgo) isolated from my other browsing habits.
- fireattack 8y ago
  duckduckgo has a browser now?
  - y-c-o-m-b 8y ago
    Pick your poison: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.duckduckgo.mobile.android&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.duckduckgo... https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/duckduckgo-privacy-browser/id663592361?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/duckduckgo-privacy-browser/i...
    - funkydata 8y ago
      I did not know they made one. Thanks!
- funkydata 8y ago
  Does Duckduckgo makes a browser now? Or do you mean that like most of non geeky folks you access websites not by typing an url in the address bar of a browser but instead by going through a search engine (in this instance Duckduckgo)?
jklinger410 8y ago
>if they like your app they can add it to their device home screen without installing via the app store and without using up space on their device As far as I'm concerned, until evidence to the contrary is provided, most people either don't do this or know how. Relying on a pinned app for smart phones is a good way to kill your startup. >you're going to be hard pressed to get people to install your app just to try it out In fact, the statistics prove[1] that this is false. Most app installs are to try it out, and promptly delete it. Most users will delete your app shortly after installing it. Informed opinions are nice to share, uninformed ones not so much. [1]https://www.emarketer.com/content/most-apps-get-deleted-within-a-week https://www.emarketer.com/content/most-apps-get-deleted-with...
- ryancodes 8y ago
  > Most users will delete your app shortly after installing it. Which is why it is so crucial to focus on the core utility of the app. If the app is fun to use, great. But the apps that stick around provide services that are essential to the user.
- reificator 8y ago
  > >you're going to be hard pressed to get people to install your app just to try it out > In fact, the statistics prove[1] that this is false. Most app installs are to try it out, and promptly delete it. Most users will delete your app shortly after installing it. I'm really not following how this disproves what was being said. They were saying it's difficult to get people to even install for a test run, and you're saying most installs are test runs. There's nothing mutually exclusive about those two statements. > Informed opinions are nice to share, uninformed ones not so much. What a pompous response to make when you're not actually falsifying anything in their post.
  - jklinger410 8y ago
    >They were saying it's difficult to get people to even install for a test run How is it difficult to get someone to install something for a test run when like 90% of app installs are test runs? So you're saying it's difficult to get someone to install your app at all, and that has nothing to do with your product or your marketing, but it has something to do with the technology? And the PWA experience of pinning things to your home screen, which we have absolutely no reason to believe is widely done, is a better option? There are 200 billion some odd app installs per year (primarily for test runs), there are ??? mobile PWA app home screen pins per year. I'd like to see you try and support OPs claim rather than argue about my comment.
deleted 8y ago
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endorphone 8y ago
We've been hearing the same pitch for literally years. Heck, I've made some of them myself: "This is it, people! Native apps have been rendered unnecessary!" No PWA competes with a native experience. Not performance wise, not usability wise, and ultimately for the developer not even development wise. It may still make a lot of sense, and there are a lot of arguments for web apps, but the enthusiasm in this discussion seems disconnected from reality. Indeed, right now we're seeing a big uptick in Instant Apps on Android -- go to a webpage and it actually loads a native app -- and I fully expect the same to appear on iOS. There is a bit of app exhaustion, though I'd say it's much more significant on Android where users have been taught that it's user beware. It certainly isn't a technical limit, though.
- egeozcan 8y ago
  > (paraphrasing) No PWA competes with a native experience even development wise I'm personally too spoiled by the React debugging experience, and I'm saying this as a developer who mainly does C#. On the other hand, I know many developers who can't stand a line of JavaScript. The answer is here a huge "it depends, really".
  - chaostheory 8y ago
    For those who can't stand javascript, typescript was made for you
    - stephenhuey 8y ago
      ...and for those who want even more improvement over JS than just TS, there's Dart in the Flutter world.
      - chaostheory 8y ago
        Why Dart instead of Typescript? How well does it integrate with npm modules? i.e. do I have to reinvent a lot of wheels compared to using Typescript?
have_faith 8y ago
> With a progressive web app if they like your app they can add it to their device home screen Does anyone even know they can do that? I've never seen anyone do it "in the wild". Would love to see any stats around usage of pwa's added to home screen.
- timdavila 8y ago
  I run a PWA and can track this based on the "standalone" property. But what's more telling is customer requests. It's a confusing request that it seems like many potential customers haven't seen before. Lots of people ask me to "just put it in the app store" despite having an FAQ with instructions on how to add to the home screen. Many more say they will become customers "when you have an app" Because of this, I'm working on making my UI more app like and using Cordova to publish it to app stores. edit: My app is still pretty small but the percentage of logged in users who have ever loaded from the PWA is < 5%
  - TomK32 8y ago
    Users always have to be educated, whether it's PWA or how to pronounce the @ symbol a mere 20 years ago.
- plexicle 8y ago
  Chrome on Android will show a banner to add it to your home screen.
  - timdavila 8y ago
    True, the situation on Android is much better than iOS. Also after you do this, you get an icon in your app drawer and not just the homescreen.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      iOS doesn’t have an app drawer, so I’m not quite sure where you’re going with your comparison…
burtonator 8y ago
PWAs are becoming reasonable for mobile devices and could really help with some apps for initial distribution and usage. I might implement the first version of mobile reading within Polar (https://getpolarized.io/ https://getpolarized.io/) by using a PWA. The general idea is to have both a PWA and a native app. The PWA gets the users addicted and then you can have an 'install app' button within the PWA. If your app is insanely complicated it's possible to have your app as just a PWA on steroids (though not always straight forward). We're using Firebase (just wrote up a post about it here): https://getpolarized.io/2019/01/03/building-cloud-sync-on-google-firebase.html https://getpolarized.io/2019/01/03/building-cloud-sync-on-go... ... and the cool thing about Firebase is that there are SDKs for basically all platforms with really solid mobile support.
scarface74 8y ago
Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device with just things like facebook and youtube, you're going to be hard pressed to get people to install your app just to try it out. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/01/app-store-caps-record-breaking-2018-with-blockbuster-holiday-week/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/01/app-store-caps-record...
- jdietrich 8y ago
  The list of top grossing apps paints a rather different and rather unflattering picture of the app store economy. https://www.apple.com/itunes/charts/top-grossing-apps/ https://www.apple.com/itunes/charts/top-grossing-apps/
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I agree completely. What’s surprising is that Spotify is still a top grossing app even though they haven’t allowed new in app subscriptions for a year or two. I guess those are legacy subscriptions. But on the other hand, that also goes against the narrative that PWA’s will replace native apps anytime soon. Most of the apps on the list: 1. Require some type of DRM (streaming media) 2. Take advantage of in app consumables like games where the immediacy of being able to capture the whales through in app purchases make sense. 3. Need the performance of native apps.
ransom1538 8y ago
After years of experience: 0) Native means you get notifications: APNS, GCM. 1) If you don't go native, you go SEO. SEO is hard.
- NightlyDev 8y ago
  Web has had notifications for years too.
  - jurmous 8y ago
    Not on iOS. https://caniuse.com/#feat=notifications https://caniuse.com/#feat=notifications
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - rorykoehler 8y ago
    I have never clicked yes to allow web notifications in my life. I have only once added a site as an icon on my mobile. The whole premise of this article is false. The real answer to whether to start with a site or an app is it depends. At Bibimapp we have an app [0] requiring sign up etc (launching beta next week) and a related site which is free to browse which provides value but approaching the problem space from a different angle. The site is essentially the top of the funnel. [0] https://bibimapp.com/ https://bibimapp.com/
  - ransom1538 8y ago
    "Web has had notifications for years too." Yeah. But people don't use desktops anymore.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      So what are all those laptops on every coffee shop I go to?
- menckenjr 8y ago
  Native means you also get background processing and access to things like geolocation and camera feed w/o needing a plugin.
BucketSort 8y ago
Can you provide data to substantiate your claims? I'd truly like to know if this is true, because my intuition and experience tell me the opposite. People like downloading and trying out new apps. I also disagree with the premise of this post. Many people exclusively use their phones and would never utilize a web version of an app.
- tracker1 8y ago
  I think it depends... it's probably bias to more technical users vs moms, dads and kids generally. I know I'm far less inclined to use a native app for something new. I also hate when I can't do updates from my desktop. I use linux, windows and mac regularly. Of course via cordova, it's easy enough to create a thin wrapper and add a few bits for notifications and better capture integration (if you need photos/video, etc). Since I'm mostly doing react these days, I'd consider react-native a natural next step.
wvenable 8y ago
> Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device This argument has been given a few times here. But I question whether web applications are a solution. Aren't these just more applications that people are overwhelmed with but harder to find and use? If you've got a brilliant new app (web or mobile) I'm still fatigued either way. The mental effort is the same. Saying the mobile apps are "maxed out" seems to me to apply to web apps in just the same way.
- Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
  I think they were referring to RAM or storage space rather than human fatigue or mental effort, although I'm not a native English speaker so I may be misinterpreting. Indeed, there are many low-end smartphones that run out of storage space after one or two years even without installing anything, just with the automatic updates of the preinstalled apps (Facebook is a major offender here, why does their app grow more and more?). Being forced to install an app to use a service when you are in this situation is highly frustrating.
  - rorykoehler 8y ago
    What year are we in? I've got a $200 phone with 128gb storage and 4gb ram. It will be a long time before I can max this out if at all.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
      Not everyone buys a new phone frequently, and not everyone can or will spend $200 on a smartphone without a second thought, especially at the global scale. Smartphones are getting better and hopefully this problem will be irrelevant in a few years, but I still know plenty of people for whom it's still very real at the moment.
      - rorykoehler 8y ago
        Sure, I was part of a startup designing apps for emerging markets and I understand the restrictions but I think these restrictions changed somewhat for phones bought from 2018 on. I just returned from 2 weeks in India and it was common to see people in the streets with ~$200 phones
beckler 8y ago
I think PWAs are still considered more of a novelty. If they really ever catch on, I could see where apple might require you to start hosting some kind of cross-signed cert or something that you can only get from Apple to install/use them.
- choward 8y ago
  > If they really ever catch on, I could see where apple might require you to start hosting some kind of cross-signed cert or something that you can only get from Apple to install/use them. And you would find this acceptable? I would find this appalling. Apple can charge for the App Store because over the overhead. It hosts the servers that have to transfer the apps. It runs an App Store to help with discoverability. It also maintains the API developers use. In the case of PWAs, none of these are true. There is no overhead for running an App Store for Apple. I could see there being a fee to be in the App Store. That should be up to the developer though. If you are doing the work of getting people to install the app yourself, you owe them nothing. In Apple's defense, they do have to do the work of building in PWA support to iOS/Safari. But if you are paying over $1,000 for a device you better damn well be able to install a PWA.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Microsoft does it, if the PWAs are signed, they get full access to UWP APIs, just like any other native app.
Const-me 8y ago
That's only the case for useless apps. Try creating a useful one. For example, here's my old hobby project, now open source, that got more than 100k installs with zero marketing: https://github.com/Const-me/SkyFM https://github.com/Const-me/SkyFM
hiccuphippo 8y ago
I've never added a PWA to my device. How do you find them? I suppose they don't get added to the store so no way to search for them there. Do they show some popup when you visit their site? Is there some directory of PWAs?
ghostly_s 8y ago
What does "maxed out on apps on their device" mean?
JohnFen 8y ago
> With a progressive web app if they like your app they can add it to their device home screen without installing via the app store and without using up space on their device. Just no. As near as I can tell, PWAs are worse than apps from a security point of view. The odds approach zero that I'd ever dare to use one.

scarface74 8y ago

On iOS you won’t get notifications or be able to run anything in the background. But if you are trying to start a business and the $100 a year you would have to pay to distribute your app will make or break you, you have bigger issues.

noobiemcfoob 8y ago
Too many applications abuse notifications and background processing anyway. If you need those features, you have to convince of far more value before I'll install a thing.
- scarface74 8y ago
  If you want an iOS app not to “abuse” background processing, there is a setting that will disable the ability on an app by app basis. Of course you have granular control over notifications and how they are presented on a per app basis.
- billmalarky 8y ago
  I'd wager you are not a great representation of the market that 99% of apps serve. Apps abuse those features because it works well for their business.
  - M2Ys4U 8y ago
    >Apps abuse those features because it works well for their business. In the short-run anyway...
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      This is true. I allow certain apps to use notifications because there are things that I want to be notified about. My card balance from the Starbucks app, or breaking news from the New York Times app. Both of those companies started abusing notifications. Their apps are no longer on my phones.
  - noobiemcfoob 8y ago
    > I'd wager you are not a great representation of the market that 99% of apps serve I'd wager no one is. Snapchat has 200 million users. There's some 4 billion people on the internet. Niches are niches, and no one serves everyone.
    - mktguru 8y ago
      I wish "no one" was my customer then I could get a $40B IPO serving everyone :)
Jhndb 8y ago
I think the point stands, and the article explicitely says "start with". Apps can come later in lots of cases. A personal example - I was hired to build the MVP Android app for a new greeting card company. 1 year later: It's been done for 6 months, no one's using it, no one wants to use it, everyone's using the web app.
onion2k 8y ago
On iOS you won’t get notifications or be able to run anything in the background. Ok, but what are the downsides?
- orev 8y ago
  As a user notifications are a problem, but as an app developer they absolutely work to drive engagement, which is why so many apps use them. So if you’re trying to run a business that’s a pretty important thing.
  - username223 8y ago
    > As a user notifications are a problem, but as an app developer... So do you develop apps but not use them? I can't think of a way the hypocrisy isn't shocking here. "Do unto others" and all that.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      I’ve developed software all of my career that I personally have no use for. I develop software to pay my bills. We are talking about notifications, not killing puppies.
      - username223 8y ago
        We're not talking about whether or not you are killing puppies -- I don't think you're a sadist. Just "make stuff you would want to use." Or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Or, if you prefer, "act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."
        JohnFen 8y ago
        > Just "make stuff you would want to use." So I should quit my job developing enterprise software because I don't personally have a use for enterprise software?
asdjasldkjkljd 8y ago
For now. PWAs keep improving. Give it a year. They're already basically fully-fledged apps on Android.
simplecomplex 8y ago
Service workers allow for push notifications and other background tasks.
- scarface74 8y ago
  iOS doesn’t support push notifications for web pages.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Are Safari push notifications desktop only? https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifi...
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Yep, desktop only https://www.izooto.com/blog/ios-push-notifications-safari https://www.izooto.com/blog/ios-push-notifications-safari And this might be why.... Web Push Notifications have clearly made difference in every marketing campaign it gets involved in.
cschep 8y ago
Using email as a notification service works in this case. The user probably gets a notification for new emails.. at least if they do they chose to. :)
- scarface74 8y ago
  Email delivery has its own set of problems - mostly spam filters. Even when the email does reach the end user, most people get so many emails it’s easy to get lost in the noise.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Using notifications to bypass spam filters speaks to the quality of the notifications you're sending. If your e-mail is important, people will find it. If your e-mail gets lost in the noise, then notification is probably not essential.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Getting caught in spam filters has little to do with whether the email is legitimate - just whether it is seen as a bulk email.
  - cschep 8y ago
    It does have issues when it comes to getting users to do something they don't want to do, but it is more than good enough to communicate with users about something they actively want to do. I have no interest in the former.
tracker1 8y ago
With cordova you can create a thin wrapper that can add those features you need, starting with a PWA and extending.

agildehaus 8y ago

To add a progressive web app to the home screen on iOS, doesn't the user have to use the share menu (and even then, it's buried a bit -- the user has to page the share options at least once to find it)? There's no way to display a prompt to add it, like with Chrome/Firefox on Android? That's how it was the last time I checked, and it was enough for my employer to say no.

TrueGeek 8y ago
Yes. There is no way to prompt the user and, to make it worse, it can only be done from Safari. If the user is using a browser from the app store (like Chrome) it can't be done at all.
clarky07 8y ago
Yeah it is massively worse user experience than installing an app from the app store. I feel like anyone suggesting it is better has an agenda of some sort. It's objectively worse in every way for the user. Suggesting the $100 is a barrier to entry is absolutely laughable. If you are going to talk about money talk about the 30% cut they take. That's really the only reasonable argument in favor of them.

y-c-o-m-b 8y ago

> Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device with just things like facebook and youtube. I don't even have those apps. If I did, my battery would be dead in a couple of hours. If I need to use those platforms, I do it through a web browser and usually I use a different browser (e.g. duckduckgo) isolated from my other browsing habits.

fireattack 8y ago
duckduckgo has a browser now?
- y-c-o-m-b 8y ago
  Pick your poison: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.duckduckgo.mobile.android&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.duckduckgo... https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/duckduckgo-privacy-browser/id663592361?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/duckduckgo-privacy-browser/i...
  - funkydata 8y ago
    I did not know they made one. Thanks!
funkydata 8y ago
Does Duckduckgo makes a browser now? Or do you mean that like most of non geeky folks you access websites not by typing an url in the address bar of a browser but instead by going through a search engine (in this instance Duckduckgo)?

jklinger410 8y ago

>if they like your app they can add it to their device home screen without installing via the app store and without using up space on their device As far as I'm concerned, until evidence to the contrary is provided, most people either don't do this or know how. Relying on a pinned app for smart phones is a good way to kill your startup. >you're going to be hard pressed to get people to install your app just to try it out In fact, the statistics prove[1] that this is false. Most app installs are to try it out, and promptly delete it. Most users will delete your app shortly after installing it. Informed opinions are nice to share, uninformed ones not so much. [1]https://www.emarketer.com/content/most-apps-get-deleted-within-a-week https://www.emarketer.com/content/most-apps-get-deleted-with...

ryancodes 8y ago
> Most users will delete your app shortly after installing it. Which is why it is so crucial to focus on the core utility of the app. If the app is fun to use, great. But the apps that stick around provide services that are essential to the user.
reificator 8y ago
> >you're going to be hard pressed to get people to install your app just to try it out > In fact, the statistics prove[1] that this is false. Most app installs are to try it out, and promptly delete it. Most users will delete your app shortly after installing it. I'm really not following how this disproves what was being said. They were saying it's difficult to get people to even install for a test run, and you're saying most installs are test runs. There's nothing mutually exclusive about those two statements. > Informed opinions are nice to share, uninformed ones not so much. What a pompous response to make when you're not actually falsifying anything in their post.
- jklinger410 8y ago
  >They were saying it's difficult to get people to even install for a test run How is it difficult to get someone to install something for a test run when like 90% of app installs are test runs? So you're saying it's difficult to get someone to install your app at all, and that has nothing to do with your product or your marketing, but it has something to do with the technology? And the PWA experience of pinning things to your home screen, which we have absolutely no reason to believe is widely done, is a better option? There are 200 billion some odd app installs per year (primarily for test runs), there are ??? mobile PWA app home screen pins per year. I'd like to see you try and support OPs claim rather than argue about my comment.

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endorphone 8y ago

We've been hearing the same pitch for literally years. Heck, I've made some of them myself: "This is it, people! Native apps have been rendered unnecessary!" No PWA competes with a native experience. Not performance wise, not usability wise, and ultimately for the developer not even development wise. It may still make a lot of sense, and there are a lot of arguments for web apps, but the enthusiasm in this discussion seems disconnected from reality. Indeed, right now we're seeing a big uptick in Instant Apps on Android -- go to a webpage and it actually loads a native app -- and I fully expect the same to appear on iOS. There is a bit of app exhaustion, though I'd say it's much more significant on Android where users have been taught that it's user beware. It certainly isn't a technical limit, though.

egeozcan 8y ago
> (paraphrasing) No PWA competes with a native experience even development wise I'm personally too spoiled by the React debugging experience, and I'm saying this as a developer who mainly does C#. On the other hand, I know many developers who can't stand a line of JavaScript. The answer is here a huge "it depends, really".
- chaostheory 8y ago
  For those who can't stand javascript, typescript was made for you
  - stephenhuey 8y ago
    ...and for those who want even more improvement over JS than just TS, there's Dart in the Flutter world.
    - chaostheory 8y ago
      Why Dart instead of Typescript? How well does it integrate with npm modules? i.e. do I have to reinvent a lot of wheels compared to using Typescript?

have_faith 8y ago

> With a progressive web app if they like your app they can add it to their device home screen Does anyone even know they can do that? I've never seen anyone do it "in the wild". Would love to see any stats around usage of pwa's added to home screen.

timdavila 8y ago
I run a PWA and can track this based on the "standalone" property. But what's more telling is customer requests. It's a confusing request that it seems like many potential customers haven't seen before. Lots of people ask me to "just put it in the app store" despite having an FAQ with instructions on how to add to the home screen. Many more say they will become customers "when you have an app" Because of this, I'm working on making my UI more app like and using Cordova to publish it to app stores. edit: My app is still pretty small but the percentage of logged in users who have ever loaded from the PWA is < 5%
- TomK32 8y ago
  Users always have to be educated, whether it's PWA or how to pronounce the @ symbol a mere 20 years ago.
plexicle 8y ago
Chrome on Android will show a banner to add it to your home screen.
- timdavila 8y ago
  True, the situation on Android is much better than iOS. Also after you do this, you get an icon in your app drawer and not just the homescreen.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    iOS doesn’t have an app drawer, so I’m not quite sure where you’re going with your comparison…

burtonator 8y ago

PWAs are becoming reasonable for mobile devices and could really help with some apps for initial distribution and usage. I might implement the first version of mobile reading within Polar (https://getpolarized.io/ https://getpolarized.io/) by using a PWA. The general idea is to have both a PWA and a native app. The PWA gets the users addicted and then you can have an 'install app' button within the PWA. If your app is insanely complicated it's possible to have your app as just a PWA on steroids (though not always straight forward). We're using Firebase (just wrote up a post about it here): https://getpolarized.io/2019/01/03/building-cloud-sync-on-google-firebase.html https://getpolarized.io/2019/01/03/building-cloud-sync-on-go... ... and the cool thing about Firebase is that there are SDKs for basically all platforms with really solid mobile support.

scarface74 8y ago

Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device with just things like facebook and youtube, you're going to be hard pressed to get people to install your app just to try it out. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/01/app-store-caps-record-breaking-2018-with-blockbuster-holiday-week/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/01/app-store-caps-record...

jdietrich 8y ago
The list of top grossing apps paints a rather different and rather unflattering picture of the app store economy. https://www.apple.com/itunes/charts/top-grossing-apps/ https://www.apple.com/itunes/charts/top-grossing-apps/
- scarface74 8y ago
  I agree completely. What’s surprising is that Spotify is still a top grossing app even though they haven’t allowed new in app subscriptions for a year or two. I guess those are legacy subscriptions. But on the other hand, that also goes against the narrative that PWA’s will replace native apps anytime soon. Most of the apps on the list: 1. Require some type of DRM (streaming media) 2. Take advantage of in app consumables like games where the immediacy of being able to capture the whales through in app purchases make sense. 3. Need the performance of native apps.

ransom1538 8y ago

After years of experience: 0) Native means you get notifications: APNS, GCM. 1) If you don't go native, you go SEO. SEO is hard.

NightlyDev 8y ago
Web has had notifications for years too.
- jurmous 8y ago
  Not on iOS. https://caniuse.com/#feat=notifications https://caniuse.com/#feat=notifications
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  I have never clicked yes to allow web notifications in my life. I have only once added a site as an icon on my mobile. The whole premise of this article is false. The real answer to whether to start with a site or an app is it depends. At Bibimapp we have an app [0] requiring sign up etc (launching beta next week) and a related site which is free to browse which provides value but approaching the problem space from a different angle. The site is essentially the top of the funnel. [0] https://bibimapp.com/ https://bibimapp.com/
- ransom1538 8y ago
  "Web has had notifications for years too." Yeah. But people don't use desktops anymore.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    So what are all those laptops on every coffee shop I go to?
menckenjr 8y ago
Native means you also get background processing and access to things like geolocation and camera feed w/o needing a plugin.

BucketSort 8y ago

Can you provide data to substantiate your claims? I'd truly like to know if this is true, because my intuition and experience tell me the opposite. People like downloading and trying out new apps. I also disagree with the premise of this post. Many people exclusively use their phones and would never utilize a web version of an app.

tracker1 8y ago
I think it depends... it's probably bias to more technical users vs moms, dads and kids generally. I know I'm far less inclined to use a native app for something new. I also hate when I can't do updates from my desktop. I use linux, windows and mac regularly. Of course via cordova, it's easy enough to create a thin wrapper and add a few bits for notifications and better capture integration (if you need photos/video, etc). Since I'm mostly doing react these days, I'd consider react-native a natural next step.

wvenable 8y ago

> Given the fact that most people are already maxed out on apps on their device This argument has been given a few times here. But I question whether web applications are a solution. Aren't these just more applications that people are overwhelmed with but harder to find and use? If you've got a brilliant new app (web or mobile) I'm still fatigued either way. The mental effort is the same. Saying the mobile apps are "maxed out" seems to me to apply to web apps in just the same way.

Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
I think they were referring to RAM or storage space rather than human fatigue or mental effort, although I'm not a native English speaker so I may be misinterpreting. Indeed, there are many low-end smartphones that run out of storage space after one or two years even without installing anything, just with the automatic updates of the preinstalled apps (Facebook is a major offender here, why does their app grow more and more?). Being forced to install an app to use a service when you are in this situation is highly frustrating.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  What year are we in? I've got a $200 phone with 128gb storage and 4gb ram. It will be a long time before I can max this out if at all.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
    Not everyone buys a new phone frequently, and not everyone can or will spend $200 on a smartphone without a second thought, especially at the global scale. Smartphones are getting better and hopefully this problem will be irrelevant in a few years, but I still know plenty of people for whom it's still very real at the moment.
    - rorykoehler 8y ago
      Sure, I was part of a startup designing apps for emerging markets and I understand the restrictions but I think these restrictions changed somewhat for phones bought from 2018 on. I just returned from 2 weeks in India and it was common to see people in the streets with ~$200 phones

beckler 8y ago

I think PWAs are still considered more of a novelty. If they really ever catch on, I could see where apple might require you to start hosting some kind of cross-signed cert or something that you can only get from Apple to install/use them.

choward 8y ago
> If they really ever catch on, I could see where apple might require you to start hosting some kind of cross-signed cert or something that you can only get from Apple to install/use them. And you would find this acceptable? I would find this appalling. Apple can charge for the App Store because over the overhead. It hosts the servers that have to transfer the apps. It runs an App Store to help with discoverability. It also maintains the API developers use. In the case of PWAs, none of these are true. There is no overhead for running an App Store for Apple. I could see there being a fee to be in the App Store. That should be up to the developer though. If you are doing the work of getting people to install the app yourself, you owe them nothing. In Apple's defense, they do have to do the work of building in PWA support to iOS/Safari. But if you are paying over $1,000 for a device you better damn well be able to install a PWA.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Microsoft does it, if the PWAs are signed, they get full access to UWP APIs, just like any other native app.

Const-me 8y ago

That's only the case for useless apps. Try creating a useful one. For example, here's my old hobby project, now open source, that got more than 100k installs with zero marketing: https://github.com/Const-me/SkyFM https://github.com/Const-me/SkyFM

hiccuphippo 8y ago

I've never added a PWA to my device. How do you find them? I suppose they don't get added to the store so no way to search for them there. Do they show some popup when you visit their site? Is there some directory of PWAs?

ghostly_s 8y ago

What does "maxed out on apps on their device" mean?

JohnFen 8y ago

> With a progressive web app if they like your app they can add it to their device home screen without installing via the app store and without using up space on their device. Just no. As near as I can tell, PWAs are worse than apps from a security point of view. The odds approach zero that I'd ever dare to use one.