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Singapore activist found guilty of hosting ‘illegal assembly’ via Skype
- hkt 8y agoThis the country my country's idiot politicians want to model us after, post-Brexit. I despair.
- OscarCunningham 8y agoIt's possible to imitate their trade policy without copying their lack of civil rights.
- hkt 8y agoThe main proponents of doing this are a guy who bought a water cannon to use on protestors in London, a man so Catholic he'd vote down abortion, and a bunch of people who are mostly OK with letting people who are fleeing war drown in the Mediterranean. I do not hold out much hope.
- nbevans 8y agoThey use water cannon in the rest of Europe, and even tear gas. What's the problem? They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 - and that is why they purchased some. Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. He will be praying they aren't ever needed.
- pjc50 8y agoBackground on this, a fairly reasonable summary from the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33538171 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33538171 Theresa May believed that escalating to water cannon with their potential risks would further damage relations between the police and the public in mainland Britain.
- EliRivers 8y agoThe government specifically chose not to authorise their use. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-statement-on-water-cannon https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-...
- toyg 8y agoAs a foreigner, the UK police is widely admired for their restraint. Tactics like kettling, for all their drawbacks, are absolutely preferable to the alternatives seen elsewhere in Europe. It’s one of those things, like the lack of ID cards and centuries-long administrative continuity, that really set the UK apart from most other places and made it a beacon of pragmatic liberalism. Wish for “normalization” at your peril.
- hkt 8y agoYes, people don't seem to realise that we have a policing model that is probably among the best in the world. Better to kettle people occasionally than blind them with watercannon and tear gas - or as the Americans seem to prefer, shoot them in the back while they run away.
- dang 8y agoWe ban accounts that use HN for nationalistic flamewar, so could you please not post like this again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hkt 8y agoIn the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Some other countries could learn by our example. The reason he "selfishly" sold them, by the way, was because they were in poor condition, cost more to keep than to sell, and were actually illegal to use. It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging.
- nbevans 8y agoIs the condescension really needed?
- nailer 8y ago> In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Are we interested in letting our own people be attacked? If people can loot and burn without repercussion, do you think they'll be overly concerned with bashing you or your loved ones to steal your phone? How close was your home to the riots? > It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging. This was unnecessarily personal and essentially meaningless - the other poster could say the same thing about you.
- pjc50 8y agoUltimately there were serious repercussions: thousands of people were arrested and jailed. https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-defendants-court-sentencing https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-d... (The policing by consent issue is very real, though. Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night but has long consequences.)
- nailer 8y ago> Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night You are assuming meeting riots in any way is escalating them. The riots escalated precisely because they were not met with a response. (as a side note, although I'm not disputing anything specific in the link, The Guardian is not an objective source for riot related information - The Guardian was found to have misled the public and forced to apologise by the PCC for the misleading 'Unarmed' Duggan headline)
- twic 8y ago> They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 What? The whole deal with the riots [1] is that they were like flashmobs, they'd pop up at random. Unless you have a water cannon on every street corner, they'd spend all their time chasing round after the villains. > Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. That is a truly bizarre - and, let's be honest, entirely partisan - way to lay the blame. [1] lootings really
- nailer 8y ago> The main proponents of doing this are a guy who bought a water cannon to use on protesters in London Boris Johnson purchased a cannon to use on rioters - the vast majority of which had no concern about the police killing the armed drug dealer in question. Water cannons are effective for use in riots, as we've seen recently in Paris. My main concern is Sadiq Kahn who sold them, leaving us again vulnerable in a repeat incident. > a bunch of people who are mostly OK with letting people who are fleeing war drown in the Mediterranean Who is that? The vast majority of people entering the UK without visas do so via Calais, and the vast majority of those are economic migrants.
- EliRivers 8y agoGiven that Theresa May specifically did not give permission to use them, what would you rather Khan did with them? Given that they can't be deployed against rioters. I understand they required work to be done on them anyway, and would have incurred ongoing maintenance and storage costs; spending more money on weapons that specifically cannot be used seems like a poor choice. Or were you hoping that Khan would ask again and be told that he could use them after all?
- nailer 8y agoI'd rather May gave permission to use them. Kahn should have kept them regardless and assumed authorisation would come when the next major event occurs - rather than praying it doesn't.
- paleogizmo 8y agoSingapore does have many positives (ease of forming a business, low crime, low corruption, a cost-effective single-payer healthcare system, good urban planning, taxing car ownership as an externality). I don't see how these go hand-in-hand with authoritarian government.
- nostrebored 8y agoOh no! A country that's successfully modernized in 50 years! The horror
- hkt 8y agoI'd rather be in a country where I get a meaningful vote. The downvotes I'm receiving are indicative that there is a contingent of unpleasant faux-libertarians, populists, and other assorted anti-democratic trolls and scumbags on HN. Edit: also, the EU has done a better job of modernising some of the biggest and oldest states the world has ever known over the last 50 years, and has done so at the behest of democracy.
- Nasrudith 8y agoI have snarked before the best way to get rid of dictatorship brigades with a minimum of effort is to start posting references to their Tiananmen Squares - very awkward facts they don't want disseminated and may have auto-blocked.
- hkt 8y agoYou may be a literal genius. Great idea.
- nostrebored 8y agoRight, that's why large swathes of Europe face 40% youth unemployment, higher than where I live in Africa, right?
- ekianjo 8y agoIm not sure I understand the story. He was judged for illegal assembly regardless of the Skype call, as far as I understand. Anyone else can comment?
- ahje 8y ago"“The law says that any event which is open to the public, and is ’cause related’, requires a permit when a foreigner speaks." There was a foreign speaker participating over Skype. As idiotic as the law seems to be, I do believe the case is rather clear. The foreigner did indeed speak at the conference, which was public. The fact that Skype was used as a medium to facilitate that doesn't really change anything.
- tomjen3 8y agoHe did not. Some electrons were converted into photons of different frequencies mostly in the human visual spectrum, and some electrons were converted into other frequences in the spectrum that can be converted into a meaning by a human. If I rant against Disney land with the dealt penalty, and the video is later played there, I have not given a speech there.
- ahje 8y ago> Some electrons were converted into photons of different frequencies mostly in the human visual spectrum, and some electrons were converted into other frequences in the spectrum that can be converted into a meaning by a human. If someone live-streams a keynote and a Q/A session as a part of an event, then the person speaking is obviously participating. Please note, that I have no problems with remote participation of events. It just happens that our favourite south-east asian police state requires a permit for such events. Our opinions on whether that law is a good one or not has nothing to do with the medium chosen for the event.
- metildaa 8y agoHe had a gathering on private property in a mall, where 100 people showed up and listened to a Hong King Activist talk for 2 hours. Sounds quite like a conference IMO. The right to free assembly isn't a thing in Singapore apparently.
- saagarjha 8y ago> In Singapore, it is a criminal offence under the Public Order Act to organize or participate in a public assembly without a police permit. :(
- pjc50 8y agoIt's a police state. A very neat and tidy one, but one with severe penalties; one of the few places still using corporal punishment officially.
- pishpash 8y agoYou'll all be living in a police state eventually, if you do not already live in one (or know you do).
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sjcsjc 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Penalty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Pena...
- gioele 8y agoI suppose that organizing or participating in a public assembly without a police permit is illegal more or less everywhere in the world. The question is whether "the Internet" is a public place or not. Case in point: Italy. A) According to article 18 of the consolidated act on public security (TULPS) it is mandatory to inform the police whenever a gathering is organized in a "public place" [1]. B) the Corte di cassazione (the Italian supreme court) has repeatedly stated that public websites are equivalent to public places [2]. Exercise for the reader: draw the consequences of combining A and B. [1] «I promotori di una riunione in luogo pubblico o aperto al pubblico devono darne avviso, almeno tre giorni prima, al Questore. E’ considerata pubblica anche una riunione, che, sebbene indetta in forma privata, tuttavia per il luogo in cui sarà tenuta, o per il numero delle persone che dovranno intervenirvi, o per lo scopo o l'oggetto di essa, ha carattere di riunione non privata.» http://www.normattiva.it/uri-res/N2Ls?urn:nir:stato:regio.decreto:1931-06-18;773!vig= http://www.normattiva.it/uri-res/N2Ls?urn:nir:stato:regio.de... [2] https://www.lastampa.it/2014/11/17/italia/molestie-cosa-rientra-nel-concetto-di-luogo-aperto-al-pubblico-zbnxRf0N26LRUQkPRcz8hL/pagina.html https://www.lastampa.it/2014/11/17/italia/molestie-cosa-rien...
- flag_bcz_mad 8y agoWhy does everyone assume democracy is good? It clearly wasn’t necessary for Singapore. A well run “dictatorship” is much better than your average democracy. I would concede that a democracy filled with the right people is the best but in reality it is very rare to come upon a population that is actually ready to govern itself. People generally have extremely reductionist and incorrect opinions about such things in my experience.
- spuz 8y ago> Why does everyone assume democracy is good? They don't. As long as it has existed, people have pointed out its flaws. https://www.economist.com/news/essays/21596796-democracy-was-most-successful-political-idea-20th-century-why-has-it-run-trouble-and-what-can-be-do https://www.economist.com/news/essays/21596796-democracy-was...
- mikeash 8y agoDemocracy is awful in all sorts of ways. Its one major advantage is non-violent succession, something other systems really struggle with. Dictatorships can be great for a whole, but eventually you get a mad dictator or two people who both think they should be the dictator and it all falls apart.
- jenscow 8y agoSo, perhaps people should be able to vote for their dictator? :)
- torstenvl 8y agoI mean, that's almost how the longest-running (partial) democracy in the world is run - the Roman Catholic Church.
- michaelscott 8y agoThis is how the Romans thought of dictators, yes. The dictator was elected by nomination and then given supreme authority over state affairs, although usually only in a specific area of governance and with severe term limits. The last guy who said "screw term limits" was ol' Julius Caesar, but he was iced not long after on the Ides of March and the office of dictator was abolished. The title of dictator has taken on a negative connotation in the recent past for obvious reasons, but the idea of a competent or even brilliant man being given total control in order to accomplish a specific task for the good of a country is certainly something to consider regarding governance.
- nindalf 8y agoI see people in this thread surprised that this is happening in Singapore, a “modern” country. Singapore is certainly wealthy, the population is highly educated, institutions aren’t corrupt, all of which is great. However, the political system resembles a democracy only superficially. Every election since 1965 has been won by the same party. It is inconceivable that the People’s Action Party wouldn’t win an election either now or in the future. Some find this surprising. Surely a de facto dictatorship like this shouldn’t be so wealthy and successful. Turns out Lee Kuan Yew is that one Dictator in a million who managed to do pretty much everything right. Almost every decision he took turned out to be the right one for Singapore, including rigging it’s politics so he could stay in power throughout his lifetime. But he’s gone now, so it remains to be seen if his successors can carry on his legacy. Source - 1. A glowing obituary in The Economist, a publication harassed in Singapore for criticising the PAP - https://www.economist.com/obituary/2015/03/22/lee-kuan-yew https://www.economist.com/obituary/2015/03/22/lee-kuan-yew 2. The Dictator’s Handbook
- tzjmetron 8y agoThe "West" actually enjoys much less freedom than the rest of the world. It's only an illusion of democracy and personal freedom.
- oth001 8y agoSimilar to America where Republicans and Democrats are really no different from each other in the grand scheme of things.
- jopsen 8y agoWow, Not true, it looks so from where you're sitting. But politics change a lot over time. It's slow moving and in a two party system, you are unlikely to see big differences between either side. That said, the world would have looked differently had Hilary won in 2016.
- spuz 8y agoOr Gore in 2001
- thunderbong 8y agoKey points from the article - TL;DR - Speaker was on Skype. 121 people gathered together to listen to him. Police had told the organizer to get a permit, which he didn't. Location was inside a public mall. >>> On November 26, 2016, Wham organized an indoor forum called “Civil Disobedience and Social Movements” at a small event space inside a shopping mall in Singapore. The event featured prominent Hong Kong student activist Joshua Wong who addressed the audience remotely via a Skype video call. The event’s Facebook Page indicates that 355 people were interested and 121 went. The Skype discussion, which lasted around two hours, was also live streamed on Facebook by The Online Citizen SG, a social media platform focused on political activism, and garnered 5,700 views. Despite being advised by the police prior to the event to obtain a permit, Wham proceeded without said consent, according to a statement by the Singapore Police Force. Wham faced similar charges of organizing public assemblies without police permits and refusing to sign statements under the Penal Code.
- hkt 8y agoI assume that in summary you're not taking a view..
- angled 8y agoMy main interest in this article was not about Singapore, but at what point does an online gathering cross the boundary to the physical world where limits are placed on the size of the gathering, or if and when it crosses countries' borders. What's not to say the HKer was the host and the Singaporeans were individually the guests? Obviously that isn't what the court decided in this instance but perhaps that is what could happen next time. Was it the physical location of the Singaporeans that made the difference? What if they had attend a Skype concall at home, would the court be looking at who sent the meeting invitation?
- chillacy 8y agoFrom what I’ve read about Sg’s government, they won’t care. If they want to do something they won’t let a legal technicality stop them.
- angelsl 8y agoWhy is everyone focusing on the fact that someone spoke via Skype? The fact is that 1. Jolovan Wham did organise a physical gathering of people 2. The gathering/assembly meets the definition as in the Public Order Act[1] 3. The venue, The Agora, meets the definition of a public place as in the Public Order Act [1]: https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/POA2009 https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/POA2009 They could have been watching a recorded video and it would have been the same.
- lolc 8y agoAh, I was wondering how Skype played a role. So there's no reason it shows up in the title.
- brianpgordon 8y agoI'm not sure that a recorded video would have been the same. The source for the techcrunch article says: > The Singapore Police Force in an earlier statement, said that Wham had organised an indoor public assembly featuring a foreign speaker, which required a Police permit. Although given that political films are also banned, maybe a prerecorded video would have been illegal under a different law.
- angelsl 8y agoThe problem is the intent of the gathering, not that it had a foreign speaker. (Not that I agree with the law, but that's what it says.)
- mempko 8y agoAnd? Some laws are stupid and must be broken.
- angelsl 8y agoIf you don't like a law, change it, don't break it and get yourself in trouble. This is basically the difference between East Asian cultures and Western/American culture. We value a balance of order and individual rights, you guys value individual rights over all.
- hkt 8y agohttps://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ Old but good essay by William Gibson on his trip to Singapore in the 90s. "Disneyland with the Death Penalty". An interesting read and relevant to this.
- gerbilly 8y agoI would never go to Singapore. They'd probably end up whipping me a hundred times for something I did without even being aware of it. [1] IMHO that whole country should serve as a counterexample to all the rest. Humans really are good at making life miserable for each other aren't they? [1] Maybe farting in public, or wearing my shoes on the wrong feet or whatever.
- thelasthuman 8y agoYou need a permit for a public assembly for most places in the USA. Granted there are a lot of differences between the two countries, but this could happen here.
- lotsofpulp 8y agoYou need a permit for assembly in public in the USA because it could cause traffic or other congestion issues that can create hazardous conditions, and need to be planned around. I'm sure this reasoning has been abused to prevent freedom of speech, but I don't see how it could be used online.
- paleogizmo 8y agoIn all fairness I'd be hesitant to live in Singapore on account of its high cost of living and poor work-life balance. However, there is a method to the madness as far as the legal system goes, which makes it tame to visit compare with other large cities in SE Asia or even western europe.
- ponyfleisch 8y ago> In all fairness I'd be hesitant to live in Singapore on account of its high cost of living and poor work-life balance. As an expat, that would likely not affect you much. Lots of MNCs have fairly nice working hours, decent pay and 20-25 days/year paid leave (on top of the numerous public holidays) Cost of living depends on whether you need a big apartment in a posh location and a car. Sending kids to international school is also pricey.
- gerbilly 8y agoThey should make a move about Singapore and call it "Crazy Strict Asians".