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I've come to believe that USB-C is a mistake that we will all regret. USB-C enthusiasts are (from my experience) people who haven't really used it much and thi

by jwr 8y ago

I've come to believe that USB-C is a mistake that we will all regret. USB-C enthusiasts are (from my experience) people who haven't really used it much and think that they will be able to get around with a single cable and a single connector standard. People who actually tried to use it for a number of things quickly realize that USB-C is just the name of the physical connector, which has nothing to do with what the device supports, which in turn has nothing to do with what the (unlabeled!) cable supports. There are no standards for labeling devices or cables, so you quickly end up in a world where you have a bunch of cables and devices all using a single plug, but you have no idea which device will work with what. I daresay this is a worse situation than having multiple types of plugs and cables, because at least then you could set reasonable expectations. Add to this the fact that there are no reliable hubs for USB-C connectors, so you're basically stuck with what your laptop/computer offers, unless you want to live in a world of crappy unreliable hardware (I don't).

kiddico 8y ago
You know I never even considered the cable itself in the whole usb-c equation. And labeling them is a hard problem to solve. Not technically, but aesthetically. We COULD just make different colors mean different things (But then you have to remember the colors...), but everyone wants a specific color(me included). Text labeling could work, but could get out of control, especially at the rate that the standard is changing. Would it need to list the specific features the cable supports? Or can I assume that a cable labeled with 'Thunderbolt' will be compatible with all future iterations of Thunderbolt? Maybe we can do something like resistor color codes with colored bands to make a rainbowed venn diagram of cable features. Surely that's a good idea which will only decrease complexity :P
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  > Surely that's a good idea which will only decrease complexity :P Well, it's clearly less complex than letting the cables unlabeled...
- JohnFen 8y ago
  > but everyone wants a specific color Not everyone! Personally, I couldn't care less what color my cables are (unless the color is telling me something important about the cable).
  - kiriakasis 8y ago
    Good for you. Still I can assure you that you won't be able to convince a dozen manufacturer that care about brands to think the same.
    - JohnFen 8y ago
      I'm sure that you're right. I wasn't asserting that nobody cares about color. I was disputing that everyone cares about color.
coldtea 8y ago
>USB-C enthusiasts are (from my experience) people who haven't really used it much and think that they will be able to get around with a single cable and a single connector standard. People who actually tried to use it for a number of things quickly realize that USB-C is just the name of the physical connector, which has nothing to do with what the device supports, which in turn has nothing to do with what the (unlabeled!) cable supports. Well, I'm using it for my monitors, soundcard, power, iPhone/iPad charging, Sony headphones, and external hard disks. What exactly am I missing from the whole issue, since I don't seem to be having any problems? Can it be fixed by not buying crappy cables?
- hahabrew 8y ago
  the problem that ^can^ occur is drawing overcurrent. usbc is supposed to support higher power demands, and if your usb port cant pass the current because its made of components too fine/resistive for the current being drawn, then {P@FF!}
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    PD hosts are required to monitor and limit current draw. Any magic smoke released is the fault of the host device, not the peripheral that tried to draw too much current.
    - hahabrew 8y ago
      thats what i mean, and when they dont limit current draw because despite being required to the design is cheaper faster not better, then thats it. you get heat at the highest resistance so port gets very hot and undervoltage beyond that resistance, so device gets wonky, unless it is regulated, to prop up the voltage
  - Faaak 8y ago
    That's not how it works (ohm's law for firsts)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
laumars 8y ago
It's worse than that. We now have a situation where different cables of same connection type can damage hardware (as we've seen with powered USB-C hubs and the Nintendo Switch with some 3rd party chargers and docks, etc). It used to be the case that anything of the same connection type would - at worst - not work if it wasn't designed for that piece of equipment. But now you have a situation where things "kinda" work together so consumers are encouraged to mix and match yet some of the time it could literally break your hardware. So now we have a situation where some people are too scared to mix and match which breaks the entire point of a standard connection type - and on the flip-side you have other people who are left with bricked hardware because they were unlucky enough to plug the wrong charger with the wrong device (for example).
- cremp 8y ago
  I'll say it goes further than that. I have a few modular power supplies around from different vendors, and I made the mistake of using one cable in a different vendors supply. The supply side had the same connections; so I thought that I could just mix-and-match. Turns out, that even though the connections are standardized, I ended up putting ground on a 5v pin, 12v on the 5v, 3.3v on the 3.3v (magically) and 5v on the 12v pin on a standard SATA connector. As a result, I fried several hard drives, because the output of the supplies wasn't standardized for the connector type. I can't even imagine an end-user using a volt-meter to check which are compatible with which vendor. This was a problem before USB-C. TL;DL: Check your modular supply cables, and don't use other vendors cables.
  - pantalaimon 8y ago
    There is no standard for modular power supply cables. USB-C on the other hand is a standard.
    - cremp 8y ago
      They have the same form-factor for the connectors; I'd say that's a standard; especially since they are polarized plugs (full square, trapezoid.)
notacoward 8y ago
Completely agree. I was using USB-C earlier than most, with a Google Pixel laptop, and I've added a couple more USB-C devices since then. The situation with different chargers and cables supporting different voltages and features is still insane. The fact that it took three years before I could find chargers with more than one USB-PD port is also insane. Too many vendors (e.g. Sony for their latest ANC headphones) have already had to ship power-only USB-A to USB-C cables just to have something that works. That kind of brings me to my next point: proliferation of cables and dongles. Whenever I travel now, I need to have the same USB-A to micro-B cables I was already using, plus some pure USB-C, plus USB-A to USB-C. Not uncommonly, USB-C to micro-B gets thrown into the mix. And the variance across all those is even greater than the pure USB-C stuff. Good luck keeping track of voltage, directionality, data vs. power-only, and all the other variables. For now at least, the addition of USB-C has made things far worse. I for one would be happier if USB-C were only for laptops and tablets, and all the people making the zillions of smaller devices would FFS stick with micro-B like they were already starting to. Then I'd only need one power adapter, two kinds of cables, and no dongles, instead of this mess.
VectorLock 8y ago
Its really disappointing to me how hard it is to find a featureful/high-end phone that doesn't have USB-C.
turtlebits 8y ago
How are there cable enthusiasts? Either they have a good experience or a bad experience overall. I've had generally good experiences with Type-C and IMHO is an improvement over buying video out dongles for every device and being able to use a single cable for charging.
int_19h 8y ago
All I wanted from USB-C was a single charging cable for everything - phone, tablet, laptop, portable battery, headphones etc. I've got exactly that, and I'm using it plenty.
- taeric 8y ago
  Oddly... I have several tablets, Bluetooth headphones, bike lights, batteries, and old phones. All use the same charging cable. My newer phone uses USB c. If it was designed to have a single connector for charging cables, they were designing to solve a solved problem.
  - jhasse 8y ago
    You've missed the laptop. So the problem wasn't solved. Also let's not forget that USB-C is two-fold rotationally-symmetrical in contrast to micro-B.
    - taeric 8y ago
      The two fold rotational symmetry is nice, in a gimmicky way that doesn't impact me. Neat, but I don't care that much. And I didn't forget the laptop. I just don't take it with me much. And I prefer the mag trick of older Macs. So, congrats, you have a connector that everyone can standardize on. Now, once literally everyone else moves of the old standard, we'll be there.
      - jhasse 8y ago
        > Now, once literally everyone else moves of the old standard, we'll be there. No, not "literally everyone", as laptops weren't using micro-B for charging.
        taeric 8y ago
        I meant literally everyone else other than laptop makers... So, my headphones, my bike computer, my bike lights (front and back), my spare batteries, and my other tablets. Also, I confess, yes. I was being rhetorical. :)
Vinnl 8y ago
I already have this problem with current USB: I don't really know which of my cables do data transfer, and which just do power transfer. The few times I try to transfer data by cable, I have to keep trying a bunch of different cables. It sounds like USB-C is that, but worse. (If there's any way to tell what cable is a data cable, I'd love for someone to enlighten me.)
- jwr 8y ago
  Oh, the current USB situation is much, much better. You can a) throw the "power-only" cables into the trash immediately and forget about them, b) look at the USB-A plug and the number of pins and see if it's USB 3.0 or 2.0. After that, assuming your cables aren't junk, you're fine: if you can plug it in, you can expect things to work.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> People who actually tried to use it for a number of things quickly realize that USB-C is just the name of the physical connector, which has nothing to do with what the device supports, which in turn has nothing to do with what the (unlabeled!) cable supports. This is also true with USB A, B mini-A and mini-B, mini-AB, micro-A and micro-B, and micro-AB; also A, B, and micro-B actually have two versions each of the connectors, with compatibility in one direction, so you don't even always know that physical connectors are compatible from the connector name without also the USB version.

by jwr 8y ago

kiddico 8y ago

You know I never even considered the cable itself in the whole usb-c equation. And labeling them is a hard problem to solve. Not technically, but aesthetically. We COULD just make different colors mean different things (But then you have to remember the colors...), but everyone wants a specific color(me included). Text labeling could work, but could get out of control, especially at the rate that the standard is changing. Would it need to list the specific features the cable supports? Or can I assume that a cable labeled with 'Thunderbolt' will be compatible with all future iterations of Thunderbolt? Maybe we can do something like resistor color codes with colored bands to make a rainbowed venn diagram of cable features. Surely that's a good idea which will only decrease complexity :P

marcosdumay 8y ago
> Surely that's a good idea which will only decrease complexity :P Well, it's clearly less complex than letting the cables unlabeled...
JohnFen 8y ago
> but everyone wants a specific color Not everyone! Personally, I couldn't care less what color my cables are (unless the color is telling me something important about the cable).
- kiriakasis 8y ago
  Good for you. Still I can assure you that you won't be able to convince a dozen manufacturer that care about brands to think the same.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    I'm sure that you're right. I wasn't asserting that nobody cares about color. I was disputing that everyone cares about color.

coldtea 8y ago

>USB-C enthusiasts are (from my experience) people who haven't really used it much and think that they will be able to get around with a single cable and a single connector standard. People who actually tried to use it for a number of things quickly realize that USB-C is just the name of the physical connector, which has nothing to do with what the device supports, which in turn has nothing to do with what the (unlabeled!) cable supports. Well, I'm using it for my monitors, soundcard, power, iPhone/iPad charging, Sony headphones, and external hard disks. What exactly am I missing from the whole issue, since I don't seem to be having any problems? Can it be fixed by not buying crappy cables?

hahabrew 8y ago
the problem that ^can^ occur is drawing overcurrent. usbc is supposed to support higher power demands, and if your usb port cant pass the current because its made of components too fine/resistive for the current being drawn, then {P@FF!}
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  PD hosts are required to monitor and limit current draw. Any magic smoke released is the fault of the host device, not the peripheral that tried to draw too much current.
  - hahabrew 8y ago
    thats what i mean, and when they dont limit current draw because despite being required to the design is cheaper faster not better, then thats it. you get heat at the highest resistance so port gets very hot and undervoltage beyond that resistance, so device gets wonky, unless it is regulated, to prop up the voltage
- Faaak 8y ago
  That's not how it works (ohm's law for firsts)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

laumars 8y ago

It's worse than that. We now have a situation where different cables of same connection type can damage hardware (as we've seen with powered USB-C hubs and the Nintendo Switch with some 3rd party chargers and docks, etc). It used to be the case that anything of the same connection type would - at worst - not work if it wasn't designed for that piece of equipment. But now you have a situation where things "kinda" work together so consumers are encouraged to mix and match yet some of the time it could literally break your hardware. So now we have a situation where some people are too scared to mix and match which breaks the entire point of a standard connection type - and on the flip-side you have other people who are left with bricked hardware because they were unlucky enough to plug the wrong charger with the wrong device (for example).

cremp 8y ago
I'll say it goes further than that. I have a few modular power supplies around from different vendors, and I made the mistake of using one cable in a different vendors supply. The supply side had the same connections; so I thought that I could just mix-and-match. Turns out, that even though the connections are standardized, I ended up putting ground on a 5v pin, 12v on the 5v, 3.3v on the 3.3v (magically) and 5v on the 12v pin on a standard SATA connector. As a result, I fried several hard drives, because the output of the supplies wasn't standardized for the connector type. I can't even imagine an end-user using a volt-meter to check which are compatible with which vendor. This was a problem before USB-C. TL;DL: Check your modular supply cables, and don't use other vendors cables.
- pantalaimon 8y ago
  There is no standard for modular power supply cables. USB-C on the other hand is a standard.
  - cremp 8y ago
    They have the same form-factor for the connectors; I'd say that's a standard; especially since they are polarized plugs (full square, trapezoid.)

notacoward 8y ago

Completely agree. I was using USB-C earlier than most, with a Google Pixel laptop, and I've added a couple more USB-C devices since then. The situation with different chargers and cables supporting different voltages and features is still insane. The fact that it took three years before I could find chargers with more than one USB-PD port is also insane. Too many vendors (e.g. Sony for their latest ANC headphones) have already had to ship power-only USB-A to USB-C cables just to have something that works. That kind of brings me to my next point: proliferation of cables and dongles. Whenever I travel now, I need to have the same USB-A to micro-B cables I was already using, plus some pure USB-C, plus USB-A to USB-C. Not uncommonly, USB-C to micro-B gets thrown into the mix. And the variance across all those is even greater than the pure USB-C stuff. Good luck keeping track of voltage, directionality, data vs. power-only, and all the other variables. For now at least, the addition of USB-C has made things far worse. I for one would be happier if USB-C were only for laptops and tablets, and all the people making the zillions of smaller devices would FFS stick with micro-B like they were already starting to. Then I'd only need one power adapter, two kinds of cables, and no dongles, instead of this mess.

VectorLock 8y ago

Its really disappointing to me how hard it is to find a featureful/high-end phone that doesn't have USB-C.

turtlebits 8y ago

How are there cable enthusiasts? Either they have a good experience or a bad experience overall. I've had generally good experiences with Type-C and IMHO is an improvement over buying video out dongles for every device and being able to use a single cable for charging.

int_19h 8y ago

All I wanted from USB-C was a single charging cable for everything - phone, tablet, laptop, portable battery, headphones etc. I've got exactly that, and I'm using it plenty.

taeric 8y ago
Oddly... I have several tablets, Bluetooth headphones, bike lights, batteries, and old phones. All use the same charging cable. My newer phone uses USB c. If it was designed to have a single connector for charging cables, they were designing to solve a solved problem.
- jhasse 8y ago
  You've missed the laptop. So the problem wasn't solved. Also let's not forget that USB-C is two-fold rotationally-symmetrical in contrast to micro-B.
  - taeric 8y ago
    The two fold rotational symmetry is nice, in a gimmicky way that doesn't impact me. Neat, but I don't care that much. And I didn't forget the laptop. I just don't take it with me much. And I prefer the mag trick of older Macs. So, congrats, you have a connector that everyone can standardize on. Now, once literally everyone else moves of the old standard, we'll be there.
    - jhasse 8y ago
      > Now, once literally everyone else moves of the old standard, we'll be there. No, not "literally everyone", as laptops weren't using micro-B for charging.
      - taeric 8y ago
        I meant literally everyone else other than laptop makers... So, my headphones, my bike computer, my bike lights (front and back), my spare batteries, and my other tablets. Also, I confess, yes. I was being rhetorical. :)

Vinnl 8y ago

I already have this problem with current USB: I don't really know which of my cables do data transfer, and which just do power transfer. The few times I try to transfer data by cable, I have to keep trying a bunch of different cables. It sounds like USB-C is that, but worse. (If there's any way to tell what cable is a data cable, I'd love for someone to enlighten me.)

jwr 8y ago
Oh, the current USB situation is much, much better. You can a) throw the "power-only" cables into the trash immediately and forget about them, b) look at the USB-A plug and the number of pins and see if it's USB 3.0 or 2.0. After that, assuming your cables aren't junk, you're fine: if you can plug it in, you can expect things to work.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> People who actually tried to use it for a number of things quickly realize that USB-C is just the name of the physical connector, which has nothing to do with what the device supports, which in turn has nothing to do with what the (unlabeled!) cable supports. This is also true with USB A, B mini-A and mini-B, mini-AB, micro-A and micro-B, and micro-AB; also A, B, and micro-B actually have two versions each of the connectors, with compatibility in one direction, so you don't even always know that physical connectors are compatible from the connector name without also the USB version.