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It's strange to me that the social credit system in China seems to rarely be discussed alongside credit scores in the United States, an already existing, massiv

It's strange to me that the social credit system in China seems to rarely be discussed alongside credit scores in the United States, an already existing, massively opaque, punitive system that keeps people in cycles of debt and poverty.

sambull 8y ago
Not to mention that it interjects itself as a social ranking system for private employeers.
- brudgers 8y ago
  And access to health care is strongly linked with employment.
mc32 8y ago
Are they equitable? There is some resemblance, but it's different enough. Let's put it this way, despite the ills of the US Credit Bureaux, I would want the Chinese Social Credit system much less. Even with no credit, one can still get on a train, it does not affect what schools you can put your kids in, or penalize my spot in a gov't queue.
- oldoverholt 8y ago
  Credit score absolutely affects what neighborhoods you can buy or rent in (so public schools) and whether you can afford private school. It’s obviously not a 1:1 comparison or “this one is better than the other,” but when like Bill Kristol is floating the idea of regime change in China in response to news about the social credit system, I think it’s important to do some reflecting on our own oppressive systems.
  - mc32 8y ago
    It's not a direct comparison. I think it's a bit of a stretch. Of course, not having money means you can't afford housing in a good school district, but if you happen to be poor or have bad credit but live in a good district (or borrow a relatives address) you can still put that kid in the district school. Basically, it's not a direct result. The most obvious difference is my _knowing_ someone with a bad score does not lower my score by loose association. Kristol is a war hawk, like many of the other conservative in name Neo-Cons. Glad their influence is now on the wane. What China is doing is not good, in many cases, but it's their problem and they can sort them out like they did in '49 and '66-'67. Somewhat more comparable is the German Schufa system --but it's till not the same.
    - oldoverholt 8y ago
      It’s not direct, but the result can be the same (and it’s not just about being poor, it’s about a low credit score meaning you get shitty loan terms or a landlord isn’t willing to rent to you). I won’t defend the social credit system, but I do think there are enough parallels with credit scores that it’s worth mentioning in the interest of getting some justice in that area.
      - chii 8y ago
        credit score is purely financial. It "purely" indicates how likely you're going to default on your loans. A social "credit score" system is a way to control the behaviour of people in a society - by those who deem the control necessary for "the greater good". They are different classes of things - a financial credit score can be improved if your finances improve (by luck or by hardwork). A social credit score can't be improved unless you change your person/beliefs.
        jdietrich 8y ago
        "Purely financial" things can also be political and discriminatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
        oldoverholt 8y ago
        I don’t know enough about the social credit stuff to refute your characterization of it, but a financial credit score very much follows you even if you somehow end up with more money. Point is, a credit score often closes avenues by which you could get more money, hence the cyclical and punitive nature of it. The scare quotes of “the greater good” you used for the social credit system can equally be used to characterize credit scores as a way to control people’s financial and employment and living prospects in the interest of the “greater good” of financial markets. I think the idea that markets and the finance sector setting credit scores that have far reaching impacts on people’s lives is somehow categorically different than the state implementing a social credit system that might have similar outcomes isn’t correct. So we should talk about them in similar terms.
  - CamperBob2 8y ago
    Isn't this basically the same sort of "whataboutism" that we decry elsewhere?
    - oldoverholt 8y ago
      I’m not sure who “we” is or what varieties of “whataboutism” “we’ve” universally decried, so I don’t know how to reply to this.
- monocasa 8y ago
  Employers in most states will look at your credit score to make hiring decisions.
- wholien 8y ago
  For schools, getting on the Shixin list (the only national "list" there is), you are barred from sending your kids to private school. So if you live in a good district with a good school (your example for bad credit in USA), your kid can still go there! (被执行人为自然人的，被采取限制消费措施后，不得有以下高消费及非生活和工作必需的消费行为：...(七）子女就读高收费私立学校) For transportation, nothing bars you from taking the train/plane/boat, you're just not allowed to buy anything in first or second class (so probably just economy for planes, and the most normal seats on trains). Can you point me to anything that says you can't take trains at all? From the Shixin list, it says "被执行人为自然人的，被采取限制消费措施后，不得有以下高消费及非生活和工作必需的消费行为：（一）乘坐交通工具时，选择飞机、列车软卧、轮船二等以上舱位", and "（九）乘坐G字头动车组列车全部座位、其他动车组列车一等以上座位等其他非生活和工作必需的消费行为" (Can't take the G trains aka the high speed rail or any slight-lower-speed train's first class). [0] http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/
enraged_camel 8y ago
Does a low credit score prevent you from using public transport? (This may not seem like a big deal to you, but in China, personal car ownership is nowhere as common, and public transport is the only way to get around for many people.)
- oldoverholt 8y ago
  A low credit score might mean you can’t rent more desirable apartments or buy more expensive homes that are well-served by public transit, so yes, it could prevent you from using public transit if you can’t live somewhere where it’s a feasible option for you.
- vkou 8y ago
  No, here in the US, we have the no-fly list for that. Once you're there, good luck getting your name off it.
- est 8y ago
  > Does a low credit score prevent you from using public transport? chinese credit score does not prevent you from using public transport, but only the "luxury" ones, e.g. High speed rail and planes. However you can take normal trains and buses. Yes, HSR and planes are considered "luxury". credit scores were introduced mainly to combat loan dispute cases in China, which is a growing problem because the economy is slowing down, lots of bad investment and missed paybacks.
  - imtringued 8y ago
    High speed rail cannot be considered a luxury in a country which only has high speed rail.
    - est 8y ago
      Are you serious? Normal trains like the Z-class in China has higher speed than US's Amtrak
Para2016 8y ago
Not extending credit to a person vs not allowing you to spend your existing money is not really comparable. Credit scores are not "massively opaque". Your bank should report it monthly to you and you can see it rise and fall based on your number lines of credit lines (loans, mortgage, car, credit cards, etc) and whether or not you're in repayment. It's not punitive. If you have too many lines of credit out and you can't pay them, why should a company extend credit? For charity? Cycle of debt and poverty statement makes no sense. Credit scores do not do that. People can easily repair credit scores by beginning to repay their existing loans. They don't even have to be paid off, just in repayment. Your ideas regarding credit score and "social credit" as comparable similar systems is false. I don't think you're an American at all now that I think about it.
- oldoverholt 8y ago
  The formula for calculating FICO credit scores isn't public, the processes for correcting errors on credit reports are not responsive, and lenders use questionable algorithms that affect things like your credit limit. https://qz.com/1079490/the-equifax-breach-is-proof-its-time-to-overhaul-the-credit-bureau-industry/ https://qz.com/1079490/the-equifax-breach-is-proof-its-time-... http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-wealth/2011/05/23/why-are-credit-scores-such-a-mystery/ http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-wealth/2011/05/23/why-are-c... https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1122&context=yjolt https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?refe... https://publicintegrity.org/business/unregulated-fico-has-key-role-in-each-americans-access-to-credit/ https://publicintegrity.org/business/unregulated-fico-has-ke... Going into debt for an education that is sold as a ticket to higher wages and then being punished in employment and housing for debt you took on and were unable to repay is punitive. It's not just about getting further lines of credit, it's about being able to land a job or find a place to live. Oh and I forgot to even mention debt related to medical expenses. That's a huge issue in the US... https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/11/12/debt-weighs-heavily-those-trying-rise-from-poverty/yBy0ZVd48bcANQGgk0Kf9K/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/11/12/debt-weighs-... https://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/crushing_debt_part_of_cycle_of.html https://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/crushing_deb... Weird to jump to the conclusion that I'm not American, but whatever.

sambull 8y ago

Not to mention that it interjects itself as a social ranking system for private employeers.

brudgers 8y ago
And access to health care is strongly linked with employment.

mc32 8y ago

Are they equitable? There is some resemblance, but it's different enough. Let's put it this way, despite the ills of the US Credit Bureaux, I would want the Chinese Social Credit system much less. Even with no credit, one can still get on a train, it does not affect what schools you can put your kids in, or penalize my spot in a gov't queue.

oldoverholt 8y ago
Credit score absolutely affects what neighborhoods you can buy or rent in (so public schools) and whether you can afford private school. It’s obviously not a 1:1 comparison or “this one is better than the other,” but when like Bill Kristol is floating the idea of regime change in China in response to news about the social credit system, I think it’s important to do some reflecting on our own oppressive systems.
- mc32 8y ago
  It's not a direct comparison. I think it's a bit of a stretch. Of course, not having money means you can't afford housing in a good school district, but if you happen to be poor or have bad credit but live in a good district (or borrow a relatives address) you can still put that kid in the district school. Basically, it's not a direct result. The most obvious difference is my _knowing_ someone with a bad score does not lower my score by loose association. Kristol is a war hawk, like many of the other conservative in name Neo-Cons. Glad their influence is now on the wane. What China is doing is not good, in many cases, but it's their problem and they can sort them out like they did in '49 and '66-'67. Somewhat more comparable is the German Schufa system --but it's till not the same.
  - oldoverholt 8y ago
    It’s not direct, but the result can be the same (and it’s not just about being poor, it’s about a low credit score meaning you get shitty loan terms or a landlord isn’t willing to rent to you). I won’t defend the social credit system, but I do think there are enough parallels with credit scores that it’s worth mentioning in the interest of getting some justice in that area.
    - chii 8y ago
      credit score is purely financial. It "purely" indicates how likely you're going to default on your loans. A social "credit score" system is a way to control the behaviour of people in a society - by those who deem the control necessary for "the greater good". They are different classes of things - a financial credit score can be improved if your finances improve (by luck or by hardwork). A social credit score can't be improved unless you change your person/beliefs.
      - jdietrich 8y ago
        "Purely financial" things can also be political and discriminatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
      - oldoverholt 8y ago
        I don’t know enough about the social credit stuff to refute your characterization of it, but a financial credit score very much follows you even if you somehow end up with more money. Point is, a credit score often closes avenues by which you could get more money, hence the cyclical and punitive nature of it. The scare quotes of “the greater good” you used for the social credit system can equally be used to characterize credit scores as a way to control people’s financial and employment and living prospects in the interest of the “greater good” of financial markets. I think the idea that markets and the finance sector setting credit scores that have far reaching impacts on people’s lives is somehow categorically different than the state implementing a social credit system that might have similar outcomes isn’t correct. So we should talk about them in similar terms.
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  Isn't this basically the same sort of "whataboutism" that we decry elsewhere?
  - oldoverholt 8y ago
    I’m not sure who “we” is or what varieties of “whataboutism” “we’ve” universally decried, so I don’t know how to reply to this.
monocasa 8y ago
Employers in most states will look at your credit score to make hiring decisions.
wholien 8y ago
For schools, getting on the Shixin list (the only national "list" there is), you are barred from sending your kids to private school. So if you live in a good district with a good school (your example for bad credit in USA), your kid can still go there! (被执行人为自然人的，被采取限制消费措施后，不得有以下高消费及非生活和工作必需的消费行为：...(七）子女就读高收费私立学校) For transportation, nothing bars you from taking the train/plane/boat, you're just not allowed to buy anything in first or second class (so probably just economy for planes, and the most normal seats on trains). Can you point me to anything that says you can't take trains at all? From the Shixin list, it says "被执行人为自然人的，被采取限制消费措施后，不得有以下高消费及非生活和工作必需的消费行为：（一）乘坐交通工具时，选择飞机、列车软卧、轮船二等以上舱位", and "（九）乘坐G字头动车组列车全部座位、其他动车组列车一等以上座位等其他非生活和工作必需的消费行为" (Can't take the G trains aka the high speed rail or any slight-lower-speed train's first class). [0] http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/ http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/shixin/

enraged_camel 8y ago

Does a low credit score prevent you from using public transport? (This may not seem like a big deal to you, but in China, personal car ownership is nowhere as common, and public transport is the only way to get around for many people.)

oldoverholt 8y ago
A low credit score might mean you can’t rent more desirable apartments or buy more expensive homes that are well-served by public transit, so yes, it could prevent you from using public transit if you can’t live somewhere where it’s a feasible option for you.
vkou 8y ago
No, here in the US, we have the no-fly list for that. Once you're there, good luck getting your name off it.
est 8y ago
> Does a low credit score prevent you from using public transport? chinese credit score does not prevent you from using public transport, but only the "luxury" ones, e.g. High speed rail and planes. However you can take normal trains and buses. Yes, HSR and planes are considered "luxury". credit scores were introduced mainly to combat loan dispute cases in China, which is a growing problem because the economy is slowing down, lots of bad investment and missed paybacks.
- imtringued 8y ago
  High speed rail cannot be considered a luxury in a country which only has high speed rail.
  - est 8y ago
    Are you serious? Normal trains like the Z-class in China has higher speed than US's Amtrak

Para2016 8y ago

Not extending credit to a person vs not allowing you to spend your existing money is not really comparable. Credit scores are not "massively opaque". Your bank should report it monthly to you and you can see it rise and fall based on your number lines of credit lines (loans, mortgage, car, credit cards, etc) and whether or not you're in repayment. It's not punitive. If you have too many lines of credit out and you can't pay them, why should a company extend credit? For charity? Cycle of debt and poverty statement makes no sense. Credit scores do not do that. People can easily repair credit scores by beginning to repay their existing loans. They don't even have to be paid off, just in repayment. Your ideas regarding credit score and "social credit" as comparable similar systems is false. I don't think you're an American at all now that I think about it.

oldoverholt 8y ago
The formula for calculating FICO credit scores isn't public, the processes for correcting errors on credit reports are not responsive, and lenders use questionable algorithms that affect things like your credit limit. https://qz.com/1079490/the-equifax-breach-is-proof-its-time-to-overhaul-the-credit-bureau-industry/ https://qz.com/1079490/the-equifax-breach-is-proof-its-time-... http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-wealth/2011/05/23/why-are-credit-scores-such-a-mystery/ http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-wealth/2011/05/23/why-are-c... https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1122&context=yjolt https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?refe... https://publicintegrity.org/business/unregulated-fico-has-key-role-in-each-americans-access-to-credit/ https://publicintegrity.org/business/unregulated-fico-has-ke... Going into debt for an education that is sold as a ticket to higher wages and then being punished in employment and housing for debt you took on and were unable to repay is punitive. It's not just about getting further lines of credit, it's about being able to land a job or find a place to live. Oh and I forgot to even mention debt related to medical expenses. That's a huge issue in the US... https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/11/12/debt-weighs-heavily-those-trying-rise-from-poverty/yBy0ZVd48bcANQGgk0Kf9K/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/11/12/debt-weighs-... https://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/crushing_debt_part_of_cycle_of.html https://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/crushing_deb... Weird to jump to the conclusion that I'm not American, but whatever.