14 ms·

I think we're in danger of attaching the stigma of tobacco to something which is far less damaging. Vaping need not be zero harm for it to be socially acceptabl

by jf- 8y ago

I think we're in danger of attaching the stigma of tobacco to something which is far less damaging. Vaping need not be zero harm for it to be socially acceptable; research shows that there is no safe level of alcohol consumption, that red meat is carcinogenic, and I imagine that despite recent legalisation efforts marijuana poses a health threat. Let's not become the 'no fun allowed' society.

komali2 8y ago
Drinking gets you buzz, marijuana gets you all sorts of different kinds of highs depending on the strain, tobacco gets you... Kind of a little more awake I guess? I don't remember any positive side effects of smoking other than companionship with other smokers when I step outside, which I could easily get by just walking up and saying hello.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Pyxl101 8y ago
  Nicotine is a nootropic, that is, a drug that has a positive effect on the performance of cognitive tasks involving attention and memory, and may even boost IQ. Starting points for further research: "Nicotine as a cognitive enhancer." (1992): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 "Nicotine treatment of mild cognitive impairment" (2012): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ "Cognitive Effects of Nicotine: Recent Progress." (2018): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 A study measuring higher effective IQ (1994): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf > We therefore hypothesised that nicotine is acting to improve intellectual performance on the elementary information processing correlates of IQ. [W]e tested this hypothesis using the Raven Advanced Progressive Matrices (APM) test. APM scores were significantly higher in the smoking session compared to the non-smoking session, suggesting that nicotine acts to enhance physiological processes underlying performance on intellectual tasks. "Will a Nicotine Patch Make You Smarter?": https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-patch-make-you-smarter-excerpt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-p... These may be reasons why people choose to use it. I've certainly spoken to people who believe they're more productive or effective on nicotine. I don't know what the current research is on whether these benefits are short-term only or can be sustained long-term. I'm not an expert on this - I'm just casually interested in nootroptics. I don't consume nicotine or tobacco. There is also debate about how addictive nicotine is by itself. While tobacco is extremely addictive, there is evidence that nicotine, alone, is habit-forming but only mildly addictive or perhaps even nonaddictive (but still habit-forming). Psychopharmacologist Paul Newhouse makes this point in the Scientific American article above. An essay by Gwern Branwen presenting an overview of data on nicotine addiction: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine > My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability An in-depth review and critique of the evidence of nicotine addiction: "A critique of nicotine addiction" (2000): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf > We submit that an objective evaluation of these data leads to the conclusion that [nicotine] is not an addictive drug and that the popularized equation of the addictive properties of nicotine [...] has little to do with science.
  - PascLeRasc 8y ago
    I use nicotine seasonally as an antidepressant for SAD. This is my second winter doing this - when it got warm and sunny last spring I didn't even think about my vape - I just used it for 30 seconds in the morning for a few days, then put it away until October. I much prefer this to having to cycle off a "real" antidepressant like Wellbutrin like my doctor wants me to.
- pisky 8y ago
  The few people I know who still smoke do it for stress and weight issues. I have casually mentioned a few healthier alternatives to them but none seem receptive so maybe there are other, more personal reasons.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    Most "Healthy Alternatives" completely miss the point - assuming things like eating a carrot stick is going to be at all the same as inhaling a chemical when one is stressed or hungry or that taking up knitting is going to be a perfect substitute for a mindless habit.
    - pisky 8y ago
      I was thinking more along the lines of meditation for stress, and IF for weight loss. I've seen both work well amongst non smokers, so hoped they could work for smokers too.
- throwaway52975 8y ago
  The best analogy I can give is to salt in food. Nobody would eat a teaspoon full of salt, but it makes everything else taste better. Nicotine is subtly but profoundly pleasurable; when inhaled, it delivers an instant and substantial hit of dopamine that noticeably enhances the context it is experienced in. Nicotine relieves fatigue, it lifts the mood, it suppresses hunger, it paradoxically induces both stimulation and relaxation. It's your morning cup of coffee, only infinitely more so. Even the addiction is, in a strange sense, pleasurable. A nicotine craving is a purely objectified need that can be satisfied in a very direct and immediate way; that is a powerful experience if you have other important needs that cannot be satisfied. I might be miserable at work, I might be depressed and anxious in ways that do not respond to drugs or psychotherapy, I might be poor and lonely and justifiably hopeless about the future, but this one specific need of mine can always be satisfied with a pack of smokes or a Juul and a five minute break. When you have very limited control over your circumstances, cigarettes give you some modicum of control over your mood. If you have never felt completely trapped by your circumstances, it is difficult to express how significantly that sliver of control can affect your sense of self. The sociability of smoking simply cannot be emulated in any other way, because the act of smoking itself provides a profound sense of communality. Non-smokers do not and cannot understand why the smokers choose to huddle outside, which is precisely why we feel able to start conversations with complete strangers. We are bound together by a bewitching, maddening and frequently lifelong relationship with a very peculiar alkaloid. I believe that nicotine has, for entirely respectable reasons, been demonized by the anti-smoking lobby; it has been characterised as a completely pointless drug that persists only because of the aggressive marketing of tobacco companies and its highly addictive nature. I would argue that the potent addictive potential of nicotine is a product of its potent psychoactive effect and the complex role it plays in the life of smokers. E-cigarette users see e-cigarettes as a potentially lifesaving technology that satisfies a profound psychological need. I do not wish to endorse e-cigarettes, I certainly would not encourage anyone to take up nicotine use, but I would beg for some modicum of empathy on the part of non-smokers towards their nicotine-dependent peers.
  - jimpudar 8y ago
    This is an incredibly well written comment. One of my best friends is a two pack a day smoker, and when I ask him why he doesn't even _want_ to quit, he has (less eloquently) given me a lot of these reasons. He doesn't have a lot of control over his circumstances, and I can definitely understand the sense of control you can get from satisfying a nicotine craving. He's also mentioned the social aspect quite a few times. He frequently tells me that the best times in his life have all been smoking cigarettes. My issue is that he is undoubtedly going to suffer major health problems, likely dying much earlier than he would have head it not been for the two pack a day habit. He knows this, and routinely jokes about dying before he hits thirty. I don't know if he really understands how young thirty is. I do have empathy for him, but I love him very much and hate to see the damage he is doing to himself...
chii 8y ago
> Let's not become the 'no fun allowed' society. i might draw the line at addictiveness. But then caffeine is also mildly addictive...
- mevile 8y ago
  Pretty much anyone can quit caffeine in a week, easily. Nicotine is not in even in the same ballpark in terms of addictiveness based on my anecdotal experience. There's absolutely no way I am OK with something as addicting as nicotine being marketed to children. Teenagers are children and I'm happy the government is pursuing vaping such as it is.
  - baddox 8y ago
    Anyone can quit caffeine forever by not drinking caffeine for a week? I know a lot more people who have quit smoking forever (so far) than people who have quit caffeine.
    - sp332 8y ago
      You can get over the chemical dependency on caffeine in a week to ten days, if you go more-or-less cold turkey and put up with the headaches. The psychological dependency might be trickier.
      - baddox 8y ago
        In my experience the side effects of caffeine withdrawal are much much worse than for nicotine (cigarettes). Both last a week or two.
        sp332 8y ago
        A slow taper off of caffeine is much more comfortable, even if it does take longer. Can't really speak to the nicotine side.
        rwnspace 8y ago
smallnamespace 8y ago
> far less damaging E-cigarette vapor disables key immune cells in the lung and boosts inflammation: Effects similar to those seen in regular smokers and patients with chronic lung disease. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180813190148.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180813190148.h... E-cigs shut down hundreds of immune system genes—regular cigs don’t https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/02/e-cigs-shut-down-hundreds-of-immune-system-genes-regular-cigs-dont/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/02/e-cigs-shut-down-hun... Widely used e-cigarette flavoring impairs lung function https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180523172310.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180523172310.h... It may turn out that e-cigarettes are, on the balance, safer than cigarettes, however it's way too early to make that claim with any level of certainty. Realistically, we're probably going to find out through long-term longitudinal studies in a few decades.
- jf- 8y ago
  > It may turn out that e-cigarettes are, on the balance, safer than cigarettes, however it's way too early to make that claim with any level of certainty. No, it isn't. Tobacco contains 70 known human carcinogens and is known to directly cause lung cancer. No one is claiming that vaping causes cancer. The possibility that's being raised is that after decades of use vaping may cause lung disease. I know which is worse. And importantly, as you say, the matter in unsettled and it is just as likely that it does not. Is your point that it should be pre-emptively banned, just in case?
  - clumsysmurf 8y ago
    > No one is claiming that vaping causes cancer "To evaluate possible long-term effects of vaping, the team assessed DNA damage in the cells of the volunteers' mouths." "Dator and Balbo identified three DNA-damaging compounds, formaldehyde, acrolein and methylglyoxal, whose levels increased in the saliva after vaping." "Compared with people who don't vape, four of the five e-cigarette users showed increased DNA damage related to acrolein exposure." "E-cigarettes can damage DNA" https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-e-cigarettes-dna.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-e-cigarettes-dna.html
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kizer 8y ago
Are you twelve years old? You want to have fun fun fun. Me no like the no fun society. Any company connected to big tobacco should be erased forever.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
Although I agree with you in general, I feel like I have to raise some points... Unless I've missed something, the evidence for red meat being a carcinogen is actually still up for debate and it's nowhere near conclusive. I've skimmed some sources making this claim, but I wasn't convinced by their research methodology. I've discussed the weed issue enough times that I luckily have this article [0] in my bookmarks, which analyses our current knowledge. I'm not aware of any more modern article which does the same in-depth analysis on the state of things. I won't claim that weed is a magical drug without any kind of side-effects, but the research on its impact still seems fairly young. My key take-away from the linked article was that young people should probably avoid regular usage, maybe aside from trying it out once or twice. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604177/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604177/
- jf- 8y ago
  > but I wasn't convinced by their research methodology This is the problem with all of science, or at least the popular discussion of it. Things get presented in little bite-sized chunks stripped of all context. It's significant effort to read the original papers and supporting papers and decide for yourself, and that's neglecting the domain knowledge that's required to do that properly. On top of that there are conflicting results where even experts may disagree. All you can do is wait for a consensus position to emerge.
EamonnMR 8y ago
If they weren't going to switch to cigarettes as soon as Juul gets banned I'd agree.
kizer 8y ago
https://imgur.com/a/i9rWJbb https://imgur.com/a/i9rWJbb
oliwarner 8y ago
But nicotine isn't "fun". You think it's cool and by the time you realise it's not, you are physically dependant on it to function. At least alcohol and marijuana do something.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  >You think it's cool and by the time you realise it's not, Which is why vaping is so dangerous. If you can think of a flavor, it's available. No flavor, cigar, blueberry pie, chocolate brownies, etc. More flavors than a shaved ice stand. Unlike cigarettes where you have "nauseating burnt paper" and "menthol nauseating burnt paper".
- jf- 8y ago
  Nicotine does do something, it gives you a dopamine hit. It feels good. It doesn’t cause impairment like weed and alcohol if that’s what you mean by “doing something”, but you can definitely feel it. Even if you personally don’t respond to it, others do.
  - oliwarner 8y ago
    It does that to begin with, but this dopamine increase (through stimulation and reduced MAO production) means that the baseline dopamine level in a smoker changes. That's why you feel shitty once you stop smoking. Once you're that far —and we're only talking days— smoking is not getting you a desirable outcome, it's merely returning you to your new baseline dopamine level. Simply put, it's just too addictive to be used recreationally.
    - jf- 8y ago
      You're just reiterating the received wisdom on drug tolerance: you have to take more to get the same effect. On that, some claim to find a ceiling effect to tolerance, that is after a certain dose adaptation no longer takes place and the dose remains effective. Alternatively you can cycle. Your bottom line is an over-simplification. Also, you're now longer making your initial point, that nicotine isn't fun, instead you've moved on to 'the fun wears off or you'll need to consume more to get the same effect'.

by jf- 8y ago

komali2 8y ago

Drinking gets you buzz, marijuana gets you all sorts of different kinds of highs depending on the strain, tobacco gets you... Kind of a little more awake I guess? I don't remember any positive side effects of smoking other than companionship with other smokers when I step outside, which I could easily get by just walking up and saying hello.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Pyxl101 8y ago
Nicotine is a nootropic, that is, a drug that has a positive effect on the performance of cognitive tasks involving attention and memory, and may even boost IQ. Starting points for further research: "Nicotine as a cognitive enhancer." (1992): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 "Nicotine treatment of mild cognitive impairment" (2012): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ "Cognitive Effects of Nicotine: Recent Progress." (2018): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 A study measuring higher effective IQ (1994): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf > We therefore hypothesised that nicotine is acting to improve intellectual performance on the elementary information processing correlates of IQ. [W]e tested this hypothesis using the Raven Advanced Progressive Matrices (APM) test. APM scores were significantly higher in the smoking session compared to the non-smoking session, suggesting that nicotine acts to enhance physiological processes underlying performance on intellectual tasks. "Will a Nicotine Patch Make You Smarter?": https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-patch-make-you-smarter-excerpt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-p... These may be reasons why people choose to use it. I've certainly spoken to people who believe they're more productive or effective on nicotine. I don't know what the current research is on whether these benefits are short-term only or can be sustained long-term. I'm not an expert on this - I'm just casually interested in nootroptics. I don't consume nicotine or tobacco. There is also debate about how addictive nicotine is by itself. While tobacco is extremely addictive, there is evidence that nicotine, alone, is habit-forming but only mildly addictive or perhaps even nonaddictive (but still habit-forming). Psychopharmacologist Paul Newhouse makes this point in the Scientific American article above. An essay by Gwern Branwen presenting an overview of data on nicotine addiction: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine > My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability An in-depth review and critique of the evidence of nicotine addiction: "A critique of nicotine addiction" (2000): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf > We submit that an objective evaluation of these data leads to the conclusion that [nicotine] is not an addictive drug and that the popularized equation of the addictive properties of nicotine [...] has little to do with science.
- PascLeRasc 8y ago
  I use nicotine seasonally as an antidepressant for SAD. This is my second winter doing this - when it got warm and sunny last spring I didn't even think about my vape - I just used it for 30 seconds in the morning for a few days, then put it away until October. I much prefer this to having to cycle off a "real" antidepressant like Wellbutrin like my doctor wants me to.
pisky 8y ago
The few people I know who still smoke do it for stress and weight issues. I have casually mentioned a few healthier alternatives to them but none seem receptive so maybe there are other, more personal reasons.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  Most "Healthy Alternatives" completely miss the point - assuming things like eating a carrot stick is going to be at all the same as inhaling a chemical when one is stressed or hungry or that taking up knitting is going to be a perfect substitute for a mindless habit.
  - pisky 8y ago
    I was thinking more along the lines of meditation for stress, and IF for weight loss. I've seen both work well amongst non smokers, so hoped they could work for smokers too.
throwaway52975 8y ago
The best analogy I can give is to salt in food. Nobody would eat a teaspoon full of salt, but it makes everything else taste better. Nicotine is subtly but profoundly pleasurable; when inhaled, it delivers an instant and substantial hit of dopamine that noticeably enhances the context it is experienced in. Nicotine relieves fatigue, it lifts the mood, it suppresses hunger, it paradoxically induces both stimulation and relaxation. It's your morning cup of coffee, only infinitely more so. Even the addiction is, in a strange sense, pleasurable. A nicotine craving is a purely objectified need that can be satisfied in a very direct and immediate way; that is a powerful experience if you have other important needs that cannot be satisfied. I might be miserable at work, I might be depressed and anxious in ways that do not respond to drugs or psychotherapy, I might be poor and lonely and justifiably hopeless about the future, but this one specific need of mine can always be satisfied with a pack of smokes or a Juul and a five minute break. When you have very limited control over your circumstances, cigarettes give you some modicum of control over your mood. If you have never felt completely trapped by your circumstances, it is difficult to express how significantly that sliver of control can affect your sense of self. The sociability of smoking simply cannot be emulated in any other way, because the act of smoking itself provides a profound sense of communality. Non-smokers do not and cannot understand why the smokers choose to huddle outside, which is precisely why we feel able to start conversations with complete strangers. We are bound together by a bewitching, maddening and frequently lifelong relationship with a very peculiar alkaloid. I believe that nicotine has, for entirely respectable reasons, been demonized by the anti-smoking lobby; it has been characterised as a completely pointless drug that persists only because of the aggressive marketing of tobacco companies and its highly addictive nature. I would argue that the potent addictive potential of nicotine is a product of its potent psychoactive effect and the complex role it plays in the life of smokers. E-cigarette users see e-cigarettes as a potentially lifesaving technology that satisfies a profound psychological need. I do not wish to endorse e-cigarettes, I certainly would not encourage anyone to take up nicotine use, but I would beg for some modicum of empathy on the part of non-smokers towards their nicotine-dependent peers.
- jimpudar 8y ago
  This is an incredibly well written comment. One of my best friends is a two pack a day smoker, and when I ask him why he doesn't even _want_ to quit, he has (less eloquently) given me a lot of these reasons. He doesn't have a lot of control over his circumstances, and I can definitely understand the sense of control you can get from satisfying a nicotine craving. He's also mentioned the social aspect quite a few times. He frequently tells me that the best times in his life have all been smoking cigarettes. My issue is that he is undoubtedly going to suffer major health problems, likely dying much earlier than he would have head it not been for the two pack a day habit. He knows this, and routinely jokes about dying before he hits thirty. I don't know if he really understands how young thirty is. I do have empathy for him, but I love him very much and hate to see the damage he is doing to himself...

chii 8y ago

> Let's not become the 'no fun allowed' society. i might draw the line at addictiveness. But then caffeine is also mildly addictive...

mevile 8y ago
Pretty much anyone can quit caffeine in a week, easily. Nicotine is not in even in the same ballpark in terms of addictiveness based on my anecdotal experience. There's absolutely no way I am OK with something as addicting as nicotine being marketed to children. Teenagers are children and I'm happy the government is pursuing vaping such as it is.
- baddox 8y ago
  Anyone can quit caffeine forever by not drinking caffeine for a week? I know a lot more people who have quit smoking forever (so far) than people who have quit caffeine.
  - sp332 8y ago
    You can get over the chemical dependency on caffeine in a week to ten days, if you go more-or-less cold turkey and put up with the headaches. The psychological dependency might be trickier.
    - baddox 8y ago
      In my experience the side effects of caffeine withdrawal are much much worse than for nicotine (cigarettes). Both last a week or two.
      - sp332 8y ago
        A slow taper off of caffeine is much more comfortable, even if it does take longer. Can't really speak to the nicotine side.
      - rwnspace 8y ago

smallnamespace 8y ago

> far less damaging E-cigarette vapor disables key immune cells in the lung and boosts inflammation: Effects similar to those seen in regular smokers and patients with chronic lung disease. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180813190148.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180813190148.h... E-cigs shut down hundreds of immune system genes—regular cigs don’t https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/02/e-cigs-shut-down-hundreds-of-immune-system-genes-regular-cigs-dont/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/02/e-cigs-shut-down-hun... Widely used e-cigarette flavoring impairs lung function https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180523172310.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180523172310.h... It may turn out that e-cigarettes are, on the balance, safer than cigarettes, however it's way too early to make that claim with any level of certainty. Realistically, we're probably going to find out through long-term longitudinal studies in a few decades.

jf- 8y ago
> It may turn out that e-cigarettes are, on the balance, safer than cigarettes, however it's way too early to make that claim with any level of certainty. No, it isn't. Tobacco contains 70 known human carcinogens and is known to directly cause lung cancer. No one is claiming that vaping causes cancer. The possibility that's being raised is that after decades of use vaping may cause lung disease. I know which is worse. And importantly, as you say, the matter in unsettled and it is just as likely that it does not. Is your point that it should be pre-emptively banned, just in case?
- clumsysmurf 8y ago
  > No one is claiming that vaping causes cancer "To evaluate possible long-term effects of vaping, the team assessed DNA damage in the cells of the volunteers' mouths." "Dator and Balbo identified three DNA-damaging compounds, formaldehyde, acrolein and methylglyoxal, whose levels increased in the saliva after vaping." "Compared with people who don't vape, four of the five e-cigarette users showed increased DNA damage related to acrolein exposure." "E-cigarettes can damage DNA" https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-e-cigarettes-dna.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-e-cigarettes-dna.html

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

kizer 8y ago

Are you twelve years old? You want to have fun fun fun. Me no like the no fun society. Any company connected to big tobacco should be erased forever.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago

Although I agree with you in general, I feel like I have to raise some points... Unless I've missed something, the evidence for red meat being a carcinogen is actually still up for debate and it's nowhere near conclusive. I've skimmed some sources making this claim, but I wasn't convinced by their research methodology. I've discussed the weed issue enough times that I luckily have this article [0] in my bookmarks, which analyses our current knowledge. I'm not aware of any more modern article which does the same in-depth analysis on the state of things. I won't claim that weed is a magical drug without any kind of side-effects, but the research on its impact still seems fairly young. My key take-away from the linked article was that young people should probably avoid regular usage, maybe aside from trying it out once or twice. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604177/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4604177/

jf- 8y ago
> but I wasn't convinced by their research methodology This is the problem with all of science, or at least the popular discussion of it. Things get presented in little bite-sized chunks stripped of all context. It's significant effort to read the original papers and supporting papers and decide for yourself, and that's neglecting the domain knowledge that's required to do that properly. On top of that there are conflicting results where even experts may disagree. All you can do is wait for a consensus position to emerge.

EamonnMR 8y ago

If they weren't going to switch to cigarettes as soon as Juul gets banned I'd agree.

kizer 8y ago

https://imgur.com/a/i9rWJbb https://imgur.com/a/i9rWJbb

oliwarner 8y ago

But nicotine isn't "fun". You think it's cool and by the time you realise it's not, you are physically dependant on it to function. At least alcohol and marijuana do something.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ryanmercer 8y ago
>You think it's cool and by the time you realise it's not, Which is why vaping is so dangerous. If you can think of a flavor, it's available. No flavor, cigar, blueberry pie, chocolate brownies, etc. More flavors than a shaved ice stand. Unlike cigarettes where you have "nauseating burnt paper" and "menthol nauseating burnt paper".
jf- 8y ago
Nicotine does do something, it gives you a dopamine hit. It feels good. It doesn’t cause impairment like weed and alcohol if that’s what you mean by “doing something”, but you can definitely feel it. Even if you personally don’t respond to it, others do.
- oliwarner 8y ago
  It does that to begin with, but this dopamine increase (through stimulation and reduced MAO production) means that the baseline dopamine level in a smoker changes. That's why you feel shitty once you stop smoking. Once you're that far —and we're only talking days— smoking is not getting you a desirable outcome, it's merely returning you to your new baseline dopamine level. Simply put, it's just too addictive to be used recreationally.
  - jf- 8y ago
    You're just reiterating the received wisdom on drug tolerance: you have to take more to get the same effect. On that, some claim to find a ceiling effect to tolerance, that is after a certain dose adaptation no longer takes place and the dose remains effective. Alternatively you can cycle. Your bottom line is an over-simplification. Also, you're now longer making your initial point, that nicotine isn't fun, instead you've moved on to 'the fun wears off or you'll need to consume more to get the same effect'.