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In somewhat related news, the US almost managed to get rid of teenage smoking, but Juul has been so successful that teenage smoking is back at the level of ro

In somewhat related news, the US almost managed to get rid of teenage smoking, but Juul has been so successful that teenage smoking is back at the level of roughly 15 years ago. https://twitter.com/themehakvohra/status/1076433054099492864 https://twitter.com/themehakvohra/status/1076433054099492864 This is not a 'good' company.

exabrial 8y ago
Smoking cigarettes?
- userbinator 8y ago
  From the graph in the parent post, it looks like Juuling, not "real" (as in inhale-burning-tobacco) smoking.
  - naikrovek 8y ago
    Just as addicting, though. And it's just as much of a customer retention strategy as it ever was.
    - eatitraw 8y ago
      IIRC, vaping pure nicotine might be less addictive than smoking tobacco because tobacco contains a ton of other chemicals
    - mullingitover 8y ago
      Nicotine in e-liquid lacks the MAOIs that tobacco contains, so it's a stretch to claim it is equally addictive. See: https://www.nature.com/articles/1300987 https://www.nature.com/articles/1300987
jf- 8y ago
I think we're in danger of attaching the stigma of tobacco to something which is far less damaging. Vaping need not be zero harm for it to be socially acceptable; research shows that there is no safe level of alcohol consumption, that red meat is carcinogenic, and I imagine that despite recent legalisation efforts marijuana poses a health threat. Let's not become the 'no fun allowed' society.
- komali2 8y ago
  Drinking gets you buzz, marijuana gets you all sorts of different kinds of highs depending on the strain, tobacco gets you... Kind of a little more awake I guess? I don't remember any positive side effects of smoking other than companionship with other smokers when I step outside, which I could easily get by just walking up and saying hello.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Pyxl101 8y ago
    Nicotine is a nootropic, that is, a drug that has a positive effect on the performance of cognitive tasks involving attention and memory, and may even boost IQ. Starting points for further research: "Nicotine as a cognitive enhancer." (1992): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 "Nicotine treatment of mild cognitive impairment" (2012): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ "Cognitive Effects of Nicotine: Recent Progress." (2018): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 A study measuring higher effective IQ (1994): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf > We therefore hypothesised that nicotine is acting to improve intellectual performance on the elementary information processing correlates of IQ. [W]e tested this hypothesis using the Raven Advanced Progressive Matrices (APM) test. APM scores were significantly higher in the smoking session compared to the non-smoking session, suggesting that nicotine acts to enhance physiological processes underlying performance on intellectual tasks. "Will a Nicotine Patch Make You Smarter?": https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-patch-make-you-smarter-excerpt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-p... These may be reasons why people choose to use it. I've certainly spoken to people who believe they're more productive or effective on nicotine. I don't know what the current research is on whether these benefits are short-term only or can be sustained long-term. I'm not an expert on this - I'm just casually interested in nootroptics. I don't consume nicotine or tobacco. There is also debate about how addictive nicotine is by itself. While tobacco is extremely addictive, there is evidence that nicotine, alone, is habit-forming but only mildly addictive or perhaps even nonaddictive (but still habit-forming). Psychopharmacologist Paul Newhouse makes this point in the Scientific American article above. An essay by Gwern Branwen presenting an overview of data on nicotine addiction: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine > My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability An in-depth review and critique of the evidence of nicotine addiction: "A critique of nicotine addiction" (2000): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf > We submit that an objective evaluation of these data leads to the conclusion that [nicotine] is not an addictive drug and that the popularized equation of the addictive properties of nicotine [...] has little to do with science.
kevindong 8y ago
To be fair, vaping is probably safer than smoking actual cigarettes. That being said, vaping/Juul has undone a decade of progress in reducing teen smoking. It should not be celebrated. I don't understand anyone that intentionally starts vaping. I'm a senior in college and Juuls are fairly common on campus, so it's not just a high school/teenager thing.
- iak8god 8y ago
  > vaping/Juul has undone a decade of progress in reducing teen smoking How much of that reduction in smoking is because of teens who would otherwise be smoking but are now vaping instead?
  - yzmtf2008 8y ago
    Just look at the chart? It’s pretty obvious that smoking is consistently declining, while vaping started at a low point of smoking.
    - iak8god 8y ago
      Pretty much every year on that chart is a low point for cigarette smoking compared the years that preceded it. Note that 2015 is not when teens started vaping. It's when whoever collected this data started paying attention to vaping. I'd rather teenagers weren't using any tobacco products whatsoever, but I'm pretty sure inhaling vaporized ecig juice is much better for people's health than cigarette smoke.
      - gomox 8y ago
        > I'm pretty sure inhaling vaporized ecig juice is much better for people's health than cigarette smoke. I've seen this thinking many times in this thread. How is this so? Smoking seemed harmless in the 1950s as well.
        hopler 8y ago
b1r6 8y ago
I don't understand - are you saying vaping == smoking? This equality test fails.
- kizer 8y ago
  Dear b1r6, We are currently discussing a non-programming topic. Your mind seems to be stuck in a source code thought trap, because you posted a bizarre, meaningless comment. No one has equated vaping with smoking. Please try harder on your next attempt at a meaningful contribution.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    > No one has equated vaping with smoking. You need to reread the first comment, which says that "teen smoking" is sharply rising. At least try to be correct if you're going to put so much effort into being rude...
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't do this here.
    - kizer 8y ago
      I apologize - I’d actually had a few drinks (irony... I know) when commenting on this submission. Maybe I was more upset at myself. Happy new year, everyone.
tootie 8y ago
Thank You for Smoking
walrus01 8y ago
In other news, Altria (Philip Morris), the giant tobacco company, has just spent billions to invest in Canadian legal weed. Ugh. This is the exact sort of thing that a bunch of hardcore legalization activists predicted in Canada 20 years ago. I can't imagine the product will be very good, but it'll have the best marketing imaginable, within the legal limits. https://business.financialpost.com/investing/altria-to-invest-1-8-bln-in-canadian-cannabis-producer-cronos https://business.financialpost.com/investing/altria-to-inves...
Solar19 8y ago
People should be free to live their lives.
ReptileMan 8y ago
Since any company is depending on hooking their clients to something - chemical or social there are too few good companies. I think we should evaluate the things on fun/harm scale.
decebalus1 8y ago
As a former smoker and vaper I find Juul and the whole e-cig business wicked. I stopped smoking and started vaping in 2012 and years later I realized I replaced a nasty habit with what was basically a hobby. I was never enthusiastic about smoking but I became increasingly enthusiastic about flavors and coils and all that crap. I was consuming way more nicotine than when I was smoking cigarettes. I noticed that when I chained 2 cigarettes after not smoking for 3 years and right after, I continued vaping with my mod for another 5 minutes. The moment I realized that I started vaping unflavored juice and stopped completely shortly after. It was never supposed to be cool and pleasant, it was supposed to stop me from being a smoker. In my opinion it's a good cessation device but the way it's marketed and how the whole industry is behaving just doesn't sit well with me. I totally get why teenagers are into it. It doesn't smell, it's pretty cool. I remember when I started smoking as a teenager, I had to chew mint gum and do all sorts of crazy things with perfumes to hide my habit from my parents. If I had Juul it would have been awesome.
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  >As a former smoker and vaper I find Juul and the whole e-cig business wicked. I stopped smoking and started vaping in 2012 and years later I realized I replaced a nasty habit with what was basically a hobby. I wasn't a smoker at all, aside from on occasional pipe or cigar. Around the same time I got into it too, there were very few mods back then but you had companies like "Ms. T's Bakery" that had tons of dessert type flavors. I'd sit there with my ego with a drip tip, puff, puff, puffing away at my desk mindlessly while I gamed. I'd puff, puff, puff away with friends. I started taking it to work and ducking into the bathroom to puff some brownies or blueberry soda. One day I was playing an FPS and realized I didn't feel good at all, I'd had about 40$ of juice in maybe 6 hours, I had nicotine poisoning because I just wanted to keep tasting the flavors. The few people that vape at work, all of them have super-fruity juices, I have to imagine that the flavor is some of what keeps them at it. I have a friend that is unemployed, trying to get disability, but he has probably 300$ in his vaping rig and the first thing he does when he gets some money from something it goes and gets more juice. Before food, before his precious mountain dew, before anything else he runs off to go fill his tanks. Always flavors.
jrs95 8y ago
Aside from vaping being less harmful than cigarettes, kids were vaping long before Juul was popular. They are not responsible for this trend; they're just an inevitable improvement upon semi-disposable e-cigarettes. This argument also completely ignores the beneficial aspects of Juul. It is far more effective at helping smokers quit than most other products. To focus in on "save the children!" fear mongering while ignoring the primary benefit of vaping is dishonest and helps no one.
namlem 8y ago
Teenage smoking is not back. Teenage nicotine use is back, which is not the same.

exabrial 8y ago

Smoking cigarettes?

userbinator 8y ago
From the graph in the parent post, it looks like Juuling, not "real" (as in inhale-burning-tobacco) smoking.
- naikrovek 8y ago
  Just as addicting, though. And it's just as much of a customer retention strategy as it ever was.
  - eatitraw 8y ago
    IIRC, vaping pure nicotine might be less addictive than smoking tobacco because tobacco contains a ton of other chemicals
  - mullingitover 8y ago
    Nicotine in e-liquid lacks the MAOIs that tobacco contains, so it's a stretch to claim it is equally addictive. See: https://www.nature.com/articles/1300987 https://www.nature.com/articles/1300987

jf- 8y ago

I think we're in danger of attaching the stigma of tobacco to something which is far less damaging. Vaping need not be zero harm for it to be socially acceptable; research shows that there is no safe level of alcohol consumption, that red meat is carcinogenic, and I imagine that despite recent legalisation efforts marijuana poses a health threat. Let's not become the 'no fun allowed' society.

komali2 8y ago
Drinking gets you buzz, marijuana gets you all sorts of different kinds of highs depending on the strain, tobacco gets you... Kind of a little more awake I guess? I don't remember any positive side effects of smoking other than companionship with other smokers when I step outside, which I could easily get by just walking up and saying hello.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Pyxl101 8y ago
  Nicotine is a nootropic, that is, a drug that has a positive effect on the performance of cognitive tasks involving attention and memory, and may even boost IQ. Starting points for further research: "Nicotine as a cognitive enhancer." (1992): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1579636 "Nicotine treatment of mild cognitive impairment" (2012): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466669/ "Cognitive Effects of Nicotine: Recent Progress." (2018): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29110618 A study measuring higher effective IQ (1994): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/1994-stough.pdf > We therefore hypothesised that nicotine is acting to improve intellectual performance on the elementary information processing correlates of IQ. [W]e tested this hypothesis using the Raven Advanced Progressive Matrices (APM) test. APM scores were significantly higher in the smoking session compared to the non-smoking session, suggesting that nicotine acts to enhance physiological processes underlying performance on intellectual tasks. "Will a Nicotine Patch Make You Smarter?": https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-patch-make-you-smarter-excerpt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-p... These may be reasons why people choose to use it. I've certainly spoken to people who believe they're more productive or effective on nicotine. I don't know what the current research is on whether these benefits are short-term only or can be sustained long-term. I'm not an expert on this - I'm just casually interested in nootroptics. I don't consume nicotine or tobacco. There is also debate about how addictive nicotine is by itself. While tobacco is extremely addictive, there is evidence that nicotine, alone, is habit-forming but only mildly addictive or perhaps even nonaddictive (but still habit-forming). Psychopharmacologist Paul Newhouse makes this point in the Scientific American article above. An essay by Gwern Branwen presenting an overview of data on nicotine addiction: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine > My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability An in-depth review and critique of the evidence of nicotine addiction: "A critique of nicotine addiction" (2000): https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2002-frenkdar.pdf > We submit that an objective evaluation of these data leads to the conclusion that [nicotine] is not an addictive drug and that the popularized equation of the addictive properties of nicotine [...] has little to do with science.

kevindong 8y ago

To be fair, vaping is probably safer than smoking actual cigarettes. That being said, vaping/Juul has undone a decade of progress in reducing teen smoking. It should not be celebrated. I don't understand anyone that intentionally starts vaping. I'm a senior in college and Juuls are fairly common on campus, so it's not just a high school/teenager thing.

iak8god 8y ago
> vaping/Juul has undone a decade of progress in reducing teen smoking How much of that reduction in smoking is because of teens who would otherwise be smoking but are now vaping instead?
- yzmtf2008 8y ago
  Just look at the chart? It’s pretty obvious that smoking is consistently declining, while vaping started at a low point of smoking.
  - iak8god 8y ago
    Pretty much every year on that chart is a low point for cigarette smoking compared the years that preceded it. Note that 2015 is not when teens started vaping. It's when whoever collected this data started paying attention to vaping. I'd rather teenagers weren't using any tobacco products whatsoever, but I'm pretty sure inhaling vaporized ecig juice is much better for people's health than cigarette smoke.
    - gomox 8y ago
      > I'm pretty sure inhaling vaporized ecig juice is much better for people's health than cigarette smoke. I've seen this thinking many times in this thread. How is this so? Smoking seemed harmless in the 1950s as well.
      - hopler 8y ago

b1r6 8y ago

I don't understand - are you saying vaping == smoking? This equality test fails.

kizer 8y ago
Dear b1r6, We are currently discussing a non-programming topic. Your mind seems to be stuck in a source code thought trap, because you posted a bizarre, meaningless comment. No one has equated vaping with smoking. Please try harder on your next attempt at a meaningful contribution.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  > No one has equated vaping with smoking. You need to reread the first comment, which says that "teen smoking" is sharply rising. At least try to be correct if you're going to put so much effort into being rude...
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't do this here.
  - kizer 8y ago
    I apologize - I’d actually had a few drinks (irony... I know) when commenting on this submission. Maybe I was more upset at myself. Happy new year, everyone.

tootie 8y ago

Thank You for Smoking

walrus01 8y ago

In other news, Altria (Philip Morris), the giant tobacco company, has just spent billions to invest in Canadian legal weed. Ugh. This is the exact sort of thing that a bunch of hardcore legalization activists predicted in Canada 20 years ago. I can't imagine the product will be very good, but it'll have the best marketing imaginable, within the legal limits. https://business.financialpost.com/investing/altria-to-invest-1-8-bln-in-canadian-cannabis-producer-cronos https://business.financialpost.com/investing/altria-to-inves...

Solar19 8y ago

People should be free to live their lives.

ReptileMan 8y ago

Since any company is depending on hooking their clients to something - chemical or social there are too few good companies. I think we should evaluate the things on fun/harm scale.

decebalus1 8y ago

As a former smoker and vaper I find Juul and the whole e-cig business wicked. I stopped smoking and started vaping in 2012 and years later I realized I replaced a nasty habit with what was basically a hobby. I was never enthusiastic about smoking but I became increasingly enthusiastic about flavors and coils and all that crap. I was consuming way more nicotine than when I was smoking cigarettes. I noticed that when I chained 2 cigarettes after not smoking for 3 years and right after, I continued vaping with my mod for another 5 minutes. The moment I realized that I started vaping unflavored juice and stopped completely shortly after. It was never supposed to be cool and pleasant, it was supposed to stop me from being a smoker. In my opinion it's a good cessation device but the way it's marketed and how the whole industry is behaving just doesn't sit well with me. I totally get why teenagers are into it. It doesn't smell, it's pretty cool. I remember when I started smoking as a teenager, I had to chew mint gum and do all sorts of crazy things with perfumes to hide my habit from my parents. If I had Juul it would have been awesome.

ryanmercer 8y ago
>As a former smoker and vaper I find Juul and the whole e-cig business wicked. I stopped smoking and started vaping in 2012 and years later I realized I replaced a nasty habit with what was basically a hobby. I wasn't a smoker at all, aside from on occasional pipe or cigar. Around the same time I got into it too, there were very few mods back then but you had companies like "Ms. T's Bakery" that had tons of dessert type flavors. I'd sit there with my ego with a drip tip, puff, puff, puffing away at my desk mindlessly while I gamed. I'd puff, puff, puff away with friends. I started taking it to work and ducking into the bathroom to puff some brownies or blueberry soda. One day I was playing an FPS and realized I didn't feel good at all, I'd had about 40$ of juice in maybe 6 hours, I had nicotine poisoning because I just wanted to keep tasting the flavors. The few people that vape at work, all of them have super-fruity juices, I have to imagine that the flavor is some of what keeps them at it. I have a friend that is unemployed, trying to get disability, but he has probably 300$ in his vaping rig and the first thing he does when he gets some money from something it goes and gets more juice. Before food, before his precious mountain dew, before anything else he runs off to go fill his tanks. Always flavors.

jrs95 8y ago

Aside from vaping being less harmful than cigarettes, kids were vaping long before Juul was popular. They are not responsible for this trend; they're just an inevitable improvement upon semi-disposable e-cigarettes. This argument also completely ignores the beneficial aspects of Juul. It is far more effective at helping smokers quit than most other products. To focus in on "save the children!" fear mongering while ignoring the primary benefit of vaping is dishonest and helps no one.

namlem 8y ago

Teenage smoking is not back. Teenage nicotine use is back, which is not the same.