7 ms·

About as scary as my Tesla on autopilot going around a curve at 75mph. Every time I ask myself, what if there is a bug or if it turns off...

randall 8y ago
The downside risk is never worth it for me. I'm always hands on, and curves I treat it like a drivers' ed situation: You better do the right thing.
- cheald 8y ago
  Yeah, I tell people that I treat it like a well-mannered 15-year-old driver - I expect it'll do the right thing, but I'm here to take over in case it finds itself out of its depth.
weberc2 8y ago
Pretty much every critical system in a vanilla Toyota is already software-controlled, not to mention the legion of critical systems involved in air travel, elevators, medical equipment (e.g., pacemakers), etc. Not sure that this should bring comfort, but at least you need not be particularly frightened by your Tesla. :)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- darkerside 8y ago
  Aren't brakes and steering mostly manual? I don't think it's the right advice to tell people to trust Autopilot when it's failed in several egregious ways.
  - TylerE 8y ago
    Steering is electronic.
    - jgibson 8y ago
      Electronically assisted, but still mechanically coupled for 99% of consumer cars. I've completely lost 12V on a car before and still managed to bring it safely to the side of the road. Inifinity tried steer-by-wire but ended up retrofitting traditional hydraulic steering back.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire
    - chii 8y ago
      sterring is electric, but there's always a backup system in case the electronics fail: https://youtu.be/em1O8mz7sF0?t=276 https://youtu.be/em1O8mz7sF0?t=276
  - jgibson 8y ago
    They are manual in the sense that there is a physical connection: the steering wheel is usually mechanically coupled with the steering rack, brakes usually through through hydraulics. That said there are probably 5-20 systems in a car that can completely control these systems without any human input. Think of automatic emergency braking, traction control, vehicle stability control for the brakes, and autopark + powered steering for the steering. Most of these systems have multiple redundancy and isolated monitors (eg, if autopark is on and the vehicle speed is > 10mph, the monitor will intervene) but there are still probably some theoretical situations where this could occur
- mhh__ 8y ago
  Driving a car on the road with other cars is - factoring in the age of the tech, lack of regulation, involvement of humans and the consequences if it goes wrong - more difficult that what's mentioned on your list.
- Retric 8y ago
  Elevators use simple physical safety systems. Which is why you see headlines like: "Skyscraper elevator plunges 84 floors — and everyone survives" https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/elevator-plunge-chicago-1.4913707 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/elevator-plunge-chicago-1.4913...
  - bleomycin 8y ago
    Every link i’ve seen to this story annoys the hell out of me because they don’t explain HOW the elevator eventually stopped. That’s literally all I want to know.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
      It reached the bottom. Probably hit one of these: http://elevation.wikia.com/wiki/Buffers http://elevation.wikia.com/wiki/Buffers Note that it wasn't descending particularly quickly; one cable snapped but other safety systems were still operable.
      - vvillena 8y ago
        The article says it went from the 95th to the 11th floor. It appears it stopped before reaching the bottom buffer.
    - gonzo 8y ago
      Entering “elevator safety mechanism” into google will bring up several links with explainations. The first link for me references this story.
    - nsxwolf 8y ago
      I’d also like to know what they meant by “plunges”. How fast did it descend? Was it in free fall?
      - thaumasiotes 8y ago
        You can easily tell that it wasn't in free fall, because if it fell 84 floors in free fall and then stopped, the passengers would have died.
- foobiekr 8y ago
  there's a huge complexity difference, however.
mhh__ 8y ago
You let it go round a curve at 75mph, or is this hypothetical?
- croon 8y ago
  I think he's referring to a curved piece of highway, not a turn.
damon_c 8y ago
I have used Tesla autopilot on twisty cliffside roads (my hands hovering an inch away). The question in my mind was, when there is "nothing" there, is that a place it thinks is okay to go? Or is it a place a place where it should absolutely not go? I wish it could just tell me that.
- Animats 8y ago
  It doesn't know about dropoffs. It only knows about lane lines. It's really good at following lane lines. Sometimes right into an obstacle.
  - fattire 8y ago
    It knows about the driveable areas even outside the lane lines where it can go in the case of an emergency. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6LV4064bI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6LV4064bI
gumby 8y ago
Consider not going on a modern airliner. Every commercial passenger jet since the A340 has been fly-by-wire. (military jets have been so longer).
- jolmg 8y ago
  But you have more time to react on a plane and switch to manual override. It's not like people fly with just a few meters distance to other airplanes. There's also a good distance to the only other thing you can crash into, the ground, as opposed to driving between walls or with a cliff to one side.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - hexane360 8y ago
    OP said "fly by wire", meaning there's no non electronic systems to fall back on. If the electronics fail there's no "manual override".
    - vvillena 8y ago
      Of course there's a fallback. If the fly-by-wire system fails, there's another whole fly-by-wire system ready to take over. Usually this is safer than the old redundant hydraulics systems where all the lines ran close together, making them vulnerable to localized impact damage and fire.
      - hexane360 8y ago
        I specifically said "non-electronic" fallback.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bdavis__ 8y ago
  737 Looks like cables, air, and hydraulics to me.
zaroth 8y ago
I know exactly what you mean. I will admit at 20mph over the speed limit going over a poorly maintained curve on the Mass Pike I usually just disengage for a moment and then switch it back on. It can take the curve, but it doesn’t feel good to let it. I’ve had it lose tracking on the highway. It just leaves the wheel in the last position and beeps very urgently to let you know to take over. I find autopilot helps me become more aware and less fatigued while driving. It’s a level 2 system. There is never a question of losing engagement as an active driver like what happens with level 3 self driving. It will keep a clearly marked lane better than I can (it’s very precise with staying in the exact middle of the lane and doesn’t cut corner like humans tend to). For stop and go traffic it’s a blessing. It sucks at zipper merging. I’ve had to brake for merging cars more than once, even though they are visible coming into my lane on the HID. That part needs work. And I don’t really trust it to change lanes as I feel like the blind spot detection isn’t quite there either. All said it’s pretty much the most amazing driving tech ever, and the TM3 is most definitely the most amazing driving machine I’ve ever had the pleasure of owning. Just orders of magnitude better handling than I realized was possible. Curves rated at 25mph that I used to take at 45mph in my Infiniti previously with some tire squeal, it can silently tear through at 65mph. I don’t know what the skidpad rating is, but it feels unflappable and body roll is just nonexistent. Actually it’s a bit tricky because you literally feel no complaints or judder or roll all the way up to pulling 100% of traction the tires have to offer. It is quite well mannered once it does start drifting though. Sorry, sorry, I can’t help it. You can guess I’m thrilling at parties.
- azhenley 8y ago
  I rave about how awesome it is too. In stop and go traffic it’s wonderful and rarely asks me to touch the wheel. I don’t like it for lane changing either so I always take over.
- 2stop 8y ago
  The ratings on corners (at least in Australia) are rated based on visibility, not some complicated traction calculation. They factor how far a head you can see, and how much time you need to react. Lots of cars/bikes can obviously tear through them faster. But that means they are just taking much more risk. That said, perhaps auto driving can respond quicker, but I’d imagine that doesn’t change most of those ratings give. The time needed to avoid accidents is largely due to physics not reaction speed.
na85 8y ago
... So don't use it?
ryanmercer 8y ago
>what if there is a bug or if it turns off Right? I have an irrational fear of laser eye surgery because I'm afraid some random component in the machine will fail and cause some sort of over-powered pulse. It's far more realistic a component would fail in a car though and cause the 'brain' to take a shit on itself. Still pretty out there but it would be a very real concern of mine.

randall 8y ago

The downside risk is never worth it for me. I'm always hands on, and curves I treat it like a drivers' ed situation: You better do the right thing.

cheald 8y ago
Yeah, I tell people that I treat it like a well-mannered 15-year-old driver - I expect it'll do the right thing, but I'm here to take over in case it finds itself out of its depth.

weberc2 8y ago

Pretty much every critical system in a vanilla Toyota is already software-controlled, not to mention the legion of critical systems involved in air travel, elevators, medical equipment (e.g., pacemakers), etc. Not sure that this should bring comfort, but at least you need not be particularly frightened by your Tesla. :)

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
darkerside 8y ago
Aren't brakes and steering mostly manual? I don't think it's the right advice to tell people to trust Autopilot when it's failed in several egregious ways.
- TylerE 8y ago
  Steering is electronic.
  - jgibson 8y ago
    Electronically assisted, but still mechanically coupled for 99% of consumer cars. I've completely lost 12V on a car before and still managed to bring it safely to the side of the road. Inifinity tried steer-by-wire but ended up retrofitting traditional hydraulic steering back.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire
  - chii 8y ago
    sterring is electric, but there's always a backup system in case the electronics fail: https://youtu.be/em1O8mz7sF0?t=276 https://youtu.be/em1O8mz7sF0?t=276
- jgibson 8y ago
  They are manual in the sense that there is a physical connection: the steering wheel is usually mechanically coupled with the steering rack, brakes usually through through hydraulics. That said there are probably 5-20 systems in a car that can completely control these systems without any human input. Think of automatic emergency braking, traction control, vehicle stability control for the brakes, and autopark + powered steering for the steering. Most of these systems have multiple redundancy and isolated monitors (eg, if autopark is on and the vehicle speed is > 10mph, the monitor will intervene) but there are still probably some theoretical situations where this could occur
mhh__ 8y ago
Driving a car on the road with other cars is - factoring in the age of the tech, lack of regulation, involvement of humans and the consequences if it goes wrong - more difficult that what's mentioned on your list.
Retric 8y ago
Elevators use simple physical safety systems. Which is why you see headlines like: "Skyscraper elevator plunges 84 floors — and everyone survives" https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/elevator-plunge-chicago-1.4913707 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/elevator-plunge-chicago-1.4913...
- bleomycin 8y ago
  Every link i’ve seen to this story annoys the hell out of me because they don’t explain HOW the elevator eventually stopped. That’s literally all I want to know.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    It reached the bottom. Probably hit one of these: http://elevation.wikia.com/wiki/Buffers http://elevation.wikia.com/wiki/Buffers Note that it wasn't descending particularly quickly; one cable snapped but other safety systems were still operable.
    - vvillena 8y ago
      The article says it went from the 95th to the 11th floor. It appears it stopped before reaching the bottom buffer.
  - gonzo 8y ago
    Entering “elevator safety mechanism” into google will bring up several links with explainations. The first link for me references this story.
  - nsxwolf 8y ago
    I’d also like to know what they meant by “plunges”. How fast did it descend? Was it in free fall?
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      You can easily tell that it wasn't in free fall, because if it fell 84 floors in free fall and then stopped, the passengers would have died.
foobiekr 8y ago
there's a huge complexity difference, however.

mhh__ 8y ago

You let it go round a curve at 75mph, or is this hypothetical?

croon 8y ago
I think he's referring to a curved piece of highway, not a turn.

damon_c 8y ago

I have used Tesla autopilot on twisty cliffside roads (my hands hovering an inch away). The question in my mind was, when there is "nothing" there, is that a place it thinks is okay to go? Or is it a place a place where it should absolutely not go? I wish it could just tell me that.

Animats 8y ago
It doesn't know about dropoffs. It only knows about lane lines. It's really good at following lane lines. Sometimes right into an obstacle.
- fattire 8y ago
  It knows about the driveable areas even outside the lane lines where it can go in the case of an emergency. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6LV4064bI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6LV4064bI

gumby 8y ago

Consider not going on a modern airliner. Every commercial passenger jet since the A340 has been fly-by-wire. (military jets have been so longer).

jolmg 8y ago
But you have more time to react on a plane and switch to manual override. It's not like people fly with just a few meters distance to other airplanes. There's also a good distance to the only other thing you can crash into, the ground, as opposed to driving between walls or with a cliff to one side.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- hexane360 8y ago
  OP said "fly by wire", meaning there's no non electronic systems to fall back on. If the electronics fail there's no "manual override".
  - vvillena 8y ago
    Of course there's a fallback. If the fly-by-wire system fails, there's another whole fly-by-wire system ready to take over. Usually this is safer than the old redundant hydraulics systems where all the lines ran close together, making them vulnerable to localized impact damage and fire.
    - hexane360 8y ago
      I specifically said "non-electronic" fallback.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bdavis__ 8y ago
737 Looks like cables, air, and hydraulics to me.

zaroth 8y ago

I know exactly what you mean. I will admit at 20mph over the speed limit going over a poorly maintained curve on the Mass Pike I usually just disengage for a moment and then switch it back on. It can take the curve, but it doesn’t feel good to let it. I’ve had it lose tracking on the highway. It just leaves the wheel in the last position and beeps very urgently to let you know to take over. I find autopilot helps me become more aware and less fatigued while driving. It’s a level 2 system. There is never a question of losing engagement as an active driver like what happens with level 3 self driving. It will keep a clearly marked lane better than I can (it’s very precise with staying in the exact middle of the lane and doesn’t cut corner like humans tend to). For stop and go traffic it’s a blessing. It sucks at zipper merging. I’ve had to brake for merging cars more than once, even though they are visible coming into my lane on the HID. That part needs work. And I don’t really trust it to change lanes as I feel like the blind spot detection isn’t quite there either. All said it’s pretty much the most amazing driving tech ever, and the TM3 is most definitely the most amazing driving machine I’ve ever had the pleasure of owning. Just orders of magnitude better handling than I realized was possible. Curves rated at 25mph that I used to take at 45mph in my Infiniti previously with some tire squeal, it can silently tear through at 65mph. I don’t know what the skidpad rating is, but it feels unflappable and body roll is just nonexistent. Actually it’s a bit tricky because you literally feel no complaints or judder or roll all the way up to pulling 100% of traction the tires have to offer. It is quite well mannered once it does start drifting though. Sorry, sorry, I can’t help it. You can guess I’m thrilling at parties.

azhenley 8y ago
I rave about how awesome it is too. In stop and go traffic it’s wonderful and rarely asks me to touch the wheel. I don’t like it for lane changing either so I always take over.
2stop 8y ago
The ratings on corners (at least in Australia) are rated based on visibility, not some complicated traction calculation. They factor how far a head you can see, and how much time you need to react. Lots of cars/bikes can obviously tear through them faster. But that means they are just taking much more risk. That said, perhaps auto driving can respond quicker, but I’d imagine that doesn’t change most of those ratings give. The time needed to avoid accidents is largely due to physics not reaction speed.

na85 8y ago

... So don't use it?

ryanmercer 8y ago

>what if there is a bug or if it turns off Right? I have an irrational fear of laser eye surgery because I'm afraid some random component in the machine will fail and cause some sort of over-powered pulse. It's far more realistic a component would fail in a car though and cause the 'brain' to take a shit on itself. Still pretty out there but it would be a very real concern of mine.