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Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell
- CoderRefresh 8y agoI've not read a positive article about Elon Musk for a while now. Why would anyone want to work in places like this?
- onlydeadheroes 8y ago> I find it interesting how many smear pieces against Musk have suddenly surfaced ever since he announced he wanted to take Telsa private again.
- josefx 8y agoWait, again? Did I miss another million dollar weed joke?
- nickik 8y agoProbebly because media articels are not representative of most of what happens. And the difference between a job at a Musk company and at comparable job in a different company is far smaller then it is claimed.
- who-knows95 8y agoi'm honestly stunned, i know he's so passionate and a genius, but this is truly mind boggling.
- ifdefdebug 8y agothe first story in the article makes him look like a jerk who doesnt give a shit for other people's lifes, if true as told...
- skgoa 8y agoI'm honestly amazed to still see people call him a genius in 2018.
- LaGrange 8y agoHe has demonstrated that he played KSP and read the funny parts of Ignition!, and therefore is at least as smart as an average person in IT, and therefore a genius.
- leesec 8y agoI'm honestly amazed people don't think he's a genius after all he has accomplished.
- rightbyte 8y agoWhat's genius about him? He's a great manager, in the sense that he get people to get shit done. Would you call Wayne Gretzky a genius?
- mugwort13 8y agoI find it interesting how many smear pieces against Musk have suddenly surfaced ever since he announced he wanted to take Telsa private again.
- LaGrange 8y ago> “Did you fucking do this?” That sounds like Kim in a factory posing as important. You have to wonder if he even knew what "this" was.
- dkersten 8y agoYay for at-will employment laws... :-( > Over the previous year, he had been living out of a suitcase, putting in 13-hour days, seven days a week. This story is a good reminder not to do this. The company will usually not return the favour, you rarely get properly rewarded for crazy hours, yet it has a major impact on your health (both mental and physical) in the long run. Not worth it. > It was not a 9 to 5 company. People were already working hard; now Musk was implying they needed to do more. No wonder things were going to shit. Nobody can do good work if they don't get enough rest and have too much stress. > Three months after that, it would report profits of $312 million, well beyond Wall Street’s expectations. How much of this money did the employees get for all the overtime they were forced to work? > Tesla, ... that some aspects were “overly dramatized,” “abbreviated,” and “ultimately misleading anecdotes that completely lack essential context.” ... “Elon cares very deeply about the people who work at his companies. ... For the sake of everybody working for him, I really really hope this is true and not just PR firefighting and that the story misrepresented what actually happened. I'm not convinced, based on Musk's twitter outbursts and such, but I still hope this story is mostly false.
- Aromaisn 8y agoWhen working for Tesla I can only assume the dynamic is different. For many it IS worth it, and will work crazy hours without recompense, because in their eyes it pushes humanity further forward. They work for the joy of innovation.
- pell 8y agoI think, this might be true for some people in the beginning, but according to this article and other similar articles, a lot of people are leaving the company. So I'm not so sure this idealism is all that accurate. Also, you don't need to treat your employees with that level of disrespect if you want to "push humanity forward" with them.
- Aromaisn 8y agoPerhaps I kept my comment too brief. I'm not endorsing Musk's behaviour in the slightest; it's abhorrent. I was speaking solely in reference to the initial comment about the obscene hours these employees seem to do, and conjecturing a reason as to how the employee might justify it to themselves.
- m_b 8y agoWow, capitalism (& employement obviously) is shit. What a surprise! Thank you HN to sharing this and reminding us that our great leaders are geniuses but bad to us in the same time and we should get on with it.
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- purplethinking 8y agoIt strikes me that many very successful people are incredibly smart and driven but seem to have the emotional maturity, or personal introspection, of a 10 year old. Maybe it's just a necessary combination for this kind of success, but it's also a bit paradoxical. Case in point: buying 5 mansions in Bel Air when you spend all your time at work, literally sleeping under your desk. Another is insisting on burning the candle at both ends by sleeping 4 hours a night, when it has been proven beyond doubt that it's extremely counter-productive to do so, both in terms of mental ability and overall health.
- kace91 8y agoEmotional development and personal growth don't happen automatically with age. Time and effort must be devoted to it - although for most people that is not an issue because the things that allow you to grow are mostly things that we instinctively seek, like interpersonal relationships. It's a well known fact that people who suffer from severe addictions (drugs, etc) get stuck in the emotional stage of development they were at when the issue started. It wouldn't be crazy to assume that the same effect (to a less extreme degree) will occur for people who devote all their time and effort to very specific facets of their lives. There's also the fact that the usual social feedback and consequences that regular folk are subjected to don't necessarily apply to successful people: They might not ever be challenged by their circle of yes men, they don't depend on other people to survive so critics can be safely ignored, etc.
- RivieraKid 8y agoThis is also true for many unsuccessful people.
- mhermher 8y agoHe doesn't actually spend all his time at the factory. He's mostly in LA. There are people on Twitter who track the flights of his private jet. He's mostly in LA, he'll go to the bay area maybe for a day a week. More rarely to Reno. If he's spending all his time working, it's at SpaceX of anything. But more likely he spends his time at home searching his own name on Twitter. The insane work hours stories are just part of the mythology.
- spuz 8y agoOne day he will catch an employee stealing, fly into a rage and fire the entire workforce. He'll lock the iron gates to the factory and sequester himself from the public eye for several decades sparking all kinds of rumours about his fate. Then one day he'll announce a competition for children to win golden tickets to visit his once grand factory and we'll finally discover the real story of Elon Musk and his Gigafactory.
- grecy 8y ago> Then one day he'll announce a competition for children to win golden tickets to visit his grand factory I feel like this is exactly the kind of quirky thing he'd do anyway, without all that negative stuff.
- InitialLastName 8y ago"Every car has a chance of having a winning ticket in the glove compartment" The only problem is that then they actually have to manufacture enough cars to drive a competition like that.
- InitialLastName 8y agoNot to mention the lobbying costs of making states change their driving age limits so that children can buy cars.
- dkersten 8y agoWhen the self driving cars take over, there’s no reason not to sell to children! Think of all the money to be made!
- donkeyd 8y agoThey're producing 7000 Model 3 a week. That's more than any other electric car currently, as far as I know.
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- paxys 8y ago> Musk “would say ‘I’ve got to fire someone today,’ and I’d say, ‘No you don’t,’ and he’d say, ‘No, no, I just do. I’ve got to fire somebody,’ ” Musk really is the asshole abusive boss who gets a pass because of his media fame. I urge anyone in a situation similar to the employees mentioned in the article to simply quit. Giving up your life and dignity for "the cause" isn't worth it. You aren't changing the world, just killing yourself to make some rich people richer.
- wpietri 8y agoSpeaking of abusive bosses, let me recommend a favorite book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000Q9J0RO https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000Q9J0RO It's Lundy Bancroft's, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men". It's the single most astute thing I've ever read. The guy spent more than a decade as a counselor for abusive men, most of them ordered to him by the courts. It's clear he heard an ocean of bullshit and became very good at seeing through it. It's targeted at domestic abuse, but his insights are so clear and well-explained that it's easy to apply the lessons elsewhere. E.g., a couple of years back my boss got pushed out, so suddenly I was being managed by his boss. I walked out of my first meeting with him wondering what the fuck had just happened; everything I said he jumped on aggressively. But the pattern rang a bell, so I thumbed through the book. He lists a variety of abuser styles, and the one called "Mr. Right" fit him perfectly. In one meeting he hit something like 2/3rds of the items in the checklist. Had I not read that, I would have probably walked away thinking that the problem was me, even though my original boss had been happy with me and my work. Instead, I was prepared for what came next: a couple more abusive meetings and then a surprise, no-notice "layoff" where I and the other manager my boss hired were pushed out. (And where we were asked to sign a no-disparagement clause if we wanted any severance. Seeing it a further abuser-style manipulation, I passed.) Over the years I've given away maybe 15 copies of the book, often to people who were in abusive relationships without recognizing it. If you ever even begin to wonder, I strongly recommend reading the book.
- thisacctforreal 8y agoPerhaps unsurprisingly, there are a lot of parallels to Jobs' Macintosh factory. He was similarly overeager with automation, and even coerced the executives to have the machines painted. Excerpts from Walter Isaacson's biography: https://imgur.com/a/WlJ7wsD https://imgur.com/a/WlJ7wsD Some videos: http://strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/apple-foxconn-strategy-1.htm http://strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/apple-foxconn-stra...
- bitwize 8y agoJobs kind of had a point. Americans appear to have a tolerance for filth and grime in the workplace that people from other developed countries do not. I'm to understand that German auto mechanics, for instance, keep their workplaces spotlessly clean in contrast to the "grease monkeys" that prevail in the USA. And Jobs had always wanted to bring the same style and refinement from the best European product design studios to his own products...
- jswizzy 8y agoI remember reading his biography and the author admits they intended it to be a hit piece in the first chapter.
- rezeroed 8y agoWatching inside spacex there seemed to me to be a very tense and cautious relationship between Musk and people who had to interact with him. Apart from any nerves about launching. This article clarifies what I saw.
- nem000 8y agoI posted this article because I'm really afraid that many young entrepreneurs take Elon Musk (and Steve Jobs, etc.) as role models and get the impression that in order to be successful you have to be an abusive brick. I've recently read Walter Isaacson's "The Innovators" and there seem to be at least a couple of counterexamples (Robert Noyce for instance). Any other examples of tech leaders who lead their companies in a friendly and open manner and are successful despite (or probably because) of that?
- arethuza 8y agoYou see the same debates about military leadership - some very famous military leaders were apparently pretty unpleasant at a personal level - then at the other end of the spectrum you have people like Leonard Cheshire who was tough but thoroughly decent and treated everyone at all levels with respect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire Edit: Worth reading the list of missions he was on then the description of how he led: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire#Cheshire_as_officer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire#Cheshire_as_o...
- WaddyJones 8y agoNo one knows who Leonard Cheshire is so he’s not really on anyone’s spectrum. The military leaders that are household names were all abusive.
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- WhompingWindows 8y agoWhy would anyone get the impression they have to be an abusive brick? No one is claiming that, are you saying young entrepreneurs are sheep and blindly follow Elon's behavioral patterns? This piece is okay, it provides a number of anecdotes by former employees, how do we verify these are accurate and not misleading? They square with some former reports, but do not square with other positive anecdotes I've read. This is the problem with using anecdotes as evidence. In my view, executives and other high-ranking individuals are often mean and unfair due to extreme ambition and very high, sustained stress levels. Could someone without extreme ambition have even gotten to this point with Tesla? Do you recall how many bullshit hit pieces, legal obstacles, and issues there have been standing in Tesla's way?
- RivieraKid 8y agoI used to be neutral or slightly positive about Musk but this year really changed my view on him. He's a pathological liar, attention-seeker, vengeful narcissist, obsessed about his public image who's unable to handle criticism.
- VBprogrammer 8y agoI wonder if he's related to Trump.
- kire2345 8y agoI guess we all have these things in side of us and given the wrong circumstances people let them out. I am definitely compassionate towards Musk, as I for myself have made the experience that stress can bring out very negative sides within you, if you don't stay aware and relaxed to not get carried away of such feelings. It cannot be an apology and hopefully Musk recognizes that it is not his true self acting but stress and anxiety projected on others.
- lovich 8y agoI'd find that argument more compelling if Musk hadn't done this of his own volition and for great personal benefit at the expense of others.
- stuntkite 8y agoWhy would anyone do what he's doing? There is no way to be be in the public eye and manage this and be total. He grew up outside the US is in the cold war being told every day that a dispute between countries he didn't live in would wipe the world clean. Assange grew up in the same hacker environment. Different tracks for sure. The world gave a smart kid nothing but terror. He said he'll fix it AND leave at the same time. A mix of PTSD, pathalogical demand avoidance, giftedness and opportunity. No one that had a brain would want the guys job. I'm not using it as an excuse, he's not a savior. He is doing neat shit, but he wants an unreal hat trick and is just the same as the rest of us on this rock. Even if/when he leaves, it'll all still be with him. I think his cars are fun and rockets are cool, but if I think about the human side... it's more than a bit mad.
- pcunite 8y agoNone of us should aspire to emulate this way to greatness. You'll lose everything and for your reward, people will say, he was successful. If you can ever find someone who does not know you, maybe you could pretend to be different and they might like you, but you won't like yourself.
- withhighprod 8y agoImagine a bunch of equally capable people work 9-9-6 with lower pay. Now I know why China’s engineering and manufacturing growth is wild. No bullshit, take your money and get shit done. You complains? Look, thousands lined up outside. Yeah China nowadays practice social Darwinism
- madengr 8y agoMusk reminds me of the North Korean man-child, touring the factories to dole out his expertise. The only difference is Musk can’t put you in a concentration camp.
- Wiretrip 8y agoI wish more people realised the truth behind the PR construction that is Elon Musk and stop calling him an 'inventor' and 'engineer'. He is neither. He got lucky a few times and has somehow managed to persuade people that he 'invented' Paypal (he didn't - and was in fact sacked when X.com was bought), that he 'invented' the electric car (nope, the Victorians did that), that he 'invented' the Hyperloop (again, the Victorians) and that he 'invented' reusable rockets (again, not him). He is a massive fraud and a paper tiger.
- nickik 8y agoMost of the things you claim that he says he never did say. The idea that he claims that he invented the electric car or reusable rockets is utter nonsense and you will not find one quote that makes that statment. Claiming that he is not an engineer is just more nonsense. He is the chief engineer of the falcon rocket and many people inside and outside of SpaceX have said to be highly impressed with what he does. If you don't like Elon that is fine, but this post is just nonsense.
- Wiretrip 8y agoSorry I should have said 'they' rather than 'he' in referring to those prosletysing his mythos. Also, he is not a qualified engineer, whatever he calls himself. I imagine many of those depending on his good favour are 'impressed with what he has done at SpaceX', including his employees - but designing rockets is not one of those things. I have no personal beef with him, I just object to him being elevated beyond his true abilities.
- ConfusedDog 8y agoWhy would anyone work there if this is the case? I agree that Tesla cars are very futuristic, but glory all goes to the company and Elon. Do employee get like a huge bonus or something if they survived long enough? There's got be a reason this article is not mentioning.
- LaGrange 8y agoThe entire Mars, gonna save the world shtick? It's a recruitment ploy. Most of his claims don't hold up to closer scrutiny, but it's aimed at young tech professionals who _really want_ for their job to make sense, so much, that they're willing to overlook both the evidence it might not _and_ the bad quality of a job offer, just to hook themselves to someone who has a "bright vision." Truth is, much of tech nowadays doesn't even pretend to care about any benefit to society. And spotting a scam, when a part of the scam is literally offering you a sense of self-worth? That requires some rather painful introspection.
- Robotbeat 8y agoDoesn’t hold up? What other company is there is making a bigger impact pushing us to electrify? And the “Mars is a conspiracy” is just not true. Musk can be sincere in his motivations while still not being pleasant to work with.
- LaGrange 8y ago> Doesn’t hold up? What other company is there is making a bigger impact pushing us to electrify? Zurich public transport, every single train company. Claiming electric personal cars are a solution to anything is a joke. > And the “Mars is a conspiracy” is just not true. Musk can be sincere in his motivations while still not being pleasant to work with. I'm sure he's sincere about colonising Mars. It's just that it's a terrible idea and making it appear as a benefit to society requires some significant mental exercises. But ever since at least Lenin it's pretty much common knowledge that just increases commitment amongst the converted.
- matz1 8y agoHis passion, geniuses, quirkiness, and yes that include his "abusive" behavior is exactly the reason why I continue buying tesla stock. I hold no other individual company stock except tsla, everything else is index fund.
- dgut 8y agoPeople like Musk are necessary. You can't create great things without a mind outside of the norm, and a mind outside of the norm is often unstable. Most people wouldn't manage (psychologically) to be in Musk's position, much less get to the point where he is now. It isn't fair (what happened to this engineer), but hardly anything in life is fair. What's important is to realize this and be able to move on. As an engineer in the US, he is already one of the luckiest people on Earth.
- andrew_ 8y agoI agree. Without somewhat maniacal (of the obsessive enthusiasm variety) personalities grand achievements would be difficult to realize. It takes that kind of person. I tend to dislike hatchet-jobs like this article, as they're flush with stories that appear absolutely bonkers on the surface, and very light on detail of positive interactions of any kind. The man may be a bit bananas, but all great men and women are, at least a bit. As a cautionary tale, it's a powerful article. But I hardly see it has objective in it's reporting, and serving a somewhat click-baity audience already dubious of the man.
- dgut 8y agoDefinitely. At a meta level, this is quite dangerous. This deep hatred and misunderstanding of the outcasts will have us shrink as a society. A society of wimps will just be overtaken by another in time. We can't be a civilization without Musks.
- gilrain 8y agoThere are several billion people on this planet. If we push out the asshole savants, then there will be room for the respectful savants who have been there all along. There are too many well-educated, compassionate, clever people out there for “nobody else can do it but this specific abusive asshole” to stand up as an argument.
- dgut 8y agoIf you push out the asshole "savants", you must also say farewell to all great things our civilization has to offer today: art, architecture, literature, technology and so on. Great achievers have rarely been driven by compassion.
- wilonth 8y agoWhy do you guys say this is a negative article about Musk? Did you read the whole of it? It's quite a fair story about the downs and ups of Tesla in the past couple of years, and some of Musk's weird behaviors. In the end, as the article mentioned, Tesla got through the 'production hell', October's financial reports were positive and Musk's emotions went back to (more) normal levels.
- martythemaniak 8y agoFor the last year or so, the mass of Tesla negativity around here at least used to pretend to be around their product or market or finances. Now that they're doing really well, all thats left is a torrent of increasingly comical over-the-top denunciations of Musk.
- ensiferum 8y agoAnd to think that some people think of him like he is/was some sort of demi-god, saviour, genious, mankind's last hope. In fact guys like Musk or Steve Jobs are just arrogant assholes with big egos, happy to take credit for the hard work of all the fruits of their engineers doing bulk of the work.
- meowface 8y agoEven after reading this, I do think Musk genuinely, truly wants to change humanity for the better and believes that that's what he's doing. And I think he actually is to a large extent. But stuff like the examples in this article and his social media behavior show he has no problem regularly being an abusive, cruel, immature, rageful, narcissistic, despotic asshole to individual people to get there - even to the people who've sacrificed and contributed so much to help him get there. I don't think he should be written off entirely, but he has a lot of learning and growing to do.
- sys_64738 8y agoModern day Howard Hughes?
- nuguy 8y agoI find it very strange that I’ve never seen a single article like this about SpaceX. Doesn’t it stand to reason that if musk runs both companies, there would also be a juicy scoop about SpaceX employees and their hardship? I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that Tesla is publicly traded and SpaceX is not. Elon musk was totally rational during the Thai submarine thing. He posted a series of very logical and straightforward suggestions, was then asked by the divers to implement the submarine, and was consequently called a fraud by some random person who had associated himself with the rescue. It was quite rude. Elon responses in kind and in my opinion he was very measured in his reply considering he had just received a very unfair and mean molestation of his character. But all this wired article says is that he called someone a pedo, as if he had lost his mind. A lack of essential context is conspicuously absent.
- danzig13 8y agoSeems pretty damning, but I do wonder without his efforts would as much progress have been made in batteries/electric cars? It is just sad that Tesla could be a much healthier and successful company if all those first string people where still there.