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China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

460 points by crunchiebones 8y ago

rdxm 8y ago
I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! NOT!!!!
aldoushuxley001 8y ago
It's also rumored they actively seek to harvest organs from Falun Gong practictioners...
- chapium 8y ago
  Not rumors, judging by the contents of this article.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
thinkloop 8y ago
any tricks to get full article?
- bognition 8y ago
  Use SciHub https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.k5250 https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.k5250
- pizza 8y ago
  use sci-hub https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 mods delete this comment if it's inappropriate but this is a pretty bewildering release
  - crunchiebones 8y ago
    ah, the link can't be changed.. sorry
- excalibur 8y ago
  > Access this article for 1 day for: £23 / $37 / €30 (inc. VAT) That's one pricey paywall. For a PDF that's apparently slightly over one page.
  - crunchiebones 8y ago
    tried to change the link but it seems like you can only change the title ._.
- tzs 8y ago
  Google "Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China" and it should turn up the website of the panel itself, and a few sites that covered the release of the interim report. The BMJ article is a news article covering that release, not a research article, so the BMJ article has nothing that isn't readily in the other coverage. If you find this report interesting, this Wikipedia article would probably also be interesting [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
- zczc 8y ago
  https://pastebin.com/WvYnX5Vx https://pastebin.com/WvYnX5Vx
hnaccy 8y ago
You can't get much more dystopian or abhorrent than using a political minority as livestock.
- DannyB2 8y ago
  The word 'harvested' is so much nicer than 'stolen'. That makes the 'optics' better. (i feel sick now)
  - jbigelow76 8y ago
    Honestly, I think "harvested" is worse than "stolen". You "steal" from another person, you "harvest" a resource that has no humanity.
  - thinkingkong 8y ago
    On the contrary. Harvesting organs is terrifying.
    - kurthr 8y ago
      Just add one more word... harvesting Human organs, and the alliteration sends a shiver down you spine.
  - ccostes 8y ago
    Is it? In the context of people's organs they're both pretty abhorrent.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - wl 8y ago
    "Stolen" is so much nicer than "murdered."
miles 8y ago
Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
- eric_b 8y ago
  > "According to the reports, political prisoners, mainly Falun Gong practitioners, are being executed "on demand" in order to provide organs to recipients." Wild... I had no idea this was going on. There are a lot of things about China that I disagree with, but this might be the worst thing I've heard so far.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Imagine how much more efficiently the Chinese government could identify involuntary donors if it had better access to people's personal information. Perhaps through a search engine of some kind. One with a harmless-sounding name. Maybe "Dragonfly" would be a good name.
    - trhway 8y ago
      especially if it has significant connection (like through common investors/execs) to a huge database of DNA. > identify involuntary donors err... dissidents. Highest political crime - being a 100%-match for a Central Committee member who needs liver transplant.
    - cabalamat 8y ago
      Google's mission statement is "to organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful". I'm sure we can all be happy if, with the help of Google, China becomes a more harmonious society, without any pesky troublemakers, and that hard-working Chinese Communist Party officials get the transplants they so deserve.
      - reaperducer 8y ago
DeonPenny 8y ago
Crazy that people are just finding this out. They've done this to three major groups of people.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- gotts 8y ago
  which three major groups were you referring to?
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Uyghurs, Falun Gong, non-communists?
    - wollstonecraft 8y ago
      Uyghurs are probably not a tissue match for Han.
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        Uyghurs are more or less half East Asian, half West Eurasian though ethnogenesis is long enough ago that they’re fairly thoroughly mixed. Naively you might expect they’d be half as likely to match Han. It’s probably lower than half but I’d be very surprised if it was less than a quarter. There are six loci that are important for transplant rejection or acceptance though there are hundreds of alleles for those loci[1]. And there are almost certainly more Uyghurs in “re-education camps” than any other group at the moment. If there are ten times as many Uyghurs imprisoned as everyone else combined but they’re 1/4 as likely to be a good transplant match there’ll be 2.5 times as many Uyghurs harvested. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_compl...
    - DeonPenny 8y ago
      Tibetans
jamesjue 8y ago
From the article, "The Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China heard evidence in public in London on 8-10 December. A seven strong panel questioned 30 witnesses, including refugees from China, doctors, and investigators.". Clearly, solid and irrefutable conclusions on such a serious matter only need 3 days of hearing from 30 witnesses.
- ArchTypical 8y ago
  > a serious matter only need 3 days of hearing from 30 witnesses. Making statements about immoral acts by the Chinese government is probably something that takes a little bit of secrecy, security and assurances in the modern era. I have to wonder if you understand the situation.
- theonemind 8y ago
  That seems plausible to me. They had evidence and witnesses, and don't seem to claim exhaustive knowledge of scope or every detail of implementation. Did it happen? Y/N ... three days, 30 witnesses, and evidence, to determine 1 bit of information. Y or N. We got Y. That does not seem far-fetched or necessarily slipshod.
pasbesoin 8y ago
U.S. perspective, writing this. I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut. And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of our relationship (whether speaking at the personal level or the state/economy level) with contemporary China. With our technology, we've enabled and empowered a political and economic structure that has not... "sorted its shit" as part of achieving same. Simultaneously, we've hollowed out our own system -- the checks and balances, as well as raw job counts. The U.S. is far from perfect. Nonetheless, literally, physically "ripping the life" from one person, as a judgement, to benefit another. That is some symbolism. And a hallmark of what our own society has at least publicly considered to be "dystopia". ---- P.S. I responded to a reply with the following, but the child comment was deleted before I finished. It was a more than fair point about what happens (over here), and the opportunity for response allowed me to better qualify the... "us versus them" -- or perhaps lack of a "versus" -- present in my original comment. So, copy/pasta of that reply of mine: My "the U.S. is far from perfect" is an understatement -- one I worried about. I agree with your point, and I find the behaviors you point out abhorrent. Prison for profit; Econ. 101 teaches you what you're going to get from that. The U.S. has, however, been pretty aggressive in regulating organ transplants. When they happen. How limited, hopefully ethical, supplies are distributed. Of course, over this hangs the spectre of economic disparity, corresponding health insurance disparity and health care access... Yes, the U.S. is making plenty of life-altering, life-destroying decisions. The "death panels" that actually exist but don't make it into the political discussion (i.e. not the ginned up political phantoms). And, some of those disparities seem to have been severely exacerbated, domestically -- progress actively reversed -- through off-shoring, outsourcing, and the winner-take-all, short-term reward. As I grow more depressed writing this, well, at least we aren't ripping out "prisoners'" organs -- yet. (We go overseas and buy nice foreigners' kidneys, for that.)
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Indeed. What is the solution? Economic sanctions (I'd argue yes)? UN resolutions? (Useless) Boots on the ground? (Physical force, while preferably a last resort, is always an option). I'm starting to warm to the idea of using tariffs and other punitive measures to drag manufacturing back to US shores.
a-nikolaev 8y ago
The word "substantial" is very vague and a bad sign for any scientific and evidence-based publication. Then, when such news show up while Trump is trying to make his deal with the Chinese and (it seems) even got a hostage recently, this makes me feel a bit suspicious of this article, especially since its content is pay-walled. (I'm not defending organ-harvesting, which was already reported in the past, but the article must be specific about what has or has not happened, and should not use such vague statements.)
- ArchTypical 8y ago
  > The word "substantial" is very vague and a bad sign for any scientific and evidence-based publication. That's true. Have an upvote. There are some troubling stats that can be pulled up in regard to transplant stats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... Admittedly, it's a little backhanded to complain about the accuracy of statistics that are intentionally withheld by a totalitarian dystopian regime. Downvoted, but relevant all the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18611084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18611084
- malmsteen 8y ago
  Tbh you can see a conpiracy everywhere, even with your comment for example: you could be geniunely suspicious. Or you could be a die hard trump supporter who prefer to say its suspicious because you don't like that attacking china whill lead in the future to attacking trump policy. I wonder which one
  - a-nikolaev 8y ago
    Well, if Trump say something about this topic on TV in the next couple of days, then I'm right. In any case, they promise to deliver a full report on that investigation in early 2019, hopefully it will be more informative. (My main point is not that the article might be politically motivated, but that its main statement is very imprecise and allows interpretations.)
- throwba43yt 8y ago
chapium 8y ago
wow... “During the 2000s, analysis of various sources of emerging evidence led to the conclusion that people who practised Falun Gong were being killed to provide the organs fuelling China’s transplant boom. “It is common for Chinese transplant professionals to parrot the Communist Party line saying that those who have been speaking out . . . have a ‘political agenda.’” In 2006 a whistleblower claimed that more than 4000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs at the hospital in China where she worked. Subsequent independent investigators, including David Kilgour, former Canadian secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific, David Matas, an international human rights lawyer, and the investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann, have concluded that such practices occurred
throwawayofis 8y ago
China harvested organs from political prisoners on substantial scale, says tribunal Richard Hurley The BMJ Forced harvesting of organs from prisoners of conscience in China has been “substantial,” says an interim judgment of an independent “people’s tribunal” set up to determine whether the country’s transplantation practices breached international criminal law. The former English judge Geoffrey Nice QC, the tribunal’s chair, said after a three day evidence gathering session, “We, the tribunal members, are all certain, unanimously, beyond reasonable doubt, that in China forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practised for a substantial period of time, involving a very substantial number of victims . . . by state organised or approved organisations or individuals.” The tribunal found that the practices breached the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, including articles 3 (right to life), 6 (recognition as a person before the law), 7 (equality before the law), 9 (not to be subject to arbitrary arrest), 10 (full equality to a fair and public hearing in determination of rights), 11 (presumption of innocence), and 5 (torture). The Chinese government and the Transplantation Society, which has “official relations” with the World Health Organization and offers “global leadership in transplantation . . . and guidance on ethical practice,” had not submitted evidence. The Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China heard evidence in public in London on 8-10 December. A seven strong panel questioned 30 witnesses, including refugees from China, doctors, and investigators. Its full judgment, due early next year, could have major implications for doctors and institutions worldwide that collaborate with China on transplantation related activities. The Chinese ambassador to the UK and prominent doctors in China involved in transplantation were invited repeatedly to give evidence but had not responded, said Nice. The tribunal invited evidence from the current and former presidents of TTS. Three said that they would not attend the hearings, he said. Nice emphasised that the tribunal remains open to receiving evidence through its website (https://chinatribunal.com/call-for- https://chinatribunal.com/call-for- evidence). Jean-Pierre Mongeau, executive director of the Transplantation Society, told The BMJ, “While TTS will not be providing a testimony at this time, we have been a firm supporter of the reform in China, and we applaud the laws that have been enacted.” In 2007 China banned commercial organ trading,1 and a 2011 law insisted on consent.2 In 2015 China vowed to halt the harvesting of organs from death row prisoners (not prisoners of conscience).3 4 The tribunal was convened by the non-profit International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China (ETAC), which includes lawyers, academics, ethicists, doctors, researchers, and human rights advocates. However, the tribunal is independent from the coalition, and the tribunal’s panel is working “pro bono,” Nice said. Susie Hughes, executive director of ETAC, said, “From 2000, there was a rapid increase in the number of transplants [in China]. The source of the organs underpinning this high level of activity has never been explained in a credible way by the Chinese government. “During the 2000s, analysis of various sources of emerging evidence led to the conclusion that people who practised Falun Gong were being killed to provide the organs fuelling China’s transplant boom. “It is common for Chinese transplant professionals to parrot the Communist Party line saying that those who have been speaking out . . . have a ‘political agenda.’” In 2006 a whistleblower claimed that more than 4000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs at the hospital in China where she worked. Subsequent independent investigators, including David Kilgour, former Canadian secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific, David Matas, an international human rights lawyer, and the investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann, have concluded that such practices occurred Sitting on the panel alongside Nice are Martin Elliott, professor of cardiothoracic surgery at University College London, Andrew Khoo, who has a private law practice in Malaysia, Regina Paulose, a US attorney who focuses on international criminal law and human rights, Shadi Sadr, an Iranian human rights lawyer, Nicholas Vetch, a UK businessman, and Arthur Waldron, a US historian and professor of international relations at the University of Pennsylvania. Nice said, “It was decided not to have a panel of people already knowledgeable about, or particularly concerned about, allegations of forced organ harvesting that have already been made” Informal people’s tribunals fill a gap, he said, when formal national and international bodies failed to deal with allegations of serious crimes by states or state supported bodies. One For personal use only: See rights and reprints http://www.bmj.com/permissions http://www.bmj.com/permissions Subscribe: http://www.bmj.com/subscribe http://www.bmj.com/subscribe example was Bertrand Russell’s 1967 tribunal that investigated US policy in the Vietnam war.
awakeasleep 8y ago
Will this be added to Google's Project Dragonfly censorship engine?
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  "Like, I know harvesting organs of prisoners is bad, but can we just talk about Google products for a second"
  - t0astbread 8y ago
    Well, it's relevant. If Google delivers projects like Dragonfly that means it has no problems supporting practices like these.
rhegart 8y ago
The false dichotomy of comparing the “evils” of USA whenever horrifying news comes out of China is worrying. Stretched to the extreme it’s the equivalent of bringing up Obama droning killing innocents when comparing The Nazis and Hitler. Our minds conflate the 2 things as bad and we compartmentalize them as such together. There is a world of difference between the 2. Imagine if the world order was not created by US and instead China, things would be 10000x worse. When you are the sole superpower, other countries would abuse that privilege to benefit themselves a thousand fold more than the US does. We didn’t think about China as a serious threat 10 years ago because they were poor and not powerful yet the barbarity was worse then. It’s just more pronounced now because they have more power. The same is true for all countries going to the world stage. Nigeria doesn’t seem like a threat now but in 50 years when it’s more population than the US the racism and backwards beliefs will result in terrible world crimes. The same can be said of Vietnam, and India too. (I am Indian). If these countries get as powerful as China you’ll see them expanding military, bullying neighbors, petty tribalism stuff. It seems nationalist but I agree with trump to bring our economic industries home. Improve quality of life in these countries and improve human rights, wealth etc. but not to the degree where they are untouchable militarily and economically. Because China is not the worst to come, they are not even close. We don’t think of Vietnam and others as a threat but their tribalism runs deep as well. It takes 1 nationalist leader to increase the pace but when they have power like China almost everyone will abuse it.
- vkou 8y ago
  The US had plenty of its own Nazi Germany moments, and - unlike Nazi Germany - which was completely dismantled by the Allies - the repercussions of them are still being felt today across its native and black populations. In more recent history - of the 21st century, at least, China hasn't started any conflicts in the Middle East, that have killed hundreds of thousands of people, and turned millions more into refugees. On the scale of 'how much harm has each empire done', it is not three orders of magnitude away from the competition. China's repression is targeted internally, for reasons of internal security. The Department of State targets it externally, for reasons of national interests. Comparing the two, or trying to argue which is worse, is apples and oranges. Both groups, here, justify their behavior, by claiming that if they didn't take action, something worse would happen.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
Interning millions of people on the basis of their ethnicity/religion, and then harvesting their organs ... now where have we heard this one before? I won't make the direct comparison because it'd normally seem hyperbolic in 2018 ... but this is happening in 2018. If this is true, it has to change the narrative quite firmly.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Why are you singling out Tim Cook? All world leaders (both political and corporate) that appease China are to blame.
  - codezero 8y ago
    Was going to say this. They edited that part out.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    I believe that since Apple is claiming moral imperative every day in their ads and interviews, and because they have material relationships with China (which governments merely facilitiate) - and that Apple & co are the primary beneficiaries of 'global China' (not for example, Justin Trudeau) ... then they have the first move. World leaders behind the scenes are very wary of China, they're a) afraid of speaking out and b) have to be diplomatic on some level. The rubber hits the road (i.e. the 'money') is Apple. And yes - of course world leaders should be far more aggressive about this. Sadly, as aggressive as Trump can be, I'll bet he turns a blind eye if he gets a good trade deal. Though I'm no fan of his, I'll bet he could garner an instant 10% boost in global approval by requiring the closure of those camps as part of any future trade deal. And the thing is - he actually does have enough leverage to get away with it. It would be a major, major international coup of the humanitarian kind ... something so many of his more social/lefty peers could only dream of doing. It'd be nice to seem him try, but I'm not holding my breath.
- myth_drannon 8y ago
  I think it is done for the first time in human history, unless you are thinking about Nazi's children camps in Belarus where they were drawing blood from children to be used for their soldiers (Krasny Bereg- http://mynativebelarus.blogspot.com/2012/04/krasny-bereg-childrens-khatyn.html?_sm_au_=iVVJQt4QT20FDVR6 http://mynativebelarus.blogspot.com/2012/04/krasny-bereg-chi...). I'm afraid the dystopian future is here, not in a sense of using certain groups of people for organ harvesting but as in growing humans in labs for that purpose. The Chinese government will most likely prefer the "cleaner" option.
alehul 8y ago
When I was younger, maybe five years ago or so, I was living in Boston and I'd consistently see a pack of Chinese protestors outside the public library at Copley (very popular area) holding up signs, looking to gain attention for this very issue. They spoke to me as best as they could, handed me a pamphlet with hard-to-parse English but nonetheless gruesome descriptions, and asked for my signature along with any other help I could offer. I was pretty skeptical that this story was as one-sided as they (along with any other protestor/activist) would represent it to be. I remember wondering what I was really signing a petition for, and hesitation in doing so. This report fills me with regret for not feeling more empathy, as I must imagine they knew people or knew of people who this had happened to, in order to sit out there all day, so consistently. I haven't seen any of the protestors in years, despite their previous frequency-- I hope they're all well, as are their families. Has anyone else seen this in other cities, or had other experiences with these folks in Boston?
- dak1 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong
- JusticeJuice 8y ago
  I've seen them in Hong Kong, Melbourne Australia, Wellington New Zealand, and Auckland New Zealand :(
- kseistrup 8y ago
  I've seen them at Folkemødet 2018 on the Danish island Bornholm in the Baltic Sea.
- chao- 8y ago
  I lived down the road from the Chinese consulate in Houston, it being along my walk from home to the grocery story. I would see a decent-sized protest once or twice a month. One was always Tibet-related, the other would vary, but at recall least once seeing something along the lines of what you describe.
- cpmsmith 8y ago
me_love_animes 8y ago
pure evil, not quite sure what this has to do with hacker news though
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
I remember first hearing about this in the context of the Bodies exhibit[0] and concern from some people not to accept "donations" from China, as they might've come involuntarily from political prisoners. Looks like their concern was well-placed. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodies:_The_Exhibition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodies:_The_Exhibition
shawn2 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17763922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17763922 The problem with bringing such links into arguments like this is that no one does so for reasons of intellectual interest. For example, in this case, people aren't actually interested in the plight of the Uighurs. Rather, it's convenient ammunition for justifying pre-existing political and national feelings. Such a move is not part of thoughtful conversation at all; it's just ideology and tribal loyalty, which explains why the discussions are so utterly repetitive—and therefore off topic for HN. It turns out that people are in fact interested in the plight of the Uighurs.
jfhufl 8y ago
Reminds me of the organ banks in Niven's Known Space, Series. Governments made being sent to the "organ banks" the favored punishment for crimes. Also gave way to OrganLegging: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organlegging Lovely.
- berbec 8y ago
  I recall a horrifying story Niven wrote about a man running from the police to escape his death sentance. At the end of the story, he is caught and brought to justice for running a red light.
throwaway5411 8y ago
I quietly wondered, some weeks ago, when China’s “Khashoggi moment” might occur. This probably isn’t it, unless an individual story can emerge that can capture the public’s revulsion in a way that, for some reason, only an individual story can. It took one journalist’s murder and dismemberment to finally make Mohammed Bin-Salman politically radioactive in a way that thousands of dead and starving Yemenis could not. As we continue to ignore the Uighur internment camps, and probably this as well, what will it take for Xi?
- mc32 8y ago
  China took and kidnapped their own international official personified in the head of the Interpol. Not much more than a squeak. So, I don't think you're going to hear about "unknowns" much. The Saudi journalist is an odd exception. Any other journalist (remember the Russian journalist assassinated, or the Maltese journalist). Like there is a squeak but not much else --which tells me there is something about the Saudi case.
  - chaostheory 8y ago
    Yes, he worked for the Washington Post. I guess it hits closer to home for US media, seeing it happen to their own.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    Well, but he was not murdered. "Just" imprisoned in unconvential ways so to say. So you can't really expect the same outcry.
    - mc32 8y ago
      True, but a person of great stature and responsibility, Not the UN sec general, but imagine the UN sec general gets kidnapped by Portugal and.... crickets...
  - usaar333 8y ago
    > which tells me there is something about the Saudi case. It being done on foreign soil is part of what made the Saudi case so egregious.
michaelmrose 8y ago
So how many victims are there? CNN said in 2016 that there were 10k legal transplants and 60-100k actual transplants based on looking at actual volume of transplants at the largest hospitals and supposes that executed minorities compose the difference. Keep in mind that one victim could be sufficient to provide fodder for a number of operations. https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/i... Do we have actual hard numbers? The 4000 fulun gong seem insufficient for the volume reported.
- tzs 8y ago
  Don't forget that one body can supply parts for several different transplants.
  - snthd 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China#Discrepancy_in_known_sources_of_organs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... > Because China lacks an organized organ matching and allocation system, and in order to satisfy expectations for very short wait times, it is rare that multiple organs are harvested from the same donor.
    - michaelmrose 8y ago
      So 1 illicit transplants is actually 1 murder that is absolutely horrifying. If this has been going on since 2006 we could be looking at mass extermination hundreds of thousands.
- candiodari 8y ago
  > Keep in mind that one victim could be sufficient to provide fodder for a number of operations. Not if you want the organ recipients to survive, which presumably is the point of the whole exercise. The odds of them matching with one recipient are tiny, the odds of them matching with 2 are tiny squared.
blhack 8y ago
Why does the west continue to tolerate China as a trading partner? China is pretty obviously building their empire. They, as a government, appear to have almost no regard whatsoever for human life. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard whatsoever for national sovereignty. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard for the environment. It just seems completely inevitable to me that China eventually wants to conquer the world. Why is the west enriching them, and by proxy funding their research into war machines when it seems obvious that these things will eventually be used against us? These acts are atrocities, no doubt. But these atrocities aren't being committed by some dictator in some small, isolated country. These atrocities are being committed by a regime that has all but said that it intends to conquer the rest of the planet and export these atrocities as the standard operating procedure for the entire planet, and which very probably WILL DO THIS if something doesn't occur to change the course. People are upset about the "trade war" we are currently in, or about to be in, or were in, or whatever the pundit of the hour says. I can't say I agree that restricting trade with China, and encouraging the infrastructure being built there to be built in the US, or at the very least in a country that respects human rights instead, is a bad thing.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  We fund them because it helps the people in charge get rich off the backs of cheap Chinese labor. We (the U.S) tolerate their disrespect for human rights because we also do not respect human rights, as demonstrated by our relationship with Saudi Arabia, our many horrible wars, etc. We also do not respect national sovereignty, as demonstrated by our covert wars in South America, our firebombing of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and our occupation of the Middle East. We do business with them because they are like us. Or at least, like our business people. They want to grow their power as our businesses do. Not all business people are like this, but we allow the influential businesses to support these actions and we as a people do not stop it.
  - blhack 8y ago
empathy_m 8y ago
I was trying to understand what the Chinese perspective is on this. What do people who live in China or who were born there think about whether or not people in China have harvested organs from political prisoners and/or continue to do so? Here is the best most levelheaded response I found, on Quora from someone who frequently presents a particular point of view: https://www.quora.com/Are-there-not-people-within-the-Chinese-government-who-oppose-the-human-harvest-of-organs/answer/Feifei-Wang-6 https://www.quora.com/Are-there-not-people-within-the-Chines... She writes that organ harvesting is illegal, that nearly everyone in China opposes it, and that if someone were caught doing it, they would go to jail. I'm not sure how to square that with a finding from a tribunal in Britain that "state organised or approved organisations or individuals" engaged in "forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practised for a substantial period of time, involving a very substantial number of victims". I guess she would probably respond by saying that the source is dubious and it cannot be true because the state wouldn't break the law like that? Is that the view?
jhcl 8y ago
Looks like members only content, can't get through the paywall. In the meantime the short description does trigger the discussion why the US still lets Guantanamo Bay violate the human rights.
nneonneo 8y ago
So it's worth noting that allegations about organ harvesting have been circulating since at least the 2000s. There is likely (almost certainly) credibility in the claims that political prisoners (mostly Falun Gong practitioners) were harvested for organs in the early 2000s. From what I can tell, the tribunal is validating that these abuses occurred. However, there is not any hard evidence (that I know of - I'd be happy to be corrected) of recent harvesting or coerced organ donation from recent years - in particular, in 2015 China agreed to stop using prisoners as organ sources (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/04/china-stop-using-executed-prisoners-organs-transplant-demand-donations https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/04/china-stop-usi...). So I'll be curious to hear the final report - whether it mentions recent abuses or not.
- ryanmarsh 8y ago
  This would be easy to confirm. How many heart transplants took place in China in 2017? Then find an explanation for the source.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  China agreed to stop using prisoners as forced organ donors many times before 2015. They didn't even say "we really mean it this time", so I'm not sure how much credibility you can take from their statement. The big problem is that the provinces and local governments aren't really that great at following the central government's direction unless the latter is really serious (who can't focus their attention on some many things).
  - ryacko 8y ago
    China has mass surveillance. The amount of money that would change hands for organs would raise red flags, as well as the likelihood of using a known broker.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Just because China has mass surveillance and is partially a police state, it still is a chaotic place where you can mostly jay walk with impunity. State organs are poorly organized and integrated, and there is no easy way to verify the implementation of whatever edicts come from the top. The central government also don't care if some local politicians are involved in the prison organ trade for a few extra rambos, as long as they keep it under the radar....
pleasecalllater 8y ago
And nothing will change, as usually. Russia attacked Ukraine - lots of countries said how unhappy they were and that's all - nothing happened. China is too strong, so companies will still make deals, will still buy and sell there, will just do whatever the China government wants. The same with the politicians bought by the companies. Any tribunal will not change anything. Even UN is paralyzed as the all sanctions against China will get China's veto and there won't be any decision. Even when Mr. Trump made concentration camps for children (just like Germans did during the WW2) did anything change after publishing the information about that? So my final thought is quite sad: nothing will change, live on, be happy that you live in such a country which respects some other values (e.g. exploits work of children in Asia but not your children, so you can think that nothing happens).
zachguo 8y ago
A good never-falsifiable story, just like those made up by people who are trying to get and maintain an asylum visa to US.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  There are more transplant operations in China than are consistent with rates of organ donation. Far, far more. What’s your alternative explanation?
jhallenworld 8y ago
Respect for life is pretty low in China in other ways, take a look at the experience of having a baby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgZ_xNXViw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgZ_xNXViw
- pesfandiar 8y ago
  Coming from a Middle Eastern country, I understand very well what low respect for life could look like. It runs through all layers of the society/culture, and probably takes generations to fix. For a better depiction of how low the respect of life could be, I suggest (at risk of psychological trauma) reading or viewing videos about how some drivers in China would rather run over an injured pedestrian (in some cases small children) a few times to ensure they're dead. Apparently a dead victim costs less than ongoing medical bills.
deleted 8y ago
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csense 8y ago
China's arresting Canadians in revenge for the Huawei executive's arrest. Are those Canadians going to be murdered for their organs if the Huawei executive is extradited?
- everybodyknows 8y ago
  Of course not -- hostages need to be alive to have negotiating value.
_zachs 8y ago
You have to give it to Trump for really sticking it to China in trade.
lordnacho 8y ago
If you're wondering how people can see through all manner of moral repugnance, here's Sacha Baron Cohen exploiting this for laughs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P65pZhZ-pks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P65pZhZ-pks Includes a segment about a Chinese dissident being eaten. Boggles the mind how the guy apparently thinks this is real human flesh and not only that, it's from a prisoner.
stanfordkid 8y ago
Why do people fall for this sort of stuff so easily? There is a pattern of western governments regularly organizing subversive, extremist, headline grabbing testimonies to further foreign policy objectives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony I don't think the Chinese government is great either, but I'm pretty cognizant that the level of anti-China FUD is directly proportional to the accelerating economic growth and foreign influence of the nation. China is causing very positive economic development in Africa, Pakistan and other regions that are more than happy to partner with it. I for one am not so worried about a Chinese Surveillance state being thrust upon Europe or the US.
- nneonneo 8y ago
  This probably isn't even organized by Western governments - most likely this is meant to support the Falun Gong. I've seen a noticeable uptick in Falun Gong's efforts to highlight the organ harvesting issue over the last few months.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    It’s depressing how many people take their claims at face value. Falun Gong is Chinese Scientology https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falun_Gong https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falun_Gong
- T-A 8y ago
  > the level of anti-China FUD is directly proportional to the accelerating economic growth Then it should have almost halved since 2010: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate-in-china/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-pr...
- mindentropy 8y ago
  This is similar to the story regarding Supermicro hack. The Government propaganda is on a hyper drive with the recent Chinese tensions.
68c12c16 8y ago
i remember reading another report by washington post on this issue a year ago...i am posting the report link here and perhaps it could provide us with a bit more details regarding the problem... news title: China used to harvest organs from prisoners. Under pressure, that practice is finally ending. date: 2017/09/14 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-face-of-criticism-china-has-been-cleaning-up-its-organ-transplant-industry/2017/09/14/d689444e-e1a2-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-fac...
deleted 8y ago
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unfunco 8y ago
As an aside, Jimmy Carr mentioned in a TV show a few weeks back that his friend had liver disease, and couldn't get a liver transplant on the NHS, so went to China and bought a liver off a man on death row. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97SjHFuZilI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97SjHFuZilI
echaozh 8y ago
Not sure how people can sit outside China for 3 days and gather enough evidence to believe "beyond doubt" that the organ harvesting thing is true. Also, if you look at what Falun Gong teaches, the credibility of the believers should be at question. Per Wikipedia, the grandmaster of the cult believes that homosexuality is a sin, democracy and science are both bad things, and aliens are constantly interfering with Earth affairs.[1] If Falun Gong is not against China, but against, say Thailand, how many of you will blindly believe their accusations? What about Canada? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong
stunt 8y ago
Not defending China but this might be simply fake news. Haven't seen it in any major news network or human right organization talking about this. I wouldn't be surprised if there is just a campaign against China these days. I see bad news every day on the internet about China.

460 points by crunchiebones 8y ago

rdxm 8y ago

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! NOT!!!!

aldoushuxley001 8y ago

It's also rumored they actively seek to harvest organs from Falun Gong practictioners...

chapium 8y ago
Not rumors, judging by the contents of this article.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

thinkloop 8y ago

any tricks to get full article?

bognition 8y ago
Use SciHub https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.k5250 https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.k5250
pizza 8y ago
use sci-hub https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 mods delete this comment if it's inappropriate but this is a pretty bewildering release
- crunchiebones 8y ago
  ah, the link can't be changed.. sorry
excalibur 8y ago
> Access this article for 1 day for: £23 / $37 / €30 (inc. VAT) That's one pricey paywall. For a PDF that's apparently slightly over one page.
- crunchiebones 8y ago
  tried to change the link but it seems like you can only change the title ._.
tzs 8y ago
Google "Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China" and it should turn up the website of the panel itself, and a few sites that covered the release of the interim report. The BMJ article is a news article covering that release, not a research article, so the BMJ article has nothing that isn't readily in the other coverage. If you find this report interesting, this Wikipedia article would probably also be interesting [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
zczc 8y ago
https://pastebin.com/WvYnX5Vx https://pastebin.com/WvYnX5Vx

hnaccy 8y ago

You can't get much more dystopian or abhorrent than using a political minority as livestock.

DannyB2 8y ago
The word 'harvested' is so much nicer than 'stolen'. That makes the 'optics' better. (i feel sick now)
- jbigelow76 8y ago
  Honestly, I think "harvested" is worse than "stolen". You "steal" from another person, you "harvest" a resource that has no humanity.
- thinkingkong 8y ago
  On the contrary. Harvesting organs is terrifying.
  - kurthr 8y ago
    Just add one more word... harvesting Human organs, and the alliteration sends a shiver down you spine.
- ccostes 8y ago
  Is it? In the context of people's organs they're both pretty abhorrent.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- wl 8y ago
  "Stolen" is so much nicer than "murdered."

miles 8y ago

Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

eric_b 8y ago
> "According to the reports, political prisoners, mainly Falun Gong practitioners, are being executed "on demand" in order to provide organs to recipients." Wild... I had no idea this was going on. There are a lot of things about China that I disagree with, but this might be the worst thing I've heard so far.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Imagine how much more efficiently the Chinese government could identify involuntary donors if it had better access to people's personal information. Perhaps through a search engine of some kind. One with a harmless-sounding name. Maybe "Dragonfly" would be a good name.
  - trhway 8y ago
    especially if it has significant connection (like through common investors/execs) to a huge database of DNA. > identify involuntary donors err... dissidents. Highest political crime - being a 100%-match for a Central Committee member who needs liver transplant.
  - cabalamat 8y ago
    Google's mission statement is "to organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful". I'm sure we can all be happy if, with the help of Google, China becomes a more harmonious society, without any pesky troublemakers, and that hard-working Chinese Communist Party officials get the transplants they so deserve.
    - reaperducer 8y ago

DeonPenny 8y ago

Crazy that people are just finding this out. They've done this to three major groups of people.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gotts 8y ago
which three major groups were you referring to?
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Uyghurs, Falun Gong, non-communists?
  - wollstonecraft 8y ago
    Uyghurs are probably not a tissue match for Han.
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      Uyghurs are more or less half East Asian, half West Eurasian though ethnogenesis is long enough ago that they’re fairly thoroughly mixed. Naively you might expect they’d be half as likely to match Han. It’s probably lower than half but I’d be very surprised if it was less than a quarter. There are six loci that are important for transplant rejection or acceptance though there are hundreds of alleles for those loci[1]. And there are almost certainly more Uyghurs in “re-education camps” than any other group at the moment. If there are ten times as many Uyghurs imprisoned as everyone else combined but they’re 1/4 as likely to be a good transplant match there’ll be 2.5 times as many Uyghurs harvested. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_compl...
  - DeonPenny 8y ago
    Tibetans

jamesjue 8y ago

From the article, "The Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China heard evidence in public in London on 8-10 December. A seven strong panel questioned 30 witnesses, including refugees from China, doctors, and investigators.". Clearly, solid and irrefutable conclusions on such a serious matter only need 3 days of hearing from 30 witnesses.

ArchTypical 8y ago
> a serious matter only need 3 days of hearing from 30 witnesses. Making statements about immoral acts by the Chinese government is probably something that takes a little bit of secrecy, security and assurances in the modern era. I have to wonder if you understand the situation.
theonemind 8y ago
That seems plausible to me. They had evidence and witnesses, and don't seem to claim exhaustive knowledge of scope or every detail of implementation. Did it happen? Y/N ... three days, 30 witnesses, and evidence, to determine 1 bit of information. Y or N. We got Y. That does not seem far-fetched or necessarily slipshod.

pasbesoin 8y ago

U.S. perspective, writing this. I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut. And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of our relationship (whether speaking at the personal level or the state/economy level) with contemporary China. With our technology, we've enabled and empowered a political and economic structure that has not... "sorted its shit" as part of achieving same. Simultaneously, we've hollowed out our own system -- the checks and balances, as well as raw job counts. The U.S. is far from perfect. Nonetheless, literally, physically "ripping the life" from one person, as a judgement, to benefit another. That is some symbolism. And a hallmark of what our own society has at least publicly considered to be "dystopia". ---- P.S. I responded to a reply with the following, but the child comment was deleted before I finished. It was a more than fair point about what happens (over here), and the opportunity for response allowed me to better qualify the... "us versus them" -- or perhaps lack of a "versus" -- present in my original comment. So, copy/pasta of that reply of mine: My "the U.S. is far from perfect" is an understatement -- one I worried about. I agree with your point, and I find the behaviors you point out abhorrent. Prison for profit; Econ. 101 teaches you what you're going to get from that. The U.S. has, however, been pretty aggressive in regulating organ transplants. When they happen. How limited, hopefully ethical, supplies are distributed. Of course, over this hangs the spectre of economic disparity, corresponding health insurance disparity and health care access... Yes, the U.S. is making plenty of life-altering, life-destroying decisions. The "death panels" that actually exist but don't make it into the political discussion (i.e. not the ginned up political phantoms). And, some of those disparities seem to have been severely exacerbated, domestically -- progress actively reversed -- through off-shoring, outsourcing, and the winner-take-all, short-term reward. As I grow more depressed writing this, well, at least we aren't ripping out "prisoners'" organs -- yet. (We go overseas and buy nice foreigners' kidneys, for that.)

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Indeed. What is the solution? Economic sanctions (I'd argue yes)? UN resolutions? (Useless) Boots on the ground? (Physical force, while preferably a last resort, is always an option). I'm starting to warm to the idea of using tariffs and other punitive measures to drag manufacturing back to US shores.

a-nikolaev 8y ago

The word "substantial" is very vague and a bad sign for any scientific and evidence-based publication. Then, when such news show up while Trump is trying to make his deal with the Chinese and (it seems) even got a hostage recently, this makes me feel a bit suspicious of this article, especially since its content is pay-walled. (I'm not defending organ-harvesting, which was already reported in the past, but the article must be specific about what has or has not happened, and should not use such vague statements.)

ArchTypical 8y ago
> The word "substantial" is very vague and a bad sign for any scientific and evidence-based publication. That's true. Have an upvote. There are some troubling stats that can be pulled up in regard to transplant stats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... Admittedly, it's a little backhanded to complain about the accuracy of statistics that are intentionally withheld by a totalitarian dystopian regime. Downvoted, but relevant all the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18611084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18611084
malmsteen 8y ago
Tbh you can see a conpiracy everywhere, even with your comment for example: you could be geniunely suspicious. Or you could be a die hard trump supporter who prefer to say its suspicious because you don't like that attacking china whill lead in the future to attacking trump policy. I wonder which one
- a-nikolaev 8y ago
  Well, if Trump say something about this topic on TV in the next couple of days, then I'm right. In any case, they promise to deliver a full report on that investigation in early 2019, hopefully it will be more informative. (My main point is not that the article might be politically motivated, but that its main statement is very imprecise and allows interpretations.)
throwba43yt 8y ago

chapium 8y ago

wow... “During the 2000s, analysis of various sources of emerging evidence led to the conclusion that people who practised Falun Gong were being killed to provide the organs fuelling China’s transplant boom. “It is common for Chinese transplant professionals to parrot the Communist Party line saying that those who have been speaking out . . . have a ‘political agenda.’” In 2006 a whistleblower claimed that more than 4000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs at the hospital in China where she worked. Subsequent independent investigators, including David Kilgour, former Canadian secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific, David Matas, an international human rights lawyer, and the investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann, have concluded that such practices occurred

throwawayofis 8y ago

China harvested organs from political prisoners on substantial scale, says tribunal Richard Hurley The BMJ Forced harvesting of organs from prisoners of conscience in China has been “substantial,” says an interim judgment of an independent “people’s tribunal” set up to determine whether the country’s transplantation practices breached international criminal law. The former English judge Geoffrey Nice QC, the tribunal’s chair, said after a three day evidence gathering session, “We, the tribunal members, are all certain, unanimously, beyond reasonable doubt, that in China forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practised for a substantial period of time, involving a very substantial number of victims . . . by state organised or approved organisations or individuals.” The tribunal found that the practices breached the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, including articles 3 (right to life), 6 (recognition as a person before the law), 7 (equality before the law), 9 (not to be subject to arbitrary arrest), 10 (full equality to a fair and public hearing in determination of rights), 11 (presumption of innocence), and 5 (torture). The Chinese government and the Transplantation Society, which has “official relations” with the World Health Organization and offers “global leadership in transplantation . . . and guidance on ethical practice,” had not submitted evidence. The Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China heard evidence in public in London on 8-10 December. A seven strong panel questioned 30 witnesses, including refugees from China, doctors, and investigators. Its full judgment, due early next year, could have major implications for doctors and institutions worldwide that collaborate with China on transplantation related activities. The Chinese ambassador to the UK and prominent doctors in China involved in transplantation were invited repeatedly to give evidence but had not responded, said Nice. The tribunal invited evidence from the current and former presidents of TTS. Three said that they would not attend the hearings, he said. Nice emphasised that the tribunal remains open to receiving evidence through its website (https://chinatribunal.com/call-for- https://chinatribunal.com/call-for- evidence). Jean-Pierre Mongeau, executive director of the Transplantation Society, told The BMJ, “While TTS will not be providing a testimony at this time, we have been a firm supporter of the reform in China, and we applaud the laws that have been enacted.” In 2007 China banned commercial organ trading,1 and a 2011 law insisted on consent.2 In 2015 China vowed to halt the harvesting of organs from death row prisoners (not prisoners of conscience).3 4 The tribunal was convened by the non-profit International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China (ETAC), which includes lawyers, academics, ethicists, doctors, researchers, and human rights advocates. However, the tribunal is independent from the coalition, and the tribunal’s panel is working “pro bono,” Nice said. Susie Hughes, executive director of ETAC, said, “From 2000, there was a rapid increase in the number of transplants [in China]. The source of the organs underpinning this high level of activity has never been explained in a credible way by the Chinese government. “During the 2000s, analysis of various sources of emerging evidence led to the conclusion that people who practised Falun Gong were being killed to provide the organs fuelling China’s transplant boom. “It is common for Chinese transplant professionals to parrot the Communist Party line saying that those who have been speaking out . . . have a ‘political agenda.’” In 2006 a whistleblower claimed that more than 4000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs at the hospital in China where she worked. Subsequent independent investigators, including David Kilgour, former Canadian secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific, David Matas, an international human rights lawyer, and the investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann, have concluded that such practices occurred Sitting on the panel alongside Nice are Martin Elliott, professor of cardiothoracic surgery at University College London, Andrew Khoo, who has a private law practice in Malaysia, Regina Paulose, a US attorney who focuses on international criminal law and human rights, Shadi Sadr, an Iranian human rights lawyer, Nicholas Vetch, a UK businessman, and Arthur Waldron, a US historian and professor of international relations at the University of Pennsylvania. Nice said, “It was decided not to have a panel of people already knowledgeable about, or particularly concerned about, allegations of forced organ harvesting that have already been made” Informal people’s tribunals fill a gap, he said, when formal national and international bodies failed to deal with allegations of serious crimes by states or state supported bodies. One For personal use only: See rights and reprints http://www.bmj.com/permissions http://www.bmj.com/permissions Subscribe: http://www.bmj.com/subscribe http://www.bmj.com/subscribe example was Bertrand Russell’s 1967 tribunal that investigated US policy in the Vietnam war.

awakeasleep 8y ago

Will this be added to Google's Project Dragonfly censorship engine?

peterwwillis 8y ago
"Like, I know harvesting organs of prisoners is bad, but can we just talk about Google products for a second"
- t0astbread 8y ago
  Well, it's relevant. If Google delivers projects like Dragonfly that means it has no problems supporting practices like these.

rhegart 8y ago

The false dichotomy of comparing the “evils” of USA whenever horrifying news comes out of China is worrying. Stretched to the extreme it’s the equivalent of bringing up Obama droning killing innocents when comparing The Nazis and Hitler. Our minds conflate the 2 things as bad and we compartmentalize them as such together. There is a world of difference between the 2. Imagine if the world order was not created by US and instead China, things would be 10000x worse. When you are the sole superpower, other countries would abuse that privilege to benefit themselves a thousand fold more than the US does. We didn’t think about China as a serious threat 10 years ago because they were poor and not powerful yet the barbarity was worse then. It’s just more pronounced now because they have more power. The same is true for all countries going to the world stage. Nigeria doesn’t seem like a threat now but in 50 years when it’s more population than the US the racism and backwards beliefs will result in terrible world crimes. The same can be said of Vietnam, and India too. (I am Indian). If these countries get as powerful as China you’ll see them expanding military, bullying neighbors, petty tribalism stuff. It seems nationalist but I agree with trump to bring our economic industries home. Improve quality of life in these countries and improve human rights, wealth etc. but not to the degree where they are untouchable militarily and economically. Because China is not the worst to come, they are not even close. We don’t think of Vietnam and others as a threat but their tribalism runs deep as well. It takes 1 nationalist leader to increase the pace but when they have power like China almost everyone will abuse it.

vkou 8y ago
The US had plenty of its own Nazi Germany moments, and - unlike Nazi Germany - which was completely dismantled by the Allies - the repercussions of them are still being felt today across its native and black populations. In more recent history - of the 21st century, at least, China hasn't started any conflicts in the Middle East, that have killed hundreds of thousands of people, and turned millions more into refugees. On the scale of 'how much harm has each empire done', it is not three orders of magnitude away from the competition. China's repression is targeted internally, for reasons of internal security. The Department of State targets it externally, for reasons of national interests. Comparing the two, or trying to argue which is worse, is apples and oranges. Both groups, here, justify their behavior, by claiming that if they didn't take action, something worse would happen.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

Interning millions of people on the basis of their ethnicity/religion, and then harvesting their organs ... now where have we heard this one before? I won't make the direct comparison because it'd normally seem hyperbolic in 2018 ... but this is happening in 2018. If this is true, it has to change the narrative quite firmly.

craftyguy 8y ago
Why are you singling out Tim Cook? All world leaders (both political and corporate) that appease China are to blame.
- codezero 8y ago
  Was going to say this. They edited that part out.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  I believe that since Apple is claiming moral imperative every day in their ads and interviews, and because they have material relationships with China (which governments merely facilitiate) - and that Apple & co are the primary beneficiaries of 'global China' (not for example, Justin Trudeau) ... then they have the first move. World leaders behind the scenes are very wary of China, they're a) afraid of speaking out and b) have to be diplomatic on some level. The rubber hits the road (i.e. the 'money') is Apple. And yes - of course world leaders should be far more aggressive about this. Sadly, as aggressive as Trump can be, I'll bet he turns a blind eye if he gets a good trade deal. Though I'm no fan of his, I'll bet he could garner an instant 10% boost in global approval by requiring the closure of those camps as part of any future trade deal. And the thing is - he actually does have enough leverage to get away with it. It would be a major, major international coup of the humanitarian kind ... something so many of his more social/lefty peers could only dream of doing. It'd be nice to seem him try, but I'm not holding my breath.
myth_drannon 8y ago
I think it is done for the first time in human history, unless you are thinking about Nazi's children camps in Belarus where they were drawing blood from children to be used for their soldiers (Krasny Bereg- http://mynativebelarus.blogspot.com/2012/04/krasny-bereg-childrens-khatyn.html?_sm_au_=iVVJQt4QT20FDVR6 http://mynativebelarus.blogspot.com/2012/04/krasny-bereg-chi...). I'm afraid the dystopian future is here, not in a sense of using certain groups of people for organ harvesting but as in growing humans in labs for that purpose. The Chinese government will most likely prefer the "cleaner" option.

alehul 8y ago

When I was younger, maybe five years ago or so, I was living in Boston and I'd consistently see a pack of Chinese protestors outside the public library at Copley (very popular area) holding up signs, looking to gain attention for this very issue. They spoke to me as best as they could, handed me a pamphlet with hard-to-parse English but nonetheless gruesome descriptions, and asked for my signature along with any other help I could offer. I was pretty skeptical that this story was as one-sided as they (along with any other protestor/activist) would represent it to be. I remember wondering what I was really signing a petition for, and hesitation in doing so. This report fills me with regret for not feeling more empathy, as I must imagine they knew people or knew of people who this had happened to, in order to sit out there all day, so consistently. I haven't seen any of the protestors in years, despite their previous frequency-- I hope they're all well, as are their families. Has anyone else seen this in other cities, or had other experiences with these folks in Boston?

dak1 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong
JusticeJuice 8y ago
I've seen them in Hong Kong, Melbourne Australia, Wellington New Zealand, and Auckland New Zealand :(
kseistrup 8y ago
I've seen them at Folkemødet 2018 on the Danish island Bornholm in the Baltic Sea.
chao- 8y ago
I lived down the road from the Chinese consulate in Houston, it being along my walk from home to the grocery story. I would see a decent-sized protest once or twice a month. One was always Tibet-related, the other would vary, but at recall least once seeing something along the lines of what you describe.
cpmsmith 8y ago

me_love_animes 8y ago

pure evil, not quite sure what this has to do with hacker news though

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

I remember first hearing about this in the context of the Bodies exhibit[0] and concern from some people not to accept "donations" from China, as they might've come involuntarily from political prisoners. Looks like their concern was well-placed. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodies:_The_Exhibition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodies:_The_Exhibition

shawn2 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17763922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17763922 The problem with bringing such links into arguments like this is that no one does so for reasons of intellectual interest. For example, in this case, people aren't actually interested in the plight of the Uighurs. Rather, it's convenient ammunition for justifying pre-existing political and national feelings. Such a move is not part of thoughtful conversation at all; it's just ideology and tribal loyalty, which explains why the discussions are so utterly repetitive—and therefore off topic for HN. It turns out that people are in fact interested in the plight of the Uighurs.

jfhufl 8y ago

Reminds me of the organ banks in Niven's Known Space, Series. Governments made being sent to the "organ banks" the favored punishment for crimes. Also gave way to OrganLegging: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organlegging Lovely.

berbec 8y ago
I recall a horrifying story Niven wrote about a man running from the police to escape his death sentance. At the end of the story, he is caught and brought to justice for running a red light.

throwaway5411 8y ago

I quietly wondered, some weeks ago, when China’s “Khashoggi moment” might occur. This probably isn’t it, unless an individual story can emerge that can capture the public’s revulsion in a way that, for some reason, only an individual story can. It took one journalist’s murder and dismemberment to finally make Mohammed Bin-Salman politically radioactive in a way that thousands of dead and starving Yemenis could not. As we continue to ignore the Uighur internment camps, and probably this as well, what will it take for Xi?

mc32 8y ago
China took and kidnapped their own international official personified in the head of the Interpol. Not much more than a squeak. So, I don't think you're going to hear about "unknowns" much. The Saudi journalist is an odd exception. Any other journalist (remember the Russian journalist assassinated, or the Maltese journalist). Like there is a squeak but not much else --which tells me there is something about the Saudi case.
- chaostheory 8y ago
  Yes, he worked for the Washington Post. I guess it hits closer to home for US media, seeing it happen to their own.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  Well, but he was not murdered. "Just" imprisoned in unconvential ways so to say. So you can't really expect the same outcry.
  - mc32 8y ago
    True, but a person of great stature and responsibility, Not the UN sec general, but imagine the UN sec general gets kidnapped by Portugal and.... crickets...
- usaar333 8y ago
  > which tells me there is something about the Saudi case. It being done on foreign soil is part of what made the Saudi case so egregious.

michaelmrose 8y ago

So how many victims are there? CNN said in 2016 that there were 10k legal transplants and 60-100k actual transplants based on looking at actual volume of transplants at the largest hospitals and supposes that executed minorities compose the difference. Keep in mind that one victim could be sufficient to provide fodder for a number of operations. https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/i... Do we have actual hard numbers? The 4000 fulun gong seem insufficient for the volume reported.

tzs 8y ago
Don't forget that one body can supply parts for several different transplants.
- snthd 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China#Discrepancy_in_known_sources_of_organs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... > Because China lacks an organized organ matching and allocation system, and in order to satisfy expectations for very short wait times, it is rare that multiple organs are harvested from the same donor.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    So 1 illicit transplants is actually 1 murder that is absolutely horrifying. If this has been going on since 2006 we could be looking at mass extermination hundreds of thousands.
candiodari 8y ago
> Keep in mind that one victim could be sufficient to provide fodder for a number of operations. Not if you want the organ recipients to survive, which presumably is the point of the whole exercise. The odds of them matching with one recipient are tiny, the odds of them matching with 2 are tiny squared.

blhack 8y ago

Why does the west continue to tolerate China as a trading partner? China is pretty obviously building their empire. They, as a government, appear to have almost no regard whatsoever for human life. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard whatsoever for national sovereignty. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard for the environment. It just seems completely inevitable to me that China eventually wants to conquer the world. Why is the west enriching them, and by proxy funding their research into war machines when it seems obvious that these things will eventually be used against us? These acts are atrocities, no doubt. But these atrocities aren't being committed by some dictator in some small, isolated country. These atrocities are being committed by a regime that has all but said that it intends to conquer the rest of the planet and export these atrocities as the standard operating procedure for the entire planet, and which very probably WILL DO THIS if something doesn't occur to change the course. People are upset about the "trade war" we are currently in, or about to be in, or were in, or whatever the pundit of the hour says. I can't say I agree that restricting trade with China, and encouraging the infrastructure being built there to be built in the US, or at the very least in a country that respects human rights instead, is a bad thing.

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TaylorAlexander 8y ago
We fund them because it helps the people in charge get rich off the backs of cheap Chinese labor. We (the U.S) tolerate their disrespect for human rights because we also do not respect human rights, as demonstrated by our relationship with Saudi Arabia, our many horrible wars, etc. We also do not respect national sovereignty, as demonstrated by our covert wars in South America, our firebombing of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, and our occupation of the Middle East. We do business with them because they are like us. Or at least, like our business people. They want to grow their power as our businesses do. Not all business people are like this, but we allow the influential businesses to support these actions and we as a people do not stop it.
- blhack 8y ago

empathy_m 8y ago

I was trying to understand what the Chinese perspective is on this. What do people who live in China or who were born there think about whether or not people in China have harvested organs from political prisoners and/or continue to do so? Here is the best most levelheaded response I found, on Quora from someone who frequently presents a particular point of view: https://www.quora.com/Are-there-not-people-within-the-Chinese-government-who-oppose-the-human-harvest-of-organs/answer/Feifei-Wang-6 https://www.quora.com/Are-there-not-people-within-the-Chines... She writes that organ harvesting is illegal, that nearly everyone in China opposes it, and that if someone were caught doing it, they would go to jail. I'm not sure how to square that with a finding from a tribunal in Britain that "state organised or approved organisations or individuals" engaged in "forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practised for a substantial period of time, involving a very substantial number of victims". I guess she would probably respond by saying that the source is dubious and it cannot be true because the state wouldn't break the law like that? Is that the view?

jhcl 8y ago

Looks like members only content, can't get through the paywall. In the meantime the short description does trigger the discussion why the US still lets Guantanamo Bay violate the human rights.

nneonneo 8y ago

So it's worth noting that allegations about organ harvesting have been circulating since at least the 2000s. There is likely (almost certainly) credibility in the claims that political prisoners (mostly Falun Gong practitioners) were harvested for organs in the early 2000s. From what I can tell, the tribunal is validating that these abuses occurred. However, there is not any hard evidence (that I know of - I'd be happy to be corrected) of recent harvesting or coerced organ donation from recent years - in particular, in 2015 China agreed to stop using prisoners as organ sources (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/04/china-stop-using-executed-prisoners-organs-transplant-demand-donations https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/04/china-stop-usi...). So I'll be curious to hear the final report - whether it mentions recent abuses or not.

ryanmarsh 8y ago
This would be easy to confirm. How many heart transplants took place in China in 2017? Then find an explanation for the source.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
China agreed to stop using prisoners as forced organ donors many times before 2015. They didn't even say "we really mean it this time", so I'm not sure how much credibility you can take from their statement. The big problem is that the provinces and local governments aren't really that great at following the central government's direction unless the latter is really serious (who can't focus their attention on some many things).
- ryacko 8y ago
  China has mass surveillance. The amount of money that would change hands for organs would raise red flags, as well as the likelihood of using a known broker.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Just because China has mass surveillance and is partially a police state, it still is a chaotic place where you can mostly jay walk with impunity. State organs are poorly organized and integrated, and there is no easy way to verify the implementation of whatever edicts come from the top. The central government also don't care if some local politicians are involved in the prison organ trade for a few extra rambos, as long as they keep it under the radar....

pleasecalllater 8y ago

And nothing will change, as usually. Russia attacked Ukraine - lots of countries said how unhappy they were and that's all - nothing happened. China is too strong, so companies will still make deals, will still buy and sell there, will just do whatever the China government wants. The same with the politicians bought by the companies. Any tribunal will not change anything. Even UN is paralyzed as the all sanctions against China will get China's veto and there won't be any decision. Even when Mr. Trump made concentration camps for children (just like Germans did during the WW2) did anything change after publishing the information about that? So my final thought is quite sad: nothing will change, live on, be happy that you live in such a country which respects some other values (e.g. exploits work of children in Asia but not your children, so you can think that nothing happens).

zachguo 8y ago

A good never-falsifiable story, just like those made up by people who are trying to get and maintain an asylum visa to US.

barry-cotter 8y ago
There are more transplant operations in China than are consistent with rates of organ donation. Far, far more. What’s your alternative explanation?

jhallenworld 8y ago

Respect for life is pretty low in China in other ways, take a look at the experience of having a baby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgZ_xNXViw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgZ_xNXViw

pesfandiar 8y ago
Coming from a Middle Eastern country, I understand very well what low respect for life could look like. It runs through all layers of the society/culture, and probably takes generations to fix. For a better depiction of how low the respect of life could be, I suggest (at risk of psychological trauma) reading or viewing videos about how some drivers in China would rather run over an injured pedestrian (in some cases small children) a few times to ensure they're dead. Apparently a dead victim costs less than ongoing medical bills.

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csense 8y ago

China's arresting Canadians in revenge for the Huawei executive's arrest. Are those Canadians going to be murdered for their organs if the Huawei executive is extradited?

everybodyknows 8y ago
Of course not -- hostages need to be alive to have negotiating value.

_zachs 8y ago

You have to give it to Trump for really sticking it to China in trade.

lordnacho 8y ago

If you're wondering how people can see through all manner of moral repugnance, here's Sacha Baron Cohen exploiting this for laughs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P65pZhZ-pks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P65pZhZ-pks Includes a segment about a Chinese dissident being eaten. Boggles the mind how the guy apparently thinks this is real human flesh and not only that, it's from a prisoner.

stanfordkid 8y ago

Why do people fall for this sort of stuff so easily? There is a pattern of western governments regularly organizing subversive, extremist, headline grabbing testimonies to further foreign policy objectives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony I don't think the Chinese government is great either, but I'm pretty cognizant that the level of anti-China FUD is directly proportional to the accelerating economic growth and foreign influence of the nation. China is causing very positive economic development in Africa, Pakistan and other regions that are more than happy to partner with it. I for one am not so worried about a Chinese Surveillance state being thrust upon Europe or the US.

nneonneo 8y ago
This probably isn't even organized by Western governments - most likely this is meant to support the Falun Gong. I've seen a noticeable uptick in Falun Gong's efforts to highlight the organ harvesting issue over the last few months.
- chillacy 8y ago
  It’s depressing how many people take their claims at face value. Falun Gong is Chinese Scientology https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falun_Gong https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falun_Gong
T-A 8y ago
> the level of anti-China FUD is directly proportional to the accelerating economic growth Then it should have almost halved since 2010: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate-in-china/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-pr...
mindentropy 8y ago
This is similar to the story regarding Supermicro hack. The Government propaganda is on a hyper drive with the recent Chinese tensions.

68c12c16 8y ago

i remember reading another report by washington post on this issue a year ago...i am posting the report link here and perhaps it could provide us with a bit more details regarding the problem... news title: China used to harvest organs from prisoners. Under pressure, that practice is finally ending. date: 2017/09/14 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-face-of-criticism-china-has-been-cleaning-up-its-organ-transplant-industry/2017/09/14/d689444e-e1a2-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-the-fac...

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unfunco 8y ago

As an aside, Jimmy Carr mentioned in a TV show a few weeks back that his friend had liver disease, and couldn't get a liver transplant on the NHS, so went to China and bought a liver off a man on death row. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97SjHFuZilI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97SjHFuZilI

echaozh 8y ago

Not sure how people can sit outside China for 3 days and gather enough evidence to believe "beyond doubt" that the organ harvesting thing is true. Also, if you look at what Falun Gong teaches, the credibility of the believers should be at question. Per Wikipedia, the grandmaster of the cult believes that homosexuality is a sin, democracy and science are both bad things, and aliens are constantly interfering with Earth affairs.[1] If Falun Gong is not against China, but against, say Thailand, how many of you will blindly believe their accusations? What about Canada? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Falun_Gong

stunt 8y ago

Not defending China but this might be simply fake news. Haven't seen it in any major news network or human right organization talking about this. I wouldn't be surprised if there is just a campaign against China these days. I see bad news every day on the internet about China.