8 ms·

There is a great documentary about for-profit colleges and how the US education system got to the position it's in: https://failstatemovie.com https://failstat

There is a great documentary about for-profit colleges and how the US education system got to the position it's in: https://failstatemovie.com https://failstatemovie.com These companies target people who dream of a better life and then convince them to take-out massive loans. Kind of like if payday lenders were being propped-up by the federal government.

danieltillett 8y ago
It is a pity that many of the not-for-profit colleges are not any better - instead of profit the money goes to keeping an ever increasing number of parasites (sometimes called administrators) in cushy jobs.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  In 2018, with trillions in public and not-for-profit money, and modern info-tech... If a poor kid in India, or anywhere, with an internet wanted to study for a world-class education, is there any legitimately ethical reason everyone should not be able to do this freely, and also be able to earn credentials through exams? Perhaps examinations should carry a modest fee, but why isn't more going into not just open courseware, but open degree programs? Shouldn't the presitigious universities be finding ways to educate, train and credential as many people as possible, rather than maintaining barriers to entry to their educational materials? Or do we need to perpetuate prestige and social strata through these institutions' selective commitees?
  - YaxelPerez 8y ago
    Yeah, see that's the whole point of those institutions. It's all just signaling. Harvard could let in twice as many people easily, but then it would stop being the "best school" because acceptance rate affects school ranking. Instead of focusing on those schools, why don't we as a society try to remove the stigma of going to community college or learning a trade?
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Well, and the ratio of faculty to students would be worsened, facilities would get overextended, many students wouldn’t be able to live on campus, etc. I agree with your broader point though and indeed Harvard does have Harvard Extension School and was one of the founders of edX.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
        > Harvard does have Harvard Extension School Yes, and my wife is currently pursuing a graduate degree through there. It requires 3 on-site classes, and appears to be just a rigorous as a degree program in person.
  - alexbecker 8y ago
    But there is no money or prestige in that. Harvard didn't get a $37B endowment by trying to level the playing field.
    - paulddraper 8y ago
      Granted. Though MIT publishes many of its course materials online for free. https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
  - CaliforniaKarl 8y ago
    It depends on which credential you're talking about. For some programs, it would be enough to have a book plus a series of lectures, along with the labs to complete and the exams to take. But, there are a few problems that need to be solved, which are not specific to academia. First is copyright. It's difficult enough to get through the copyright issues to produce printed lab material for a class; publishing online adds an additional layer: Material has to be licensed for unlimited distribution, in a way that is compliant with each country's copyright laws. Another is communication. This is more important for some programs, particularly the programs where there is heavy discussion involved (instead of just lectures), you need seamless, high-quality, real-time communication between people. And I'm not talking about G.729, or Speex. I'm talking uncompressed wide-band G.722, with low jitter and no packet loss. And at least voice communications is essential, because there is so much information that is lost when communication goes text-only. Ideally the conversation would be video, because there is information lost when you go audio-only. Both of these issues are things where the for-profit world needs to be leading the way. Educational institutions will fight for looser copyright restrictions all the time, to the point where the people in charge tune it out. Lobbying is also harder (not impossible, but harder to do), because you can risk the 501(c) status. Having for-profit companies pushing for looser copyright restrictions for education would massively help, by reducing barriers and making people less nervous about distributing material without the threat of copyright claims. As for communication, the distributed startups have been facing this problem head-on for some time, but I don't think there is a single Body of Knowledge that exists for the way to do one-way (lecture), two-way interactive (Q&A, office hours, etc.) and n-way collaborative (discussion session) most efficiently. It's one thing to talk about theory (we do that really well!), but the people in the startups are living this today. Give us the tried and tested Way To Do It, backed up by your experience.
    - anticensor 8y ago
      > First is copyright. It's difficult enough to get through the copyright issues to produce printed lab material for a class; publishing online adds an additional layer: Material has to be licensed for unlimited distribution, in a way that is compliant with each country's copyright laws. Most have fair use or fair dealing exemptions covering classroom and exercise use. Can you exemplify a jurisdiction that does not have enough fair use/dealing?
  - jimbokun 8y ago
    "Perhaps examinations should carry a modest fee, but why isn't more going into not just open courseware, but open degree programs?" "Grading" is really the only thing you are paying for, at this point. Many of the most prestigious institutions have put their lectures and course materials on line for free. But it doesn't do you much good to go to an employer and say "I went through all of the materials for all of the courses needed to get this MIT degree, and understood all of it, honest! So you should give me equal consideration as an MIT graduate!" The employer will be much more likely to hire the candidate who they can verify completed all of the degree requirements by just contacting MIT.
  - ghufran_syed 8y ago
    You mean like the university of London has done for over 100 years: https://london.ac.uk/ways-study/distance-learning https://london.ac.uk/ways-study/distance-learning https://london.ac.uk/courses https://london.ac.uk/courses Currently taking their graduate math diploma, from the London School of Economics (part of university of London),the whole thing will be around $3000, with the registration and exam fees separate, so you only pay for what you use, in a way
    - wallace_f 8y ago
      only $3,000? that's 2 years of income for someone living in India. even for most people living in the UK, that's a big chunk of change
      - ghufran_syed 8y ago
        I didn't say "only $3000", you did. I said "you only pay for what you use"
  - SeanAppleby 8y ago
    "The Case Against Education" by Bryan Caplan suggests a framing in which this makes sense. He more or less argues, with data and some interesting points, that the barriers to education are not a bug, and not only a feature, but perhaps the primary economic feature of our education system. A part of his argument is that people who get into elite schools and don't go to an elite school tend to have approximately the same life outcomes as people who go to elite schools, suggesting that the schools are just filtering for people who will be successful anyway and rubber stamping them. Another part is that, if education's economic value was through adding value to people by exposing them to valuable ideas and skills, then there should be some correlation between how deeply exposed you are to those resources and your life outcomes, but in reality there's really only a binary between whether or not you finish the degree. 7 semesters of college seems to do nothing significant for you if you don't get a piece of paper to show people, which is very strange if college actually adds any substantial value other than as a filter. There's more too. It's a polarizing book, but I think his framing is at least approximately correct, as it fits better with how the real world is working than any other framing of education I've seen, and if he's right, then the current paradigm of education is just fundamentally not scaleable, and really needs more fundamental restructuring than just giving it to more people.
    - wallace_f 8y ago
      I've heard many economists echo this argument. People who have the opportunity to attend an elite university and decline it would be doing so because their opportunity cost is better. But the question is still open: why should credentials not be open to fair competition? Shouldn't a poor woman in Africa be able to compete for the same computer science credentials, bar exams, medical exams (this would require further vetting of practical lab skills) as a Harvard student, through the same exams and projects? Of course, Harvard could still give its students its own stamp of approval, but the education and credentials should be open to competition, not behind walled gardens.
- CaliforniaKarl 8y ago
  For what it's worth, it's 23:30 here, and I'm on my laptop working on making sure that our internal ikiwiki is up-to-date with notes on the labs that I support. I'm going in for surgery on Thursday, and I've got Wednesday off (it's bowel surgery, so I'm doing all the annoying prep the day before). I also need to post on the appropriate Slack channels, so that my co-workers (who will be covering for me) know the docs are up-to-date. I also need to note anything things that might pop up, that don't justify wiki entries (like, tickets of note that are still open). I'll probably work until Midnight or 00:30, and then pick right up at it tomorrow morning, because _I want the docs to be up-to-date_. I was working on all that today and yesterday, but there was also the regular support load from my labs. Plus, one of my co-workers was stuck in a project to reverse-engineer a binary file format, and I was helping her through using the Python `struct` module for the first time. It would be nice if we had an extra employee to help shoulder the load, but he's out right now (his wife was in labor). My clients don't want to spend time managing technology. They just want to do the stuff they love, to do their research. But things like broken servers, laws, hackers, and the threat of negative PR, get in the way. I try to deal with all of that for them. I'm a staffer at a university. I already knew that some portion of the student body thought of us as parasites[1], but I didn't know that the outside world held the same view. [1]: https://stanfordreview.org/stanfords-administrative-bloat-is-out-of-control/ https://stanfordreview.org/stanfords-administrative-bloat-is...
  - hurricaneSlider 8y ago
    To be fair, I don't think they're referring to your job when talking about 'parasites'
    - asciident 8y ago
      I think people are just parroting soundbites they hear like "the number of administrators keep growing and are causing the tuition increases." In reality, what's happening is way too complex to be described in a single or even a few sentences. The role of universities is expanding. Should universities play a role in the local communities? Should they do research? Should they perform outreach to improve diversity? Should they accommodate all facets of student life? Should they have sports? Should they teach courses to non-students? Should they fundraise? Should they support extracurriculars and provide leadership opportunities? Should they offer financial aid? Should they manage real estate and parking? Should they resolve disputes among faculty and students and departments? Should they invest their endowment? Should they support alumni? Basically, each of these needs a team of people to manage.
- time-domain0 8y ago
  I worked in both research and profit-center sides at a so-called non-profit private university everyone knows by name with a ten figure endowment management company. They wasted $150 million on a campus-wide accounting system that consultants failed to deploy something usable. And, an 8 year old $30 million donated building was torn down to make way for a $120 million complex with underground parking. They have money to burn, even in economic downturns... they do the feigning poverty routine with so-called budget cutbacks that are ostensibly to cut spending but are in fact false signals to game donors into donating more. Nearly all US universities are so flush with cash that they're constantly rebuilding to attract customers (ie students). The scamming ones must have owners and executives taking the money and running, because there's no way they can go bankrupt unless they're trying hard to do so and/or completely incompetent at managing business survival. PS: The associate vice provost of a dept I worked for was reimbursed $80-100 from the university for dinner nearly every night, had a free suite just off campus (worth $3000/month) and seriously requested helicopter rides to work. They were in-charge of the biggest cash-cow besides undergraduate tuition, netting around $200 million annually.
  - keithpeter 8y ago
    UK: Local universities have developed new building syndrome. In some cases a definite enhancement (Birmingham University's new sports centre adds an olympic sized swimming pool and offers community engagement, BCU is moving everything onto one campus as much as possible and financing building by selling land, Aston is upgrading teaching rooms and lab space). But also some projects not so much clear reason - demolishing functional libraries and replacing them with buildings that have fewer seats &c (although disabled access could have been an issue in one case). The biggie is large scale speculative development of student residences. That bubble is going to have to burst soon...
  - itronitron 8y ago
    I did the math on a local state university and figured their annual revenue is about $1B based on tuition and enrollment. While I think the school is managed well, it certainly doesn't feel or look like it is run as a billion dollar business.
- ataturk 8y ago
  Seriously. My niece went to a high priced college and now works as a florist. I'm not saying don't go to college, but maybe have a better plan and some backup plans beforehand?
- TheCondor 8y ago
  I recently interviewed a lot of fresh grads to hire on as junior developers. I was taken aback a few times. I had a candidate with a “computer science” degree that didn’t know what a linked list is. The general trend was that basic data structures are abstract concepts, which probably isn’t super unusual with most modern languages as you shouldn’t need to implement a hash table or tree. I guess it was the “computer science” vs “programming” or “software development” in the degree name. Algorithmic complexity was also abstract. Formal verification or algorithmic profs? It was like I asked a question in a foreign language. These are grads from “state universities” My take away is that a lot of universities are pinched between being vocational schools and “University” The for profit places at least do away with the idea that they aren’t vocational schools, it’s all about a job. It seems like “college” or “university” should maybe be used more sparingly in their names. That might lower the value prop a little but theyre starting to puss in everybody’s soup.
  - infinite8s 8y ago
    So what did they know? How to program in Java or python?
  - not_real_acct 8y ago
    > I recently interviewed a lot of fresh grads to hire on as junior developers. I was taken aback a few times. I had a candidate with a “computer science” degree that didn’t know what a linked list is. This was something that infuriated me about college. We were taught about linked lists, and how CPU registers work at the physical level, and two or three languages that nobody uses. And then I went out looking for a job and nobody gives a shit about this. I've been in the industry for decades and I've never had any use for a linked list.
    - chrisbennet 8y ago
      You should never need to write one but I think it is still good to learn it. I for one, have never used a hash table or regex (in 30 years!) but I’m sure some developers use them all the time.
  - 8y ago
- magduf 8y ago
  That's the whole point of any company: to richly reward the people at the top.
cityzen 8y ago
The frontline episode from 2010 is also good: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/
hammock 8y ago
>These companies target people who dream of a better life and then convince them to take-out massive loans. Kind of like... Kind of like... The federal government vs the taxpayer! www.usdebtclock.org

danieltillett 8y ago

It is a pity that many of the not-for-profit colleges are not any better - instead of profit the money goes to keeping an ever increasing number of parasites (sometimes called administrators) in cushy jobs.

wallace_f 8y ago
In 2018, with trillions in public and not-for-profit money, and modern info-tech... If a poor kid in India, or anywhere, with an internet wanted to study for a world-class education, is there any legitimately ethical reason everyone should not be able to do this freely, and also be able to earn credentials through exams? Perhaps examinations should carry a modest fee, but why isn't more going into not just open courseware, but open degree programs? Shouldn't the presitigious universities be finding ways to educate, train and credential as many people as possible, rather than maintaining barriers to entry to their educational materials? Or do we need to perpetuate prestige and social strata through these institutions' selective commitees?
- YaxelPerez 8y ago
  Yeah, see that's the whole point of those institutions. It's all just signaling. Harvard could let in twice as many people easily, but then it would stop being the "best school" because acceptance rate affects school ranking. Instead of focusing on those schools, why don't we as a society try to remove the stigma of going to community college or learning a trade?
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Well, and the ratio of faculty to students would be worsened, facilities would get overextended, many students wouldn’t be able to live on campus, etc. I agree with your broader point though and indeed Harvard does have Harvard Extension School and was one of the founders of edX.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
      > Harvard does have Harvard Extension School Yes, and my wife is currently pursuing a graduate degree through there. It requires 3 on-site classes, and appears to be just a rigorous as a degree program in person.
- alexbecker 8y ago
  But there is no money or prestige in that. Harvard didn't get a $37B endowment by trying to level the playing field.
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    Granted. Though MIT publishes many of its course materials online for free. https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
- CaliforniaKarl 8y ago
  It depends on which credential you're talking about. For some programs, it would be enough to have a book plus a series of lectures, along with the labs to complete and the exams to take. But, there are a few problems that need to be solved, which are not specific to academia. First is copyright. It's difficult enough to get through the copyright issues to produce printed lab material for a class; publishing online adds an additional layer: Material has to be licensed for unlimited distribution, in a way that is compliant with each country's copyright laws. Another is communication. This is more important for some programs, particularly the programs where there is heavy discussion involved (instead of just lectures), you need seamless, high-quality, real-time communication between people. And I'm not talking about G.729, or Speex. I'm talking uncompressed wide-band G.722, with low jitter and no packet loss. And at least voice communications is essential, because there is so much information that is lost when communication goes text-only. Ideally the conversation would be video, because there is information lost when you go audio-only. Both of these issues are things where the for-profit world needs to be leading the way. Educational institutions will fight for looser copyright restrictions all the time, to the point where the people in charge tune it out. Lobbying is also harder (not impossible, but harder to do), because you can risk the 501(c) status. Having for-profit companies pushing for looser copyright restrictions for education would massively help, by reducing barriers and making people less nervous about distributing material without the threat of copyright claims. As for communication, the distributed startups have been facing this problem head-on for some time, but I don't think there is a single Body of Knowledge that exists for the way to do one-way (lecture), two-way interactive (Q&A, office hours, etc.) and n-way collaborative (discussion session) most efficiently. It's one thing to talk about theory (we do that really well!), but the people in the startups are living this today. Give us the tried and tested Way To Do It, backed up by your experience.
  - anticensor 8y ago
    > First is copyright. It's difficult enough to get through the copyright issues to produce printed lab material for a class; publishing online adds an additional layer: Material has to be licensed for unlimited distribution, in a way that is compliant with each country's copyright laws. Most have fair use or fair dealing exemptions covering classroom and exercise use. Can you exemplify a jurisdiction that does not have enough fair use/dealing?
- jimbokun 8y ago
  "Perhaps examinations should carry a modest fee, but why isn't more going into not just open courseware, but open degree programs?" "Grading" is really the only thing you are paying for, at this point. Many of the most prestigious institutions have put their lectures and course materials on line for free. But it doesn't do you much good to go to an employer and say "I went through all of the materials for all of the courses needed to get this MIT degree, and understood all of it, honest! So you should give me equal consideration as an MIT graduate!" The employer will be much more likely to hire the candidate who they can verify completed all of the degree requirements by just contacting MIT.
- ghufran_syed 8y ago
  You mean like the university of London has done for over 100 years: https://london.ac.uk/ways-study/distance-learning https://london.ac.uk/ways-study/distance-learning https://london.ac.uk/courses https://london.ac.uk/courses Currently taking their graduate math diploma, from the London School of Economics (part of university of London),the whole thing will be around $3000, with the registration and exam fees separate, so you only pay for what you use, in a way
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    only $3,000? that's 2 years of income for someone living in India. even for most people living in the UK, that's a big chunk of change
    - ghufran_syed 8y ago
      I didn't say "only $3000", you did. I said "you only pay for what you use"
- SeanAppleby 8y ago
  "The Case Against Education" by Bryan Caplan suggests a framing in which this makes sense. He more or less argues, with data and some interesting points, that the barriers to education are not a bug, and not only a feature, but perhaps the primary economic feature of our education system. A part of his argument is that people who get into elite schools and don't go to an elite school tend to have approximately the same life outcomes as people who go to elite schools, suggesting that the schools are just filtering for people who will be successful anyway and rubber stamping them. Another part is that, if education's economic value was through adding value to people by exposing them to valuable ideas and skills, then there should be some correlation between how deeply exposed you are to those resources and your life outcomes, but in reality there's really only a binary between whether or not you finish the degree. 7 semesters of college seems to do nothing significant for you if you don't get a piece of paper to show people, which is very strange if college actually adds any substantial value other than as a filter. There's more too. It's a polarizing book, but I think his framing is at least approximately correct, as it fits better with how the real world is working than any other framing of education I've seen, and if he's right, then the current paradigm of education is just fundamentally not scaleable, and really needs more fundamental restructuring than just giving it to more people.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    I've heard many economists echo this argument. People who have the opportunity to attend an elite university and decline it would be doing so because their opportunity cost is better. But the question is still open: why should credentials not be open to fair competition? Shouldn't a poor woman in Africa be able to compete for the same computer science credentials, bar exams, medical exams (this would require further vetting of practical lab skills) as a Harvard student, through the same exams and projects? Of course, Harvard could still give its students its own stamp of approval, but the education and credentials should be open to competition, not behind walled gardens.
CaliforniaKarl 8y ago
For what it's worth, it's 23:30 here, and I'm on my laptop working on making sure that our internal ikiwiki is up-to-date with notes on the labs that I support. I'm going in for surgery on Thursday, and I've got Wednesday off (it's bowel surgery, so I'm doing all the annoying prep the day before). I also need to post on the appropriate Slack channels, so that my co-workers (who will be covering for me) know the docs are up-to-date. I also need to note anything things that might pop up, that don't justify wiki entries (like, tickets of note that are still open). I'll probably work until Midnight or 00:30, and then pick right up at it tomorrow morning, because _I want the docs to be up-to-date_. I was working on all that today and yesterday, but there was also the regular support load from my labs. Plus, one of my co-workers was stuck in a project to reverse-engineer a binary file format, and I was helping her through using the Python `struct` module for the first time. It would be nice if we had an extra employee to help shoulder the load, but he's out right now (his wife was in labor). My clients don't want to spend time managing technology. They just want to do the stuff they love, to do their research. But things like broken servers, laws, hackers, and the threat of negative PR, get in the way. I try to deal with all of that for them. I'm a staffer at a university. I already knew that some portion of the student body thought of us as parasites[1], but I didn't know that the outside world held the same view. [1]: https://stanfordreview.org/stanfords-administrative-bloat-is-out-of-control/ https://stanfordreview.org/stanfords-administrative-bloat-is...
- hurricaneSlider 8y ago
  To be fair, I don't think they're referring to your job when talking about 'parasites'
  - asciident 8y ago
    I think people are just parroting soundbites they hear like "the number of administrators keep growing and are causing the tuition increases." In reality, what's happening is way too complex to be described in a single or even a few sentences. The role of universities is expanding. Should universities play a role in the local communities? Should they do research? Should they perform outreach to improve diversity? Should they accommodate all facets of student life? Should they have sports? Should they teach courses to non-students? Should they fundraise? Should they support extracurriculars and provide leadership opportunities? Should they offer financial aid? Should they manage real estate and parking? Should they resolve disputes among faculty and students and departments? Should they invest their endowment? Should they support alumni? Basically, each of these needs a team of people to manage.
time-domain0 8y ago
I worked in both research and profit-center sides at a so-called non-profit private university everyone knows by name with a ten figure endowment management company. They wasted $150 million on a campus-wide accounting system that consultants failed to deploy something usable. And, an 8 year old $30 million donated building was torn down to make way for a $120 million complex with underground parking. They have money to burn, even in economic downturns... they do the feigning poverty routine with so-called budget cutbacks that are ostensibly to cut spending but are in fact false signals to game donors into donating more. Nearly all US universities are so flush with cash that they're constantly rebuilding to attract customers (ie students). The scamming ones must have owners and executives taking the money and running, because there's no way they can go bankrupt unless they're trying hard to do so and/or completely incompetent at managing business survival. PS: The associate vice provost of a dept I worked for was reimbursed $80-100 from the university for dinner nearly every night, had a free suite just off campus (worth $3000/month) and seriously requested helicopter rides to work. They were in-charge of the biggest cash-cow besides undergraduate tuition, netting around $200 million annually.
- keithpeter 8y ago
  UK: Local universities have developed new building syndrome. In some cases a definite enhancement (Birmingham University's new sports centre adds an olympic sized swimming pool and offers community engagement, BCU is moving everything onto one campus as much as possible and financing building by selling land, Aston is upgrading teaching rooms and lab space). But also some projects not so much clear reason - demolishing functional libraries and replacing them with buildings that have fewer seats &c (although disabled access could have been an issue in one case). The biggie is large scale speculative development of student residences. That bubble is going to have to burst soon...
- itronitron 8y ago
  I did the math on a local state university and figured their annual revenue is about $1B based on tuition and enrollment. While I think the school is managed well, it certainly doesn't feel or look like it is run as a billion dollar business.
ataturk 8y ago
Seriously. My niece went to a high priced college and now works as a florist. I'm not saying don't go to college, but maybe have a better plan and some backup plans beforehand?
TheCondor 8y ago
I recently interviewed a lot of fresh grads to hire on as junior developers. I was taken aback a few times. I had a candidate with a “computer science” degree that didn’t know what a linked list is. The general trend was that basic data structures are abstract concepts, which probably isn’t super unusual with most modern languages as you shouldn’t need to implement a hash table or tree. I guess it was the “computer science” vs “programming” or “software development” in the degree name. Algorithmic complexity was also abstract. Formal verification or algorithmic profs? It was like I asked a question in a foreign language. These are grads from “state universities” My take away is that a lot of universities are pinched between being vocational schools and “University” The for profit places at least do away with the idea that they aren’t vocational schools, it’s all about a job. It seems like “college” or “university” should maybe be used more sparingly in their names. That might lower the value prop a little but theyre starting to puss in everybody’s soup.
- infinite8s 8y ago
  So what did they know? How to program in Java or python?
- not_real_acct 8y ago
  > I recently interviewed a lot of fresh grads to hire on as junior developers. I was taken aback a few times. I had a candidate with a “computer science” degree that didn’t know what a linked list is. This was something that infuriated me about college. We were taught about linked lists, and how CPU registers work at the physical level, and two or three languages that nobody uses. And then I went out looking for a job and nobody gives a shit about this. I've been in the industry for decades and I've never had any use for a linked list.
  - chrisbennet 8y ago
    You should never need to write one but I think it is still good to learn it. I for one, have never used a hash table or regex (in 30 years!) but I’m sure some developers use them all the time.
- 8y ago
magduf 8y ago
That's the whole point of any company: to richly reward the people at the top.

cityzen 8y ago

The frontline episode from 2010 is also good: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/collegeinc/

hammock 8y ago

>These companies target people who dream of a better life and then convince them to take-out massive loans. Kind of like... Kind of like... The federal government vs the taxpayer! www.usdebtclock.org