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iOS now forcing "While Using" option on all apps is the greatest thing ever. Before this, some apps where forcing the "Always" option on users. Uber and Waze co

iOS now forcing "While Using" option on all apps is the greatest thing ever. Before this, some apps where forcing the "Always" option on users. Uber and Waze come to mind. iOS also gives you a warning from time to time about apps using your location in the background. I think iOS right now has the best location management. --- People are surprised when seeing the Activity section in Google's account details, then freak out about Google tracking their location. At the very least Google is being transparent about it and gives you the option to turn that shit off. Also I was pleasantly surprised to discover that Google Maps now remembers searches you've made without location history or app activity tracking being active. This wasn't the case about a year ago, when I last tried it, a dark pattern of sorts. They probably changed the behavior being forced by the GDPR or something similar. So if you haven't done so, turn off "Location History" in your Google account: https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols (I turn everything off and I don't see a difference in usability) --- On the article, I love the maps and the animations. Visualization is the best way to make people understand the threat. On GDPR, I've seen people complaining about the high cost for implementing it, however for privacy it is a godsend.

darren_ 8y ago
> Also I was pleasantly surprised to discover that Google Maps now remembers searches you've made without location history or app activity tracking being active. This wasn't the case about a year ago, when I last tried it, a dark pattern of sorts. They probably changed the behavior being forced by the GDPR or something similar. Location history wasn't ever needed for remembering searches, FWIW.
- amaccuish 8y ago
  > Location history wasn't ever needed for remembering searches It absolutely was. When I tapped on the search bar, there were no results and it told me to turn on location history.
  - wendigo 8y ago
    Nonetheless, I actually don’t enjoy seeing my search history accumulate on my device. Half of my searches are just spell checks anyway, the next 40% are just wikipedia shortcuts. Probably less than one in ten searches are genuine queries, to scour for a real result. The number is small enough that I pretty much can directly remember the thing I was thinking about, and why I searched for it. I don’t even want my device saving my recent searches.
    - bad_user 8y ago
      Your preference is not very relevant for people that need to remember their searches though.
      - inetknght 8y ago
        People that need to remember their searches should configure their preferences in such a fashion.
        bad_user 8y ago
        Let's not talk past each other. An app can remember preferences and searches locally, without synchronizing them to a central server. Requiring that the server remembers those searches only if you agree to having your activity tracked is a dark pattern. Which is what we are talking about.
        zaroth 8y ago
        And this is very much still present in the latest version on my iPhone anyway. I still see a big prompt to turn on Web & App Activity I order to “Get the most from Maps” — which includes saving “Work” and “Home” favorites. Boo :-(
        sa1 8y ago
        You don't see that prompt if you aren't signed in.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jacquesm 8y ago
You can't turn it 'off', you can 'pause' it. That's a linguistic difference, sure, but it is quite telling that there is no respect at all for a users desires even in the language that is hardcoded in. It's as annoying as 'not now' for 'no' or '10 different things you should know about "x"', when you really should not.
- bad_user 8y ago
  I agree, the language is annoying and they've also been guilty of dark patterns for getting users to re-enable it. But being an EU citizen, I'm confident that they can't turn it on, legally, without explicit permission.
  - ThaJay 8y ago
    They can't legally, but for them to stop someone has to go through the process of proving this in court.
    - bad_user 8y ago
      Where I live there are consumer protection state agencies that handle the suing for you, if the case is strong enough. You just have to file a complaint and I've had great success in the past. And GDPR is taken seriously, the EU requiring and sponsoring agencies that check for compliance in all EU countries. Don't know how it is in the U.S. but I imagine that at the very least you can group with others in class action lawsuits, such that the effort of any one individual will be lower. As long as it is illegal of course, otherwise you don't have a case. I heard California is adopting something similar to the GDPR too.
      - seslaire 8y ago
        In Hungary for instance, one can simply send an e-mail with the necessary details of the complaint to NAIH, the National Authority for Data Protection and Freedom of Information, and within the legally mandated period of 60 days, they will carry out the necessary investigation and enforce both national law and GDPR.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Despegar 8y ago
>On GDPR, I've seen people complaining about the high cost for implementing it The bigger cost is to people's privacy, which is hard to quantify and hard for people to articulate why it's necessary. Collection and use of people's data is opaque and not at all transparent. Which is why GDPR and other privacy legislation is needed.
- ballenf 8y ago
  Complaining about the cost of respecting user privacy is like complaining about having to clean up after your company's pollution or carbon emissions.
kop316 8y ago
I respectfully disagree on Google being entirely transparent about tracking location, especially if you run Android + Google Play Services. I have a tablet (Pixel C) that runs LineageOS + Google Play Services and a Phone (Nexus 5x) that runs LineageOS vanilla (no MicroG, no UnifiedNLP, no Google Play Services). Some things I have noted: - When you install MicroG/Google Play Services, they take over location services (i.e. they run in /system/priv-app, and if you disable their location, location on the device is disabled totally). - Android by default has the default on option to scan wifi and Bluetooth when you turn them off to find wifi/bluetooth and coorelate it to your location. - On my Pixel C, when if I try "high accuracy" or "battery saver" mode Location services, Google Play has tried to force me to agree to their location tracking and I have disagreed every single time. Location services does not work if I use "device only" (which is supposed to only use GPS). - I have noted that on my phone now, if I disable location and then reenable it when I have moved more than 20-30 miles, the GPS has to reacquire the signal and can take up to 2 minutes (I also tried it when I drove several hundred miles, it took several minutes to reacquire). This is indicative of the GPS module being off totally. This was not so when it had Google Play Services on, it was able to reacquire my location extremely quickly, sometimes almost instantaneously even if I moved a long distance. I suspect that Google Play was still tracking my location even if I turned off location services (due to it totally controlling my location). - EDIT: Another interesting note is that on my phone has had location services off and then turned just back on (i.e. no GPS lock), it appears to give the last time GPS was acquired as my current location. OSMAnd shows that location but says it doesn't know my location, but other apps do not realize that. I am suspecting that Android does not necessarily have a "stale" location, just the last reported location. Putting my tin foil hat, I hypothesize Google anonymously tracks your location even if your location services if off (allowing them to do traffic, how busy a restaurant is, etc.). EDIT: As correctly pointed out, networked assisted GPS is a thing, and may also play into the differences in GPS reacquiring. I believe that network assisted GPS is in AOSP. When I turn on and off GPS in Android, it appears to have the almanac for where to look for satellites based on SatStat, and how quickly my phone acquires the GPS signal is a function of where it used to be compared to where it is now. In addition, UnifiedNLP [1] scans for networks/cell towers and correlates it to location, it does not appear to implement networked assisted GPS. [1] https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp
zanny 8y ago
I at least get a substantial value add to my life having Google track me everywhere. It might be overly sentimental but being able to see everywhere I've been in the last ~seven years on Maps feels to me like one of the great innovations Google has made. If people accept Google will sell that data to subsidize the cost of persisting it you get a permanent record of everywhere you've gone. I think its cool to have. Its something you can probably build off the shelf - log position with durations, draw vectors on Open Street Maps. But Google has already given me the convenience in exchange for my privacy. Its one of the rare times I'm alright with that tradeoff.
- amgutier 8y ago
  I love that Google Photos is able to add location information to my old photos and pictures I take on my actual camera without manually mapping everything. It's surprisingly accurate and really enjoy seeing where all I've been over time.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    I love that Google Photos is able to add location information to my old photos and pictures I take on my actual camera without manually mapping everything. It's surprisingly accurate and really enjoy seeing where all I've been over time. Apple's phones and computers do this, too. This is not unique to Google. What is unique to Google is that Google uses the information to profile you, while Apple just uses the information to draw a map.
- mindslight 8y ago
  Stating it as a direct trade for the service being no charge is fallacious in that Google does not actually give you the option to just pay money for the service/storage and skip the surveillance. Instead, the true price remains nebulous - with your "permanent record" continuing to grow and becoming ever more of a liability. It's certainly possible to develop user-centric software with the same functionality and polish, at a grassroots level. The fact that the industry is being dominated by VC money looking for scalable winner-takes-all growth is indicative of the magnitude of what's really at stake.
Redoubts 8y ago
> People are surprised when seeing the Activity section in Google's account details, then freak out about Google tracking their location. For the curious: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline https://www.google.com/maps/timeline
Tsubasachan 8y ago
If carriers let outsiders buy cell tower data there is literally nothing you can do except switch on airplane mode.
- chii 8y ago
  Or, complain to the local gov't/FCC/consumer ombudsman that carriers are selling this data without consent from the consumer. Embroil them in a PR nightmare. Make it costly.
  - Tsubasachan 8y ago
    Honestly do you expect that the US will ever embrace consumer rights? Anyway I just get cynical when I see people talk about how evil Google is and how Apple protects privacy. Every company you do business with WILL sell of your personal data and that includes mobile operators, banks and ISPs. Until that is illegal the entire discussion about privacy is irrelevant and a sham.
  - krageon 8y ago
    It doesn't need to come from the towers as we recently saw from the whole Qualcomm thing. There's not really any use burying a Chinese company in a "PR nightmare", because A. they don't care and B. if it becomes a real problem they will resurface with a different name. That being the case, you can of course fight here for a meaningless victory. I cannot imagine a reason to, however.
- jamaicahest 8y ago
  What do you mean if: https://www.zdnet.com/article/us-cell-carriers-selling-access-to-real-time-location-data/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/us-cell-carriers-selling-acces...
isoprophlex 8y ago
Strange, for me Google maps doesn't remember anything I searched for. It tells me to turn on location history. And I'm an EU citizen. Google can fuck right off with their location tracking. When I got my phone, it defaulted to asking me invasive questions about places I was visiting. The option to turn off those nag screens was hidden so deeply I felt compelled to neuter the entire shebang. Disgusting dark patterns. Screenshot taken just now: https://imgur.com/a/ewSCeRn https://imgur.com/a/ewSCeRn My next phone will be an Apple device due to this insidious crap.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  My next phone will be an Apple device due to this insidious crap. This kind of insidious crap is the reason I've never considered Android as an option. I have two Android devices for work, and they both stay in my work desk drawer. I'd never take them off campus.
bello 8y ago
> At the very least Google is being transparent about it and gives you the option to turn that shit off I thought I had turned it off. But I'm also using Google Fit, that somehow stores location history even if you've turned it off in maps. There's no way to turn it off. Even better, when you try to delete the 'Location' data through the google settings, you'll get an 'An error was encountered while deleting data form Fit' (https://twitter.com/belloaleksander/status/1070008790907445249 https://twitter.com/belloaleksander/status/10700087909074452...)

darren_ 8y ago

> Also I was pleasantly surprised to discover that Google Maps now remembers searches you've made without location history or app activity tracking being active. This wasn't the case about a year ago, when I last tried it, a dark pattern of sorts. They probably changed the behavior being forced by the GDPR or something similar. Location history wasn't ever needed for remembering searches, FWIW.

amaccuish 8y ago
> Location history wasn't ever needed for remembering searches It absolutely was. When I tapped on the search bar, there were no results and it told me to turn on location history.
- wendigo 8y ago
  Nonetheless, I actually don’t enjoy seeing my search history accumulate on my device. Half of my searches are just spell checks anyway, the next 40% are just wikipedia shortcuts. Probably less than one in ten searches are genuine queries, to scour for a real result. The number is small enough that I pretty much can directly remember the thing I was thinking about, and why I searched for it. I don’t even want my device saving my recent searches.
  - bad_user 8y ago
    Your preference is not very relevant for people that need to remember their searches though.
    - inetknght 8y ago
      People that need to remember their searches should configure their preferences in such a fashion.
      - bad_user 8y ago
        Let's not talk past each other. An app can remember preferences and searches locally, without synchronizing them to a central server. Requiring that the server remembers those searches only if you agree to having your activity tracked is a dark pattern. Which is what we are talking about.
        zaroth 8y ago
        And this is very much still present in the latest version on my iPhone anyway. I still see a big prompt to turn on Web & App Activity I order to “Get the most from Maps” — which includes saving “Work” and “Home” favorites. Boo :-(
        sa1 8y ago
        You don't see that prompt if you aren't signed in.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

jacquesm 8y ago

You can't turn it 'off', you can 'pause' it. That's a linguistic difference, sure, but it is quite telling that there is no respect at all for a users desires even in the language that is hardcoded in. It's as annoying as 'not now' for 'no' or '10 different things you should know about "x"', when you really should not.

bad_user 8y ago
I agree, the language is annoying and they've also been guilty of dark patterns for getting users to re-enable it. But being an EU citizen, I'm confident that they can't turn it on, legally, without explicit permission.
- ThaJay 8y ago
  They can't legally, but for them to stop someone has to go through the process of proving this in court.
  - bad_user 8y ago
    Where I live there are consumer protection state agencies that handle the suing for you, if the case is strong enough. You just have to file a complaint and I've had great success in the past. And GDPR is taken seriously, the EU requiring and sponsoring agencies that check for compliance in all EU countries. Don't know how it is in the U.S. but I imagine that at the very least you can group with others in class action lawsuits, such that the effort of any one individual will be lower. As long as it is illegal of course, otherwise you don't have a case. I heard California is adopting something similar to the GDPR too.
    - seslaire 8y ago
      In Hungary for instance, one can simply send an e-mail with the necessary details of the complaint to NAIH, the National Authority for Data Protection and Freedom of Information, and within the legally mandated period of 60 days, they will carry out the necessary investigation and enforce both national law and GDPR.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Despegar 8y ago

>On GDPR, I've seen people complaining about the high cost for implementing it The bigger cost is to people's privacy, which is hard to quantify and hard for people to articulate why it's necessary. Collection and use of people's data is opaque and not at all transparent. Which is why GDPR and other privacy legislation is needed.

ballenf 8y ago
Complaining about the cost of respecting user privacy is like complaining about having to clean up after your company's pollution or carbon emissions.

kop316 8y ago

I respectfully disagree on Google being entirely transparent about tracking location, especially if you run Android + Google Play Services. I have a tablet (Pixel C) that runs LineageOS + Google Play Services and a Phone (Nexus 5x) that runs LineageOS vanilla (no MicroG, no UnifiedNLP, no Google Play Services). Some things I have noted: - When you install MicroG/Google Play Services, they take over location services (i.e. they run in /system/priv-app, and if you disable their location, location on the device is disabled totally). - Android by default has the default on option to scan wifi and Bluetooth when you turn them off to find wifi/bluetooth and coorelate it to your location. - On my Pixel C, when if I try "high accuracy" or "battery saver" mode Location services, Google Play has tried to force me to agree to their location tracking and I have disagreed every single time. Location services does not work if I use "device only" (which is supposed to only use GPS). - I have noted that on my phone now, if I disable location and then reenable it when I have moved more than 20-30 miles, the GPS has to reacquire the signal and can take up to 2 minutes (I also tried it when I drove several hundred miles, it took several minutes to reacquire). This is indicative of the GPS module being off totally. This was not so when it had Google Play Services on, it was able to reacquire my location extremely quickly, sometimes almost instantaneously even if I moved a long distance. I suspect that Google Play was still tracking my location even if I turned off location services (due to it totally controlling my location). - EDIT: Another interesting note is that on my phone has had location services off and then turned just back on (i.e. no GPS lock), it appears to give the last time GPS was acquired as my current location. OSMAnd shows that location but says it doesn't know my location, but other apps do not realize that. I am suspecting that Android does not necessarily have a "stale" location, just the last reported location. Putting my tin foil hat, I hypothesize Google anonymously tracks your location even if your location services if off (allowing them to do traffic, how busy a restaurant is, etc.). EDIT: As correctly pointed out, networked assisted GPS is a thing, and may also play into the differences in GPS reacquiring. I believe that network assisted GPS is in AOSP. When I turn on and off GPS in Android, it appears to have the almanac for where to look for satellites based on SatStat, and how quickly my phone acquires the GPS signal is a function of where it used to be compared to where it is now. In addition, UnifiedNLP [1] scans for networks/cell towers and correlates it to location, it does not appear to implement networked assisted GPS. [1] https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_UnifiedNlp

zanny 8y ago

I at least get a substantial value add to my life having Google track me everywhere. It might be overly sentimental but being able to see everywhere I've been in the last ~seven years on Maps feels to me like one of the great innovations Google has made. If people accept Google will sell that data to subsidize the cost of persisting it you get a permanent record of everywhere you've gone. I think its cool to have. Its something you can probably build off the shelf - log position with durations, draw vectors on Open Street Maps. But Google has already given me the convenience in exchange for my privacy. Its one of the rare times I'm alright with that tradeoff.

amgutier 8y ago
I love that Google Photos is able to add location information to my old photos and pictures I take on my actual camera without manually mapping everything. It's surprisingly accurate and really enjoy seeing where all I've been over time.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  I love that Google Photos is able to add location information to my old photos and pictures I take on my actual camera without manually mapping everything. It's surprisingly accurate and really enjoy seeing where all I've been over time. Apple's phones and computers do this, too. This is not unique to Google. What is unique to Google is that Google uses the information to profile you, while Apple just uses the information to draw a map.
mindslight 8y ago
Stating it as a direct trade for the service being no charge is fallacious in that Google does not actually give you the option to just pay money for the service/storage and skip the surveillance. Instead, the true price remains nebulous - with your "permanent record" continuing to grow and becoming ever more of a liability. It's certainly possible to develop user-centric software with the same functionality and polish, at a grassroots level. The fact that the industry is being dominated by VC money looking for scalable winner-takes-all growth is indicative of the magnitude of what's really at stake.

Redoubts 8y ago

> People are surprised when seeing the Activity section in Google's account details, then freak out about Google tracking their location. For the curious: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline https://www.google.com/maps/timeline

Tsubasachan 8y ago

If carriers let outsiders buy cell tower data there is literally nothing you can do except switch on airplane mode.

chii 8y ago
Or, complain to the local gov't/FCC/consumer ombudsman that carriers are selling this data without consent from the consumer. Embroil them in a PR nightmare. Make it costly.
- Tsubasachan 8y ago
  Honestly do you expect that the US will ever embrace consumer rights? Anyway I just get cynical when I see people talk about how evil Google is and how Apple protects privacy. Every company you do business with WILL sell of your personal data and that includes mobile operators, banks and ISPs. Until that is illegal the entire discussion about privacy is irrelevant and a sham.
- krageon 8y ago
  It doesn't need to come from the towers as we recently saw from the whole Qualcomm thing. There's not really any use burying a Chinese company in a "PR nightmare", because A. they don't care and B. if it becomes a real problem they will resurface with a different name. That being the case, you can of course fight here for a meaningless victory. I cannot imagine a reason to, however.
jamaicahest 8y ago
What do you mean if: https://www.zdnet.com/article/us-cell-carriers-selling-access-to-real-time-location-data/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/us-cell-carriers-selling-acces...

isoprophlex 8y ago

Strange, for me Google maps doesn't remember anything I searched for. It tells me to turn on location history. And I'm an EU citizen. Google can fuck right off with their location tracking. When I got my phone, it defaulted to asking me invasive questions about places I was visiting. The option to turn off those nag screens was hidden so deeply I felt compelled to neuter the entire shebang. Disgusting dark patterns. Screenshot taken just now: https://imgur.com/a/ewSCeRn https://imgur.com/a/ewSCeRn My next phone will be an Apple device due to this insidious crap.

reaperducer 8y ago
My next phone will be an Apple device due to this insidious crap. This kind of insidious crap is the reason I've never considered Android as an option. I have two Android devices for work, and they both stay in my work desk drawer. I'd never take them off campus.

bello 8y ago

> At the very least Google is being transparent about it and gives you the option to turn that shit off I thought I had turned it off. But I'm also using Google Fit, that somehow stores location history even if you've turned it off in maps. There's no way to turn it off. Even better, when you try to delete the 'Location' data through the google settings, you'll get an 'An error was encountered while deleting data form Fit' (https://twitter.com/belloaleksander/status/1070008790907445249 https://twitter.com/belloaleksander/status/10700087909074452...)