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Being black in this industry really, really sucks. I'm certain that for the vast majority of people I interact with on a daily basis, it doesn't even cross thei

Being black in this industry really, really sucks. I'm certain that for the vast majority of people I interact with on a daily basis, it doesn't even cross their minds. But living with an unending fear of having your entire self worth immediately judged at the color of your skin is something that no other race lives with in this industry. I have to immediately force myself to be twice as charming, friendly, witty, and intelligent sounding as the equivalent white or Asian person just to be taken seriously. I don't really know that there's any solution to this, it's just something we have to live with.

ddorian43 8y ago
And who's fault is it according to you ?
- brianmcc 8y ago
  Sometimes it's good for people to have the chance to simply vent, tbh. Don't need to assign blame, or come up with "solutions". Sounds like GP has had a tough time and we should maybe simply sympathise.
  - claudiawerner 8y ago
    Not only that, but the idea that blame can even be assigned, individually or collectively, is up for question. Nobody is really to blame for structural issues or operating within a framework which seems natural or unquestioned or even unquestionable.
- EpicBlackCrayon 8y ago
  I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but this just sounds incredibly accusatory.
  - ddorian43 8y ago
    Yes but not at him. Probably at the ones who hire black women to fill numbers.
    - sctb 8y ago
      Posting like this (I would say unsubstantive flamebait but really it's just dross) will get your account banned. Please stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
beaconstudios 8y ago
Why do you feel this is? I'm pretty sure the industry skews liberal-to-progressive so I would assume there aren't that many racists in software development.
- ascendantlogic 8y ago
  The face people put on publicly vs their inner monologue can be vastly different. Words and actions can and do regularly diverge.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-black-people-new-study-contends/?utm_term=.d50e0ecb9186 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liber...
    - ascendantlogic 8y ago
      Human psychology and social interaction is infinitely complex and murky.
- graphitezepp 8y ago
  Oh their are plenty of racists in software development don't be fooled by the lip service companies dole out.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  Oh man. Being liberal doesn't by default make you perfectly non-discriminatory.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    I mean, no one on earth is perfectly non discriminatory. But liberal to progressive people at least hold the idea that it is a moral imperative not to discriminate and at least try not to. Of course people will always face a certain level of subconscious discrimination from others, but the way OP described their experience made it seem like they were the target of overt / willing discrimination and I wanted to know what they had experienced to make them feel that way.
nimbius 8y ago
Ibram X Kendi speaks about this in his book "Stamped from The Beginning." The concept is called upward-suasion, and was designed 200 years ago to dispel common myths and stereotypes about blacks at the time. Essentially if you're twice as nice, then white people will accept you as an equal. Of course, it didnt work. Regardless of how nice and polite W.E.B. Du Bois was, the state department still revoked his passport for his uncomfortable habit of reporting systemic racism in America to European and British intellectuals. Dont feel like you owe people anything. Be yourself. Speaking as a card-carrying white male who works as an engine mechanic, the thing that makes an industry suck (or anything for that matter) is racists. Rebuilding the drivetrain on a box truck is hard work, but its doubly unpleasant having to listen to some old grease-monkey lecture you on what they think about "the negro."
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>The concept is called upward-suasion If it was only just that, its actually a lot more that. You have prove that you have un-blackened yourself. Dissociate from your communities, and have renounced the community's ways(so-called). More like the other side needs to be made to feel you are one among them. It's a soul crushing exercise. Its undoing of one's identity. And it's very humiliating to undergo all this.
  - tcoff91 8y ago
    That’s awful that you have to go through that.
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    If it makes you feel any better, corporate culture is soul-crushing to anyone with a soul. Which isn't to devalue your experience - speech patterns in particular are likely an area where you have to code-switch much more drastically than, say, northern whites.
  - deleted 8y ago
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  - zabana 8y ago
Consultant32452 8y ago
I've been in this industry for going on 20 years now, spent 5 years bouncing around as a consultant and I've personally never worked with a black developer. I can't imagine what it's like for you. Hang in there man, I hope you make it.
protomyth 8y ago
But living with an unending fear of having your entire self worth immediately judged at the color of your skin is something that no other race lives with in this industry I agree with you in everything but that sentence. Others suffer some pretty painful misconceptions, or worse, are ignored.
duxup 8y ago
It is a different experience (especially general life experience) ... but I feel the same way being over 40 years old. In interviews I got a lot of "culture" questions where younger folks who I went to school with who interviewed at the same place ... reported getting no such questions. It's easy to imagine that is about age. Another classmate actually had a recruiter straight up say his age was a concern, when he asked her to repeat that, she straight up repeated it apparently having no clue how wrong it was. Not exactly the same as race, but I feel like I have to prove myself a bit more all the time.
- deleted 8y ago
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- brandall10 8y ago
  I'm turning 43 in a few months and estimate I have talked to some 50 companies since turning 40, the vast majority I passed on and only perceived one interview where I felt like age discrimination came into play. I landed my prior position just past 40, which was a small startup, and my current at a larger company a few months ago. I do come off rather young in person, but my resume is clear about my work experience, graduation date and so on. Even with the one case where I suspected age discrimination was at play it was only after the fact when the recruiter said the company passed because they decided to go with someone more 'malleable' (for a sr. role, mind you) where the average engineer was probably about 25 yo. Not saying it's not an issue, there's many reports out there of people experiencing it, but perhaps it's more restricted to the valley or not quite as common as implied. I say this as someone who was nervous about entering my 40s for this reason alone and have been pleasantly surprised to find it to be a non-issue for myself.
  - duxup 8y ago
    No question about it there is a huge range of companies out there, some it's not an issue for.
- rongenre 8y ago
  Not remotely the same as race.
zabana 8y ago
> I have to immediately force myself to be twice as charming, friendly, witty, and intelligent sounding as the equivalent white or Asian person just to be taken seriously. I'm of North African descent, born and raised in france and this passage really hit home. > I don't really know that there's any solution to this, it's just something we have to live with. Unfortunately there isn't. I don't know much about the American social structure and context, but over here, colonialist views are very much embedded into the collective subconscious, leading to sometimes very despicable behaviour (even though it may not be malicious). The thing I find the most difficult is to suppress the urge of turning this into a "Us vs Them" thing because reality is much more complex than what we perceive but living with an inner "respectability police officer" can become extremely tiring. All of this to say that I choose to ignore the noise and focus on the positive. At the end of the day, we live in an era where this is how the game is played and we've been dealt a bad hand. I accept it and will do everything I can to help create a world where my children don't have to go through the same things as me. I will end my comment with a piece of actionable advice anybody in a similar position might benefit from: Make yourself visible. I say this because a lot of the younger kids in my racial group (north west/west africa) don't even consider this industry as a viable career option even though they may have an interest or a strong ability. They just dismiss the possibility entirely. This doesn't mean we have to force our kids to become SWDs/POs/PMs/<insert tech job du jour>s but making yourself visible (via youtube videos, conference talks, going to local schools to introduce your job ...) can have a massive impact in having those kids think "Hey he/she looks like me, maybe I can follow a similar path". EDIT: added last paragraph
- mc32 8y ago
  I think one model, among other efforts, would be thr BET model. Form SW orgs servjng enterprises (much opportunity) and grow organically. As they earn a reputation other SW dev orgs will begin poaching devs to strengthen their orgs and also help to bring more black Americans into tech in general. Of course that’s not the only path to seek, but it’s one that’s worked for other underrepresrnted populations.
- janzij 8y ago
  >I'm of North African descent, born and raised in france and this passage really hit home. I am Spanish and my interactions with Maghrebis have been overwhelmingly negative. And on top of that all I hear in the news is how Maghrebis are pickpocketing people, how they are raping women, how they are living off welfare. I am human, it's normal that I'm prejudiced. That does not mean I'll simply ignore what you say, but yes, you will need to prove you're not a fucking idiot. And if you don't like it, well, I'm sorry, but...
whack 8y ago
I agree with you, and you're not alone in this. The amount of hatred and condescension I hear from American developers towards anyone from India, is frankly startling. I'm sure a lot of this stems from prior bad experiences, and part of it stems from outsourcing fears. But it's still saddening that so many otherwise good people see nothing wrong with casual stereotyping.
- curtis 8y ago
  One thing to keep in mind is that there is a big difference between Indian developers who work for outsourcing firms in India and Indian developers who work directly for American firms here in the States. I've personally worked with a lot of great Indian developers (H1Bs, naturalized U.S. citizens, and native born U.S. citizens). I've never worked with an Indian outsourcing firm, but I've also never heard anything good about them from people who have.
  - whack 8y ago
    I get where you're coming from and there may even be some statistical truth to what you're saying. But that's still no excuse for stereotyping and rude behavior. I would much rather live in a world where people are judged as individuals, and not the demographic group they belong to.
kamaal 8y ago
>>something that no other race lives with in this industry. As a brown muslim from India, let me tell you its the same with a lot of other people as well. You get burned on language, color, race, nationality and religion end. Its like you tick all the check boxes on a racists checklist.
- wernercd 8y ago
  This - everyone judges everyone. It's not an American thing. It's not a black/white thing. It's a "Humans are judgmental pricks without fail" thing. I think it's disingenuous to say "only my people REALLY suffer. You suffer... but not like we suffer". Skin color is one part - and the listed parts (language, color, race, nationality, religion) are only the beginning. Sex, sexuality, eye color, hair color, height, weight, etc, etc, etc.
  - antepodius 8y ago
    It's going to be a lot of fun in the coming years as people start problematising more and more group classes.
- Consultant32452 8y ago
  I have to imagine it's more difficult for Indians. You were placed, through no fault of your own, as the enemy of the domestic worker. You were brought in, or outsourced to, for the explicit purpose of suppressing the wages of domestic workers. So this is an additional layer of potential negativity on top of plain old racism/in-group preference/etc that other minorities might face.
merpnderp 8y ago
How do you know it's racism?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  Why are blacks always put in a position to have to answer this very question?
  - steveeq1 8y ago
    Because the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - wpietri 8y ago
      Only if the claim is particularly novel. If you say that your computer failed when the power went out, you'd rightly be irritated if somebody asked you for proof. One is expected to have a certain base level of knowledge before jumping into a discussion.
      - steveeq1 8y ago
        No it's not. If you claim "my computer doesn't work" and your fixit guy says "yes it does", it is up the person making the claim to show that it doesn't work. Otherwise, no one will take you seriously.
- GVIrish 8y ago
  Here's the thing, you don't always necessarily know. But your mind is always doing that extra calculation to figure out what is going on. "Is this person questioning my credentials because they question everyone's credentials?" "Was that crude comment made because they're just oblivious or because they're actually racist?" "Does this person treat everyone just as poorly, is it something I'm doing, or is it prejudice?" Having to do that double mental processing can be exhausting if you're in an environment where people are insensitive or outright offensive. Some people handle it better than others but it can take its toll on anyone.
k__ 8y ago
Yes, this really sucks. While I evaluate people I interact with on a individual level, I often have stereotypes in my head about people I don't directly interact with. When I see people of color or women in the industry, my first thought is always "ah yes, diversity". When I see white dudes I think aboit what he does and knows.
southphillyman 8y ago
I've never worked with another black engineer and have only worked closely with another black person on a team (PM) over 10 yrs. That being said I wouldn't say the industry sucks, especially compared to other industries. The majority of people I work with are intelligent so that's step 1 in regards to people being able to reason beyond basic stereotypes and attitudes. I appreciate being a representative of sorts even if it's unfair. I have worked with some conservative types who have moved to tech centers from less diverse areas and take the opportunity to explain certain things to them logically and for the most part they understand. Professionally I usually get glowing feedback and reviews and at times I have suspected it's because expectations were lower (imposter syndrome). All I can do is try to represent myself the best that I can
- busterarm 8y ago
  I have unfortunately twice been involved in hiring decisions where we had interviewed very qualified black engineers who were good culture/team fits, but the company decided to go with a different candidate because someone else on the team 'got along with that other candidate better'. Both times that other candidate didn't work out (like, they were straight up terrible people to work with). It's frustrating and I can't imagine how frustrating it is on the other side of the table.
  - denverkarma 8y ago
    Unfortunately it cuts both ways. I’ve been in hiring meetings where people from underrepresented backgrounds applied but really didn’t have the required skills, they got hired anyway because the company wanted to feel good about hiring diversity, and then the people really struggled down the line - in one case the person got fired, in another case quit. I don’t know how we get there but we eventually need to just get over skin color. When we interact with other people we generally don’t even notice or think about what color eyes or what their nose shape is. We should be able to get to that point regarding all aspects of physical appearance.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    It seems you are either intimating that you knowingly kowtowed to someone's racist choice, or that team-fit should be given different priority depending on the race of the applicant? The latter would sound like "I'm racist; but it's against non- blacks!". The former seems like something you could call out? But, are you sure you didn't just assume it was racism; perhaps because you dislike the people involved.
zarkov99 8y ago
I believe you that it sucks. Do you yourself believe that the main reason blacks are unrepresented in the tech industry is racism?
rcatcher 8y ago
> I have to immediately force myself to be twice as charming, friendly, witty, and intelligent sounding as the equivalent white or Asian person just to be taken seriously. While this may be true, I find the problem you are describing to be much worse for immigrants (of every colour and race) who speak with thick accent. https://qz.com/624335/the-reason-you-discriminate-against-foreign-accents-starts-with-what-they-do-to-your-brain/ https://qz.com/624335/the-reason-you-discriminate-against-fo...
- pathseeker 8y ago
  That's not really the same thing. If you're speaking with an accent thick enough that it's causing difficulty understanding what you are saying, then that's a legitimate communications barrier.
  - deleted 8y ago
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wpietri 8y ago
And for those white people about to be skeptical, let me say as a fellow white person that you are unlikely to see this. Partly because it's often subtle, and partly because many obvious examples won't happen around you. In fact, let me tell a story. I was once working at a large, successful tech company as a manager. One of my interns was black. Super sharp, very personable, in an ivy league college, and, as will become relevant, a very sharp dresser. The average white male developer wore a t-shirt and a hoodie; he wore nice, stylish collared shirts. Every day he looked good. Between our area and the nearest kitchenette was an elevator lobby. One day, he gets up to get more coffee, walks into the elevator lobby, goes to the other side, and realizes he left his badge on his desk. He is now trapped. Now I had done that exact same thing more than once. What happened to me? Well, I waited around for somebody to walk by, tapped on the door, and said, "So sorry, I just left my badge on my desk." They'd smile in recognition, say something pleasant, and wave me in. What happened to him in the same situation? He got the third degree. Who was he? Who did he work for? What did he work on? How long had he worked there? Etc, etc. It was clear the (white) guy he was talking to was suspicious that he didn't belong there, that he was not the programmer intern he said he was. When he got back to his desk he looked distressed. I, not wanting my interns to be unhappy, pried a bit. He told me the story, leaving out any details on the person. He was confident it was unconscious bias; he didn't think his fellow programmer meant harm and didn't want to get him in trouble. But still, it bothered him. Even in this supposedly very cerebral, very liberal place, people immediately saw him as not belonging. That of course wouldn't have happened if he'd had me with him. Because if I, a white person, were treating him as if he belonged, then he would have been seen as belonging there by the other white people. Now as a good corporate citizen I (with his permission) mentioned this to HR. I thought they'd want to know that an unconscious bias incident had happened. No names, nobody getting in trouble. Just letting them know so they could tally it and, if the numbers warranted, give more training on unconscious bias. Not just for interviews, which we already had, but more generally. I quickly got a reply back from a high-up HR lawyer, who was entirely defensive. Their main point was that surely this (anonymous) white person couldn't have meant anything by it, that there was no legal problem here. Well duh, I used the words "unconscious bias", so of course I knew there was nothing meant by it. I just wanted them to take it seriously, because actual harm had been done. But they gave me the brush-off. Happily, I also talked to the black employee resource group, who jumped on it. The intern ended up feeling heard and that the incident was taken seriously. Which was a relief to me. But it made me aware how often this sort of nonsense happened, and how rarely the harm it does to my black colleagues gets taken at all seriously.
mr_tristan 8y ago
There is a weird belief, that's particularly American, that if you're not outwardly hateful towards black people, you're not racist. Even the dictionary definition of racism often includes concepts like racial superiority. So I guess a lot of tech folk aren't really that kind of hateful, ignorant racist. But to me, you can be racist if you simply compartmentalize someone else based on their race. It's a conversation that's rarely had, and it's significant. People can grasp hate, and violence. But they can't really see the effects of simply seeing someone as "other" based on race. And it's everywhere in the US. It's strange. Americans just don't have deep vocabulary for ethnicity, really. It's all just race.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  Yes, but we fundamentally see others for their otherness. I'm not tall, and solid statistics say it's a disadvantage in the corporate world. You could claim that Black otherness has special characteristics and this being hackernews I would assume good faith and believe you that racism in its non-outward facet is palpable and ethically bad. But that's not what you said -- you said people compartmentalize and that's bad period. That's an interesting kind of misguided.
- jefurii 8y ago
  A lot of white people (disclaimer: I'm white) think in extremely individualist ways about a host of issues. They do not seem willing or capable of thinking at the level of the system/society/culture. They pat themselves on the back because they are polite to individual people of color in their circles while supporting (or not opposing) legislation that harms people of color. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr is spot-on in his frustration with "the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
rootusrootus 8y ago
That is so unfair. I wish there was a way we could get over this shit. I have a new team member joining us in a couple weeks and he's black. My intent is to try damn hard to completely ignore that fact, without appearing to be ignoring it, if that makes any sense. Where I live is predominantly white, so he definitely will stand out. As far as I can remember, there is exactly one other black employee on the entire floor. I'm probably just worrying for nothing. We really do have a team of good people and I'm not just saying that.
- jaemison 8y ago
  Believe it or not, one of the worst things that you can do is try to ignore it. Ask any minority why “I don’t even see race, just people” is so infuriating. By ignoring the issue, you are also effectively minimizing or erasing the other person’s experience as not the majority. Let your coworker come to you as they are. Take them to coffee, get to know them, and ask how you can help them feel welcome and be at their best at work. Sounds like a lot of work and effort on your part, but the burden is on you the majority to earn back the trust broken by lived experience. This is also not guaranteed to work. You’re fighting against a mindset developed over someone’s lifetime that’s akin to an alarm that you might think is noisy and not tuned properly but has become necessary for this person’s survival and psychological safety because they face threats to those things at a frequency and level you never have to see. Racism isn’t the act of acknowledging someone’s otherness, it’s letting that otherness drive your interactions with someone and not giving them the opportunity to talk about who they are as a person. Racism is every time you go to lunch, it’s a barbecue place and you don’t invite your coworker because you don’t want them to think you’re stereotyping but you also don’t want to talk to them so you just go without them anyway without asking your coworker if they want to come because it’s easier. Racism isn’t the act of starting the uncomfortable conversations, it’s not giving those conversations a time and place to happen at all.
  - 38sp 8y ago
    > the burden is on you the majority to earn back the trust broken by lived experience. A single person can not be a majority, and claiming someone has a responsibility to treat someone with kid gloves because they are a member of the majority race is pretty extreme. I really have a hard time believing someone actually believes the thoughts expressed in this post. Doing any of this in your workplace is a terrible idea.
rorykoehler 8y ago
>self worth immediately judged at the color of your skin is something that no other race lives with I beg to differ. In Asia being white is a massive advantage. It's literally the reverse of what you describe. It weirds me out tbh. Sorry you have to deal with the opposite.
cooperadymas 8y ago
Honest question, is this a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? You expect to be judged by the color of your skin, so you act constantly in fear of being judged, making your time in the industry "suck" as you put it? Obviously it would be foolish to think that no one out there is prejudiced, or that there are no systematic problems in certain places, but based on what you said here it sounds like you have not so much encountered these situations personally, rather you have lived in fear of encountering them.
- aphextron 8y ago
  >Honest question, is this a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? You expect to be judged by the color of your skin, so you act constantly in fear of being judged, making your time in the industry "suck" as you put it? It may very well be self-fulfilling. But my point is that this issue doesn't exist for white people. You can live with the fear of impostor syndrome and not feeling qualified enough, etc. But your completely unchangeable physical appearance does not contribute to that. Every shortcoming that could possibly exclude you from any job is within your control to fix and work on, whereas we will always be left with this single unpredictable variable no matter what.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Unless you're a short white person, or god forbid a white woman. White women would love to have even the advantages of a black man (respected or feared instead of marginalized, become president etc)
    - sj3k 8y ago
      ummmmmm what?
    - drharby 8y ago
      I think you are missing the forest for the trees
      - 8y ago
deltron3030 8y ago
You fight against visual stereotypes and hierarchies related to that, which are burned into peoples minds. I don‘t think that it‘s race specific, it happens to everybody in a way. When it comes to computers and tech, people expect nerds, and behaviors associated with that. If you don‘t look like a nerd, people will assume that you joined that profession from a different background, that you didn‘t program as a kid and therefor can‘t match their ideal, or stereotype.
benj111 8y ago
I'm not US based, or in the industry so I don't have any direct experience, but your experience is surprising to hear. From what I understood there was more a problem with sexism than racism in tech. Also from my understanding Hispanics have also been marginalised (thought maybe not to the same extent). Id appreciate your thoughts.
- idontpost 8y ago
  Racism is fundamental to virtually every social interaction in the US. It's not always virulent or violent, but it is always present.
  - umvi 8y ago
    Racism is rampant in virtually every first world country but US's brand of racism gets the most media coverage. Many European countries are extremely racist toward gypsies/romani. When I lived in Italy, the Italians were openly derisive to anyone that looked eastern european, even if they were complete strangers ("careful around those romani down the street, they are all liars and thieves"). Good luck getting a job at an italian-owned business if you are of eastern european decent. Japan is also extremely racist toward non-Japanese people to the point they will only let you live in foreigner-quarantined housing complexes.
  - mandevil 8y ago
    Don't think it's just the US. I once worked with an otherwise lovely Swedish software engineer, who was constantly spouting anti-Danish "jokes" and insults. It was disconcerting. I wasn't sure whether to stand up for the Danes, tell him a lie that my mother was Danish, or what. Is anti-Danish racism even a thing?
  - wpietri 8y ago
    I'm not sure why this is getting downvoted. Those skeptical should watch this recent lecture from Dr. Robin DiAngelo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ey4jgoxeU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ey4jgoxeU Or they might also read the book the talk was based on: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0807047414 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0807047414
aielojgf 8y ago
would it suck less if blacks were held to the same standards as other races when hiring?
matz1 8y ago
I accepted that life is unfair, the solution to this is what you already said, try to be more powerful, smarter, stronger, 'better' than them, in other words, force them to respect me. That's the only solution. Likewise, I admit I to sometime discriminate or being racist to other people. For these people, same solution, they have to force me to respect them.
hangonhn 8y ago
First, I'm really sorry that things are the way they are for black people. It's simply enormously sad. And it's not just the tech industry. It happens in other fields too. A really good buddy of mine is a top notch surgeon. He did his undergrad, med school, residency, and then fellowship at Ivy Leagues and Stanford. He's black. During his fellowship, one of the surgeons he worked under would always introduce him to other people at the hospital by always emphasizing his credentials. The catch here is that he only did it with my friend and none of the other fellows. My friend was the only black fellow. The surgeon meant well but he felt the need to assure all the patients that the black doctor is just as good if not better than all the other doctors. Little differences like that is what my friend lives with every day. When my friend visited me in Silicon Valley he told me it's not that diverse -- at least not in the way we would want diversity to work. He told me that next time I go out to eat, I should look through the windows of all the nice restaurants I walk by and see who the customers are and who the workers are. My friend is right. There are under and upper classes in SV and it's often clustered by race. I never noticed because I'm Asian and I'm in the group that benefited.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  All true, except the conclusion that it's directly due to race. It can also be socioeconomic class that creates the correlation, which is also correlated to race. Not much difference in the end of course, and still a major societal issue. But a different one.
  - hangonhn 8y ago
    I'm not saying it's because of race -- if I wrote it that way then thanks for the correction. It just happen to correlate strongly with race. I don't know the underlying cause is and your hypothesis is close to my own. I mainly wanted to emphasize my own blindness to this trend because I had benefited from it.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      I'm in the same boat. Its easy to just accept folks in roles without thinking about it. E.g. I'm naturally gregarious, will chat up folks in line at the gas station buying a Coke etc. I noticed one day I didn't chat up anybody that didn't look like me. So I started.
mbrumlow 8y ago
I would like to point out this your perspective, and does not mean it actually relefects reality. Your feelings are valid but also can be misplaced at the same time. I think it is a poor way to start the day assuming everybody is going to think the worse is you. That may be something a support group or therapy might help with. I say this comming from a place where I suffered the same issues. And found changing my attitude actually changed how I viewed other people. Please don't take my reply as a attack on you. I simply feel your reply reflects similar views I had held at one point in life. And I found not worrying and not setting expectations on my peers really helped me to feel at home in situations that made me feel much like you describe. On the other hand I can't possibly know your entire story from a small bit you shared.
inZaw2ChlJ 8y ago
Really? I am British white and I have the opposite problem. In my company, they have gone out of their way to promote non-white people and my achievements and accomplishments have been overlooked. I feel like I have to work at least 2x harder and accomplish more than non-white or non-male people to be given any credit, respect, or the promotions I think I deserve. Once, at a company meeting to discuss recruiting, my direct manager thanked the non-white and non-male, and non-heterosexual people for bringing diversity to the company in front of everyone. No one else was thanked or praised for anything there. My point is that we can probably all find something to complain about and it irks me that white people are accused of being racist and undeserving in tech roles. I certainly don't feel like I have any sort of privilege; quite the opposite. I suspect this will be downvoted which is proof of my point.
- WAthrowaway 8y ago
  It's almost as if you are missing the larger point being made and taking your own experience to be the sum total extent of the entire issue.
- pathseeker 8y ago
  This is the issue that pro "diversity program" people need to come to terms with. If these programs end up causing reverse discrimination, you just end up punishing majority members unjustly. Knowing that black people have it harder on average is not consoling to someone who got passed over because they didn't fulfill enough diversity check-boxes as another candidate.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  There’s only two possibilities. Either white people are undeserving of tech roles... Or white people are superior to black people. You have to pick one or the other. I don’t see a third way to explain an employment gap.
Diederich 8y ago
If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions at the bottom. This is from what is said to be the post in question, cached here: https://outline.com/RVSLKq https://outline.com/RVSLKq "On a personal note, at least two or three times a day, every day, a colleague at MPK [Facebook headquarters in Menlo Park] will look directly at me and tap or hold their wallet or shove their hands down their pocket to clutch it tightly until I pass. The frequency is even higher when walking through Classic campus or Building 20. To feel like an oddity at your own place of employment because of the color of your skin while passing posters reminding you to be your authentic self feels in itself inauthentic." So I'm a pretty typical privileged white guy working for Facebook at MPK. I care about diversity, and more importantly, I acknowledge these kinds of problem, even without knowing most of the details. This just blows me away: "...a colleague ... will look directly at me and tap or hold their wallet or shove their hands down their pocket to clutch it tightly until I pass..." So first, I'll just ask: does this mirror your experience? Can you talk more about that? What can I do to help my peers not be physically afraid of black people?? Thanks for your attention.

ddorian43 8y ago

And who's fault is it according to you ?

brianmcc 8y ago
Sometimes it's good for people to have the chance to simply vent, tbh. Don't need to assign blame, or come up with "solutions". Sounds like GP has had a tough time and we should maybe simply sympathise.
- claudiawerner 8y ago
  Not only that, but the idea that blame can even be assigned, individually or collectively, is up for question. Nobody is really to blame for structural issues or operating within a framework which seems natural or unquestioned or even unquestionable.
EpicBlackCrayon 8y ago
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but this just sounds incredibly accusatory.
- ddorian43 8y ago
  Yes but not at him. Probably at the ones who hire black women to fill numbers.
  - sctb 8y ago
    Posting like this (I would say unsubstantive flamebait but really it's just dross) will get your account banned. Please stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

beaconstudios 8y ago

Why do you feel this is? I'm pretty sure the industry skews liberal-to-progressive so I would assume there aren't that many racists in software development.

ascendantlogic 8y ago
The face people put on publicly vs their inner monologue can be vastly different. Words and actions can and do regularly diverge.
- bluGill 8y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-black-people-new-study-contends/?utm_term=.d50e0ecb9186 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liber...
  - ascendantlogic 8y ago
    Human psychology and social interaction is infinitely complex and murky.
graphitezepp 8y ago
Oh their are plenty of racists in software development don't be fooled by the lip service companies dole out.
Waterluvian 8y ago
Oh man. Being liberal doesn't by default make you perfectly non-discriminatory.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  I mean, no one on earth is perfectly non discriminatory. But liberal to progressive people at least hold the idea that it is a moral imperative not to discriminate and at least try not to. Of course people will always face a certain level of subconscious discrimination from others, but the way OP described their experience made it seem like they were the target of overt / willing discrimination and I wanted to know what they had experienced to make them feel that way.

nimbius 8y ago

Ibram X Kendi speaks about this in his book "Stamped from The Beginning." The concept is called upward-suasion, and was designed 200 years ago to dispel common myths and stereotypes about blacks at the time. Essentially if you're twice as nice, then white people will accept you as an equal. Of course, it didnt work. Regardless of how nice and polite W.E.B. Du Bois was, the state department still revoked his passport for his uncomfortable habit of reporting systemic racism in America to European and British intellectuals. Dont feel like you owe people anything. Be yourself. Speaking as a card-carrying white male who works as an engine mechanic, the thing that makes an industry suck (or anything for that matter) is racists. Rebuilding the drivetrain on a box truck is hard work, but its doubly unpleasant having to listen to some old grease-monkey lecture you on what they think about "the negro."

kamaal 8y ago
>>The concept is called upward-suasion If it was only just that, its actually a lot more that. You have prove that you have un-blackened yourself. Dissociate from your communities, and have renounced the community's ways(so-called). More like the other side needs to be made to feel you are one among them. It's a soul crushing exercise. Its undoing of one's identity. And it's very humiliating to undergo all this.
- tcoff91 8y ago
  That’s awful that you have to go through that.
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  If it makes you feel any better, corporate culture is soul-crushing to anyone with a soul. Which isn't to devalue your experience - speech patterns in particular are likely an area where you have to code-switch much more drastically than, say, northern whites.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- zabana 8y ago

Consultant32452 8y ago

I've been in this industry for going on 20 years now, spent 5 years bouncing around as a consultant and I've personally never worked with a black developer. I can't imagine what it's like for you. Hang in there man, I hope you make it.

protomyth 8y ago

But living with an unending fear of having your entire self worth immediately judged at the color of your skin is something that no other race lives with in this industry I agree with you in everything but that sentence. Others suffer some pretty painful misconceptions, or worse, are ignored.

duxup 8y ago

It is a different experience (especially general life experience) ... but I feel the same way being over 40 years old. In interviews I got a lot of "culture" questions where younger folks who I went to school with who interviewed at the same place ... reported getting no such questions. It's easy to imagine that is about age. Another classmate actually had a recruiter straight up say his age was a concern, when he asked her to repeat that, she straight up repeated it apparently having no clue how wrong it was. Not exactly the same as race, but I feel like I have to prove myself a bit more all the time.

deleted 8y ago
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brandall10 8y ago
I'm turning 43 in a few months and estimate I have talked to some 50 companies since turning 40, the vast majority I passed on and only perceived one interview where I felt like age discrimination came into play. I landed my prior position just past 40, which was a small startup, and my current at a larger company a few months ago. I do come off rather young in person, but my resume is clear about my work experience, graduation date and so on. Even with the one case where I suspected age discrimination was at play it was only after the fact when the recruiter said the company passed because they decided to go with someone more 'malleable' (for a sr. role, mind you) where the average engineer was probably about 25 yo. Not saying it's not an issue, there's many reports out there of people experiencing it, but perhaps it's more restricted to the valley or not quite as common as implied. I say this as someone who was nervous about entering my 40s for this reason alone and have been pleasantly surprised to find it to be a non-issue for myself.
- duxup 8y ago
  No question about it there is a huge range of companies out there, some it's not an issue for.
rongenre 8y ago
Not remotely the same as race.

zabana 8y ago

> I have to immediately force myself to be twice as charming, friendly, witty, and intelligent sounding as the equivalent white or Asian person just to be taken seriously. I'm of North African descent, born and raised in france and this passage really hit home. > I don't really know that there's any solution to this, it's just something we have to live with. Unfortunately there isn't. I don't know much about the American social structure and context, but over here, colonialist views are very much embedded into the collective subconscious, leading to sometimes very despicable behaviour (even though it may not be malicious). The thing I find the most difficult is to suppress the urge of turning this into a "Us vs Them" thing because reality is much more complex than what we perceive but living with an inner "respectability police officer" can become extremely tiring. All of this to say that I choose to ignore the noise and focus on the positive. At the end of the day, we live in an era where this is how the game is played and we've been dealt a bad hand. I accept it and will do everything I can to help create a world where my children don't have to go through the same things as me. I will end my comment with a piece of actionable advice anybody in a similar position might benefit from: Make yourself visible. I say this because a lot of the younger kids in my racial group (north west/west africa) don't even consider this industry as a viable career option even though they may have an interest or a strong ability. They just dismiss the possibility entirely. This doesn't mean we have to force our kids to become SWDs/POs/PMs/<insert tech job du jour>s but making yourself visible (via youtube videos, conference talks, going to local schools to introduce your job ...) can have a massive impact in having those kids think "Hey he/she looks like me, maybe I can follow a similar path". EDIT: added last paragraph

mc32 8y ago
I think one model, among other efforts, would be thr BET model. Form SW orgs servjng enterprises (much opportunity) and grow organically. As they earn a reputation other SW dev orgs will begin poaching devs to strengthen their orgs and also help to bring more black Americans into tech in general. Of course that’s not the only path to seek, but it’s one that’s worked for other underrepresrnted populations.
janzij 8y ago
>I'm of North African descent, born and raised in france and this passage really hit home. I am Spanish and my interactions with Maghrebis have been overwhelmingly negative. And on top of that all I hear in the news is how Maghrebis are pickpocketing people, how they are raping women, how they are living off welfare. I am human, it's normal that I'm prejudiced. That does not mean I'll simply ignore what you say, but yes, you will need to prove you're not a fucking idiot. And if you don't like it, well, I'm sorry, but...

whack 8y ago

I agree with you, and you're not alone in this. The amount of hatred and condescension I hear from American developers towards anyone from India, is frankly startling. I'm sure a lot of this stems from prior bad experiences, and part of it stems from outsourcing fears. But it's still saddening that so many otherwise good people see nothing wrong with casual stereotyping.

curtis 8y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that there is a big difference between Indian developers who work for outsourcing firms in India and Indian developers who work directly for American firms here in the States. I've personally worked with a lot of great Indian developers (H1Bs, naturalized U.S. citizens, and native born U.S. citizens). I've never worked with an Indian outsourcing firm, but I've also never heard anything good about them from people who have.
- whack 8y ago
  I get where you're coming from and there may even be some statistical truth to what you're saying. But that's still no excuse for stereotyping and rude behavior. I would much rather live in a world where people are judged as individuals, and not the demographic group they belong to.

kamaal 8y ago

>>something that no other race lives with in this industry. As a brown muslim from India, let me tell you its the same with a lot of other people as well. You get burned on language, color, race, nationality and religion end. Its like you tick all the check boxes on a racists checklist.

wernercd 8y ago
This - everyone judges everyone. It's not an American thing. It's not a black/white thing. It's a "Humans are judgmental pricks without fail" thing. I think it's disingenuous to say "only my people REALLY suffer. You suffer... but not like we suffer". Skin color is one part - and the listed parts (language, color, race, nationality, religion) are only the beginning. Sex, sexuality, eye color, hair color, height, weight, etc, etc, etc.
- antepodius 8y ago
  It's going to be a lot of fun in the coming years as people start problematising more and more group classes.
Consultant32452 8y ago
I have to imagine it's more difficult for Indians. You were placed, through no fault of your own, as the enemy of the domestic worker. You were brought in, or outsourced to, for the explicit purpose of suppressing the wages of domestic workers. So this is an additional layer of potential negativity on top of plain old racism/in-group preference/etc that other minorities might face.

merpnderp 8y ago

How do you know it's racism?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
Why are blacks always put in a position to have to answer this very question?
- steveeq1 8y ago
  Because the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - wpietri 8y ago
    Only if the claim is particularly novel. If you say that your computer failed when the power went out, you'd rightly be irritated if somebody asked you for proof. One is expected to have a certain base level of knowledge before jumping into a discussion.
    - steveeq1 8y ago
      No it's not. If you claim "my computer doesn't work" and your fixit guy says "yes it does", it is up the person making the claim to show that it doesn't work. Otherwise, no one will take you seriously.
GVIrish 8y ago
Here's the thing, you don't always necessarily know. But your mind is always doing that extra calculation to figure out what is going on. "Is this person questioning my credentials because they question everyone's credentials?" "Was that crude comment made because they're just oblivious or because they're actually racist?" "Does this person treat everyone just as poorly, is it something I'm doing, or is it prejudice?" Having to do that double mental processing can be exhausting if you're in an environment where people are insensitive or outright offensive. Some people handle it better than others but it can take its toll on anyone.

k__ 8y ago

Yes, this really sucks. While I evaluate people I interact with on a individual level, I often have stereotypes in my head about people I don't directly interact with. When I see people of color or women in the industry, my first thought is always "ah yes, diversity". When I see white dudes I think aboit what he does and knows.

southphillyman 8y ago

I've never worked with another black engineer and have only worked closely with another black person on a team (PM) over 10 yrs. That being said I wouldn't say the industry sucks, especially compared to other industries. The majority of people I work with are intelligent so that's step 1 in regards to people being able to reason beyond basic stereotypes and attitudes. I appreciate being a representative of sorts even if it's unfair. I have worked with some conservative types who have moved to tech centers from less diverse areas and take the opportunity to explain certain things to them logically and for the most part they understand. Professionally I usually get glowing feedback and reviews and at times I have suspected it's because expectations were lower (imposter syndrome). All I can do is try to represent myself the best that I can

busterarm 8y ago
I have unfortunately twice been involved in hiring decisions where we had interviewed very qualified black engineers who were good culture/team fits, but the company decided to go with a different candidate because someone else on the team 'got along with that other candidate better'. Both times that other candidate didn't work out (like, they were straight up terrible people to work with). It's frustrating and I can't imagine how frustrating it is on the other side of the table.
- denverkarma 8y ago
  Unfortunately it cuts both ways. I’ve been in hiring meetings where people from underrepresented backgrounds applied but really didn’t have the required skills, they got hired anyway because the company wanted to feel good about hiring diversity, and then the people really struggled down the line - in one case the person got fired, in another case quit. I don’t know how we get there but we eventually need to just get over skin color. When we interact with other people we generally don’t even notice or think about what color eyes or what their nose shape is. We should be able to get to that point regarding all aspects of physical appearance.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  It seems you are either intimating that you knowingly kowtowed to someone's racist choice, or that team-fit should be given different priority depending on the race of the applicant? The latter would sound like "I'm racist; but it's against non- blacks!". The former seems like something you could call out? But, are you sure you didn't just assume it was racism; perhaps because you dislike the people involved.

zarkov99 8y ago

I believe you that it sucks. Do you yourself believe that the main reason blacks are unrepresented in the tech industry is racism?

rcatcher 8y ago

> I have to immediately force myself to be twice as charming, friendly, witty, and intelligent sounding as the equivalent white or Asian person just to be taken seriously. While this may be true, I find the problem you are describing to be much worse for immigrants (of every colour and race) who speak with thick accent. https://qz.com/624335/the-reason-you-discriminate-against-foreign-accents-starts-with-what-they-do-to-your-brain/ https://qz.com/624335/the-reason-you-discriminate-against-fo...

pathseeker 8y ago
That's not really the same thing. If you're speaking with an accent thick enough that it's causing difficulty understanding what you are saying, then that's a legitimate communications barrier.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

wpietri 8y ago

And for those white people about to be skeptical, let me say as a fellow white person that you are unlikely to see this. Partly because it's often subtle, and partly because many obvious examples won't happen around you. In fact, let me tell a story. I was once working at a large, successful tech company as a manager. One of my interns was black. Super sharp, very personable, in an ivy league college, and, as will become relevant, a very sharp dresser. The average white male developer wore a t-shirt and a hoodie; he wore nice, stylish collared shirts. Every day he looked good. Between our area and the nearest kitchenette was an elevator lobby. One day, he gets up to get more coffee, walks into the elevator lobby, goes to the other side, and realizes he left his badge on his desk. He is now trapped. Now I had done that exact same thing more than once. What happened to me? Well, I waited around for somebody to walk by, tapped on the door, and said, "So sorry, I just left my badge on my desk." They'd smile in recognition, say something pleasant, and wave me in. What happened to him in the same situation? He got the third degree. Who was he? Who did he work for? What did he work on? How long had he worked there? Etc, etc. It was clear the (white) guy he was talking to was suspicious that he didn't belong there, that he was not the programmer intern he said he was. When he got back to his desk he looked distressed. I, not wanting my interns to be unhappy, pried a bit. He told me the story, leaving out any details on the person. He was confident it was unconscious bias; he didn't think his fellow programmer meant harm and didn't want to get him in trouble. But still, it bothered him. Even in this supposedly very cerebral, very liberal place, people immediately saw him as not belonging. That of course wouldn't have happened if he'd had me with him. Because if I, a white person, were treating him as if he belonged, then he would have been seen as belonging there by the other white people. Now as a good corporate citizen I (with his permission) mentioned this to HR. I thought they'd want to know that an unconscious bias incident had happened. No names, nobody getting in trouble. Just letting them know so they could tally it and, if the numbers warranted, give more training on unconscious bias. Not just for interviews, which we already had, but more generally. I quickly got a reply back from a high-up HR lawyer, who was entirely defensive. Their main point was that surely this (anonymous) white person couldn't have meant anything by it, that there was no legal problem here. Well duh, I used the words "unconscious bias", so of course I knew there was nothing meant by it. I just wanted them to take it seriously, because actual harm had been done. But they gave me the brush-off. Happily, I also talked to the black employee resource group, who jumped on it. The intern ended up feeling heard and that the incident was taken seriously. Which was a relief to me. But it made me aware how often this sort of nonsense happened, and how rarely the harm it does to my black colleagues gets taken at all seriously.

mr_tristan 8y ago

There is a weird belief, that's particularly American, that if you're not outwardly hateful towards black people, you're not racist. Even the dictionary definition of racism often includes concepts like racial superiority. So I guess a lot of tech folk aren't really that kind of hateful, ignorant racist. But to me, you can be racist if you simply compartmentalize someone else based on their race. It's a conversation that's rarely had, and it's significant. People can grasp hate, and violence. But they can't really see the effects of simply seeing someone as "other" based on race. And it's everywhere in the US. It's strange. Americans just don't have deep vocabulary for ethnicity, really. It's all just race.

thanatropism 8y ago
Yes, but we fundamentally see others for their otherness. I'm not tall, and solid statistics say it's a disadvantage in the corporate world. You could claim that Black otherness has special characteristics and this being hackernews I would assume good faith and believe you that racism in its non-outward facet is palpable and ethically bad. But that's not what you said -- you said people compartmentalize and that's bad period. That's an interesting kind of misguided.
jefurii 8y ago
A lot of white people (disclaimer: I'm white) think in extremely individualist ways about a host of issues. They do not seem willing or capable of thinking at the level of the system/society/culture. They pat themselves on the back because they are polite to individual people of color in their circles while supporting (or not opposing) legislation that harms people of color. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr is spot-on in his frustration with "the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

rootusrootus 8y ago

That is so unfair. I wish there was a way we could get over this shit. I have a new team member joining us in a couple weeks and he's black. My intent is to try damn hard to completely ignore that fact, without appearing to be ignoring it, if that makes any sense. Where I live is predominantly white, so he definitely will stand out. As far as I can remember, there is exactly one other black employee on the entire floor. I'm probably just worrying for nothing. We really do have a team of good people and I'm not just saying that.

jaemison 8y ago
Believe it or not, one of the worst things that you can do is try to ignore it. Ask any minority why “I don’t even see race, just people” is so infuriating. By ignoring the issue, you are also effectively minimizing or erasing the other person’s experience as not the majority. Let your coworker come to you as they are. Take them to coffee, get to know them, and ask how you can help them feel welcome and be at their best at work. Sounds like a lot of work and effort on your part, but the burden is on you the majority to earn back the trust broken by lived experience. This is also not guaranteed to work. You’re fighting against a mindset developed over someone’s lifetime that’s akin to an alarm that you might think is noisy and not tuned properly but has become necessary for this person’s survival and psychological safety because they face threats to those things at a frequency and level you never have to see. Racism isn’t the act of acknowledging someone’s otherness, it’s letting that otherness drive your interactions with someone and not giving them the opportunity to talk about who they are as a person. Racism is every time you go to lunch, it’s a barbecue place and you don’t invite your coworker because you don’t want them to think you’re stereotyping but you also don’t want to talk to them so you just go without them anyway without asking your coworker if they want to come because it’s easier. Racism isn’t the act of starting the uncomfortable conversations, it’s not giving those conversations a time and place to happen at all.
- 38sp 8y ago
  > the burden is on you the majority to earn back the trust broken by lived experience. A single person can not be a majority, and claiming someone has a responsibility to treat someone with kid gloves because they are a member of the majority race is pretty extreme. I really have a hard time believing someone actually believes the thoughts expressed in this post. Doing any of this in your workplace is a terrible idea.

rorykoehler 8y ago

>self worth immediately judged at the color of your skin is something that no other race lives with I beg to differ. In Asia being white is a massive advantage. It's literally the reverse of what you describe. It weirds me out tbh. Sorry you have to deal with the opposite.

cooperadymas 8y ago

Honest question, is this a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? You expect to be judged by the color of your skin, so you act constantly in fear of being judged, making your time in the industry "suck" as you put it? Obviously it would be foolish to think that no one out there is prejudiced, or that there are no systematic problems in certain places, but based on what you said here it sounds like you have not so much encountered these situations personally, rather you have lived in fear of encountering them.

aphextron 8y ago
>Honest question, is this a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? You expect to be judged by the color of your skin, so you act constantly in fear of being judged, making your time in the industry "suck" as you put it? It may very well be self-fulfilling. But my point is that this issue doesn't exist for white people. You can live with the fear of impostor syndrome and not feeling qualified enough, etc. But your completely unchangeable physical appearance does not contribute to that. Every shortcoming that could possibly exclude you from any job is within your control to fix and work on, whereas we will always be left with this single unpredictable variable no matter what.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Unless you're a short white person, or god forbid a white woman. White women would love to have even the advantages of a black man (respected or feared instead of marginalized, become president etc)
  - sj3k 8y ago
    ummmmmm what?
  - drharby 8y ago
    I think you are missing the forest for the trees
    - 8y ago

deltron3030 8y ago

You fight against visual stereotypes and hierarchies related to that, which are burned into peoples minds. I don‘t think that it‘s race specific, it happens to everybody in a way. When it comes to computers and tech, people expect nerds, and behaviors associated with that. If you don‘t look like a nerd, people will assume that you joined that profession from a different background, that you didn‘t program as a kid and therefor can‘t match their ideal, or stereotype.

benj111 8y ago

I'm not US based, or in the industry so I don't have any direct experience, but your experience is surprising to hear. From what I understood there was more a problem with sexism than racism in tech. Also from my understanding Hispanics have also been marginalised (thought maybe not to the same extent). Id appreciate your thoughts.

idontpost 8y ago
Racism is fundamental to virtually every social interaction in the US. It's not always virulent or violent, but it is always present.
- umvi 8y ago
  Racism is rampant in virtually every first world country but US's brand of racism gets the most media coverage. Many European countries are extremely racist toward gypsies/romani. When I lived in Italy, the Italians were openly derisive to anyone that looked eastern european, even if they were complete strangers ("careful around those romani down the street, they are all liars and thieves"). Good luck getting a job at an italian-owned business if you are of eastern european decent. Japan is also extremely racist toward non-Japanese people to the point they will only let you live in foreigner-quarantined housing complexes.
- mandevil 8y ago
  Don't think it's just the US. I once worked with an otherwise lovely Swedish software engineer, who was constantly spouting anti-Danish "jokes" and insults. It was disconcerting. I wasn't sure whether to stand up for the Danes, tell him a lie that my mother was Danish, or what. Is anti-Danish racism even a thing?
- wpietri 8y ago
  I'm not sure why this is getting downvoted. Those skeptical should watch this recent lecture from Dr. Robin DiAngelo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ey4jgoxeU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ey4jgoxeU Or they might also read the book the talk was based on: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0807047414 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0807047414

aielojgf 8y ago

would it suck less if blacks were held to the same standards as other races when hiring?

matz1 8y ago

I accepted that life is unfair, the solution to this is what you already said, try to be more powerful, smarter, stronger, 'better' than them, in other words, force them to respect me. That's the only solution. Likewise, I admit I to sometime discriminate or being racist to other people. For these people, same solution, they have to force me to respect them.

hangonhn 8y ago

First, I'm really sorry that things are the way they are for black people. It's simply enormously sad. And it's not just the tech industry. It happens in other fields too. A really good buddy of mine is a top notch surgeon. He did his undergrad, med school, residency, and then fellowship at Ivy Leagues and Stanford. He's black. During his fellowship, one of the surgeons he worked under would always introduce him to other people at the hospital by always emphasizing his credentials. The catch here is that he only did it with my friend and none of the other fellows. My friend was the only black fellow. The surgeon meant well but he felt the need to assure all the patients that the black doctor is just as good if not better than all the other doctors. Little differences like that is what my friend lives with every day. When my friend visited me in Silicon Valley he told me it's not that diverse -- at least not in the way we would want diversity to work. He told me that next time I go out to eat, I should look through the windows of all the nice restaurants I walk by and see who the customers are and who the workers are. My friend is right. There are under and upper classes in SV and it's often clustered by race. I never noticed because I'm Asian and I'm in the group that benefited.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
All true, except the conclusion that it's directly due to race. It can also be socioeconomic class that creates the correlation, which is also correlated to race. Not much difference in the end of course, and still a major societal issue. But a different one.
- hangonhn 8y ago
  I'm not saying it's because of race -- if I wrote it that way then thanks for the correction. It just happen to correlate strongly with race. I don't know the underlying cause is and your hypothesis is close to my own. I mainly wanted to emphasize my own blindness to this trend because I had benefited from it.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    I'm in the same boat. Its easy to just accept folks in roles without thinking about it. E.g. I'm naturally gregarious, will chat up folks in line at the gas station buying a Coke etc. I noticed one day I didn't chat up anybody that didn't look like me. So I started.

mbrumlow 8y ago

I would like to point out this your perspective, and does not mean it actually relefects reality. Your feelings are valid but also can be misplaced at the same time. I think it is a poor way to start the day assuming everybody is going to think the worse is you. That may be something a support group or therapy might help with. I say this comming from a place where I suffered the same issues. And found changing my attitude actually changed how I viewed other people. Please don't take my reply as a attack on you. I simply feel your reply reflects similar views I had held at one point in life. And I found not worrying and not setting expectations on my peers really helped me to feel at home in situations that made me feel much like you describe. On the other hand I can't possibly know your entire story from a small bit you shared.

inZaw2ChlJ 8y ago

Really? I am British white and I have the opposite problem. In my company, they have gone out of their way to promote non-white people and my achievements and accomplishments have been overlooked. I feel like I have to work at least 2x harder and accomplish more than non-white or non-male people to be given any credit, respect, or the promotions I think I deserve. Once, at a company meeting to discuss recruiting, my direct manager thanked the non-white and non-male, and non-heterosexual people for bringing diversity to the company in front of everyone. No one else was thanked or praised for anything there. My point is that we can probably all find something to complain about and it irks me that white people are accused of being racist and undeserving in tech roles. I certainly don't feel like I have any sort of privilege; quite the opposite. I suspect this will be downvoted which is proof of my point.

WAthrowaway 8y ago
It's almost as if you are missing the larger point being made and taking your own experience to be the sum total extent of the entire issue.
pathseeker 8y ago
This is the issue that pro "diversity program" people need to come to terms with. If these programs end up causing reverse discrimination, you just end up punishing majority members unjustly. Knowing that black people have it harder on average is not consoling to someone who got passed over because they didn't fulfill enough diversity check-boxes as another candidate.
erikpukinskis 8y ago
There’s only two possibilities. Either white people are undeserving of tech roles... Or white people are superior to black people. You have to pick one or the other. I don’t see a third way to explain an employment gap.

Diederich 8y ago

If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions at the bottom. This is from what is said to be the post in question, cached here: https://outline.com/RVSLKq https://outline.com/RVSLKq "On a personal note, at least two or three times a day, every day, a colleague at MPK [Facebook headquarters in Menlo Park] will look directly at me and tap or hold their wallet or shove their hands down their pocket to clutch it tightly until I pass. The frequency is even higher when walking through Classic campus or Building 20. To feel like an oddity at your own place of employment because of the color of your skin while passing posters reminding you to be your authentic self feels in itself inauthentic." So I'm a pretty typical privileged white guy working for Facebook at MPK. I care about diversity, and more importantly, I acknowledge these kinds of problem, even without knowing most of the details. This just blows me away: "...a colleague ... will look directly at me and tap or hold their wallet or shove their hands down their pocket to clutch it tightly until I pass..." So first, I'll just ask: does this mirror your experience? Can you talk more about that? What can I do to help my peers not be physically afraid of black people?? Thanks for your attention.