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The text of the blog post is very confusing at best. I consistently got the feeling we have no idea how to do messaging, and we are throwing many things to see

The text of the blog post is very confusing at best. I consistently got the feeling we have no idea how to do messaging, and we are throwing many things to see which one sticks. In other words, the blog post felt like it was a post about telling how we have no idea what we are doing using some thousand words. Messages app is very primitive. I like hangouts way more. I can hop from text message to video chat with family with a single click. My project fi integrates nicely too, and to me this is a pretty good value prop. Disclaimer, google employee in an unrelated product.

killjoywashere 8y ago
> blog post is very confusing at best Yeah, there's clarity at the end, but there could have been a cartoon in 4 frames: Frame 1: icons of Allo, Duo, Hangouts, Messaging Frame 2: Hangouts splits into Meet and Chat (5 things) Frame 3: Duo, Messaging, Meet annd Chat arranged in a 2x2 grid of (messaging, phone/video) x (consumer, business), with Allo still hanging above Frame 4: Allo getting squeezed into Messaging.
- npunt 8y ago
  You're onto something. This should be a chart though, and encompass the whole scope of Google's attempts at messaging over the years. Plot out all the bundling (Hangouts & G+) and unbundling (Allo's features -> Messages) like xkcd's movie narrative charts: https://xkcd.com/657/ https://xkcd.com/657/ At any given moment in time, Google's messaging attempts look silly and confusing, but imagine seeing it over time - it'd look downright insane.
  - maccam94 8y ago
    Don't forget Talk and Voice
  - csours 8y ago
    https://robots.thoughtbot.com/analyzing-minards-visualization-of-napoleons-1812-march https://robots.thoughtbot.com/analyzing-minards-visualizatio... Based on one of the most famous visualizations of all times - Napoleon's 1812 invasion of russia
axaxs 8y ago
Same. I adore hangouts, ugly and 'outdated' as it is. With Fi/Voice, it integrates perfectly as to call or text from any internet device. And who cares about wifi calling or volte support when with hangouts, everything is over data always and more reliable. Killing it is a mistake. It's the only Google product I'd gladly pay a monthly fee to use...
- zbentley 8y ago
  > I adore hangouts, ugly and 'outdated' as it is How is hangouts ugly or outdated? I've heard this from several people and I don't know to what y'all are referring. I have no particular love or hate for hangouts, I'm just curious.
  - axaxs 8y ago
    Just from its looks, mainly on mobile. It's got a large, dull green banner that just says 'Hangouts'. I'm no UI expert, but it just looks outdated...
    - tehlike 8y ago
      try messages, looks way more outdated.
kyrra 8y ago
(Googler also, also unrelated product) I felt like Allo was actually a really great product. Comparing it's UX and features to other messaging apps out there, I felt like it was one of the most polished (iMessage or FB Messenger being similar). From a product strategy POV, it felt like a product targeting Asia (specifically India, as it launched with Indian themed sticker packs), at least at launch, but that changed over time. Also, it's important to distinguish Allo from Hangouts from the account perspective. Allo is phone # tied, like WhatsApp/Telegram. So definitely trying to go after a different market segment. It just failed. Duo continues to be awesome. Being a FaceTime competitor that is cross-platform is great. No account needed, just simply start a video chat from your address book (or from the App). Hangouts is... something special. There are clearly reasons things happened the way they did. But I think it's good to see that Hangouts Chat/Meet will be open to consumers eventually.
- killjoywashere 8y ago
  > Hangouts is... something special. Would you, please, elaborate?
  - cjtrowbridge 8y ago
    Hangouts integrates your Google Voice and Google Fi texts right into web pages like GMail, contacts, etc. And this works even if your phone is off, lost, broken, or has no service. Hangouts also works on any device with an internet connection if you log in. You can text and call from your number on literally any device just by signing into hangouts. None of the multitude of other redundant Google messaging products does any of this. Even their official replacement "messages" only works if your phone is on and has service. You don't even need a phone to call and text from a laptop through GMail from your phone number. That functionality will be lost.
    - millstone 8y ago
      This makes no sense to me - why not integrate texts into Google Sheets or Google Maps? This feels like pushing unrelated projects to boost engagement. iMessage does not invade my email. Didn't Google get badly burned integrating chat into gmail (Google buzz)?
Eridrus 8y ago
What you see as throwing shit at the wall, looks like testing market hypothesis to me. Google isn't going to win the messaging space by building a kitchen sink messaging app that is compatible with everything, so they need to look for opportunities in the market that they can capitalize on. Particularly since Google has regulators breathing down their neck, and carriers unwilling to allow an iMessage equivalent on Android.
- tehlike 8y ago
  Google has been testing the market since gchat. Doesnt mean it is working out.
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    It seems like Duo is working out. It has more than 500m installs, and isn't installed by default, so it's numbers aren't padded the same way Hangouts' are. Allo, despite being shut down got to about the same size as Signal.
    - tehlike 8y ago
      Is hangouts installed by default (i don't know), seem to have a billion installs, which looked a bit too high for both default-install, and non-default install.
      - keerthiko 8y ago
        It's installed by default on most Android devices, and a large portion of Asia's handset market (India) is dominated by Android, but messaging in India is dominated by Whatsapp. So almost-a-billion is bloated download numbers of Indian smartphones coming with hangouts installed, but none of them using it.
    - tehlike 8y ago
      Signal is rather niche, so is telegram.
    - 8y ago
scotchio 8y ago
Hopping from text to video in a single click is cool... But the #1 thing that stops me from even considering buying an Android device is "it's not iMessage". iMessage doesn't have single click to video, but it's also automatic. No hassle at all and I can blue bubble send perfection to any other iPhone-r. It's also synced to all my devices flawlessly. I think that's what is really missing. People don't mind opening another app to place call / facetime / hangout video. They want simple, clear phone messaging that isn't an "app"
- bane 8y ago
  That's basically Hangouts. I sms more from my computer than my phone but it's all synced everywhere. I'm even smsing with a co-worker from my tablet right now.
  - JayNitram 8y ago
    Agreed, and it was even better before they reduced a lot of the functionality for non Fi users.
    - ryan_j_naughton 8y ago
      What functionality did they reduce for non-fi users?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - pookeh 8y ago
    iMessages integrates really well with os x...
    - grogenaut 8y ago
      os x, ios, and nothing else. That's the thing I like about gchat, it works everywhere.
baxtr 8y ago
Somehow, I wonder if google is “just” very strong at analyzing vast amounts of data, but weak on core product development. Do they ask questions like who is this for, who will use this, for what purpose, how will they use it etc?
- tlow 8y ago
  It definitely seems Google is bad at Product Design, but certainly they do not lack for the best talent, so is the problem based upon the structure of the org, stakeholders, something else, both, neither?
  - tehlike 8y ago
    It's lack of vision. There are not many in the company who strives for the best product, or have the vision to make a change. As the company got larger, people started caring for more about career and less about great products. People who solve for some director's problem got promoted over the ones who truly deserved it. Unfortunately, some of the smartest people i know now also looks down on google. This one kid that was an intern for me at MIT (whom i think was way smarter than i am) didn't even bother interviewing with google, he went to spacex.
    - tempestn 8y ago
      It really seems like the company must be lacking top-down leadership. It almost seems cliché to bring up Steve Jobs here, but the contrast is striking. One could argue he took things too far the other way: There was one iPhone. It was the perfect size. Hell, there was one mouse button. It was the correct number of buttons. For everyone. But still, it's laughable to imagine this kind of fractured insanity happening at Apple, and for the most part that was to their benefit.
      - matwood 8y ago
        People underestimate the importance of leadership all the time. Google is a company built around being the smartest person in the room, but where are the leaders? A good leader is not necessarily the smartest (in a Google sense) person in the room. How does that person get put in a leadership position in a company like Google? You mention Jobs. Was he smarter than Woz or a better engineer? No, but he was a much better leader. He inspired people to work, and relentlessly drove his vision. Obviously he didn't always make the right call, but I think we can say with confidence he would not have let this messaging mess drag on for close to 10 years now.
jhanschoo 8y ago
This seems to me the start of what happened to GMail. As for Hangouts, it seems that this announcement suggests that Hangouts is moving to become a primarily G Suite brand. Messaging: you have what you have now, Messages as a vanilla messaging app Allo and Duo as flavored products focusing on particular features for messaging. Email: GMail as vanilla Inbox as a GTD-flavored that is having its most used features is being folded back into GMail.
bane 8y ago
I honestly have no idea what this means for fi. We were made to move over to Hangouts so we could sms from Gmail or something and now it seems to be going away?
- tehlike 8y ago
  Bummer, isn't it? That was my favorite feature to be honest. I think there's a lack of connection between Fi and google's other chat products (or even just hangouts and fi) in terms of roadmaps and so on. Fi graduated, now hangouts going away seems a bit... reverse.
arwineap 8y ago
Project fi actually DEPENDS on hangouts. At some point in the last year, I wanted to jump into the "new chat ecosystem" and so I uninstalled hangouts to break bad habits. The entire phone becomes unable to connect to any network. I love hangouts, and I wish RCS could just roll into it; but how did project fi end up so integrated?
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  > Project fi actually DEPENDS on hangouts. No, it doesn't. In the beginning they strongly suggested that you use Hangouts for SMS on Fi, but they don't require it. I just use Messages on Fi.
  - arwineap 8y ago
    Have you uninstalled hangouts, or are you just not using it?
    - JoshTriplett 8y ago
      Originally I had it uninstalled. I recently reinstalled it to use for a completely separate Google Voice account, but before that I had it uninstalled and I exclusively used Messages.
barrkel 8y ago
Messages mixes up SMS with chat, exactly what I don't want. SMS messages are usually used for couriers notifying about delivery, and spam. I use an SMS-only app on Android to make sure things don't get mixed up. I don't need SMS junk in my chats.

killjoywashere 8y ago

> blog post is very confusing at best Yeah, there's clarity at the end, but there could have been a cartoon in 4 frames: Frame 1: icons of Allo, Duo, Hangouts, Messaging Frame 2: Hangouts splits into Meet and Chat (5 things) Frame 3: Duo, Messaging, Meet annd Chat arranged in a 2x2 grid of (messaging, phone/video) x (consumer, business), with Allo still hanging above Frame 4: Allo getting squeezed into Messaging.

npunt 8y ago
You're onto something. This should be a chart though, and encompass the whole scope of Google's attempts at messaging over the years. Plot out all the bundling (Hangouts & G+) and unbundling (Allo's features -> Messages) like xkcd's movie narrative charts: https://xkcd.com/657/ https://xkcd.com/657/ At any given moment in time, Google's messaging attempts look silly and confusing, but imagine seeing it over time - it'd look downright insane.
- maccam94 8y ago
  Don't forget Talk and Voice
- csours 8y ago
  https://robots.thoughtbot.com/analyzing-minards-visualization-of-napoleons-1812-march https://robots.thoughtbot.com/analyzing-minards-visualizatio... Based on one of the most famous visualizations of all times - Napoleon's 1812 invasion of russia

axaxs 8y ago

Same. I adore hangouts, ugly and 'outdated' as it is. With Fi/Voice, it integrates perfectly as to call or text from any internet device. And who cares about wifi calling or volte support when with hangouts, everything is over data always and more reliable. Killing it is a mistake. It's the only Google product I'd gladly pay a monthly fee to use...

zbentley 8y ago
> I adore hangouts, ugly and 'outdated' as it is How is hangouts ugly or outdated? I've heard this from several people and I don't know to what y'all are referring. I have no particular love or hate for hangouts, I'm just curious.
- axaxs 8y ago
  Just from its looks, mainly on mobile. It's got a large, dull green banner that just says 'Hangouts'. I'm no UI expert, but it just looks outdated...
  - tehlike 8y ago
    try messages, looks way more outdated.

kyrra 8y ago

(Googler also, also unrelated product) I felt like Allo was actually a really great product. Comparing it's UX and features to other messaging apps out there, I felt like it was one of the most polished (iMessage or FB Messenger being similar). From a product strategy POV, it felt like a product targeting Asia (specifically India, as it launched with Indian themed sticker packs), at least at launch, but that changed over time. Also, it's important to distinguish Allo from Hangouts from the account perspective. Allo is phone # tied, like WhatsApp/Telegram. So definitely trying to go after a different market segment. It just failed. Duo continues to be awesome. Being a FaceTime competitor that is cross-platform is great. No account needed, just simply start a video chat from your address book (or from the App). Hangouts is... something special. There are clearly reasons things happened the way they did. But I think it's good to see that Hangouts Chat/Meet will be open to consumers eventually.

killjoywashere 8y ago
> Hangouts is... something special. Would you, please, elaborate?
- cjtrowbridge 8y ago
  Hangouts integrates your Google Voice and Google Fi texts right into web pages like GMail, contacts, etc. And this works even if your phone is off, lost, broken, or has no service. Hangouts also works on any device with an internet connection if you log in. You can text and call from your number on literally any device just by signing into hangouts. None of the multitude of other redundant Google messaging products does any of this. Even their official replacement "messages" only works if your phone is on and has service. You don't even need a phone to call and text from a laptop through GMail from your phone number. That functionality will be lost.
  - millstone 8y ago
    This makes no sense to me - why not integrate texts into Google Sheets or Google Maps? This feels like pushing unrelated projects to boost engagement. iMessage does not invade my email. Didn't Google get badly burned integrating chat into gmail (Google buzz)?

Eridrus 8y ago

What you see as throwing shit at the wall, looks like testing market hypothesis to me. Google isn't going to win the messaging space by building a kitchen sink messaging app that is compatible with everything, so they need to look for opportunities in the market that they can capitalize on. Particularly since Google has regulators breathing down their neck, and carriers unwilling to allow an iMessage equivalent on Android.

tehlike 8y ago
Google has been testing the market since gchat. Doesnt mean it is working out.
- Eridrus 8y ago
  It seems like Duo is working out. It has more than 500m installs, and isn't installed by default, so it's numbers aren't padded the same way Hangouts' are. Allo, despite being shut down got to about the same size as Signal.
  - tehlike 8y ago
    Is hangouts installed by default (i don't know), seem to have a billion installs, which looked a bit too high for both default-install, and non-default install.
    - keerthiko 8y ago
      It's installed by default on most Android devices, and a large portion of Asia's handset market (India) is dominated by Android, but messaging in India is dominated by Whatsapp. So almost-a-billion is bloated download numbers of Indian smartphones coming with hangouts installed, but none of them using it.
  - tehlike 8y ago
    Signal is rather niche, so is telegram.
  - 8y ago

scotchio 8y ago

Hopping from text to video in a single click is cool... But the #1 thing that stops me from even considering buying an Android device is "it's not iMessage". iMessage doesn't have single click to video, but it's also automatic. No hassle at all and I can blue bubble send perfection to any other iPhone-r. It's also synced to all my devices flawlessly. I think that's what is really missing. People don't mind opening another app to place call / facetime / hangout video. They want simple, clear phone messaging that isn't an "app"

bane 8y ago
That's basically Hangouts. I sms more from my computer than my phone but it's all synced everywhere. I'm even smsing with a co-worker from my tablet right now.
- JayNitram 8y ago
  Agreed, and it was even better before they reduced a lot of the functionality for non Fi users.
  - ryan_j_naughton 8y ago
    What functionality did they reduce for non-fi users?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- pookeh 8y ago
  iMessages integrates really well with os x...
  - grogenaut 8y ago
    os x, ios, and nothing else. That's the thing I like about gchat, it works everywhere.

baxtr 8y ago

Somehow, I wonder if google is “just” very strong at analyzing vast amounts of data, but weak on core product development. Do they ask questions like who is this for, who will use this, for what purpose, how will they use it etc?

tlow 8y ago
It definitely seems Google is bad at Product Design, but certainly they do not lack for the best talent, so is the problem based upon the structure of the org, stakeholders, something else, both, neither?
- tehlike 8y ago
  It's lack of vision. There are not many in the company who strives for the best product, or have the vision to make a change. As the company got larger, people started caring for more about career and less about great products. People who solve for some director's problem got promoted over the ones who truly deserved it. Unfortunately, some of the smartest people i know now also looks down on google. This one kid that was an intern for me at MIT (whom i think was way smarter than i am) didn't even bother interviewing with google, he went to spacex.
  - tempestn 8y ago
    It really seems like the company must be lacking top-down leadership. It almost seems cliché to bring up Steve Jobs here, but the contrast is striking. One could argue he took things too far the other way: There was one iPhone. It was the perfect size. Hell, there was one mouse button. It was the correct number of buttons. For everyone. But still, it's laughable to imagine this kind of fractured insanity happening at Apple, and for the most part that was to their benefit.
    - matwood 8y ago
      People underestimate the importance of leadership all the time. Google is a company built around being the smartest person in the room, but where are the leaders? A good leader is not necessarily the smartest (in a Google sense) person in the room. How does that person get put in a leadership position in a company like Google? You mention Jobs. Was he smarter than Woz or a better engineer? No, but he was a much better leader. He inspired people to work, and relentlessly drove his vision. Obviously he didn't always make the right call, but I think we can say with confidence he would not have let this messaging mess drag on for close to 10 years now.

jhanschoo 8y ago

This seems to me the start of what happened to GMail. As for Hangouts, it seems that this announcement suggests that Hangouts is moving to become a primarily G Suite brand. Messaging: you have what you have now, Messages as a vanilla messaging app Allo and Duo as flavored products focusing on particular features for messaging. Email: GMail as vanilla Inbox as a GTD-flavored that is having its most used features is being folded back into GMail.

bane 8y ago

I honestly have no idea what this means for fi. We were made to move over to Hangouts so we could sms from Gmail or something and now it seems to be going away?

tehlike 8y ago
Bummer, isn't it? That was my favorite feature to be honest. I think there's a lack of connection between Fi and google's other chat products (or even just hangouts and fi) in terms of roadmaps and so on. Fi graduated, now hangouts going away seems a bit... reverse.

arwineap 8y ago

Project fi actually DEPENDS on hangouts. At some point in the last year, I wanted to jump into the "new chat ecosystem" and so I uninstalled hangouts to break bad habits. The entire phone becomes unable to connect to any network. I love hangouts, and I wish RCS could just roll into it; but how did project fi end up so integrated?

JoshTriplett 8y ago
> Project fi actually DEPENDS on hangouts. No, it doesn't. In the beginning they strongly suggested that you use Hangouts for SMS on Fi, but they don't require it. I just use Messages on Fi.
- arwineap 8y ago
  Have you uninstalled hangouts, or are you just not using it?
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    Originally I had it uninstalled. I recently reinstalled it to use for a completely separate Google Voice account, but before that I had it uninstalled and I exclusively used Messages.

barrkel 8y ago

Messages mixes up SMS with chat, exactly what I don't want. SMS messages are usually used for couriers notifying about delivery, and spam. I use an SMS-only app on Android to make sure things don't get mixed up. I don't need SMS junk in my chats.