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The many concerns in this thread (and their upvotes) about price (350$) are one of the best examples of the risks of gender imbalance in venture funding I've ye

• 1123581321 8y ago
  I thought you might be right, so I did some polling on this product and got feedback like: * “Bergner’s and Macy’s already can get a good fit. They have 15 cup sizes most people don’t know about” * “I’d pay $150 for a custom fit if my size weren’t fluctuating” * “If I have to travel, I can already get a really good bra in Paris, NY or London that look better” * “Seems like it could be successful if enough women who don’t know their options hear about it” These are aggregates of the most commonly expressed opinions. It seems like price might be a valid concern of women as well as men. I am sure that with enough press, this founder can succeed, but I don’t think I’d necessarily be biased if I thought it wasn’t competitive or disruptive enough. The qualities and connections of the founding team matter more than anything when the problem is that existing solutions aren’t popular enough to meet demand.
  • pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    No, no, no, you've got it all wrong it's impossible for men to understand, o-kay! /s
  • fipple 8y ago
    LOL I hope your representative American woman isn’t one familiar with the shopping in London, Paris, and NY.
    • sokoloff 8y ago
      Even if they are, maybe especially if they are, that only reinforces the point that $350ea might be a catastrophically too high price.
      • fipple 8y ago
        It all depends on how many you want to sell. You can certainly sell n $350 bras. https://darkestfox.com/products/claire-velvet-set?variant=41729249869&utm_campaign=gs-2018-08-16&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6JjgBRDbARIsANfu58EtVzMNIF0rc9tq0mg8Hv5XCnltpwrtVWT-7wBQLksyi5b33KSOf08aAjQzEALw_wcB https://darkestfox.com/products/claire-velvet-set?variant=41...
• dboreham 8y ago
  I'm told that regular bras (from a dept store, decent brand) run $100 or so as it is.
  • JimboOmega 8y ago
    Not really. An unadorned Calvin Klein Bra from Macy's will be $30ish. Victoria Secret might be $50-$80. Once you get to more "lingerie" type brands the price increases fast. There's also the reality that a lot of women fall out of traditional sizes for any number of reasons and in that case, the options are more limited and expensive.
    • kaybe 8y ago
      You'd wish you could choose a design by how much you like it, but that's not how that works. You basically try one every single thing in the shop and then buy the 1 or 2 that fit, no matter the price (if you can).
      • JimboOmega 8y ago
        Yup. Pretty much. Sometimes you WANT one to fit so much that you buy it anyway... I'll never quite understand why, despite the fact that women's bodies vary more, women's clothing is tolerates any variation way less than men's.
    • amyjess 8y ago
      Prices also spike like crazy if you have a non-traditional cup size. I'm a 44C. Most stores don't carry that. On extremely rare occasion, if I check every single bra that's at my local Walmart, I might find one, and that's only after checking every week for a month. The last time a bra broke, I decided enough was enough, ditched mainstream stores, and went to Torrid. I was able to buy a few bras in my size, and they've lasted longer than the crap I used to buy from Walmart, but they weren't cheap. I don't remember exactly how much they cost, but it was painful. You pay for rarity.
  • girvo 8y ago
    That’s correct, at least here in Australia you’ll spend more if your breasts are even remotely unique and you are aiming for correct support and comfort.
• jimmy1 8y ago
  You can make a ton of money by sitting in a bar and listening to a group of women express their grievances to each other, and the extents they would be willing to go to remedy said grievances and then solving that problem -- uncomfortable bras are one of those frequent topics. Personally for my working wife and her group of nursing mother friends, they would pay almost anything for a convenient breast pump without all the hoses and tubes (just in case anyone is listening out there ;) )
  • etrautmann 8y ago
    That’s a good idea. Also - taking pitches from female founders seriously, and supporting diversity of perspectives within a design and engineering team so this knowledge is already there.
  • josephv 8y ago
    https://www.willowpump.com/ https://www.willowpump.com/ These things seem to be fairly new. Not available afaik 4 years ago when my we needed one. I've heard good reviews of the style, but don't know anything about specific brands.
  • Pica_soO 8y ago
    A customer that is not either a billionaire or a college student? Such a thing exists?
  • senderista 8y ago
    My wife swears by these: https://www.haakaa.co.nz/products/silicone-breast-pump https://www.haakaa.co.nz/products/silicone-breast-pump
• LMYahooTFY 8y ago
  Can you elaborate on why this indicates gender imbalance in VC funding? I'm a bit skeptical of your assertion that anyone regardless of income would see this as a rational price point, when economic theories seem to indicate that our restrictions determine our preferences.
  • DelaneyM 8y ago
    I think it's been said elsewhere, but it's the difference between something being seen as premium (Jura coffee maker or 15" MacBook) vs ludicrous (Juicero). This is decidedly the former. For top-heavy women, especially the majority who are a bit asymmetric, a perfectly fitting bra is an impossible dream.
  • Spivak 8y ago
    Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean it isn't priced correctly. Just because I can't afford a yaht doesn't mean they're too expensive. A $350 for an esthetily pleasing comfortable sturdy bra is a no brainier purchase when it's such a QoL improvement, you wear it everyday, and the alternative is a string of cheap bras that won't be that much cheaper in the long run and fit/feel worse. Just because cheap bras come in lots of sizes doesn't mean one of them will actually work for you.
    • nrdgrl 8y ago
      > A $350 for an esthetily pleasing comfortable sturdy bra is a no brainier purchase when it's such a QoL improvement, you wear it everyday, and the alternative is a string of cheap bras that won't be that much cheaper in the long run and fit/feel worse. Yes. You absolutely hit the nail on the head. I would _happily_ pay this much for a very comfortable bra, and it's reasonable given the quality of bras in the $100-200 range (I've owned several, although I got them at 50-75% off). That said I'll probably never be able to afford a $350 bra again in my life.
      • notyourday 8y ago
        If you were buying $100-$200 bras at 50% discount then you were not buying $200 bras - you were buying $50-$100 bras. If a brand is refusing to sell $350 bra at 50% off, then it is a $350 bra. Otherwise $350 is MSRP aka the wishing price. If they do 50% off sales then it is a $175 bra. $175 makes it a premium product but not a boutique level premium. Maybe there's a market for $175 bras -- VS tried it in 2005-2007 in some markets but they did not quite sell it was dropped in 2008. Hermes does not do sales, which is why a a Kelly 22 is $7,200 while LV Speedy is $800 and not $1,400 (Hermes does not do sales and LV does), so Hermes talks about number of units of a kind they ship while LV talks about average revenue per unit of a kind shipped. P.S. VCs are very bad at funding apparel manufacturers. They pick the ones that they think should work which tend not to be the ones that actually work.
• DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  > I suspect pretty much any woman in North America, regardless of ability to afford it, would see that as a totally rational price point. That rationale seems a bit simplistic to me. I suspect that for many women in North America, the choice of spending $350 on a bra, or $100 on a bra + paying some bill on time, is a no-brainer.
  • doppel 8y ago
    A Tesla is much more expensive than a Prius, but I think the Tesla is set at a rational price point, even if I could never afford it. Being able to afford an item does not necessarily correlate with whether you think it's priced fairly or not.
  • cimmanom 8y ago
    I think GP's point is that if a venture capitalist was paying for 90% of the actual cost (as with Uber) in order to grab market share, the price would be much more within reach.
  • nullorundefined 8y ago
    > a no-brainer you know how many people are poor, right?
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      Walmart doesn't fill shelves with $10-$20 bras because there's no market for them.
• microcolonel 8y ago
  > The many concerns in this thread (and their upvotes) about price (350$) are one of the best examples of the risks of gender imbalance in venture funding I've yet seen. Maybe people on HN are just not aware what something approaching this good costs, and unwilling (let's say for ideological reasons) to consider why it costs as much as it does. I doubt many VCs would be too stupid to Google a bit about what women say about bra fit (or, heck, listen to a woman who isn't a stranger), and how much they currently pay for good fit; If I had a nickel for every time a woman complained about bra fit around me, I'd have at least thirty cents. I think an interesting next step would be some sort of home scanning kit (or just an app, though this would have a hard time with dark skin, crappy lighting, or a combination of both), not sure how hard it would be to go from a static scan of breast geometry to a fit (since they don't exactly stay that way when they're tied up!). TL;DR, I think these folks just don't know how pricing works.
• devereaux 8y ago
  Sorry, no. I don't like being constricted. I do not know why I would pay for the privilege of being constricted but hurting less! There is a lot of research on how bras are useless, and some people even wonder if by limiting lymphatic drainage bras may help promoting cancer. I wear a sport bra when I am in a gym, and a regular off the shelf bra if I am going in a social encounter where I fear my "freedom" would be used again me to judge my character. But that's about it. Our moms didn't burn their bras in the 50s so we could have the privilege to spent $350 on them in the future.
  • amyjess 8y ago
    When I'm at home, I have to hold my boobs when I walk up or down my stairs or the jiggling will hurt a lot. I'm not going outside without a bra. And I do like being constricted. Wearing a well-fitting bra feels like being hugged all the time, and it feels great. Also, > Our moms didn't burn their bras in the 50s so we could have the privilege to spent $350 on them in the future. A) Bra-burning was a myth. It never happened. B) Second-wave feminism has been considered harmful for quite some time now. It's incredibly toxic due to being inextricably linked with racism, transphobia, femmephobia, kinkshaming, and sex-negativity. The vast majority of feminists have moved on to third-wave feminism, which doesn't have these problems.
    • thecanman 8y ago
      Third-wave comes with their own set of problems, as an aside. They definitely have not moved away from kinkshaming and sex-negativity.
      • Gruselbauer 8y ago
        Some have, some haven't, as far as my reading goes. There's definitely a broader spectrum of opinions and that alone seems like a good development to me.
        • dragonwriter 8y ago
          > Some have, some haven't, as far as my reading goes That was also true of second- (and even first-)wave feminism, too. > There's definitely a broader spectrum of opinions and that alone seems like a good development to me Third- (and even fourth-)wave feminism may have some different and new ideas and means of presenting them, but much of the core diversity of approaches on feminism has really been around since the so-called “first-wave” in the split between what might (oversimplifying a multiaxis variation into a dichotomy based on some correlations among the axes) be seen as conservative/Christian/bourgeois/virtue-oriented feminism on one side and revolutionary/materialist/proletarian/egalitarian feminism on the other.
• billfruit 8y ago
  Why is that a rational price point, since bra prices seems to be in the 5$ to 10$ range for brands like Jockey and Enamor, in India.
  • kaybe 8y ago
    Because you only really need one if your size doesn't fluctuate. Most women I know have like 5, and none of them fit properly and are a constant annoyance, and they mostly wear one of them anyway. If that one really fits? Gamechanger for many. You can wear it 2-3 years and then the elastics start to wear out. (Wash the thing by hand, and it'll be dry the next day. As any woman can tell you, we do that less often than we should though.) Compare it to glasses, or maybe shoes - people easily put down that much, even though they could buy cheaper.
    • aidenn0 8y ago
      "Only need one" is a slight exaggeration; you might want a full cup for every day wear, but need a demi for certain necklines and a strapless for certain dresses. That's 3 bras already just for styles that don't involve people seeing your bra (at which point a nude-colored bra doesn't cut it anymore).
      • setr 8y ago
        Presumably if you’re not wealthy enough to afford all 3, then a full cup will resolve 90% of your needs, and you can fallback to cheaper bras for the uncommon case (which is a significant improvement over what is the apparent norm; 100% of the time your bra is uncomfortable reduced to 10%, for $350) And ofc if you’re often wearing non-“everyday” outfits.. you’re probably spending quite a bit on clothing anyways, and can probably afford 2-3 at the $350 price range
  • Bangbangles 8y ago
    Because jockey and enamor suck. So does loveable. Zivame is the only Indian brand that produces good Quality bras in non matrix sizes in India and they too are out of stock on my size in 95% of their collection.
• gadders 8y ago
  My wife has paid ~£90 in the UK several times to get a bra from Rigby and Peller (https://www.rigbyandpeller.com/ https://www.rigbyandpeller.com/) I guess paying this amount would be a function of a) how much pain/inconvenience current bras give you and b) how long they last. And it's not much different in price than a fancy pair of shoes....
• cooperadymas 8y ago
  Am I misunderstanding, are are you actually positing that nearly any American woman would think $350 is a rational price point for a bra? Because that would be one of the best examples of the risk of wealth imbalance in our country that I've yet seen.
  • Holybeds 8y ago
    I wonder the same thing. I'm not sure I agree with your second paragraph though. Could also just be an example of the risks with stupidity and ignorance.
  • Spooky23 8y ago
    If they are driving a $60k car, yes. Many women have hard to fit bras. My wife probably spends 2-3 hours per bra in acquisition time as inventory of odd sizes are tight and size fit varies dramatically. The cost would need to come down for her, but there’s definitely a market need.
    • WhompingWindows 8y ago
      "Pretty much any woman" does not drive a $60k car. $60k cars are for the wealthiest of the wealthy. The rest of us drive beaters or a slightly used car in the 5-20k range.
      • Skunkleton 8y ago
        I mean, it's one banana, Michael... What could it cost? Ten dollars?
      • dragonwriter 8y ago
        > "Pretty much any woman" does not drive a $60k car. Yes, and the claim wasn't that any woman could afford a $350 bra but that they would see the price point as rational independent of whether they could afford it. > 60k cars are for the wealthiest of the wealthy. No, $200k+ cars are for the wealhiest of the wealthy. $60k cars are more targeting the modestly wealthy rather than the wealthiest of the wealthy.
• Twirrim 8y ago
  > The many concerns in this thread (and their upvotes) about price (350$) are one of the best examples of the risks of gender imbalance in venture funding I've yet seen. In a country where 62% of Americans don't even have $1000 in savings, and 21% of Americans don't even have bank accounts? $350 is a super niche price for a bra.
  • DelaneyM 8y ago
    It is definitely a premium price for a premium product, and absolutely out of reach of many. But that's the case for a great many custom and/or early adopter products. It's not crazy. I regularly spend 80$+ for bras I don't like, and if I found one which worked with my wardrobe and truly fit comfortably, 350$ would not be a luxury purchase.
    • kaybe 8y ago
      From the comments here I have the feeling that most guys don't understand the pain and point at all, even when we tell them again and again.
      • ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        I know this might seem crazy, but some of us actually know women and can just ask them. My wife thinks $350 is insane for a bra. I have no doubt that you might gladly pay that, but it’s bizarre that you feel entitled to speak for half the global population.
        • kaybe 8y ago
          That was not the point. edit: The point was that many of the people in the thread don't seem to understand the magnitude and pervasiveness of the problem. What people are prepared to do and pay to alleviate it is another matter entirely, but accordingly it is probably not well estimated if the issue is not well recognized.
          • 8y ago
• nyghtly 8y ago
  Cost in beta according to their website is actually lower, at $175. I imagine the end goal is to get cheaper as the product and process is improved--i.e. the Tesla model. [1] https://bratheory.com/ https://bratheory.com/
• oh_sigh 8y ago
  > I suspect pretty much any woman in North America, regardless of ability to afford it, would see that as a totally rational price point. I suspect you are completely out of touch with pretty much any woman in North America, besides for the <1% of women who can afford a trip to NYC for a bra fitting expedition.
  • posterboy 8y ago
    The quoted statement is a conundrum, but there's hardly any other way to judge it but as a way of saying objectively "invaluable".
    • oh_sigh 8y ago
      But it's obviously not invaluable, because women aren't skipping their car payments, or working extra shifts, in order to buy a $350 bra. In fact, as I understand it, most women aren't even taking the time to inform themselves about what a good fitting bra feels like(which is free), let alone getting ready to plunk down hundreds of dollars for one.
      • posterboy 8y ago
        If you compare invaluable to invaluable, your result must be false, likewise if you take statements too literal as far as every woman was concerned.
• ChuckMcM 8y ago
  Something that wasn't clear to me, its $550 for one bra, but what does the second one cost? How about the next 10? My father-in-law went to Italy and had some custom shoes made. It cost him a bit over $3,000 USD (air fare included). However, he could order a new pair of shoes (in any color of the available leathers) for $250 and they fit wonderfully every time. For his feet (size 13 and one slightly narrower than the other) it was an extravagance that really removed a lot of pain and agitation from his life. He was the first person I had met who had a need like this that was so far from the "standard" offerings that shoe shopping was a scourge.
  • kian 8y ago
    Where did he get them done?
    • ChuckMcM 8y ago
      A place in Milan, he had read about the maker in one of his magazines. Sorry I don't have any more than that, it wasn't something I felt I was ever going to spend money on so I didn't pay much attention to the details. What stuck out was that it was initially expensive and then you could get additional shoes for a lot less.
      • Balgair 8y ago
        I'll echo the inquiry. I'm very much in this market and willing to pay these prices for shoes like this. If you can wrangle the name, I would also be very thankful.
      • bane 8y ago
        There are a couple interesting shoe companies out there. Mephisto for example offers lifetime warranty on their shoes so if they become damaged or start to fail you can ship them in and they'll be repaired or replaced for free (or at least it used to be the case). Their shoes are otherwise fairly expensive compared to competitors, but that made up for the price since you'd basically have new shoes forever.
• draw_down 8y ago
  I can't see that it's either a) better than other custom-fit options (given that the founder was learning from people who do this), or b) cheaper for the same quality. Maybe it's b and I missed that, but in any case they didn't invent custom-fitting bras so I feel like it needs to be either one of those to work.
• timdellinger 8y ago
  $350 for a gamble on a bra that you may or may not like, that might end up in the back of a drawer forever?
  • kaybe 8y ago
    Given that people came back several time for fitting, they seem to fix any pain points for you, so this shouldn't happen.
• foolsgold 8y ago
  You should go. The more people who can afford such a luxury should take advantage, because as their business scales up the price will come down, making it available to more women.