36 ms·
What we learned from 3 years of bra engineering, and what's next
- hsnewman 8y agoAll I comment is: https://youtu.be/AS8nXc3X-6k https://youtu.be/AS8nXc3X-6k
- pp19dd 8y ago$350. Per.
- jacobush 8y agoThis is very high, but if it can greatly cut down on the bra churn I have noticed around here, there probably is a market regardless.
- pp19dd 8y agoAn incredibly astute point, thank you for balancing my sticker shock. More I think about it, more I'm surprised at just how much mass production lowers costs. Even after being aware of the Toaster Project.
- codewritinfool 8y agoWith what my wife spends on other clothing, $350 for a bra that fits and is of high quality seems ok. I think this is a good market.
- draw_down 8y agoMaybe an ok price in NYC, I dunno. But where I live, there is a somewhat “fancy” bra store, run by a woman who is also very passionate about this subject. $200 there will get you two really good bras, with an expert who will help you find ones that fit perfectly. Paying lots of money for good garments is certainly a thing. But still there is a limit. So, I wish this business luck.
- notyourday 8y agoThe downvoted into oblivion comment is actually correct: this price point is dead. She is competing not just with the custom shops but with La Perla's custom boutiques where purchases come with a glass of Veuve Clicquot and if that runs out when a person shops than another one or another one. The only price point that may have space is where VS Apex was for a better fit.
- siffland 8y agoMy thoughts exactly, This should be geeky cool, but a little out of touch with reality (could just be my reality). Even the line about being Tesla and making it an "affordable" $135, I have a wife and three daughters, even at that price it would be unobtainable. It will be interesting if Women chime in here to express if all that custom fitting (and the technology involved) would be worth the money of that custom fitted bra.
- neaanopri 8y agoStated goal is 4 customers per month! Are there 4 perpetually bra-frustrated people with unlimited disposable income in NYC? Hell yes! Apparel is a different world from consumer electronics in terms of pricing.
- jandrese 8y agoIs $1400/month raw income enough to sustain a business in NYC?
- mcguire 8y agoWith or without VC funding?
- onion2k 8y ago4 customers doesn't mean 4 bra sales. Women usually own more than one bra.
- jandrese 8y agoOk, but how many bras are they expecting each woman to buy? It's going to have to be a lot for them to spend a whole week working with each customer.
- selectodude 8y agoI imagine they’re buying more than one bra.
- rhacker 8y agoIt's a bootstrapping period!
- 1123581321 8y agoMy wife spends $80 to get the proper fit, comfort and longevity she is looking for. I understand $80 is already something of a premium, so 4x that still seems high, but I am sure there is a small market of women who don’t know about, or aren’t happy with, the $80 options. The included service is obviously a benefit, for one.
- cimmanom 8y agoIf you're an "unusual" size (i.e. out side the 32-38 A-DD sold in Victoria's Secret), $80 is about par for the course. And that's not even taking into account comfort.
- cimmanom 8y agoIt's a lot. But... for something that often costs $80; is generally available only in sizes that comfortably fit a small proportion of the population; and where improper fit means pain all day... worth it if you can afford it. I for one have been watching this closely, and will probably buy if/when the price hits $150-ish.
- androidgirl 8y agoYeah, I can't see myself ever paying THAT much for a bra, even if it's absolutely perfect. Hopefully they can bring costs down eventually through some means. A bra that's 90% perfect at about a third of that cost would be something I would consider.
- Raphmedia 8y agoThink of a bra as a medical brace. It's worth the investment to get a quality one. --- A bad one will: - cause you constant pain, - cut blood circulation, - keep you from being able to run, - exacerbate back injuries, - cause skin injuries, - get colonized by bacterias and possibly fungus, - create smells, - cause allergic reactions, - etc. --- A bra isn't only a device meant to look good. You often pay $60-$90 for a one that seems well made only for it to fall apart after 3 months of wearing. Paying $350 for one that would fit perfectly and last a long time is not far fetched at all.
- icebraining 8y agoBut bad ones aren't the competition; existing good ones (even if not as good) are. How much are those?
- Raphmedia 8y agoWell, I'm not in the premium bra market at all so I couldn't tell. I'm still buying one every few month and enduring the metal wires stabbing me in the chest. That being said, a quick googling gives all kind of pries. https://secretsfromyoursister.com/ https://secretsfromyoursister.com/ <- $80-$200 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1976927179/anesi-bra-the-first-bra-that-adapts-to-your-breast https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1976927179/anesi-bra-th... <- 80$ but kickstarter https://foreveryourslingerie.ca/product/?cName=BRAS&pName=Prima_Donna_Madison_Bra&categoryId=1&productId=942 https://foreveryourslingerie.ca/product/?cName=BRAS&pName=Pr... <- 144$ https://foreveryourslingerie.ca/product/?cName=BRAS&pName=Empreinte_Grace_Full_Support_Bra&categoryId=1&productId=6455&shop= https://foreveryourslingerie.ca/product/?cName=BRAS&pName=Em... <- 209$ In my eyes, the pricing is similar to comparing a regular hair dryer ($17) to the Dyson Supersonic hairdryer ($399). Or perhaps a cheap pair of boots ($49) that lasts one winter to an expensive pair ($250+) that lasts a few years.
- mikestew 8y agoIF my wife and her "huge tracts of land" put one of these on, and her breasts said, "We're home.", I'd gladly pay it. It sure beats paying yet-another-$85 for a bra that isn't going to be any better than the last one, and then listen to her bitch multiple times a week about how she can't find a bra that fits. Hell, I drop $150 on running shoes that last me three months, $350 for a bra she can get a year out of ain't no thing. But, man, at that price there's a tall bar to meet. We'll pay for quality, but if it's not up to snuff, it goes back the next day.
- kaitai 8y agoJust in case you don't know, do check out https://www.reddit.com/r/ABraThatFits/wiki/measuring https://www.reddit.com/r/ABraThatFits/wiki/measuring for now!
- black-tea 8y agoYes. But I spend no less than £400 on a pair of shoes. The shoes will last me decades with proper maintenance and repairs. This doesn't seem strange to me as long as the bras last a very long time. If they don't last a long time, or if the bra size changes too often, then it is ridiculous, though.
- jbob2000 8y ago-
- jacobush 8y agoThis is what it is yet, but unlike all the other bra makers, these are on a mission. Maybe they lie about being on a mission, maybe they will fail, but they are reaching for more than any bra company before them.
- DelaneyM 8y agoThe many concerns in this thread (and their upvotes) about price (350$) are one of the best examples of the risks of gender imbalance in venture funding I've yet seen. I suspect pretty much any woman in North America, regardless of ability to afford it, would see that as a totally rational price point. And as someone who _can_ afford it, I'm seriously weighing a trip to NYC to be fitted.
- 1123581321 8y agoI thought you might be right, so I did some polling on this product and got feedback like: * “Bergner’s and Macy’s already can get a good fit. They have 15 cup sizes most people don’t know about” * “I’d pay $150 for a custom fit if my size weren’t fluctuating” * “If I have to travel, I can already get a really good bra in Paris, NY or London that look better” * “Seems like it could be successful if enough women who don’t know their options hear about it” These are aggregates of the most commonly expressed opinions. It seems like price might be a valid concern of women as well as men. I am sure that with enough press, this founder can succeed, but I don’t think I’d necessarily be biased if I thought it wasn’t competitive or disruptive enough. The qualities and connections of the founding team matter more than anything when the problem is that existing solutions aren’t popular enough to meet demand.
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoNo, no, no, you've got it all wrong it's impossible for men to understand, o-kay! /s
- fipple 8y agoLOL I hope your representative American woman isn’t one familiar with the shopping in London, Paris, and NY.
- sokoloff 8y agoEven if they are, maybe especially if they are, that only reinforces the point that $350ea might be a catastrophically too high price.
- jstanley 8y ago> we have learned through firsthand experience many of the variables behind bra-making. I will name a short list: > [...] > Temperature of the measuring tape at time of measuring Are you sure? If the measuring tape is made of steel, it expands by a factor of 13e-6[0] for every degree C that it heats up. If you measure first with a 0 degree C tape measure, and then with a 100 degree C tape measure (both of which are absurd and will be extremely uncomfortable), then the second measurement will differ from the first by a factor of 13e-4. A measurement of 100mm will become 100.0013mm. Can you even cut the fabric precisely enough for that to matter? [0] http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/thexp.html http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/thexp.html EDIT: But see replies below: it's more likely that the temperature of the tape causes changes in the shape of the skin. EDIT2: Also just realised I initially missed out the second factor of 100, so it becomes 100.13mm instead of 100.0013mm, which is almost close enough to matter, but only in the extreme scenario of 100 degrees C change in temperature.
- JoeAltmaier 8y agoNobody measures people with a steel tape? Its cloth or plastic.
- jstanley 8y agoOK, my mistake. To me, a tape measure is a steel thing that coils itself up. Let's try and find some numbers for cloth and plastic: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coeffici... ABS heats up by a factor of 100e-6 per degree C. The largest number I spotted was paraffin with 106e-6 to 480e-6 per degree C. If the tape measure is made of the most-expanding type of paraffin, which is itself the most-expanding material listed, then the 100mm measurement becomes 100.05mm when heated by 100 degrees C. I really don't think a difference of 50 micrometres matters, or is even achievable, in the manufacture of a bra. EDIT: (But I see the other points now - it's not the thermal expansion of the tape, but the body's reaction to the temperature).
- deleted 8y ago
- ArtWomb 8y agoLove write-ups like this: applying research methods to everyday scenarios. If you are going to go all out, definitely consider graphene as a candidate material. You can always put "Tactical" in the name and sell to the Defense industry ;) Graphene fed spiders spin bionic silk https://newatlas.com/bionic-spider-silk-graphene/50908/ https://newatlas.com/bionic-spider-silk-graphene/50908/
- throwaway_45 8y ago350 dollars for a bra? I think the bubble is truly upon us. I am sure it will sell well too. And I see people on this thread trying to justify the price.
- yodon 8y agoThis seems like a good time to mention the history of the Apollo space suits, which were made for the manliest of men in the highly gender normed 1950's by the largest corset and bra maker in the country. Why? Because bras and girdles require incredibly high skill design and fabrication engineering, as bra theory is discovering and as no other garment manufacturer of the day could equal. [0] http://mentalfloss.com/article/82726/how-playtex-helped-win-space-race http://mentalfloss.com/article/82726/how-playtex-helped-win-...
- girvo 8y agoThat’s fascinating, but makes sense! Considering how unique everyone’s bodies, and especially breasts can be, it’s amazing that mass produced even gets to “almost good enough”; I can’t wish Bra Theory enough luck!
- totally 8y ago"let's bring this back to men for just a second..."
- rootusrootus 8y agoThat sounds really interesting, but Google says that ILC Dover had become it's own division in the later 1940s and was already into aerospace before Apollo came along. So ... was it really Playtex switching from bras to space suits, or is that just click bait because the only real involvement of Playtex is as the legal owner of the division?
- gowld 8y agoIt was the same expertise of the company that made bras. Playtex didn't own ILC Dover because of some financial engineering, but because of a shared core competency in materials engineering and manufacturing.
- Spooky23 8y agoSpecialty garmet and textile work is a skilled trade that requires time to mature. There’s more synergy than you might think!
- glibgil 8y ago> Launch the NYC experience > Nude > Colors Who’s “nude”? When is the industry going to update this term? If a female person of color outsider won’t, I guess it’s not important to anyone
- durkie 8y agowhat's wrong with the term? seems like there can be more than one "nude".
- glibgil 8y agoThere isn’t in practice so you are soeaking naively for no good reason. A company that wanted to shed the term would say something like “seven skin tones” if they offered more than one “nude”
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- knodi123 8y ago> Who’s “nude”? When is the industry going to update this term? Reminds me of a scene from some sitcom I can't remember, where a guy is trying to be inclusive, so he says "We employ people of every race here- black, yellow, brown, and normal."
- lttlrck 8y agoYour definition of nude might be out of date: https://www.allure.com/gallery/nude-makeup-shades-for-every-skin-tone https://www.allure.com/gallery/nude-makeup-shades-for-every-...
- glibgil 8y agoYou made my point. If it doesn’t mention skin tone then it is likely limited to one color
- kaitai 8y ago
- cimmanom 8y agoThere's a lot of focus in this thread on the bras, specifically. But the lessons learned, as described in the article, are much more generalizable, and I found them valuable. How many of us spend years perfecting products instead of launching an MVP and learning as we go? How many of us build automation before seeking domain expertise when we really should do it the other way around?
- mysterydip 8y agoLesson #4: Perfect is the enemy of good I find myself re-learning or having to remind myself of this every so often. It's easy as a "person of a problem-solving nature" to want my solution to be problem-free. But what that usually ends up meaning is my solution never gets completed. Tackle the low-hanging fruit, then if there's enough demand/reason to continue development, do the rest.
- lbriner 8y agoI think although the lesson might be self-explanatory, the hard part is knowing what is "good enough". We often doubt that if we have something crappy, that we will get any interest or traction so the MVP gets delayed. As the OP says in the article, if they couldn't have any benefits over a custom bra maker, what were they selling exactly?
- Zelphyr 8y agoWe tell our clients this over, and over, and over, and over. And over. It's really hard to let their baby into the world without it being perfect. Even when you show them the graveyard of products (my own included!) that found themselves there because their owners hadn't defined what "Good enough" means from the get-go.
- ryanmercer 8y ago350$ for a garment? For an undergarment?! What?! That's 48 hours of minimum wage in my state for maybe 15$ of material IF it includes hand-made lace. You can buy custom-made corsets for cheaper than this (yes they can be far more expensive but most of that is exotic material cost). You can buy custom made lifting boots/shoes for this that have a considerably higher material cost. I work in international freight currently, I know extremely well what imported textiles cost including bras, even if these are hand-made in the US per customer there's an awful lot of profit there unless they are made out of unobtanium. This is a prime example of 'pink tax' in my opinion and/or inefficient manufacturing processes (again, even if hand made) and/or unreasonable salaries.
- salamanderman 8y agoFor those in the Bay Area, I highly recommend Revelation In Fit, https://www.revelationinfit.com https://www.revelationinfit.com . It's completely changed how I think of fit; I'm an F cup, an H when I was nursing, and having a real fit is no comparison to the days of have a Nordstrom employee trying to convince me to squash into a D. Definitely visit Revelation In Fit before flying to New York, and then maybe fly out. It does sound awesome.
- Jun8 8y agoMaybe I missed in the article but it seems they're not using 3D modeling. Why not, esp. considering the prevalence of cheap 3D sensors? According to Google there are many people working in this area (as well as shoe fitting). The goal should be to totally smash current custom fit prices, e.g. to ~$50 level, e.g. using a self-serve fitting station at Macy's. Many such stations can be monitored by one person, similar to how self-serve check out stations are monitored in grocery stores. The above is for mass market. OP's manual approach can still be used as a high-end service for those who can afford it, e.g. pret-a-porter vs. tailor.
- ynniv 8y agoOptical measurements are good for rigid objects, but humans are squishy. Accurate measurement for clothes requires some interaction and judgement. We could eventually have robots do it, but cameras alone aren't enough.
- downandout 8y agoShe said in the article that they abandoned the 3D modeling idea after the results turned out to be less than ideal. I also cannot really understand how they couldn’t have worked such a thing out though, even given all of the other factors she mentions in the article that they must account for. It would seem that all of the factors could fairly easily be thrown into the algorithm.
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoAIUI breast size and shape alter, even for fixed body weight. Full 3D modelling might be an over-optimisation?
- pureliquidhw 8y agoI'm guessing because there are more dimensions than simply shape of breast that affect the fit of a bra. I wonder if a machine could be made that inflates/deflates a proxy of a bra until the woman (wearer? Am I assuming gender?) is comfortable. Take the readings of a comfortable fit and construct a bra that provides that support. Basically, you don't care about the shape of the breast, you care about the shape of that individual's comfortable breast and the pressure needed to get it into that state.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Invictus0 8y ago> Temperature of the measuring tape at time of measuring Can't tell if this is real or not. I'm fairly confident that the thermal expansion of the measuring tape is not going to make even a tenth of a millimeter difference in precision: does it have to do with the temperature of the skin?
- gowld 8y agoIt could be real (more likely a skin effect than a tape effect) but insignificant, but just a pile-on of "differentiating" features.
- mitchtbaum 8y agoSince the interest here comes from the engineering angle, there's another interesting tool to bring up, Reusable Adhesive Silicone Nipple Covers. If I had breasts, I'd probably wear those instead, for better freedom of motion and heat dissipation. afaict, bras don't prevent breasts from sagging anyway[0]. Looking at the top results just on Amazon's store, there appears to be huge interest developing in using those and I see lots of reviews of women saying they're so happy not to have to wear a bra anymore. 0: https://www.thelingerieaddict.com/2013/11/last-time-tribal-african-women-proof-bras-prevent-breast-sagging.html https://www.thelingerieaddict.com/2013/11/last-time-tribal-a...
- knicholes 8y agoMy wife says that running without a bra is very uncomfortable.
- kaybe 8y agoGlue on your skin every day? Bah!
- kleinsch 8y agoWhich is the more likely scenario? 1. Women everywhere are spending tons of money on uncomfortable garments to cover their nipples, because they don't realize nipple covers exist 2. Bras serve a much bigger purpose than covering nipples (hint - what's a jock strap used for? imagine needing that all day, not just when you're running...)
- novia 8y agoHi, I'm a woman. #1 is definitely the more likely scenario, based on conversations I've had with other women without large breasts. The only people who like wearing bras are people who feel like they need support for whatever reason. For everyone else, they are complicated nipple covers that you are expected by society to wear.
- 8y ago
- mixmastamyk 8y agoDid our high school counselors let us down or what?
- anyzen 8y agoThis doesn't make sense to me. Ok, so I understand that it is time consuming to take the first measurement, but I would assume that the first bra would be expensive, but all the next ones would be much cheaper (if it's the same model) or getting cheaper and cheaper with each order. What am I missing?
- CydeWeys 8y agoAs the article says, they're all custom-fabricated to match the exact dimensions of a specific person. These are one-off, custom bras. There's little economy of scale possible.
- cimmanom 8y agoIt sounds like the plan is to eventually automate fabrication in order to achieve such economies of scale; that they're currently doing it manually in part because they didn't yet have enough information to properly automate.
- jaf656s 8y agoThere's a really good point in here that I had to learn the hard way: one of a founder's most valuable assets is a deep understanding of the customer's problem(s) and how to solve them. The tech is far less important. She first tried a naive tech-focused approach and realized that she didn't understand the problem well enough and making adjustments to the tech was slowing her learning down too much. She made a great decision to optimize for learning speed and temporarily build a more traditional custom-fit bra business. She has learned a lot about the problem space and what makes a good solution. Now she's using technology as a tool to enhance and optimize the process that already arrives at a good solution. We do the same thing when we write code: 1. understand the problem 2. write a correct solution 3. optimize the solution When it comes to coding we know Knuth's Law of optimization by heart, but still make the same mistake in other contexts.
- gowld 8y agoThe failure mode here seems to be assuming that every business must be a "tech" business.
- HenryTheHorse 8y ago> one of a founder's most valuable assets is a deep understanding of the customer's problem(s) and how to solve them. IMHO, it's the ONLY thing that matters - and like you, I too learned it the hard way. Optimizing for non-existent (or non-critical) problems is a very common mistake.
- PaulHoule 8y agoThis quote is great: "Lesson #2: Be prepared to learn all the reasons why no one has solved your problem." So often no progress gets made because there are five reasons people haven't made progress but everybody is making excuses about why they only need to solve three of them and wondering why their "minimal" product isn't viable.
- syntaxing 8y agoInteresting. I wonder if they only do product design tests (design to their best ability and ask for feedback from trial users) or do they hire a mechanical engineer to run FEA simulation through something like COMSOL or ANSYS.
- gumby 8y agoThis article is full of great advice/experience, and I almost skipped over it as I don't wear bras.
- meroes 8y agoGood article and people are reading way to much into the bra theory, which isn't the lesson here.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoA lot of people in the comments seem to be forgetting that the relationship between quality (or utility) and price is almost never even close to linear, it is approximately logarithmic with price on the X axis. A $350 bra is well into the long tail. There is nothing "value" about it but it's not trying to be a good value, it's trying to be a superb product. The cost is basically just a number when you're at the very top end like that.
- prettybra 8y agohttp://www.diamantstore.gr/index.php?lang=gr&com=products&id=44#.XAbtR3UzbmE http://www.diamantstore.gr/index.php?lang=gr&com=products&id...
- amluto 8y agoSomething I didn’t see in the article: is their a pricing model for multiple bras? I can imagine that a lot of people who would buy a $350 bra would gladly pay $750 for, say, 10 bras. Or even for a smaller number of bras and a copy of the pattern that they can use to get new bras later from Bra Theory or elsewhere.
- CosmicShadow 8y agoLove how many men in this thread are acting like they have an opinion that matters about a market AND body parts they can never truly understand.
- DoofusOfDeath 8y agoIt would be helpful if you could restate your point with greater nuance. As currently phrased, it sounds like you're perhaps suggesting men stay out of the conversation entirely.
- kaybe 8y agoIt is a bit astonishing that there are so many opinions and so few questions.
- chrisco255 8y agoThat's a typical HN comment section though.
- Retra 8y agoOne would think a man who holds the same opinion as a woman would be just as capable of having a valid opinion as that woman. Which opinions are held and whether they are valid or not isn't really a function of what body parts one possesses.
- yason 8y agoThe linked article https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-bras-ff75f0e6fe23 https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-bras... was a very interesting breakdown of what all it takes and why basically all bras are often just bad approxximations.
- larkinrichards 8y agoIt seems to me that the hardproblem here is reliably measuring breasts, and then reliably (and repeatably!) manufacturing the perfect bra. It is not a question of designing the perfect bra given a set of measurements. It’s more “can we make it perfectly?” And “are the measurements accurate?” as any seamstress or seamster would tell you, it takes a life time to sew perfectly. It’s a CNC mill where you need to tension the materials and threads just perfectly while you move the x/y table. And if you’ve ever had a suit measured, you know the person taking measurements needs to be in sync with the manufacturer, otherwise it’s a waste of time. And for what it’s worth, my partner would not pay $350 for a perfect bra (and I mean perfect!).
- waterhouse 8y agoSo the original post[1] commented that there is a combinatorial explosion of possible bras from having, the author says, 10 parameters to work with. I read that there was a similar scenario in the design of airplane cockpits, such that there were enough different dimensions of human variation that it was hopeless to design for the "average pilot": even assuming that each dimension had 80% of pilots within the acceptable range, it was basically guaranteed to be unacceptable for the vast majority of pilots. I read that the solution was to make all the relevant aspects of the cockpit adjustable; and that this was deemed expensive and dismissed at first, but it became obviously necessary and they sucked it up and did it. A simple, cheap, and effective process for custom-made bras seems ideal if they have it, but if that is difficult, then I wonder: could it work to make as many dimensions as possible adjustable, and then suffer only mild combinatorial explosion on the remainder? [1] https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-bras-ff75f0e6fe23 https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-bras... , linked from the article.