8 ms·

Hey, can you show me some of these well documented instances? The Duke Lacross case gets brought up a lot, but all those guys were exonerated and as far as I'm

by neaden 8y ago

Hey, can you show me some of these well documented instances? The Duke Lacross case gets brought up a lot, but all those guys were exonerated and as far as I'm aware doing fine. Kavanaugh just got appointed to the Supreme Court and Lois C.K is popping up to do comedy sets, so I'm curious to see these many well documented cases you refer to.

jerf 8y ago
Even accepting your cited cases as the limit (which they are not), I can't accept being nationally and universally condemned and smeared for months or years on end despite being innocent as a perfectly acceptable outcome for a baseless accusation. I suspect you'd be a lot less flippant about how everything turned out fine if you'd be in any of their positions.
tomp 8y ago
A few outhers are: Oxford Union president, Jian Gomeshi, "The Mattress Girl".
- neaden 8y ago
  I'm not familiar with the Oxford Union president. Jian Gomeshi was credibly accused, the fact that he was found not guilty does not mean his accuser was false. I don't know why you include Emma Sulkowicz, I know of no evidence at all that she falsely accused someone. Also Jian Gomeshi is writing articles for the New York Review of Books and the man Emma Sulkowicz accused graduated, so neither of their lives were ruined.
  - SpicyLemonZest 8y ago
    The idea that Ghomeshi was “credibly accused” is rather the point. In the only cases that went to court, he was found not guilty, and the judge went on quite a tangent about how the witnesses had lied to and hid evidence from the court. If that’s not enough to clear his name, how can anyone ever escape the stain of a credible accusation? It seems prudent given that problem to ensure that no accusation will be credible.
    - dvlsg 8y ago
      Witnesses for which side? Or was it both sides?
      - SpicyLemonZest 8y ago
        For the prosecution. The accusers had all continued flirting with (and in one case sleeping with) Ghomeshi after the alleged assaults. One lied about it, and the other two didn't bring it up until the defense got hold of their emails.
sk4rekr0w 8y ago
The Duke Lacrosse players were crucified - 88 professors signed a letter vilifying them before any meaningful evidence. PROFESSORS - the arbiters of the scientific standard. Imagine if there wasn't exonerating evidence. People refer to Kavanaugh as a rapist when he wasn't even accused of rape. 50% (or more) of the country still thinks of him as such. His family and children received death threats. The case of Brian Banks is an example that should meet your standard. Black man with a potential professional football career goes to jail, DNA evidence exonerates years later. Your past is still vital to who you are, both in your own eyes and in the eyes of others. Your comment is ignorant of the trauma that these circumstances bring to the accused - if you can have empathy for the victim, you should be able to carry the same empathy for the accused.
gsich 8y ago
A case in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Kachelmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Kachelmann Alice Schwarzer (german feminist) accused him even after he was found not guilty. Had to pay a fine because of that. Again Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina-Lisa_Lohfink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina-Lisa_Lohfink The matress stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_rape_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_rape_contr... But we know of those only because they were public figures or have been carried out in public. You don't hear about the private ones.
- neaden 8y ago
  From your wikipedia link on the Columbia case. "Three other complaints have been alleged against Nungesser: a second woman accused him of emotional abuse and nonconsensual sex during a months-long relationship, a third student accused him of non-consensually kissing her and touching her at a party, and a fourth accuser emerged in early 2015, a fourth-year male student who said Nungesser sexually assaulted him after an emotional conversation." Oh yeah, this guy sounds like a real peach whose life was turned upside down by a false accusation. Also people here really seem to be assuming any case where someone is found not guilty means the accusation was false, which is not how it works. Just ask OJ Simpson.
  - gsich 8y ago
    We don't know if those other complaints are true. >Also people here really seem to be assuming any case where someone is found not guilty means the accusation was false, which is not how it works. Just ask OJ Simpson. For a third person this is kinda how it works.
briandear 8y ago
Duke Lacrosse might be “doing fine” now, but while it was happening they certainly weren’t doing fine. Kavanaugh made it to the court, but for the rest of his term, he’s under a cloud. What happened to Kavanaugh was brutal. Just because someone survived the ordeal does lessen the fact that it happened at all.
- neaden 8y ago
  Just to be clear, you know he almost certainly did it right? Dr. Ford came forward before he was nominated. Also he has full time security guards now and gets welcomed with standing ovations, whereas Dr. Ford keeps having to move because of all the death threats and hasn't been able to go back to her job.
  - SpicyLemonZest 8y ago
    If you were in Kavanaugh’s position, and you didn’t do it, how would you go about clearing your name?
    - neaden 8y ago
      Well to start I wouldn't have gone up and said a bunch of easily verifiable lies where I claiming boofing meant farting and that I threw up a lot during beach week because I have a sensitive stomach. I wouldn't have had a temper tantrum where I complain about how the Clinton's were somehow behind it. I would have encouraged an FBI investigation into things and encouraged them to speak to the only other witness, Mark Judge.
      - sk4rekr0w 8y ago
        "easily verifiable lies" - comments like this make me happy he's going to be a SCJ for the next 30-40 years
    - FilterSweep 8y ago
      You’d have to start under the presumption that he didn’t do it.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
TomVDB 8y ago
Ultimately, I don't think the percentage of cases really matter: we have a tendency to have an irrational fear of things that have a very low probability. (Like child abduction etc.) I don't think this is any different. The chance of being falsely accused is probably very small, but I know I'd absolutely crushed, both mentally and physically (lack of sleep for months in a row) if it happened to me. Even if, a year or two later, they'd clear my name. It's sufficient to have just a few high profile cases to increase that fear. That doesn't mean that I'd go out of my way to avoid hiring women...
- ryandrake 8y ago
  This is risk impact 101. Risk = probability x impact. Even when the probability is small (false accusations), the huge potential impact can result in large overall risk.
  - xiphias2 8y ago
    The damage is not simply probability x impact, as it's also important to limit the potential downside. When a person or company pays for insurance, it increases the average damage in return for decreasing the variance.

by neaden 8y ago

jerf 8y ago

Even accepting your cited cases as the limit (which they are not), I can't accept being nationally and universally condemned and smeared for months or years on end despite being innocent as a perfectly acceptable outcome for a baseless accusation. I suspect you'd be a lot less flippant about how everything turned out fine if you'd be in any of their positions.

tomp 8y ago

A few outhers are: Oxford Union president, Jian Gomeshi, "The Mattress Girl".

neaden 8y ago
I'm not familiar with the Oxford Union president. Jian Gomeshi was credibly accused, the fact that he was found not guilty does not mean his accuser was false. I don't know why you include Emma Sulkowicz, I know of no evidence at all that she falsely accused someone. Also Jian Gomeshi is writing articles for the New York Review of Books and the man Emma Sulkowicz accused graduated, so neither of their lives were ruined.
- SpicyLemonZest 8y ago
  The idea that Ghomeshi was “credibly accused” is rather the point. In the only cases that went to court, he was found not guilty, and the judge went on quite a tangent about how the witnesses had lied to and hid evidence from the court. If that’s not enough to clear his name, how can anyone ever escape the stain of a credible accusation? It seems prudent given that problem to ensure that no accusation will be credible.
  - dvlsg 8y ago
    Witnesses for which side? Or was it both sides?
    - SpicyLemonZest 8y ago
      For the prosecution. The accusers had all continued flirting with (and in one case sleeping with) Ghomeshi after the alleged assaults. One lied about it, and the other two didn't bring it up until the defense got hold of their emails.

sk4rekr0w 8y ago

The Duke Lacrosse players were crucified - 88 professors signed a letter vilifying them before any meaningful evidence. PROFESSORS - the arbiters of the scientific standard. Imagine if there wasn't exonerating evidence. People refer to Kavanaugh as a rapist when he wasn't even accused of rape. 50% (or more) of the country still thinks of him as such. His family and children received death threats. The case of Brian Banks is an example that should meet your standard. Black man with a potential professional football career goes to jail, DNA evidence exonerates years later. Your past is still vital to who you are, both in your own eyes and in the eyes of others. Your comment is ignorant of the trauma that these circumstances bring to the accused - if you can have empathy for the victim, you should be able to carry the same empathy for the accused.

gsich 8y ago

A case in Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Kachelmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Kachelmann Alice Schwarzer (german feminist) accused him even after he was found not guilty. Had to pay a fine because of that. Again Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina-Lisa_Lohfink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina-Lisa_Lohfink The matress stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_rape_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_rape_contr... But we know of those only because they were public figures or have been carried out in public. You don't hear about the private ones.

neaden 8y ago
From your wikipedia link on the Columbia case. "Three other complaints have been alleged against Nungesser: a second woman accused him of emotional abuse and nonconsensual sex during a months-long relationship, a third student accused him of non-consensually kissing her and touching her at a party, and a fourth accuser emerged in early 2015, a fourth-year male student who said Nungesser sexually assaulted him after an emotional conversation." Oh yeah, this guy sounds like a real peach whose life was turned upside down by a false accusation. Also people here really seem to be assuming any case where someone is found not guilty means the accusation was false, which is not how it works. Just ask OJ Simpson.
- gsich 8y ago
  We don't know if those other complaints are true. >Also people here really seem to be assuming any case where someone is found not guilty means the accusation was false, which is not how it works. Just ask OJ Simpson. For a third person this is kinda how it works.

briandear 8y ago

Duke Lacrosse might be “doing fine” now, but while it was happening they certainly weren’t doing fine. Kavanaugh made it to the court, but for the rest of his term, he’s under a cloud. What happened to Kavanaugh was brutal. Just because someone survived the ordeal does lessen the fact that it happened at all.

neaden 8y ago
Just to be clear, you know he almost certainly did it right? Dr. Ford came forward before he was nominated. Also he has full time security guards now and gets welcomed with standing ovations, whereas Dr. Ford keeps having to move because of all the death threats and hasn't been able to go back to her job.
- SpicyLemonZest 8y ago
  If you were in Kavanaugh’s position, and you didn’t do it, how would you go about clearing your name?
  - neaden 8y ago
    Well to start I wouldn't have gone up and said a bunch of easily verifiable lies where I claiming boofing meant farting and that I threw up a lot during beach week because I have a sensitive stomach. I wouldn't have had a temper tantrum where I complain about how the Clinton's were somehow behind it. I would have encouraged an FBI investigation into things and encouraged them to speak to the only other witness, Mark Judge.
    - sk4rekr0w 8y ago
      "easily verifiable lies" - comments like this make me happy he's going to be a SCJ for the next 30-40 years
  - FilterSweep 8y ago
    You’d have to start under the presumption that he didn’t do it.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

TomVDB 8y ago

Ultimately, I don't think the percentage of cases really matter: we have a tendency to have an irrational fear of things that have a very low probability. (Like child abduction etc.) I don't think this is any different. The chance of being falsely accused is probably very small, but I know I'd absolutely crushed, both mentally and physically (lack of sleep for months in a row) if it happened to me. Even if, a year or two later, they'd clear my name. It's sufficient to have just a few high profile cases to increase that fear. That doesn't mean that I'd go out of my way to avoid hiring women...

ryandrake 8y ago
This is risk impact 101. Risk = probability x impact. Even when the probability is small (false accusations), the huge potential impact can result in large overall risk.
- xiphias2 8y ago
  The damage is not simply probability x impact, as it's also important to limit the potential downside. When a person or company pays for insurance, it increases the average damage in return for decreasing the variance.