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Designing cities to counter loneliness? Let's explore the possibilities

156 points by wallflower 8y ago

dominotw 8y ago
This assumes that loneliness is from inablity to meet ppl. Ins't loneliness the inablity to connect ppl on genuine level. Meeting ppl problem is already solved by meetup.com
- wenc 8y ago
  I think loneliness is the inability to meet people with whom you can have a connection with. And the design of spaces can help or hinder that. The deepest sources of connection come from shared adversity, shared goals/interest or shared stage of life. To meet people with these qualities, you have to first congregate them in time and space, and then give them opportunities for repeated exposure to each other [1]. (studies have shown that repeated exposure creates the necessary conditions for building rapport -- humans by default are evolutionarily guarded against unfamiliarity i.e. strangers, and repeated exposure lowers that guardedness) That's why parents at a playground are able to, if they desire, connect with someone and to potentially grow that connection. They have shared adversity, shared goals/interests, shared stage of life and repeated exposure. I have personally experienced how bad building designs hinder connection. At my workplace, the cubicles are high and large pillars block views, essentially creating a maze-like layout. One can walk directly to one's cubicle each morning without saying "good morning" to anyone on the way. My entire whole floor is oddly cold and introverted, and no one takes notice of what anyone else is doing. Most days folks don't even know if a co-worker is at his/her desk. In theory one can walk up to each person and say "hi", but it's weird and awkward, and people tend not to do it. Whereas in my old workplace, the layout was much more conducive to nonchalant interactions, and we were much closer as colleagues and shared many funny and interesting conversations -- not everyone did of course -- but appreciably more did than at my current workplace. Having a bunch of co-workers that you're friendly with can immensely improve your mood throughout the day. [1] I go to a lot of Meetup groups. Most are extraordinarily bad when it comes to repeated exposure, because in a big city, there isn't a common core group that consistently shows up -- it's different people every time, and it's hard to form community when your population is always in flux.
  - sidibe 8y ago
    When I was younger being in the same neighborhood was the main way to make close friends. This wasn't just for kids, it seemed like my parents' close friends also tended to be neighbors. Now it seems like people's friends are more far-flung (as in 15 minute drive radius vs walking distance), and people who aren't able to maintain those kinds of connections as well also don't get the automatic friend opportunity of neighbors because their neighbors' social lives aren't as local. I think the internet and especially cell phones contributed to this by allowing some people to maintain friendships easier with people further away. Don't know if that's generally true or just nostalgia + what I've seen.
- cylinder 8y ago
  And lack of time to do anything. Nobody has time or energy to do social activities during the week after work. One weekend day lost to household errands and maintenance leaves one day of rest and socializing. Obviously family and long time friends prioritised above newcomers.
  - dominotw 8y ago
    > family and long time friends prioritised this is a good problem to have for ppl being referred to this topic :D
- watwut 8y ago
  It is more lack of people one would meet regularly. You don't need perfect match, just passable-to-no match can develop into friendship over time. However, if there is no stabilit in who you meet, friendship wont happen even with great people around - it will remain shallow.
newman8r 8y ago
One interesting thing I noticed when I was living in the middle of nowhere on a 5 acre parcel: I knew all of my neighbors. I'd encounter them on a regular basis and would have meaningful conversations with them. People would help out when needed, I had all their emails and phone numbers. When I'm living in the suburbs or in a big city, meaningful contact with neighbors is fairly nonexistent.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  Great. One of the things I noticed when living in the country is I had virtually no interaction with my neighbors. Now in the city I interact with my neighbors all the time (maybe to the point of irritation). Perhaps the difference in our experience is explained by small sample size & not systematic differences...
  - jniedrauer 8y ago
    There is a threshold beyond which you have to know your neighbors in order to survive. Some of my earliest memories are riding my neighbor's snowmobile down the side of a mountain with my parents to buy groceries. Obviously this is not a situation which most rural dwellers will find themselves in.
  - newman8r 8y ago
    yeah it probably goes beyond rural vs city living. In my situation, it was mutually beneficial to have good relationships with the neighbors because police and emergency services were 30 minutes away at best. Also I was in the desert and the population density was ~4-5 people per square mile - how does that compare to where you were living?
sideshowb 8y ago
Shameless self plug, but relevant: a few years ago I did a test of the association between spatial layout and community cohesion which came back positive for a number of network analysis measures on two different data sets. https://ij-healthgeographics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-072X-13-11 https://ij-healthgeographics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1... tldr (refined and simplified with a few years hindsight): more walkable neighbourhoods = better
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  What are your thoughts on cities which outlaw cars entirely?
  - sideshowb 8y ago
    My (non researched) opinion on this one is that most westerners find cars useful, hence car free development risks creating a district populated only by people who can't afford cars. Segregating people in that way that is going to cause other problems, it happened before in the uk when planners decided it was a great idea to knock down aging buildings and replace with tower blocks of cheap flats. That said I do think we need to challenge our assumptions about the role cars play in society. It is assumed that highways are for cars primarily and this needs to be reined in somewhat. Car free development might work in places where there is already a sizable wealthy demographic choosing to live car free e.g. London. As to whole cities going car free, are there any? Not something I've looked into, would be interested to know.
    - luckydata 8y ago
      Has nothing to do with wealth and everything with zoning laws. If there's mixed use, enough density to justify good public transport then cities without cars thrive (just like they did before cars were invented). Your "observation" outs you as someone that spent most of his life in the US where most cities were designed around cars. US cities are awful, by the way. Imagine this: a bunch of folks come to a completely unexploited continent, rape and pillage until they ran out of land and then proceeded to create one of the most unhealthy societies ever. It's easy to be economically successful when there's tons of resources and nobody to share them with, the true measure of a society it's how most of their people live: without public healthcare, no welfare protections, lonely, stressed out, sicker than their european counterparts.
joe_the_user 8y ago
Okay, I have hosted adult Dungeons and Dragons games for many years, a pursuit that's as close to individuals common together again loneliness as one gets. Trying to find areas for small groups to use for this and other things peaked my interest in the organization of cities to encourage or discourage individuals coming together. Effectively, I think the structure of American cities have always been designed fundamentally to decrease togetherness outside of churches and hence today increase loneliness. The basic principle since the puritan arrived has been that an idle people gathered together were a danger. Hence laws against vagrancy and idleness, the non-existence of anything like the promenades of European cities, the prohibition of alcohol and later marijuana and so-forth. The Occupy movement of several years ago, for a further example, was ended merely by enforcing all of the existing against camping, loitering, disorderly conduct and so-forth [1]. Today, rent is so high and homelessness so prevalent that any location that allows people to mill about freely is going entice homeless to sleep and hence will attract repression. There are locations calling themselves "community centers". They only rent their common rooms for $25/hour or more, an amount that makes it impossible for most informal, average individual to afford. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorderly_conduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorderly_conduct
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  Not that I disagree with your general idea, just posting as an FYI to folks in the area: I live in Gilroy (small town south of San Jose), and our local library has several meeting rooms that are available for public use. You do have to reserve them, but the fee is a flat $25, not per hour, and they're clean, well lit, have internet, all that good stuff. Many libraries have similar.
  - luckydata 8y ago
    It's cheap but there's still a fee. There's a fee on anything around here. I'm a European and I'm really bummed by how lonely and transactional our cities in California are. Want to do something social? 99% is going to be revolving around food because restaurants are the only option. The Mayor of Union city recently denied the license to a bar downtown because "we don't want that type of entertainment around here", "that type" meaning ANY entertainment that's not 30-50 minutes sitting in a restaurant then maybe movies, then go the hell back home because there's nothing to do in the East Bay.
crimsonalucard 8y ago
IMO it's not the issue of the city. It's the issue of the living space. Humans were originally hunter-gatherers that lived in tight knit tribal communities with intimate shared spaces. Any living style that deviates from this will induce loneliness. To eliminate loneliness you must form tribes. To form tribes you must produce settings that promote tribal gatherings. In essence this means intimate shared living spaces with medium sized groups of people. The keyword is "medium-sized" humans are not use to living with huge urban shared spaces where the people you see on the street everyday are different.
- briandear 8y ago
  I prefer lonely than forced interactions upon which I have no choice but to depend on for survival.
  - crimsonalucard 8y ago
    Gotta choose the right tribe. Bonds are usually formed through forced interactions. You have some choice but it's limited. Few people have the power to be friends with anyone they want. I wish i could be friends with Bill Gates or Elon Musk, unfortunately it's outside of my abilities.
InGodsName 8y ago
One way is: Loneliness is solved by solving the inequality issue. If others have fancy cars and silk suits. How can a poor person fit in? If we make everyone equal by taking wealth from Rich and giving it to the poors, we solve loneliness.
- wenc 8y ago
  Some people who are in financial poverty have more community than more well-to-do people. I live close to a refugee/immigrant neighborhood and despite their fears and worries, many are more connected to their families, friends and neighbors than I am. They seem to have more celebrations and get-togethers than I do with my friends. I regularly eat at restaurants there, and there's a warmth even for strangers like me that I don't experience in higher end places. On the other hand, there's palpable loneliness among transplants to relatively affluent places like Minnesota, where despite surface politeness, is a society that is very insular and does not (and does not know how to) integrate outsiders. Culture has something to do with it?
  - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
    It's not culture, it's inequality. For example, statistics from dating sites show how most people don't exclude potential partners based on ethnicity, nationality, religion, line of work etc but big differences in wealth is the line that people won't cross. The same goes for socialization and architecture is affected by it: gated communities, single-family houses, gentrification, and so on. The word "exclusive", used in real estate, is telling. All of this is meant to allow people that belong to the same social circles/companies/church to socialize and prevent mingling with people from other walks of life.
    - wenc 8y ago
      I believe I understand what you're saying. I'm curious though, how would that correlate with loneliness? Loneliness arises from the gap between one's desired connections vs one's actual connections. It is true that social class is a barrier and less mixing leads to less dynamism in society. This is a themed explored in Tyler Cowen's "The Complacent Class". But it seems to me that does not in itself produce loneliness, because there's still a tremendous number of connections made within the same social classes. My working class friends are the least lonely people I know. They seem to have tons of buddies and tend not to be that selective when it comes to making friends. But except in specific instances, they have no explicit desire to make connections across classes. I see inequality being a problem in general, but just not with respect to the specific topic of loneliness. It seems to me there's something else at play.
drivingmenuts 8y ago
Things must be very different in Australia. I can't even wrap my head around the concept of borrowing 2K from my neighbor or loaning him/her 2K. I can't believe that's a criteria for loneliness.
- doubleunplussed 8y ago
  I'm Australian and it would be pretty unusual. But maybe that's what the example is getting at. My close friends, I could probably borrow 2k from, but my neighbours are not my close friends.
- CM30 8y ago
  I can't believe it either. Heck, even most (all?) family members and friends would probably balk at the idea of lending 2K for whatever reason. Do most people's friends/families have the ability to just give out 2K in cash at the drop of a hat? Maybe yes if they're upper middle class or upper class and can just plonk thousands on a random whim, but I suspect someone making less than 40-50,000K a year would be hesitant, even more so if they're not super close.
  - templenderthrow 8y ago
    I make less than 50k and I've lent ~20k to my brother within maybe 2 years. Probably a combination of trust and me having no real big commitments that require using my money for myself. I think I put away ~1.5k USD per month in savings, maybe a bit less or a bit more.
tfha 8y ago
I think a lot of colleges do a good job of fighting lonliness. Colleges have to worry about stressed students, overworked students, mental health issues, suicide rates, because parents pay a ton of attention to these things. As a result, I think a lot of elements of campus life are things that adults could borrow from to improve their own quality of life.
- adjkant 8y ago
  I'm curious what would happen if municipalities tried to become like universities: - City sponsored interest clubs (over 300 and it only takes 10 people and a sponsor to start one!!!) - City created dining halls in every neighborhood within a 10 minute walk where one pays a reasonable rate to eat there - heck even do a privatized model so cooks can consider creating one where they get subsidies per person, some sort of revenue split, and one of the only requirements being to have a "dining hall" style eating area that encourages social interaction. This could even be folded into food assistance programs where people can go and eat at these for a reduced price. - City government health clinics for easy referral and access (Boston actually has a somewhat comparable model to this, I'm sure others do too, but listing it because it feels like a college thing) Let's go with those three for now. The questions: How many people would live here? What percentage local tax would they accept to fund this? I think this is actually a really interesting road to go down.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    >City created dining halls in every neighborhood within a 10 minute walk where one pays a reasonable rate to eat there. Why would the city do this? It sounds like you're describing the Golden Corral. In any case, if you can demonstrate that people will regularly show up to an open-plan cafeteria to socialize then let's forget about changing local government (which is corrupt and inefficient) and start this restaurant ourselves.
    - adjkant 8y ago
      Eh I'm not saying it's perfect but I think a few pieces are missing from your version: - The government subsidized price to make it a low enough cost because it's certainly can't be as expensive as a golden corral - The incentive for a private restaurateur to want to open one of these This is where the government can actually help make something, which could be funded by a reasonably modest tax if people were willing to pay it. > changing local government (which is corrupt and inefficient) All the more reason to work to change it IMO. I bet part of the reason it gets corrupt so easily is because few actually care given how little it really does for them (when the essentials like trash are on autopilot and many other issues don't affect the average resident that directly). While not without its risks and complications, a more involved local government can also mean a more politically aware and involved base of citizens. If a city actually did all these things, local policy changes would actually have a bigger effect that residents would care about. This is all a very rough draft, I'm sure there are plenty more holes in this. But I think it would be interesting to spend some more time ironing it out.
acd 8y ago
Block social media, people would look up from their cell phones. Block map sites, people would ask others for directions. Block movie streaming sites and people would get to the cinema more often. The thought is that technology replaces human interactions and that is not always good because it might lead to less people to people communication. Religious services also made people come together in the community but nowadays people are less religious.
- HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
  Block social media, people would look up from their cell phones. People were walking around looking at their cellphones before smartphones or social media took off. They were sending SMS messages. Or playing snake in monochrome. Or would you ban SMS as well? What about phone calls? Block map sites, people would ask others for directions. Chronically lonely people aren't going to get any meaningful fix asking strangers for directions. Block movie streaming sites and people would get to the cinema more often. Again, if you are lonely and have no friends, going to the cinema is just being in a room full of strangers. People go with their own groups. It's probably more alienating than just chilling out at home because it emphasizes your loneliness.
  - egypturnash 8y ago
    [insert vintage photograph of people riding the train, all with their nose buried in the daily paper or in a book]
- kanox 8y ago
  I'm not sure if you're serious but such measures sound more like what you would encounter in a cult than modern society.
- CM30 8y ago
  https://imgur.com/gallery/WkHHpZ1 https://imgur.com/gallery/WkHHpZ1 But seriously, even if you consider phones as more distracting than papers, well keep in mind that many people in cities just don't want to be talked to, especially not on their daily commute or what not. I mean, try striking up a conversation with someone on the Tube when in London. They'll probably look at you as if you're mad, and that's been the case for decades. Hell, they even tried that recently, and people weren't having any of it: https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/09/tube-chat-no-thanks-says-london/502247/ https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/09/tube-chat-no-thanks-say... Makes me wonder if large cities/groups in general kill conversations and people's interest in being social more than anything else.
forkLding 8y ago
More in-depth article on loneliness and impact on health, I can see loneliness having a direct impact in the future on people's health: https://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20180504/loneliness-rivals-obesity-smoking-as-health-risk https://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20180504/loneliness-rival...
kanox 8y ago
I have the exact opposite problem: it's too difficult to politely exclude myself from potential social situations. Seeing that some people consider "loneliness" as a problem to be fixed is a nightmare. I know I am very much part of the problem and I don't want to be fixed: I want to stay the fuck away from you.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Loneliness is a problem, it's just that too many people confused being alone with being lonely. Our language has wisely sensed these two sides of man’s being alone. It has created the word "loneliness" to express the pain of being alone. And it has created the word "solitude" to express the glory of being alone. (...) We are alone, perhaps in the midst of multitudes, but we are not lonely. Solitude protects us without isolating us. But life calls us back to its empty talk and the unavoidable demands of daily routine. It calls us back to its loneliness and the cover that it, in turn, spreads over our loneliness. -- Paul Tillich, "The Eternal Now"
- pantalaimon 8y ago
  Just wait a few years until you are older, there will be hardly any social situations where you are invited anymore.
INTPenis 8y ago
Pretty stupid article imo. City planning has little to do with loneliness. If a city council wants to combat loneliness they should provide its citizens with public spaces where they can organize non-profit meetups for free. That's what we have where I live. Meetups.com is full of stuff from just social gatherings to nerdy stuff like programming and linguistics. It's great for new arrivals who have no contacts yet. With those facilities in place, the only thing feeding your loneliness is yourself. Edit: Misspelled the domain but you can figure it out yourselves so I'm not guilty of plugging a service.
- ruytlm 8y ago
  >City planning has little to do with loneliness. >If a city council wants to combat loneliness they should provide its citizens with public spaces where they can organize non-profit meetups for free. For those spaces to be provided, they need to be incorporated into the council's city/urban planning.
  - INTPenis 8y ago
    But that has nothing to do with design. This article is about design concepts. A city merely has to earmark or promote the use of locations as public spaces. The design has little to do with it. Yes it is city planning but it's not designing.
    - ruytlm 8y ago
      Form and function here are fundamentally interrelated. How you design your public spaces affects how effectively they can be used. A good public space should not only be well planned, but also appealingly designed, in order to attract users. Consider a library. If designed well, it can use its street frontage to give views in through windows to show activities taking place, and make it clear to passers-by that they are welcome to come in and use the space. If designed poorly, it could have a sheer concrete street frontage with no views inside, that obscures what the space can be used for, or even what spaces may exist inside.
MrTonyD 8y ago
Over the years I've sometimes found groups arranging drop-in tennis or drop-in ping-pong. I made friends there, and it was a major part of my life. But none of those ever seem to last for more than a couple of years. Whoever controls the tennis courts eventually bans the group or intentionally schedules other things at their regular time. They always tend to view somebody scheduling things on "their courts" as an intrusion. The ping-pong meets a similar fate, especially since it is already hard to find places with more than one table, so as more people start to show up the drop-ins are told that they are no longer welcome. Private clubs are the same way - they monetize their resources, so they don't want "bursts" of activity that would inconvenience the regular flow of resource availability. I know this from experience (I've belonged to probably a dozen tennis clubs over the years.)
MrTonyD 8y ago
I think people have forgotten about all the things learned from cohousing. I once lived in a condo complex originally designed to be cohousing and I knew lots and lots of my neighbors. Shared parking with a common path and kitchens facing the path with gardening areas goes a long way. Add in the shared common areas which were designed to force everybody to pass by, and it was routine to meet and get to know neighbors. (Then there are all the Christoper Alexander ideas that could be tried too.)
- briandear 8y ago
  I would hate that. Being forced to be social isn’t my idea of fun. I want to choose who I socialize with not have it foisted upon me. You can pick your friends, but rarely your neighbors. I am as social as I want to be. If people are lonely, that’s on them.
  - MrTonyD 8y ago
    It is a design that means you pass your neighbors more often. But it is like walking down the street in New York, you don't have to be friendly or have long conversations - it is enough to say "good morning". But such design allows more interaction by those who desire it.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    If you don't want to live in a society than you should be the one to leave.
    - MrTonyD 8y ago
      I think you're being a bit harsh on the guy. I'd like to see a society that embraces as many people as possible. It should be possible to support both hyper-social and anti-social types - as long as they are willing to encourage a society that embraces those who are different.
      - nf05papsjfVbc 8y ago
factsaresacred 8y ago
> “sensory experience cabins”. Wut? Just move life (back) to the streets. Loosen regulation of street food, introduce outdoor stalls where you're encouraged to eat with strangers by design, grant licences to allow places stay open later and pedestrianize all the things. Try spending time in Bangkok or Ho Chi Minh city/Saigon and feeling lonely. It's near impossible. Day and night is a sea of mostly friendly humanity because life is primarily lived outdoors. Sadly, in the West we've made this abnormal (although the climate doesn't help). Our real-life is atomised. There is no third place†. And the online world we retreat to is increasingly drenched in pointless conflict. Kinda bleak. Lawrence Osborne puts it nicely: > Anyway, I think that’s one of the attractions of Bangkok. It’s not just f—king. It’s just the fact that you’re in contact with other people...the street makes you feel like you’re back in the human race, and alive again. Last night I went for the first time to the store called Whole Foods in Union Square. And there was this enormous line and it was like 1984. Every line was being called out by number in this soft automated female voice. It felt like being squeezed through a tube of toothpaste. It was so horrifyingly anonymous. And I was standing in this line thinking, I don’t like this. I wish I could be back in Bangkok and be treated like a human being. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
Simulacra 8y ago
Japan could do with reducing the salary man hour requirements. Give people the time to make friends!!
- mikekchar 8y ago
  The family oriented people would go home and spend time with their families, but the non-family oriented people would go back to work -- that's where their friends are. Which would cause the family oriented people to go back to work because they don't want to miss out on the work opportunities. And you're back where you started. Japanese culture is very different. All through their life Japanese people are part of a group and identify with that group. You are in a particular home room at school and they try not to mix change the home rooms all through junior high school and high school. You are a member of a single club all the way through junior high school and then a single club all the way through high school (and possibly a single club in University if you decide to join a club). When Japanese people get a professional job, they all start on the same day -- The first Monday of April after they graduate from university. Professionals never change companies. They work for the same company for the rest of their life. They work with the same people for the rest of their life. The western media portrays the Japanese salary man as being lonely, but I don't think this is generally the case. If you don't fit into your group you are going to be lonely because you won't get another one. That's why there are some super lonely people. However, the majority of people are not lonely and have lots and lots of friends at work. It's just completely different than how it works in the west.
  - ttty 8y ago
    I wonder what is their salary if they stay in the same company forever. 1% increase early? This would make the job market really low paying.
    - mikekchar 8y ago
      It's really complicated. Basically salaries are quite low in comparison to many other countries. However, there is a "bonus" which is usually paid 3 or 4 times a year. Different companies have different schemes, but often the salary is based on position and the bonus is based on position and seniority. The overall compensation is lower than the US probably, but higher than many European companies. There are cost of living increases, but you don't generally get a raise without a change in position. However, there are some other things that are important to realise. Generally the company looks after you for your entire life. When you retire, they will give you a lump sum retirement amount. I work for my own company in Japan and my accountant was very quick to point out the need for the company to save for my retirement. Additionally, you often get other "perks". For example, my wife's uncle lives in a house that used to be on land owned by the company he worked for. They sold him some land so he could build a house close to work. They even sold him some extra land so that he could have a garden (in a different location) -- and he made a tidy profit on that when we got too old to garden any more. This kind of thing (maybe not exactly, but similar) was expected before 1998. It's falling out of fashion these days, but for "permanent employees" (not on yearly contracts) it's still the norm. The total compensation package is quite good in most companies, I think. Of course, there is a lot of competition to get into the best companies and once you are in, there is a sense that you've "made it". It's extremely difficult to get fired from a permanent position and companies will rather pay you a salary to do nothing rather than to fire you if things really don't work out. So, there is a lot of give and take. On the other hand, don't quit your job! Anybody who sees you were stupid enough to give up a permanent placement somewhere will not be interested in hiring you -- you'll be stuck on contract positions (and much less security) for your whole life. One of the things that westerners have difficulty with when comparing their situation with the situation in Japan (and probably some other SE Asian countries like Korea, though I have no direct experience with that) is that the companies treat their workers completely differently. In the west, there is no loyalty to workers. In Japan, anyway, the company is completely responsible for their workers' well being. It even enters into what would be considered private matters in the west like if you are overweight the company will feel compelled to do something about it because in the long term it's bad. Even for things like being single -- the company usually doesn't like it and will help you find someone to marry if you are having trouble in that department. It's just such a totally different experience that you can't compare it. On a personal note, I worked on contract for a school division in Japan and even though I was on contract, the school looked after me. I needed surgery and for some bureaucratic reason the hospital needed someone to co-sign a loan guarantee in case something went wrong. The school took care of it. The principal was also worried that at the time I was over 40 and not married and assigned the school nurse to lecture me about the dangers of not getting my personal life in order (and even arranged for me to attend some gokon -- parties where you meet people who are interested in getting married... though I explained to them that my girlfriend wouldn't like it if I went :-) ). My case is pretty weird for a foreigner on contract, but for whatever reason the school decided to treat me like an employee. Anyway, I'm kind of droning on and you may not be interested in all of this. I'm sure a lot of it is really weird to you and you may be thinking, "I wouldn't want that!", but I guess the point is that it's really hard to compare the situations. It's just so different here for full time employees. For someone like me, it works well because I tend to bury myself in work (which I enjoy) and I need someone to look out for me. That's probably why the school decided to take on that role. I'm bad at negotiating contracts and I like it when the opposite side takes a moral position to look out for my interests. It would be almost impossible to negotiate as good a position as you might get in the west, but it's also really difficult to get into as bad a position (as long as you are a permanent employee with a reputable company). As time goes by, this situation has gone from expected for almost every worker, to only being common for professionals. It's slowly moving towards the same situation as in the west and I, for one, feel a lot is being lost along the way. It's funny because since I own my own consulting company now, I insist that I treat myself well. However, the expense of that is actually quite high and you would not believe how low my salary is :-)
mothsonasloth 8y ago
When I moved to London from Scotland I immediately felt more isolated than before. I put it down to there being more people and more stress meaning a polite hello on bus or in a coffee shop is interpreted more as a hostile act. After 3 years in London I decided to move back up north, sure my pay is not as great but I relish the moments when I can talk with a commuter or fellow patron in the local pub.
jniedrauer 8y ago
As an adult, I've only really ever had an active social life for one short period where I was barely surviving as a retail wage slave. My coworkers were all in the same situation, but we found solace in our shared misery, and I made a lot of really good friends. As a programmer, I sometimes make friends with my coworkers, but it's a very sanitized sort of interaction. Genuine exchanges of ideas is a dangerous proposition when it means risking our livelihood. The only place where I can freely exchange conversation with strangers is, ironically, on wild backcountry trails. Out there, information is very important. How much snow is there on the ridgeline? Where is the next water source? Any good campsites? And so on. I've come to believe over the years that friendship can essentially be distilled down to proximity + a common interest + time. Unfortunately, we spend most of our time working, and these three things are very difficult to find outside of the workplace.
- richforrester 8y ago
  This is a problem with how employment works, more than anything. I've always "hung out" with colleagues after work hours. Because we're all in the same boat, and have more in common with each-other than anyone else, because we spend 40+ hours a week in the same room. It's a failure of HR and management, imo, when that doesn't happen. And it can be increasingly hard to fix.
  - k__ 8y ago
    I stopped doing employment because I don't have much interest in most people. At work I had to hang around some random guys for 40h a week and I just couldn't stand it. Now I'm a freelancer and work remote, so I can minimize the non-work related communication with co-workers. I have a few friends and go to parties two times a month and host my own meetup one time a month.
    - richforrester 8y ago
      Glad you're able to work like that. A lot of people aren't though. For them, there needs to be a different solution.
    - 8y ago
buboard 8y ago
Make cities dysfunctional. Make things difficult, and hard to work out. Make the doors stuck , so that people have to ask strangers for help to open them . Write code with bad comments , so people have to ask each other what it means. Asking for small favors makes people more likeable to each other (Ben franklin effect). activities like cooking and tending and garden are great ways to engage with others fluidly, the problem is how you get people to do these activities in the first place without self-selection.
frankturtle 8y ago
I saw this thread and made a youtube video about it: https://youtu.be/GtqnQcDT9dQ https://youtu.be/GtqnQcDT9dQ
alan_wade 8y ago
For me, practicing pick up was an amazing way to find friends and develop new relationships. After watching a bunch of RSD videos I started regularly going out to clubs and approaching girls. As a nerdy and socially awkward guy I didn't end up being a very successful "pick up artist" in terms of getting laid a lot, but I've met some amazing women who ended up introducing me to their friend groups, and that helped me to meet a lot of really cool people and find friends. Besides, RSD community itself has local meetup groups, so you can find wingman buddies to go out with, and I've met a few great guy friends that way, I know pick up community gets a horrible reputation in modern culture, but the people I met were really smart, cool, and were, like me, into personal development and practicing social skills. If you can look past the stigma, pick up is an amazing way to meet new people proactively, it's challenging (approaching new people is scary), but fun, free, can be done at any time, and the results depend on how much you practice. I highly recommend it. Also, I have found a local Go club, and found many awesome people there. It's a fun relaxing game, community is friendly, and it's natural to have conversations and form friendships there.
- afarrell 8y ago
  Do you have any tips for finding local pickup groups where the reputation is undeserved? that is, how can I find groups which avoid the misogyny I’ve seen in many online pickup groups and where they’re focused on the skills to start and build mutually satisfying enthusiastically consensual interactions? I ask partly because I’ve long wanted to learn to be a wingman, partly to nerd out about the study of social skills, and partly because my wife and I happen to have built ourselves a social circle with a couple of women who have talked to us about the frustrations of dating and it would be nice to help them find someone.
  - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
    I don’t think you are doing women any favors by introducing them to these people.
    - afarrell 8y ago
viburnum 8y ago
Medium density seems to cultivate human connections the best (close enough to be near people, not so close as to need to protect your privacy). Basically walkable townhomes density. https://www.fastcompany.com/3021478/how-urban-design-influences-how-many-friends-you-have https://www.fastcompany.com/3021478/how-urban-design-influen...
snvzz 8y ago
An introvert's nightmare. I do hope this goes nowhere. I like my personal space, and peace. That's why I chose to live in a city in the first place.
- brokenmachine 8y ago
  >I like my personal space, and peace. That's why I chose to live in a city in the first place. wut
  - snvzz 8y ago
    Yes, seriously. Less populated places tend to be less individualistic.
    - brokenmachine 8y ago
      The pseudonymity that comes as a result of being part of a flock is not my idea of personal space and peace.
      - snvzz 8y ago
        It is mine. Way more unlikely that somebody'll interrupt my thoughts to talk to me.
        brokenmachine 8y ago
        Possibly, but much more likely to be near somebody at all.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sudosteph 8y ago
This probably doesn't scale up as nicely for density, but one aspect of my home town that I think was a strong anti-loneliness feature was the frequent presence of inviting front porch spaces and a culture of waving at people as you pass them by. It is nice to acknowledge each other in a positive way and you can strike up a convo if you're in the mood. There is a particular old man near my town who lives on a busyish road and literally sits on his porch all day and waves at each car that passes by. He himself said he started doing it because he was lonely, and members of community have said in interviews how they will go out of their way to drive past and greet him because that 1-1 genuine human interaction is sometimes the only one they get too.
- andrewem 8y ago
  That's great. It's only a shame that instead of driving by people don't walk or bicycle by, because that would allow for easier stopping and deeper interactions. Perhaps there are changes to the street design which would facilitate that, while preserving the car movement.
ajcodez 8y ago
It’s a lovely idea to design spaces for interaction, but I think there could be something said for quiet and privacy too. We probably need a balance. I believe loneliness is an epidemic. I felt lonely recently for the first time. I’m mid 20s and in a relationship, lots of friends in my city, many in walking distance, but even so a few months ago I felt intensely lonely. I can’t imagine what it must be like for someone who moved cities. What worked for me is writing down a list of people I want to see more and then reaching out and planning activities. I find if I have one date night and see one friend a week it’s enough to keep me going and feel good. More is better of course.
gymshoes 8y ago
In the locality where I lived, families had been living for years in the same house as they own the houses. Everybody in the neighbourhood knew each other. Now most of those families have sold off their homes and they were turned into apartments by the builders. Now people don't even know the people who live in the floor above theirs.
squish78 8y ago
Here's my unpopular opinion, and I'm making some assumptions for the sake of discussion. For most of the history of civilization, people would stay in the same place, with their extended family and interact with the community through a church, temple, market, etc. In the past 100 or so years, 2 things have happened. 1. Career and capital have become prime directive for most people, supplanting family, community, church, etc 2. Transportation is cheap and easy to move away from the few acres you lived in your whole life. Note that I'm not saying that there is any greater virtue or value to any way of life, and the modern world is certainly more comfortable. But we evolved for millennia in these small (overwhelmingly rural) community units and perhaps our minds still crave that.
brokenmachine 8y ago
Nothing against lonely people, but personally I would prefer my city designed so I have as little interaction with strangers as possible. I meet enough people when I'm doing my hobbies/sports, and they are people with whom I share a common interest. There's not enough personal space in the City as it is. I don't want to have a thousand meaningless interactions with strangers forced upon me when I'm trying to just get from home to work or whatever.

156 points by wallflower 8y ago

This assumes that loneliness is from inablity to meet ppl. Ins't loneliness the inablity to connect ppl on genuine level. Meeting ppl problem is already solved by meetup.com

wenc 8y ago
I think loneliness is the inability to meet people with whom you can have a connection with. And the design of spaces can help or hinder that. The deepest sources of connection come from shared adversity, shared goals/interest or shared stage of life. To meet people with these qualities, you have to first congregate them in time and space, and then give them opportunities for repeated exposure to each other [1]. (studies have shown that repeated exposure creates the necessary conditions for building rapport -- humans by default are evolutionarily guarded against unfamiliarity i.e. strangers, and repeated exposure lowers that guardedness) That's why parents at a playground are able to, if they desire, connect with someone and to potentially grow that connection. They have shared adversity, shared goals/interests, shared stage of life and repeated exposure. I have personally experienced how bad building designs hinder connection. At my workplace, the cubicles are high and large pillars block views, essentially creating a maze-like layout. One can walk directly to one's cubicle each morning without saying "good morning" to anyone on the way. My entire whole floor is oddly cold and introverted, and no one takes notice of what anyone else is doing. Most days folks don't even know if a co-worker is at his/her desk. In theory one can walk up to each person and say "hi", but it's weird and awkward, and people tend not to do it. Whereas in my old workplace, the layout was much more conducive to nonchalant interactions, and we were much closer as colleagues and shared many funny and interesting conversations -- not everyone did of course -- but appreciably more did than at my current workplace. Having a bunch of co-workers that you're friendly with can immensely improve your mood throughout the day. [1] I go to a lot of Meetup groups. Most are extraordinarily bad when it comes to repeated exposure, because in a big city, there isn't a common core group that consistently shows up -- it's different people every time, and it's hard to form community when your population is always in flux.
- sidibe 8y ago
  When I was younger being in the same neighborhood was the main way to make close friends. This wasn't just for kids, it seemed like my parents' close friends also tended to be neighbors. Now it seems like people's friends are more far-flung (as in 15 minute drive radius vs walking distance), and people who aren't able to maintain those kinds of connections as well also don't get the automatic friend opportunity of neighbors because their neighbors' social lives aren't as local. I think the internet and especially cell phones contributed to this by allowing some people to maintain friendships easier with people further away. Don't know if that's generally true or just nostalgia + what I've seen.
cylinder 8y ago
And lack of time to do anything. Nobody has time or energy to do social activities during the week after work. One weekend day lost to household errands and maintenance leaves one day of rest and socializing. Obviously family and long time friends prioritised above newcomers.
- dominotw 8y ago
  > family and long time friends prioritised this is a good problem to have for ppl being referred to this topic :D
watwut 8y ago
It is more lack of people one would meet regularly. You don't need perfect match, just passable-to-no match can develop into friendship over time. However, if there is no stabilit in who you meet, friendship wont happen even with great people around - it will remain shallow.

newman8r 8y ago

One interesting thing I noticed when I was living in the middle of nowhere on a 5 acre parcel: I knew all of my neighbors. I'd encounter them on a regular basis and would have meaningful conversations with them. People would help out when needed, I had all their emails and phone numbers. When I'm living in the suburbs or in a big city, meaningful contact with neighbors is fairly nonexistent.

kasey_junk 8y ago
Great. One of the things I noticed when living in the country is I had virtually no interaction with my neighbors. Now in the city I interact with my neighbors all the time (maybe to the point of irritation). Perhaps the difference in our experience is explained by small sample size & not systematic differences...
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  There is a threshold beyond which you have to know your neighbors in order to survive. Some of my earliest memories are riding my neighbor's snowmobile down the side of a mountain with my parents to buy groceries. Obviously this is not a situation which most rural dwellers will find themselves in.
- newman8r 8y ago
  yeah it probably goes beyond rural vs city living. In my situation, it was mutually beneficial to have good relationships with the neighbors because police and emergency services were 30 minutes away at best. Also I was in the desert and the population density was ~4-5 people per square mile - how does that compare to where you were living?

sideshowb 8y ago

Shameless self plug, but relevant: a few years ago I did a test of the association between spatial layout and community cohesion which came back positive for a number of network analysis measures on two different data sets. https://ij-healthgeographics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-072X-13-11 https://ij-healthgeographics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1... tldr (refined and simplified with a few years hindsight): more walkable neighbourhoods = better

jniedrauer 8y ago
What are your thoughts on cities which outlaw cars entirely?
- sideshowb 8y ago
  My (non researched) opinion on this one is that most westerners find cars useful, hence car free development risks creating a district populated only by people who can't afford cars. Segregating people in that way that is going to cause other problems, it happened before in the uk when planners decided it was a great idea to knock down aging buildings and replace with tower blocks of cheap flats. That said I do think we need to challenge our assumptions about the role cars play in society. It is assumed that highways are for cars primarily and this needs to be reined in somewhat. Car free development might work in places where there is already a sizable wealthy demographic choosing to live car free e.g. London. As to whole cities going car free, are there any? Not something I've looked into, would be interested to know.
  - luckydata 8y ago
    Has nothing to do with wealth and everything with zoning laws. If there's mixed use, enough density to justify good public transport then cities without cars thrive (just like they did before cars were invented). Your "observation" outs you as someone that spent most of his life in the US where most cities were designed around cars. US cities are awful, by the way. Imagine this: a bunch of folks come to a completely unexploited continent, rape and pillage until they ran out of land and then proceeded to create one of the most unhealthy societies ever. It's easy to be economically successful when there's tons of resources and nobody to share them with, the true measure of a society it's how most of their people live: without public healthcare, no welfare protections, lonely, stressed out, sicker than their european counterparts.

joe_the_user 8y ago

Okay, I have hosted adult Dungeons and Dragons games for many years, a pursuit that's as close to individuals common together again loneliness as one gets. Trying to find areas for small groups to use for this and other things peaked my interest in the organization of cities to encourage or discourage individuals coming together. Effectively, I think the structure of American cities have always been designed fundamentally to decrease togetherness outside of churches and hence today increase loneliness. The basic principle since the puritan arrived has been that an idle people gathered together were a danger. Hence laws against vagrancy and idleness, the non-existence of anything like the promenades of European cities, the prohibition of alcohol and later marijuana and so-forth. The Occupy movement of several years ago, for a further example, was ended merely by enforcing all of the existing against camping, loitering, disorderly conduct and so-forth [1]. Today, rent is so high and homelessness so prevalent that any location that allows people to mill about freely is going entice homeless to sleep and hence will attract repression. There are locations calling themselves "community centers". They only rent their common rooms for $25/hour or more, an amount that makes it impossible for most informal, average individual to afford. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorderly_conduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorderly_conduct

Baeocystin 8y ago
Not that I disagree with your general idea, just posting as an FYI to folks in the area: I live in Gilroy (small town south of San Jose), and our local library has several meeting rooms that are available for public use. You do have to reserve them, but the fee is a flat $25, not per hour, and they're clean, well lit, have internet, all that good stuff. Many libraries have similar.
- luckydata 8y ago
  It's cheap but there's still a fee. There's a fee on anything around here. I'm a European and I'm really bummed by how lonely and transactional our cities in California are. Want to do something social? 99% is going to be revolving around food because restaurants are the only option. The Mayor of Union city recently denied the license to a bar downtown because "we don't want that type of entertainment around here", "that type" meaning ANY entertainment that's not 30-50 minutes sitting in a restaurant then maybe movies, then go the hell back home because there's nothing to do in the East Bay.

crimsonalucard 8y ago

IMO it's not the issue of the city. It's the issue of the living space. Humans were originally hunter-gatherers that lived in tight knit tribal communities with intimate shared spaces. Any living style that deviates from this will induce loneliness. To eliminate loneliness you must form tribes. To form tribes you must produce settings that promote tribal gatherings. In essence this means intimate shared living spaces with medium sized groups of people. The keyword is "medium-sized" humans are not use to living with huge urban shared spaces where the people you see on the street everyday are different.

briandear 8y ago
I prefer lonely than forced interactions upon which I have no choice but to depend on for survival.
- crimsonalucard 8y ago
  Gotta choose the right tribe. Bonds are usually formed through forced interactions. You have some choice but it's limited. Few people have the power to be friends with anyone they want. I wish i could be friends with Bill Gates or Elon Musk, unfortunately it's outside of my abilities.

InGodsName 8y ago

One way is: Loneliness is solved by solving the inequality issue. If others have fancy cars and silk suits. How can a poor person fit in? If we make everyone equal by taking wealth from Rich and giving it to the poors, we solve loneliness.

wenc 8y ago
Some people who are in financial poverty have more community than more well-to-do people. I live close to a refugee/immigrant neighborhood and despite their fears and worries, many are more connected to their families, friends and neighbors than I am. They seem to have more celebrations and get-togethers than I do with my friends. I regularly eat at restaurants there, and there's a warmth even for strangers like me that I don't experience in higher end places. On the other hand, there's palpable loneliness among transplants to relatively affluent places like Minnesota, where despite surface politeness, is a society that is very insular and does not (and does not know how to) integrate outsiders. Culture has something to do with it?
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  It's not culture, it's inequality. For example, statistics from dating sites show how most people don't exclude potential partners based on ethnicity, nationality, religion, line of work etc but big differences in wealth is the line that people won't cross. The same goes for socialization and architecture is affected by it: gated communities, single-family houses, gentrification, and so on. The word "exclusive", used in real estate, is telling. All of this is meant to allow people that belong to the same social circles/companies/church to socialize and prevent mingling with people from other walks of life.
  - wenc 8y ago
    I believe I understand what you're saying. I'm curious though, how would that correlate with loneliness? Loneliness arises from the gap between one's desired connections vs one's actual connections. It is true that social class is a barrier and less mixing leads to less dynamism in society. This is a themed explored in Tyler Cowen's "The Complacent Class". But it seems to me that does not in itself produce loneliness, because there's still a tremendous number of connections made within the same social classes. My working class friends are the least lonely people I know. They seem to have tons of buddies and tend not to be that selective when it comes to making friends. But except in specific instances, they have no explicit desire to make connections across classes. I see inequality being a problem in general, but just not with respect to the specific topic of loneliness. It seems to me there's something else at play.

drivingmenuts 8y ago

Things must be very different in Australia. I can't even wrap my head around the concept of borrowing 2K from my neighbor or loaning him/her 2K. I can't believe that's a criteria for loneliness.

doubleunplussed 8y ago
I'm Australian and it would be pretty unusual. But maybe that's what the example is getting at. My close friends, I could probably borrow 2k from, but my neighbours are not my close friends.
CM30 8y ago
I can't believe it either. Heck, even most (all?) family members and friends would probably balk at the idea of lending 2K for whatever reason. Do most people's friends/families have the ability to just give out 2K in cash at the drop of a hat? Maybe yes if they're upper middle class or upper class and can just plonk thousands on a random whim, but I suspect someone making less than 40-50,000K a year would be hesitant, even more so if they're not super close.
- templenderthrow 8y ago
  I make less than 50k and I've lent ~20k to my brother within maybe 2 years. Probably a combination of trust and me having no real big commitments that require using my money for myself. I think I put away ~1.5k USD per month in savings, maybe a bit less or a bit more.

tfha 8y ago

I think a lot of colleges do a good job of fighting lonliness. Colleges have to worry about stressed students, overworked students, mental health issues, suicide rates, because parents pay a ton of attention to these things. As a result, I think a lot of elements of campus life are things that adults could borrow from to improve their own quality of life.

adjkant 8y ago
I'm curious what would happen if municipalities tried to become like universities: - City sponsored interest clubs (over 300 and it only takes 10 people and a sponsor to start one!!!) - City created dining halls in every neighborhood within a 10 minute walk where one pays a reasonable rate to eat there - heck even do a privatized model so cooks can consider creating one where they get subsidies per person, some sort of revenue split, and one of the only requirements being to have a "dining hall" style eating area that encourages social interaction. This could even be folded into food assistance programs where people can go and eat at these for a reduced price. - City government health clinics for easy referral and access (Boston actually has a somewhat comparable model to this, I'm sure others do too, but listing it because it feels like a college thing) Let's go with those three for now. The questions: How many people would live here? What percentage local tax would they accept to fund this? I think this is actually a really interesting road to go down.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  >City created dining halls in every neighborhood within a 10 minute walk where one pays a reasonable rate to eat there. Why would the city do this? It sounds like you're describing the Golden Corral. In any case, if you can demonstrate that people will regularly show up to an open-plan cafeteria to socialize then let's forget about changing local government (which is corrupt and inefficient) and start this restaurant ourselves.
  - adjkant 8y ago
    Eh I'm not saying it's perfect but I think a few pieces are missing from your version: - The government subsidized price to make it a low enough cost because it's certainly can't be as expensive as a golden corral - The incentive for a private restaurateur to want to open one of these This is where the government can actually help make something, which could be funded by a reasonably modest tax if people were willing to pay it. > changing local government (which is corrupt and inefficient) All the more reason to work to change it IMO. I bet part of the reason it gets corrupt so easily is because few actually care given how little it really does for them (when the essentials like trash are on autopilot and many other issues don't affect the average resident that directly). While not without its risks and complications, a more involved local government can also mean a more politically aware and involved base of citizens. If a city actually did all these things, local policy changes would actually have a bigger effect that residents would care about. This is all a very rough draft, I'm sure there are plenty more holes in this. But I think it would be interesting to spend some more time ironing it out.

acd 8y ago

Block social media, people would look up from their cell phones. Block map sites, people would ask others for directions. Block movie streaming sites and people would get to the cinema more often. The thought is that technology replaces human interactions and that is not always good because it might lead to less people to people communication. Religious services also made people come together in the community but nowadays people are less religious.

HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
Block social media, people would look up from their cell phones. People were walking around looking at their cellphones before smartphones or social media took off. They were sending SMS messages. Or playing snake in monochrome. Or would you ban SMS as well? What about phone calls? Block map sites, people would ask others for directions. Chronically lonely people aren't going to get any meaningful fix asking strangers for directions. Block movie streaming sites and people would get to the cinema more often. Again, if you are lonely and have no friends, going to the cinema is just being in a room full of strangers. People go with their own groups. It's probably more alienating than just chilling out at home because it emphasizes your loneliness.
- egypturnash 8y ago
  [insert vintage photograph of people riding the train, all with their nose buried in the daily paper or in a book]
kanox 8y ago
I'm not sure if you're serious but such measures sound more like what you would encounter in a cult than modern society.
CM30 8y ago
https://imgur.com/gallery/WkHHpZ1 https://imgur.com/gallery/WkHHpZ1 But seriously, even if you consider phones as more distracting than papers, well keep in mind that many people in cities just don't want to be talked to, especially not on their daily commute or what not. I mean, try striking up a conversation with someone on the Tube when in London. They'll probably look at you as if you're mad, and that's been the case for decades. Hell, they even tried that recently, and people weren't having any of it: https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/09/tube-chat-no-thanks-says-london/502247/ https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/09/tube-chat-no-thanks-say... Makes me wonder if large cities/groups in general kill conversations and people's interest in being social more than anything else.

forkLding 8y ago

More in-depth article on loneliness and impact on health, I can see loneliness having a direct impact in the future on people's health: https://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20180504/loneliness-rivals-obesity-smoking-as-health-risk https://www.webmd.com/balance/news/20180504/loneliness-rival...

kanox 8y ago

I have the exact opposite problem: it's too difficult to politely exclude myself from potential social situations. Seeing that some people consider "loneliness" as a problem to be fixed is a nightmare. I know I am very much part of the problem and I don't want to be fixed: I want to stay the fuck away from you.

icebraining 8y ago
Loneliness is a problem, it's just that too many people confused being alone with being lonely. Our language has wisely sensed these two sides of man’s being alone. It has created the word "loneliness" to express the pain of being alone. And it has created the word "solitude" to express the glory of being alone. (...) We are alone, perhaps in the midst of multitudes, but we are not lonely. Solitude protects us without isolating us. But life calls us back to its empty talk and the unavoidable demands of daily routine. It calls us back to its loneliness and the cover that it, in turn, spreads over our loneliness. -- Paul Tillich, "The Eternal Now"
pantalaimon 8y ago
Just wait a few years until you are older, there will be hardly any social situations where you are invited anymore.

INTPenis 8y ago

Pretty stupid article imo. City planning has little to do with loneliness. If a city council wants to combat loneliness they should provide its citizens with public spaces where they can organize non-profit meetups for free. That's what we have where I live. Meetups.com is full of stuff from just social gatherings to nerdy stuff like programming and linguistics. It's great for new arrivals who have no contacts yet. With those facilities in place, the only thing feeding your loneliness is yourself. Edit: Misspelled the domain but you can figure it out yourselves so I'm not guilty of plugging a service.

ruytlm 8y ago
>City planning has little to do with loneliness. >If a city council wants to combat loneliness they should provide its citizens with public spaces where they can organize non-profit meetups for free. For those spaces to be provided, they need to be incorporated into the council's city/urban planning.
- INTPenis 8y ago
  But that has nothing to do with design. This article is about design concepts. A city merely has to earmark or promote the use of locations as public spaces. The design has little to do with it. Yes it is city planning but it's not designing.
  - ruytlm 8y ago
    Form and function here are fundamentally interrelated. How you design your public spaces affects how effectively they can be used. A good public space should not only be well planned, but also appealingly designed, in order to attract users. Consider a library. If designed well, it can use its street frontage to give views in through windows to show activities taking place, and make it clear to passers-by that they are welcome to come in and use the space. If designed poorly, it could have a sheer concrete street frontage with no views inside, that obscures what the space can be used for, or even what spaces may exist inside.

MrTonyD 8y ago

Over the years I've sometimes found groups arranging drop-in tennis or drop-in ping-pong. I made friends there, and it was a major part of my life. But none of those ever seem to last for more than a couple of years. Whoever controls the tennis courts eventually bans the group or intentionally schedules other things at their regular time. They always tend to view somebody scheduling things on "their courts" as an intrusion. The ping-pong meets a similar fate, especially since it is already hard to find places with more than one table, so as more people start to show up the drop-ins are told that they are no longer welcome. Private clubs are the same way - they monetize their resources, so they don't want "bursts" of activity that would inconvenience the regular flow of resource availability. I know this from experience (I've belonged to probably a dozen tennis clubs over the years.)

MrTonyD 8y ago

I think people have forgotten about all the things learned from cohousing. I once lived in a condo complex originally designed to be cohousing and I knew lots and lots of my neighbors. Shared parking with a common path and kitchens facing the path with gardening areas goes a long way. Add in the shared common areas which were designed to force everybody to pass by, and it was routine to meet and get to know neighbors. (Then there are all the Christoper Alexander ideas that could be tried too.)

briandear 8y ago
I would hate that. Being forced to be social isn’t my idea of fun. I want to choose who I socialize with not have it foisted upon me. You can pick your friends, but rarely your neighbors. I am as social as I want to be. If people are lonely, that’s on them.
- MrTonyD 8y ago
  It is a design that means you pass your neighbors more often. But it is like walking down the street in New York, you don't have to be friendly or have long conversations - it is enough to say "good morning". But such design allows more interaction by those who desire it.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  If you don't want to live in a society than you should be the one to leave.
  - MrTonyD 8y ago
    I think you're being a bit harsh on the guy. I'd like to see a society that embraces as many people as possible. It should be possible to support both hyper-social and anti-social types - as long as they are willing to encourage a society that embraces those who are different.
    - nf05papsjfVbc 8y ago

factsaresacred 8y ago

> “sensory experience cabins”. Wut? Just move life (back) to the streets. Loosen regulation of street food, introduce outdoor stalls where you're encouraged to eat with strangers by design, grant licences to allow places stay open later and pedestrianize all the things. Try spending time in Bangkok or Ho Chi Minh city/Saigon and feeling lonely. It's near impossible. Day and night is a sea of mostly friendly humanity because life is primarily lived outdoors. Sadly, in the West we've made this abnormal (although the climate doesn't help). Our real-life is atomised. There is no third place†. And the online world we retreat to is increasingly drenched in pointless conflict. Kinda bleak. Lawrence Osborne puts it nicely: > Anyway, I think that’s one of the attractions of Bangkok. It’s not just f—king. It’s just the fact that you’re in contact with other people...the street makes you feel like you’re back in the human race, and alive again. Last night I went for the first time to the store called Whole Foods in Union Square. And there was this enormous line and it was like 1984. Every line was being called out by number in this soft automated female voice. It felt like being squeezed through a tube of toothpaste. It was so horrifyingly anonymous. And I was standing in this line thinking, I don’t like this. I wish I could be back in Bangkok and be treated like a human being. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

Simulacra 8y ago

Japan could do with reducing the salary man hour requirements. Give people the time to make friends!!

mikekchar 8y ago
The family oriented people would go home and spend time with their families, but the non-family oriented people would go back to work -- that's where their friends are. Which would cause the family oriented people to go back to work because they don't want to miss out on the work opportunities. And you're back where you started. Japanese culture is very different. All through their life Japanese people are part of a group and identify with that group. You are in a particular home room at school and they try not to mix change the home rooms all through junior high school and high school. You are a member of a single club all the way through junior high school and then a single club all the way through high school (and possibly a single club in University if you decide to join a club). When Japanese people get a professional job, they all start on the same day -- The first Monday of April after they graduate from university. Professionals never change companies. They work for the same company for the rest of their life. They work with the same people for the rest of their life. The western media portrays the Japanese salary man as being lonely, but I don't think this is generally the case. If you don't fit into your group you are going to be lonely because you won't get another one. That's why there are some super lonely people. However, the majority of people are not lonely and have lots and lots of friends at work. It's just completely different than how it works in the west.
- ttty 8y ago
  I wonder what is their salary if they stay in the same company forever. 1% increase early? This would make the job market really low paying.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    It's really complicated. Basically salaries are quite low in comparison to many other countries. However, there is a "bonus" which is usually paid 3 or 4 times a year. Different companies have different schemes, but often the salary is based on position and the bonus is based on position and seniority. The overall compensation is lower than the US probably, but higher than many European companies. There are cost of living increases, but you don't generally get a raise without a change in position. However, there are some other things that are important to realise. Generally the company looks after you for your entire life. When you retire, they will give you a lump sum retirement amount. I work for my own company in Japan and my accountant was very quick to point out the need for the company to save for my retirement. Additionally, you often get other "perks". For example, my wife's uncle lives in a house that used to be on land owned by the company he worked for. They sold him some land so he could build a house close to work. They even sold him some extra land so that he could have a garden (in a different location) -- and he made a tidy profit on that when we got too old to garden any more. This kind of thing (maybe not exactly, but similar) was expected before 1998. It's falling out of fashion these days, but for "permanent employees" (not on yearly contracts) it's still the norm. The total compensation package is quite good in most companies, I think. Of course, there is a lot of competition to get into the best companies and once you are in, there is a sense that you've "made it". It's extremely difficult to get fired from a permanent position and companies will rather pay you a salary to do nothing rather than to fire you if things really don't work out. So, there is a lot of give and take. On the other hand, don't quit your job! Anybody who sees you were stupid enough to give up a permanent placement somewhere will not be interested in hiring you -- you'll be stuck on contract positions (and much less security) for your whole life. One of the things that westerners have difficulty with when comparing their situation with the situation in Japan (and probably some other SE Asian countries like Korea, though I have no direct experience with that) is that the companies treat their workers completely differently. In the west, there is no loyalty to workers. In Japan, anyway, the company is completely responsible for their workers' well being. It even enters into what would be considered private matters in the west like if you are overweight the company will feel compelled to do something about it because in the long term it's bad. Even for things like being single -- the company usually doesn't like it and will help you find someone to marry if you are having trouble in that department. It's just such a totally different experience that you can't compare it. On a personal note, I worked on contract for a school division in Japan and even though I was on contract, the school looked after me. I needed surgery and for some bureaucratic reason the hospital needed someone to co-sign a loan guarantee in case something went wrong. The school took care of it. The principal was also worried that at the time I was over 40 and not married and assigned the school nurse to lecture me about the dangers of not getting my personal life in order (and even arranged for me to attend some gokon -- parties where you meet people who are interested in getting married... though I explained to them that my girlfriend wouldn't like it if I went :-) ). My case is pretty weird for a foreigner on contract, but for whatever reason the school decided to treat me like an employee. Anyway, I'm kind of droning on and you may not be interested in all of this. I'm sure a lot of it is really weird to you and you may be thinking, "I wouldn't want that!", but I guess the point is that it's really hard to compare the situations. It's just so different here for full time employees. For someone like me, it works well because I tend to bury myself in work (which I enjoy) and I need someone to look out for me. That's probably why the school decided to take on that role. I'm bad at negotiating contracts and I like it when the opposite side takes a moral position to look out for my interests. It would be almost impossible to negotiate as good a position as you might get in the west, but it's also really difficult to get into as bad a position (as long as you are a permanent employee with a reputable company). As time goes by, this situation has gone from expected for almost every worker, to only being common for professionals. It's slowly moving towards the same situation as in the west and I, for one, feel a lot is being lost along the way. It's funny because since I own my own consulting company now, I insist that I treat myself well. However, the expense of that is actually quite high and you would not believe how low my salary is :-)

mothsonasloth 8y ago

When I moved to London from Scotland I immediately felt more isolated than before. I put it down to there being more people and more stress meaning a polite hello on bus or in a coffee shop is interpreted more as a hostile act. After 3 years in London I decided to move back up north, sure my pay is not as great but I relish the moments when I can talk with a commuter or fellow patron in the local pub.

jniedrauer 8y ago

As an adult, I've only really ever had an active social life for one short period where I was barely surviving as a retail wage slave. My coworkers were all in the same situation, but we found solace in our shared misery, and I made a lot of really good friends. As a programmer, I sometimes make friends with my coworkers, but it's a very sanitized sort of interaction. Genuine exchanges of ideas is a dangerous proposition when it means risking our livelihood. The only place where I can freely exchange conversation with strangers is, ironically, on wild backcountry trails. Out there, information is very important. How much snow is there on the ridgeline? Where is the next water source? Any good campsites? And so on. I've come to believe over the years that friendship can essentially be distilled down to proximity + a common interest + time. Unfortunately, we spend most of our time working, and these three things are very difficult to find outside of the workplace.

richforrester 8y ago
This is a problem with how employment works, more than anything. I've always "hung out" with colleagues after work hours. Because we're all in the same boat, and have more in common with each-other than anyone else, because we spend 40+ hours a week in the same room. It's a failure of HR and management, imo, when that doesn't happen. And it can be increasingly hard to fix.
- k__ 8y ago
  I stopped doing employment because I don't have much interest in most people. At work I had to hang around some random guys for 40h a week and I just couldn't stand it. Now I'm a freelancer and work remote, so I can minimize the non-work related communication with co-workers. I have a few friends and go to parties two times a month and host my own meetup one time a month.
  - richforrester 8y ago
    Glad you're able to work like that. A lot of people aren't though. For them, there needs to be a different solution.
  - 8y ago

buboard 8y ago

Make cities dysfunctional. Make things difficult, and hard to work out. Make the doors stuck , so that people have to ask strangers for help to open them . Write code with bad comments , so people have to ask each other what it means. Asking for small favors makes people more likeable to each other (Ben franklin effect). activities like cooking and tending and garden are great ways to engage with others fluidly, the problem is how you get people to do these activities in the first place without self-selection.

frankturtle 8y ago

I saw this thread and made a youtube video about it: https://youtu.be/GtqnQcDT9dQ https://youtu.be/GtqnQcDT9dQ

alan_wade 8y ago

For me, practicing pick up was an amazing way to find friends and develop new relationships. After watching a bunch of RSD videos I started regularly going out to clubs and approaching girls. As a nerdy and socially awkward guy I didn't end up being a very successful "pick up artist" in terms of getting laid a lot, but I've met some amazing women who ended up introducing me to their friend groups, and that helped me to meet a lot of really cool people and find friends. Besides, RSD community itself has local meetup groups, so you can find wingman buddies to go out with, and I've met a few great guy friends that way, I know pick up community gets a horrible reputation in modern culture, but the people I met were really smart, cool, and were, like me, into personal development and practicing social skills. If you can look past the stigma, pick up is an amazing way to meet new people proactively, it's challenging (approaching new people is scary), but fun, free, can be done at any time, and the results depend on how much you practice. I highly recommend it. Also, I have found a local Go club, and found many awesome people there. It's a fun relaxing game, community is friendly, and it's natural to have conversations and form friendships there.

afarrell 8y ago
Do you have any tips for finding local pickup groups where the reputation is undeserved? that is, how can I find groups which avoid the misogyny I’ve seen in many online pickup groups and where they’re focused on the skills to start and build mutually satisfying enthusiastically consensual interactions? I ask partly because I’ve long wanted to learn to be a wingman, partly to nerd out about the study of social skills, and partly because my wife and I happen to have built ourselves a social circle with a couple of women who have talked to us about the frustrations of dating and it would be nice to help them find someone.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  I don’t think you are doing women any favors by introducing them to these people.
  - afarrell 8y ago

viburnum 8y ago

Medium density seems to cultivate human connections the best (close enough to be near people, not so close as to need to protect your privacy). Basically walkable townhomes density. https://www.fastcompany.com/3021478/how-urban-design-influences-how-many-friends-you-have https://www.fastcompany.com/3021478/how-urban-design-influen...

snvzz 8y ago

An introvert's nightmare. I do hope this goes nowhere. I like my personal space, and peace. That's why I chose to live in a city in the first place.

brokenmachine 8y ago
>I like my personal space, and peace. That's why I chose to live in a city in the first place. wut
- snvzz 8y ago
  Yes, seriously. Less populated places tend to be less individualistic.
  - brokenmachine 8y ago
    The pseudonymity that comes as a result of being part of a flock is not my idea of personal space and peace.
    - snvzz 8y ago
      It is mine. Way more unlikely that somebody'll interrupt my thoughts to talk to me.
      - brokenmachine 8y ago
        Possibly, but much more likely to be near somebody at all.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

sudosteph 8y ago

This probably doesn't scale up as nicely for density, but one aspect of my home town that I think was a strong anti-loneliness feature was the frequent presence of inviting front porch spaces and a culture of waving at people as you pass them by. It is nice to acknowledge each other in a positive way and you can strike up a convo if you're in the mood. There is a particular old man near my town who lives on a busyish road and literally sits on his porch all day and waves at each car that passes by. He himself said he started doing it because he was lonely, and members of community have said in interviews how they will go out of their way to drive past and greet him because that 1-1 genuine human interaction is sometimes the only one they get too.

andrewem 8y ago
That's great. It's only a shame that instead of driving by people don't walk or bicycle by, because that would allow for easier stopping and deeper interactions. Perhaps there are changes to the street design which would facilitate that, while preserving the car movement.

ajcodez 8y ago

It’s a lovely idea to design spaces for interaction, but I think there could be something said for quiet and privacy too. We probably need a balance. I believe loneliness is an epidemic. I felt lonely recently for the first time. I’m mid 20s and in a relationship, lots of friends in my city, many in walking distance, but even so a few months ago I felt intensely lonely. I can’t imagine what it must be like for someone who moved cities. What worked for me is writing down a list of people I want to see more and then reaching out and planning activities. I find if I have one date night and see one friend a week it’s enough to keep me going and feel good. More is better of course.

gymshoes 8y ago

In the locality where I lived, families had been living for years in the same house as they own the houses. Everybody in the neighbourhood knew each other. Now most of those families have sold off their homes and they were turned into apartments by the builders. Now people don't even know the people who live in the floor above theirs.

squish78 8y ago

Here's my unpopular opinion, and I'm making some assumptions for the sake of discussion. For most of the history of civilization, people would stay in the same place, with their extended family and interact with the community through a church, temple, market, etc. In the past 100 or so years, 2 things have happened. 1. Career and capital have become prime directive for most people, supplanting family, community, church, etc 2. Transportation is cheap and easy to move away from the few acres you lived in your whole life. Note that I'm not saying that there is any greater virtue or value to any way of life, and the modern world is certainly more comfortable. But we evolved for millennia in these small (overwhelmingly rural) community units and perhaps our minds still crave that.

brokenmachine 8y ago

Nothing against lonely people, but personally I would prefer my city designed so I have as little interaction with strangers as possible. I meet enough people when I'm doing my hobbies/sports, and they are people with whom I share a common interest. There's not enough personal space in the City as it is. I don't want to have a thousand meaningless interactions with strangers forced upon me when I'm trying to just get from home to work or whatever.