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The car market in its' totality has always struck me as being irrational. It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese c

The car market in its' totality has always struck me as being irrational. It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO. The same follows across the categories (e.g. the article's specific focus on sedans). A whole bunch of mid-market brands seemingly exist for no reason other than for some groups of not-wealthy people to waste money in an attempt to impress other groups of not-wealthy people. e.g. the German cars which seem to exist as some sort of indicator that someone can afford to burn money maintaining a depreciating asset. It's basically the (non-smart) watch market, right. You wear a Casio-level watch if you don't care, a Rolex-level watch if you're signalling, and other stuff is basically an enthusiast market.

rock_hard 8y ago
Well, this assumes that it’s all about TCO or status. But have you ever driven a Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or Audi? The driving expierence is superior to everything else! Tesla gets close...but I can’t think of any other brand that does.
- esotericn 8y ago
  Right, that's the enthusiast market.
- nickik 8y ago
  I bet that you could not pick a BMW or Audi from equally priced car from other companies.
  - Domenic_S 8y ago
    I didn't downvote you, but I bet I could [pick them out]. They just value different things compared to american counterparts, especially in older models. I (regrettably used to) own a 2002 BMW M3 -- relatively cheap to buy, and compared to anything else in its year or price category was unequivocally better as a "driver's car". But, many people don't really care about a driver's car -- they index higher on other things like electronics, safety, styling, etc. That's fine, it's only preference, but for raw performance nothing similar could compare. My experience is that a lot of people equate "expensive car" or "german car" with "nice car", and for them "nice car" means something specific other than raw performance numbers, like comfort, safety, features, or Consumer Reports ranking. For enthusiasts, it means something totally different, and those qualities are indexed on by BMW/Merc/Audi (and some rare American and Japanese exceptions to be fair).
- jszymborski 8y ago
  I think it's fair to say this falls under grandparent's "enthusiast" category. Nothing wrong with being an enthusiast, but I think the characterization as "irrational" is probably correct.
  - matthewmcg 8y ago
    The top level post was edited to add the line about enthusiasts after this was posted.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Few human decisions are rational if you start taking that approach. You can always live in a smaller dwelling, wear worse clothes, eat cheaper food, avoid all paid entertainment, etc. It would be better to state that the car market is not primarily based around the simple act of transportation. Which should be pretty obvious anyway.
    - exergy 8y ago
      > You can always live in a smaller dwelling, wear worse clothes, eat cheaper food, avoid all paid entertainment, etc. Indeed. And the more of these you can check, the happier and more satisfying your life is likely to get. Why maintain an unused mansion when a small, cozy place will do? Why follow the latest fashion trends when your four year old OCBD is in fighting form? Why eat lobsters all the time when beans are so nutrient-dense and cheap?! Why sit on your ass wasting away at the behest of a mediocre film when you could read a book instead? The other major difference, of course, is that there are few irrational decisions quite as expensive as buying an idiot pickup truck to show off. Maybe a boat or an aircraft, but not much more.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        Why have a small, cozy place when you could live in a van down by the river? Why buy clothes when you can drape yourselves in discarded blankets? Why eat beans when you can haunt the dumpsters behind the local restaurants?
- vinay427 8y ago
  BMW's recent models are mostly a joke in dynamics. See almost any review of many of their new models for further explanation. This unfortunately isn't 2010 anymore. Mercedes hasn't been kenown for driving dynamics, but perhaps their solidity is great. Porsche is absolutely renowned for the driving experience they provide. There are plenty that can match these in every class. If you only consider brands based on an overall perception, then sure, maybe not. The Cadillac ATS and Alfa Romeo Giulia are almost universally regarded as dynamically superior to their 3-series equivalents, for a common example.
  - amartya916 8y ago
    Completely agreed. Similarly, most cars in Jaguar's current portfolio have good Dynamics.
  - mav3rick 8y ago
    The Audis were better than any other Japanese car I test drove.
    - vinay427 8y ago
      That's quite reasonable, and I may agree depending on what exact cars you test drove, but that's a rather different statement than the one made in the comment I replied to.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      I would believe that for Acura or infinity, but Lexus?
    - jcims 8y ago
      S series yes (have an S5 and an SQ5). A series pretty much drive like a Toyota minus the reliability.
      - sk5t 8y ago
        Had a B8.5 S4, now a B9 A5 with sports suspension. The power/transmission leave a little something to be desired, but the A5 is otherwise a very nice ride, and not too wallowy for an Audi. I have also a much more powerful sports car for the weekend, but the A5 has its charms too.
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  > The driving experience is superior Driving experience only goes so far in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Those aren't cars that people "need". Most lux car owners will also have a "beater" car that they use for real life. Status is an important motivator and should not be dismissed.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    That’s no longer true with the driver assistance systems available now. Some cars provide a vastly superior driving experience in heavy traffic now.
  - compiler-guy 8y ago
    But people don't drive only in bumper-to-bumper traffic. That is the most common use, but nearly everyone has some open road time now and again.
- MoBattah 8y ago
  Driven Benz, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Tesla, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. No way in hell is a C-Class Benz worth it's price. Tesla drives way better and is much more fun. I think it's about TCO, status, reliability and maybe fun-factor. Nobody buys an Audi or Benz for 'fun-factor'. Especially not when they get AMG or i versions.
  - mprev 8y ago
    Nobody buys an AMG for fun?
    - hi5eyes 8y ago
      they mean the majority of people get them for the badging, AMG are definitely the most fun sonically but most people arent bothering with straight piping or any fun performance mods. its mainly a flex
- lostmsu 8y ago
  I had driven BMW 3s and Minis via ReachNow. Did not feel anything special vs my Honda, or any rental I had.
  - hi5eyes 8y ago
    none of those cars are supposed to feel anything special, the 3 series is the entry level scrap bmw puts out to get people onto the brand and the newer bmws are last among the germans mini, owned by bmw, is.. mini.. theyre the car parents get their daughters
- dreamcompiler 8y ago
  I love my Audi S4, but I find the Tesla Model S to be even more fun than my car. Unfortunately it's too expensive.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  Is that true in typical urban driving conditions of stop and go, or at least slow traffic? I think the only thing that would help make my driving experience better in this traffic would be radar cruise control that can handle stop/go traffic. I've found that the best driving experience in my commute conditions is a $500,000 bus because I can get some work done or relax so the length of the commute doesn't mattter so much.
matthewmcg 8y ago
It's bonkers if you take the narrow view that cars are strictly about transportation. But of course people desire and enjoy cars and trucks for all kinds of reasons--including aspirational signaling like you describe, but also the experience of driving or riding in them, or even just an appreciation of artful styling or impressive engineering. The sales trends observed in the article seem to be explained by a mass shifting of tastes.
- Domenic_S 8y ago
  I don't know about a taste shift -- as the article said, Corollas and Camrys and Civics have seen no such shift. I personally can't see any reason to take a chance on an (historically bad) American car, even with the "but we've changed!" story, when so much good stuff is available elsewhere.
drivingmenuts 8y ago
I know why I drive a Volkswagen - it fits. Every American car I have ever driven doesn't work for my 6'5 narrow frame (I'm also long-legged, short torso). There's also the tendency to load up the dash with every possible piece of information and turn the radio into some kind of Microsoft supercomputer. It's a car - it needs to get me reliably and comfortably from point A to point B with a minimum of distraction, look presentable and connect to my iPhone for music. The TCO on VWs, in my experience, is very low, mostly because they don't have complex add-ons that break constantly.
- bovermyer 8y ago
  Whenever my wife's Beetle breaks in any way, the repair cost is easily 5-10x what a comparable repair is for my Accord. She's had to do repairs on her car three times since she got it. I've had to do repairs on mine... zero. The cars have been in our possession for about the same time and are almost the same age. I daresay that the TCO on Volkswagens is higher than "very low."
  - tcoff91 8y ago
    Completely agreed. Unfortunately when you have to see the same mechanics who also work on Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, and BMW, you get reamed on the repairs. parts are expensive too.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    IF you do your own work VWs aren't too bad. Parts are more expensive, but not too much. However you have to know going in that only German car mechanics($$$) will have the tools to work on it, and they are the only ones who won't put in standard anti-freeze (or oil) which work on every other car but will break something in yours. Some would argue that the extra tools you have to buy is a factor, but you need special tools for every car anyway. So long as you know you need them it isn't a big deal.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      I think I can take apart a whole Toyota with an 8mm and 10mm socket wrench.
sunshinelackof 8y ago
> The car market in its' totality has always struck me as being irrational. Consumers aren't known for their rationality.
criddell 8y ago
> It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO. Is there some way to include the environmental cost as well? A 10 year old Honda Civic is going to cost less in that regard than a 10 year old BMW 318. But what about a 10 year old Prius?
- esotericn 8y ago
  Sure; taxation should be pricing in externalities. Buying a less polluting car that costs more is effectively a charitable donation. Most individuals don't make charitable donations of $1000+. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons Tesla are so great. It's fun to drive, so the extra cost isn't purely charitable.
tcoff91 8y ago
You are completely discounting the subjective experience of driving different cars. Some cars are just flat-out much more enjoyable to drive. When people are spending significant portions of their lives driving, getting more enjoyment or comfort out of that time matters to people. It's completely rational to want to enjoy your time driving a vehicle if you spend a lot of time in the car. Driving a chevy cobalt is just awful compared to driving a higher quality vehicle. You're also far more likely to be able to avoid an accident when you have better handling and more powerful brakes. Even horsepower/torque can be a safety feature for certain accident avoidance situations.
- MoBattah 8y ago
  Can easily get more comfort in a budget car by adding packages.
  - anyfoo 8y ago
    Comfort, maybe. Driving, hardly. I drive both a Ford Focus and a small sports car. While the Ford Focus, my usual commuter car, is not bad at all, I still take the sports car to work about once a week, and it just doesn't compare. In some ways, the Ford Focus is more "comfortable", but the control and precision that the sports car offers even when just cruising through normal traffic through the city is amazing. The Ford, again not a bad car, feels like "swimming" in comparison. This is, to some extent, similar in the difference between, say, driving a Chevy and driving a BMW. Subjectively, one just drives much better than the other one, and given how much time you are forced to spend in a car in the US, why would I not opt for a car that implements the driving aspect better?
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  I think esotericn is classifying that as the "enthusiast market". "More enjoyable to drive" matters, sure. But for most of us, it's not the primary driver of the buying decision - practicality is.
- dingaling 8y ago
  > Some cars are just flat-out much more enjoyable to drive. The counterpoint to that is Audi ( A4 in particular ); dreadfully unbalanced whale-like FWD with the engine hanging out over the front wheels. Objectively dynamically inferior to the humble Ford Mondeo. But sold in droves in spartan-spec because of badge cachet. They have recently started to tidy up their handling but still lag more humble brands.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
appleiigs 8y ago
Japanese cars annoy the heck out of me. I occasionally (forced to) drive a Toyota Venza. Here my issues: 1. low torque at low RPMs. 2. suspension is too soft. 3. it beeps at me constantly. Lock/unlock door, open door, start car, etc. 4. complicated (too many buttons) screens and radio. 5. doesn't allow me to do things I want: a) open door while in drive, b) turn off all my lights when i turn light switch to off, c) use certain screen functions when i drive. 6. hatch door doesn't open if battery is dead. I'm sure I'd have more if I actually owned the vehicle. The BMW I own doesn't treat me like an idiot.
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
  VW/Audi group also seems to be designing cars with the 'idiot' perspective now. Rented a 2018 Q5 earlier this year and had same issue with not being able to open door while in drive or reverse (which sucks for checking parking spaces). Our 2013 Q5 we own doesn't do this. My old Jetta liked to lock the doors the moment the ignition turned on, which meant my kids would reach for the door to enter and find it locked even though I just unlocked the doors. Things like that, highly irritating. Car controls should be predictable and easily accessed through muscle memory.
- crooked-v 8y ago
  > a) open door while in drive, b) turn off all my lights when i turn light switch to off, c) use certain screen functions when i drive As a fellow driver, I wish there were more cars on the road like this.
  - jmulho 8y ago
    I would argue that disabling screen functions while the car is moving is more of a safety hazard than not doing so. Unpredictable interfaces are distracting. Would you rather drive next to me while I reach over and adjust the bass on my car stereo or while I spend a few minutes screwing with my car stereo only to learn that I cannot adjust the bass while the car is moving? In many cars, I could simply ask my passenger to adjust the bass. But in my car I will need to pull over on the side of the freeway to adjust the bass and then merge back into traffic from a dead stop. It's a safety feature.
mturmon 8y ago
You think it's all about TCO vs. signaling. The trade space has a lot more dimensions, and you're getting a lot of pushback, especially about the "driving experience" dimension. I'd like to add "reliability" as another dimension that does not seem to have been mentioned yet. I just exited a beloved "old small Japanese car" (1998 Civic), partly because parts were starting to break down. Usually it was nuisance stuff, but it takes time to fix. The TCO of the old car was well less than (say) the payment on my new car, but I couldn't deal with the unpredictability and the lost time.
mtw 8y ago
> It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO. How so? It's trivial to get the average maintenance costs of a car based on model and year. It doesn't take an excel spreadsheet to conclude that something like a 2010 Toyota Corolla would have lowest TCO
MoBattah 8y ago
Thank you. What you describe is exactly what I've noticed after delving into the car world via rentals. If you're buying a sedan -- Toyota/Honda/Kia. If you own a BMW/Audi/Benz, you're not wealthy and you're just signalling to other non-wealthy individuals. It's interesting because most of the BMW/Audi/Benz look terrible and are way cheaper than most expect yet still a terrible, arrogant waste of capital. Only a few brands don't match this. Tesla and Range Rover. The former for obvious reasons. The latter because no comparable high-end SUV exists. If you bought a Ford/Chevy, you're asking for reliability issues.
- sjg007 8y ago
  Ford and Chevy are pretty reliable. BMWs are fun to drive. Porsches are a step above BMW in terms of fun factor.
- compiler-guy 8y ago
  "If you own a BMW/Audi/Benz, you're not wealthy and you're just signalling to other non-wealthy individuals." Err, the median income of a 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-class buyer was nearly $200,000 [1]. That qualifies as pretty high income. The numbers are similar for BMW and Audi. You can argue that they aren't "wealthy" (as this isn't a measure of net worth), but people with high incomes are more likely to be wealthy than people without. Someone making $200K a year certainly isn't the stereotypical person "faking being rich" you portray them as here. "Look terrible and are way cheaper": well, "look terrible" is all about personal taste. If it doesn't float your boat, then fine, but it apparently floats enough boats that the companies sell a lot of them. "Way cheaper" is almost objectively false. Most reviewers like the cabins of the luxury brands far more than they like the cabins of the non luxury. You may think they aren't worth the extra dollars, but when someone is wealthy, the marginal value of those extra dollars is lower. [1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/expert-reviews/powersteering-2017-mercedes-benz-e-class-review https://www.jdpower.com/cars/expert-reviews/powersteering-20...
  - MoBattah 8y ago
    $200k for a household is not high income by any measure. That sentence explains your entire perspective in your comment. E-Class = Poor people If you consider these cars expensive, that’s your problem.
gniv 8y ago
One point that I'm not seeing clearly articulated in this sub-thread: The US is widely rich. A lot of people can afford to buy things for status-signaling, no matter how silly you and I find it.
d1zzy 8y ago
You know, there are German cars that are priced competitively. When I went shopping for a new hatchback moving on from the 20 year old Hold Civic, I did look at Honda Civic, VW Golf and tons of other small hatchbacks and I ended up with the WV which wasn't even the most expensive choice.

rock_hard 8y ago

Well, this assumes that it’s all about TCO or status. But have you ever driven a Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or Audi? The driving expierence is superior to everything else! Tesla gets close...but I can’t think of any other brand that does.

esotericn 8y ago
Right, that's the enthusiast market.
nickik 8y ago
I bet that you could not pick a BMW or Audi from equally priced car from other companies.
- Domenic_S 8y ago
  I didn't downvote you, but I bet I could [pick them out]. They just value different things compared to american counterparts, especially in older models. I (regrettably used to) own a 2002 BMW M3 -- relatively cheap to buy, and compared to anything else in its year or price category was unequivocally better as a "driver's car". But, many people don't really care about a driver's car -- they index higher on other things like electronics, safety, styling, etc. That's fine, it's only preference, but for raw performance nothing similar could compare. My experience is that a lot of people equate "expensive car" or "german car" with "nice car", and for them "nice car" means something specific other than raw performance numbers, like comfort, safety, features, or Consumer Reports ranking. For enthusiasts, it means something totally different, and those qualities are indexed on by BMW/Merc/Audi (and some rare American and Japanese exceptions to be fair).
jszymborski 8y ago
I think it's fair to say this falls under grandparent's "enthusiast" category. Nothing wrong with being an enthusiast, but I think the characterization as "irrational" is probably correct.
- matthewmcg 8y ago
  The top level post was edited to add the line about enthusiasts after this was posted.
- mikeash 8y ago
  Few human decisions are rational if you start taking that approach. You can always live in a smaller dwelling, wear worse clothes, eat cheaper food, avoid all paid entertainment, etc. It would be better to state that the car market is not primarily based around the simple act of transportation. Which should be pretty obvious anyway.
  - exergy 8y ago
    > You can always live in a smaller dwelling, wear worse clothes, eat cheaper food, avoid all paid entertainment, etc. Indeed. And the more of these you can check, the happier and more satisfying your life is likely to get. Why maintain an unused mansion when a small, cozy place will do? Why follow the latest fashion trends when your four year old OCBD is in fighting form? Why eat lobsters all the time when beans are so nutrient-dense and cheap?! Why sit on your ass wasting away at the behest of a mediocre film when you could read a book instead? The other major difference, of course, is that there are few irrational decisions quite as expensive as buying an idiot pickup truck to show off. Maybe a boat or an aircraft, but not much more.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Why have a small, cozy place when you could live in a van down by the river? Why buy clothes when you can drape yourselves in discarded blankets? Why eat beans when you can haunt the dumpsters behind the local restaurants?
vinay427 8y ago
BMW's recent models are mostly a joke in dynamics. See almost any review of many of their new models for further explanation. This unfortunately isn't 2010 anymore. Mercedes hasn't been kenown for driving dynamics, but perhaps their solidity is great. Porsche is absolutely renowned for the driving experience they provide. There are plenty that can match these in every class. If you only consider brands based on an overall perception, then sure, maybe not. The Cadillac ATS and Alfa Romeo Giulia are almost universally regarded as dynamically superior to their 3-series equivalents, for a common example.
- amartya916 8y ago
  Completely agreed. Similarly, most cars in Jaguar's current portfolio have good Dynamics.
- mav3rick 8y ago
  The Audis were better than any other Japanese car I test drove.
  - vinay427 8y ago
    That's quite reasonable, and I may agree depending on what exact cars you test drove, but that's a rather different statement than the one made in the comment I replied to.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    I would believe that for Acura or infinity, but Lexus?
  - jcims 8y ago
    S series yes (have an S5 and an SQ5). A series pretty much drive like a Toyota minus the reliability.
    - sk5t 8y ago
      Had a B8.5 S4, now a B9 A5 with sports suspension. The power/transmission leave a little something to be desired, but the A5 is otherwise a very nice ride, and not too wallowy for an Audi. I have also a much more powerful sports car for the weekend, but the A5 has its charms too.
crispyambulance 8y ago
> The driving experience is superior Driving experience only goes so far in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Those aren't cars that people "need". Most lux car owners will also have a "beater" car that they use for real life. Status is an important motivator and should not be dismissed.
- mikeash 8y ago
  That’s no longer true with the driver assistance systems available now. Some cars provide a vastly superior driving experience in heavy traffic now.
- compiler-guy 8y ago
  But people don't drive only in bumper-to-bumper traffic. That is the most common use, but nearly everyone has some open road time now and again.
MoBattah 8y ago
Driven Benz, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Tesla, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. No way in hell is a C-Class Benz worth it's price. Tesla drives way better and is much more fun. I think it's about TCO, status, reliability and maybe fun-factor. Nobody buys an Audi or Benz for 'fun-factor'. Especially not when they get AMG or i versions.
- mprev 8y ago
  Nobody buys an AMG for fun?
  - hi5eyes 8y ago
    they mean the majority of people get them for the badging, AMG are definitely the most fun sonically but most people arent bothering with straight piping or any fun performance mods. its mainly a flex
lostmsu 8y ago
I had driven BMW 3s and Minis via ReachNow. Did not feel anything special vs my Honda, or any rental I had.
- hi5eyes 8y ago
  none of those cars are supposed to feel anything special, the 3 series is the entry level scrap bmw puts out to get people onto the brand and the newer bmws are last among the germans mini, owned by bmw, is.. mini.. theyre the car parents get their daughters
dreamcompiler 8y ago
I love my Audi S4, but I find the Tesla Model S to be even more fun than my car. Unfortunately it's too expensive.
Johnny555 8y ago
Is that true in typical urban driving conditions of stop and go, or at least slow traffic? I think the only thing that would help make my driving experience better in this traffic would be radar cruise control that can handle stop/go traffic. I've found that the best driving experience in my commute conditions is a $500,000 bus because I can get some work done or relax so the length of the commute doesn't mattter so much.

matthewmcg 8y ago

It's bonkers if you take the narrow view that cars are strictly about transportation. But of course people desire and enjoy cars and trucks for all kinds of reasons--including aspirational signaling like you describe, but also the experience of driving or riding in them, or even just an appreciation of artful styling or impressive engineering. The sales trends observed in the article seem to be explained by a mass shifting of tastes.

Domenic_S 8y ago
I don't know about a taste shift -- as the article said, Corollas and Camrys and Civics have seen no such shift. I personally can't see any reason to take a chance on an (historically bad) American car, even with the "but we've changed!" story, when so much good stuff is available elsewhere.

drivingmenuts 8y ago

I know why I drive a Volkswagen - it fits. Every American car I have ever driven doesn't work for my 6'5 narrow frame (I'm also long-legged, short torso). There's also the tendency to load up the dash with every possible piece of information and turn the radio into some kind of Microsoft supercomputer. It's a car - it needs to get me reliably and comfortably from point A to point B with a minimum of distraction, look presentable and connect to my iPhone for music. The TCO on VWs, in my experience, is very low, mostly because they don't have complex add-ons that break constantly.

bovermyer 8y ago
Whenever my wife's Beetle breaks in any way, the repair cost is easily 5-10x what a comparable repair is for my Accord. She's had to do repairs on her car three times since she got it. I've had to do repairs on mine... zero. The cars have been in our possession for about the same time and are almost the same age. I daresay that the TCO on Volkswagens is higher than "very low."
- tcoff91 8y ago
  Completely agreed. Unfortunately when you have to see the same mechanics who also work on Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, and BMW, you get reamed on the repairs. parts are expensive too.
- bluGill 8y ago
  IF you do your own work VWs aren't too bad. Parts are more expensive, but not too much. However you have to know going in that only German car mechanics($$$) will have the tools to work on it, and they are the only ones who won't put in standard anti-freeze (or oil) which work on every other car but will break something in yours. Some would argue that the extra tools you have to buy is a factor, but you need special tools for every car anyway. So long as you know you need them it isn't a big deal.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    I think I can take apart a whole Toyota with an 8mm and 10mm socket wrench.

sunshinelackof 8y ago

> The car market in its' totality has always struck me as being irrational. Consumers aren't known for their rationality.

criddell 8y ago

> It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO. Is there some way to include the environmental cost as well? A 10 year old Honda Civic is going to cost less in that regard than a 10 year old BMW 318. But what about a 10 year old Prius?

esotericn 8y ago
Sure; taxation should be pricing in externalities. Buying a less polluting car that costs more is effectively a charitable donation. Most individuals don't make charitable donations of $1000+. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons Tesla are so great. It's fun to drive, so the extra cost isn't purely charitable.

tcoff91 8y ago

You are completely discounting the subjective experience of driving different cars. Some cars are just flat-out much more enjoyable to drive. When people are spending significant portions of their lives driving, getting more enjoyment or comfort out of that time matters to people. It's completely rational to want to enjoy your time driving a vehicle if you spend a lot of time in the car. Driving a chevy cobalt is just awful compared to driving a higher quality vehicle. You're also far more likely to be able to avoid an accident when you have better handling and more powerful brakes. Even horsepower/torque can be a safety feature for certain accident avoidance situations.

MoBattah 8y ago
Can easily get more comfort in a budget car by adding packages.
- anyfoo 8y ago
  Comfort, maybe. Driving, hardly. I drive both a Ford Focus and a small sports car. While the Ford Focus, my usual commuter car, is not bad at all, I still take the sports car to work about once a week, and it just doesn't compare. In some ways, the Ford Focus is more "comfortable", but the control and precision that the sports car offers even when just cruising through normal traffic through the city is amazing. The Ford, again not a bad car, feels like "swimming" in comparison. This is, to some extent, similar in the difference between, say, driving a Chevy and driving a BMW. Subjectively, one just drives much better than the other one, and given how much time you are forced to spend in a car in the US, why would I not opt for a car that implements the driving aspect better?
AnimalMuppet 8y ago
I think esotericn is classifying that as the "enthusiast market". "More enjoyable to drive" matters, sure. But for most of us, it's not the primary driver of the buying decision - practicality is.
dingaling 8y ago
> Some cars are just flat-out much more enjoyable to drive. The counterpoint to that is Audi ( A4 in particular ); dreadfully unbalanced whale-like FWD with the engine hanging out over the front wheels. Objectively dynamically inferior to the humble Ford Mondeo. But sold in droves in spartan-spec because of badge cachet. They have recently started to tidy up their handling but still lag more humble brands.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

appleiigs 8y ago

Japanese cars annoy the heck out of me. I occasionally (forced to) drive a Toyota Venza. Here my issues: 1. low torque at low RPMs. 2. suspension is too soft. 3. it beeps at me constantly. Lock/unlock door, open door, start car, etc. 4. complicated (too many buttons) screens and radio. 5. doesn't allow me to do things I want: a) open door while in drive, b) turn off all my lights when i turn light switch to off, c) use certain screen functions when i drive. 6. hatch door doesn't open if battery is dead. I'm sure I'd have more if I actually owned the vehicle. The BMW I own doesn't treat me like an idiot.

cmrdporcupine 8y ago
VW/Audi group also seems to be designing cars with the 'idiot' perspective now. Rented a 2018 Q5 earlier this year and had same issue with not being able to open door while in drive or reverse (which sucks for checking parking spaces). Our 2013 Q5 we own doesn't do this. My old Jetta liked to lock the doors the moment the ignition turned on, which meant my kids would reach for the door to enter and find it locked even though I just unlocked the doors. Things like that, highly irritating. Car controls should be predictable and easily accessed through muscle memory.
crooked-v 8y ago
> a) open door while in drive, b) turn off all my lights when i turn light switch to off, c) use certain screen functions when i drive As a fellow driver, I wish there were more cars on the road like this.
- jmulho 8y ago
  I would argue that disabling screen functions while the car is moving is more of a safety hazard than not doing so. Unpredictable interfaces are distracting. Would you rather drive next to me while I reach over and adjust the bass on my car stereo or while I spend a few minutes screwing with my car stereo only to learn that I cannot adjust the bass while the car is moving? In many cars, I could simply ask my passenger to adjust the bass. But in my car I will need to pull over on the side of the freeway to adjust the bass and then merge back into traffic from a dead stop. It's a safety feature.

mturmon 8y ago

You think it's all about TCO vs. signaling. The trade space has a lot more dimensions, and you're getting a lot of pushback, especially about the "driving experience" dimension. I'd like to add "reliability" as another dimension that does not seem to have been mentioned yet. I just exited a beloved "old small Japanese car" (1998 Civic), partly because parts were starting to break down. Usually it was nuisance stuff, but it takes time to fix. The TCO of the old car was well less than (say) the payment on my new car, but I couldn't deal with the unpredictability and the lost time.

mtw 8y ago

> It takes a large amount of number crunching to determine that an old small Japanese car has the cheapest TCO. How so? It's trivial to get the average maintenance costs of a car based on model and year. It doesn't take an excel spreadsheet to conclude that something like a 2010 Toyota Corolla would have lowest TCO

MoBattah 8y ago

Thank you. What you describe is exactly what I've noticed after delving into the car world via rentals. If you're buying a sedan -- Toyota/Honda/Kia. If you own a BMW/Audi/Benz, you're not wealthy and you're just signalling to other non-wealthy individuals. It's interesting because most of the BMW/Audi/Benz look terrible and are way cheaper than most expect yet still a terrible, arrogant waste of capital. Only a few brands don't match this. Tesla and Range Rover. The former for obvious reasons. The latter because no comparable high-end SUV exists. If you bought a Ford/Chevy, you're asking for reliability issues.

sjg007 8y ago
Ford and Chevy are pretty reliable. BMWs are fun to drive. Porsches are a step above BMW in terms of fun factor.
compiler-guy 8y ago
"If you own a BMW/Audi/Benz, you're not wealthy and you're just signalling to other non-wealthy individuals." Err, the median income of a 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-class buyer was nearly $200,000 [1]. That qualifies as pretty high income. The numbers are similar for BMW and Audi. You can argue that they aren't "wealthy" (as this isn't a measure of net worth), but people with high incomes are more likely to be wealthy than people without. Someone making $200K a year certainly isn't the stereotypical person "faking being rich" you portray them as here. "Look terrible and are way cheaper": well, "look terrible" is all about personal taste. If it doesn't float your boat, then fine, but it apparently floats enough boats that the companies sell a lot of them. "Way cheaper" is almost objectively false. Most reviewers like the cabins of the luxury brands far more than they like the cabins of the non luxury. You may think they aren't worth the extra dollars, but when someone is wealthy, the marginal value of those extra dollars is lower. [1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/expert-reviews/powersteering-2017-mercedes-benz-e-class-review https://www.jdpower.com/cars/expert-reviews/powersteering-20...
- MoBattah 8y ago
  $200k for a household is not high income by any measure. That sentence explains your entire perspective in your comment. E-Class = Poor people If you consider these cars expensive, that’s your problem.

gniv 8y ago

One point that I'm not seeing clearly articulated in this sub-thread: The US is widely rich. A lot of people can afford to buy things for status-signaling, no matter how silly you and I find it.

d1zzy 8y ago

You know, there are German cars that are priced competitively. When I went shopping for a new hatchback moving on from the 20 year old Hold Civic, I did look at Honda Civic, VW Golf and tons of other small hatchbacks and I ended up with the WV which wasn't even the most expensive choice.