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but that doesn’t really answer the question of “why remove it?” keeping the audio jack does not prevent the use of wireless headphones. and keeping the audio ja

but that doesn’t really answer the question of “why remove it?” keeping the audio jack does not prevent the use of wireless headphones. and keeping the audio jack does not really pose a problem.

jamesrcole 8y ago
It does answer it: as I said, it forces quicker uptake of wireless, and thus quicker reduction of cost.
- nradov 8y ago
  If wireless enables quicker reduction in cost then when do iPhones keep getting more expensive?
  - jamesrcole 8y ago
    I never said that. I said if wireless is the only option in those phones then this will cause more wireless headphones to be sold, and this will cause wireless headphones to become cheaper. (This is clearer if you read the earlier comments in this sub-thread. By the time the discussion got to the comment you were replying to, that context was being assumed).
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  i guess my point is that i don’t see how that follows. if bluetooth headphones are so great compared to wired headphones, then wasn’t that incentive and market already there? in fact, it just shows the truth, in that apple just wants to be able to sell more and more dongles and bluetooth headphones, so they force this onto their users.
  - jamesrcole 8y ago
    You say you don't see how it follows, yet you yourself say it will cause more wireless headphones to be sold. And if it causes Apple to sell more wireless headphones, then it will also cause other manufacturers to sell more wireless headphones. Greater volume of sales will bring down the price of wireless headphones. > in fact, it just shows the truth, in that apple just wants to be able to sell more and more dongles and bluetooth headphones The idea that this is simply a cheap cash-grab sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. But even if it's a purely financial decision, so what? Aren't financial considerations behind most things companies do? If HN is to be believed, most people absolutely hate the fact that the phones don't have headphone jacks. So if people hate it, and won't buy the phones because of it, then how can it also be a cash grab?
    - nikofeyn 8y ago
      > You say you don't see how it follows, yet you yourself say it will cause more wireless headphones to be sold. no i didn't. i said apple wants to sell more wireless headphones and dongles. removing the audio jack forces users to look at the new shiny airpods, or whatever they're called, and say "i need that". then they need dongles for integration purposes. yet, they didn't need the dongle before and could still buy wireless headphones. of course it's a cash grab. that is how apple operates. conspiracy theory? the ceo is literally an expert in operations and logistics, probably apple's greatest strength behind their marketing. it can't be any other decision, because like i said, other phone makers are able to integrate it just fine.
      - jamesrcole 8y ago
        "Apple will sell more wireless headphones, but this won't mean they sell more wireless headphones." That's what you're saying. If people are going to buy more wireless headphones because of these phones, then they're going to buy them from a range of manufacturers -- in fact mostly other manufacturers because the Apple ones are so pricey. If people are going to buy more wireless headphones because of these phones then the prices will go down. Do you dispute this? Because this is the point that you originally claimed I didn't make. > i said apple wants to sell more ... dongles. Do you know that the phones (up until latest models) come with a dongle so there's not going to be a large number of sales of them? > of course it's a cash grab. that is how apple operates It's ridiculous to suggest that everything apple does is just a cheap cash grab.
        ayoisaiah 8y ago
        > It's ridiculous to suggest that everything apple does is just a cheap cash grab. What's so ridiculous about it? Have you not seen the rate at which Apple are increasing the prices across all their products? And petty practices like not including the lightening to 3.5mm adapter or fast charger on a $1000+ phone e.t.c.
        jamesrcole 8y ago
- addicted 8y ago
  But that argument is justification works for removing any technology, whether superior or not. If you allow only one technology, it will be cheaper irrespective of whether the disallowed technology is better or not. This makes Apple’s decision worse. It’s an admission that wireless audio is an inferior technology, and that the only way for it to succeed is by removing the alternative, ans/or making it significantly worse.
  - jamesrcole 8y ago
    I think wireless headphones are a good thing, so making them cheaper is a good thing. As you can see in my original comment, I'm just saying this is my view, and I know many people see it otherwise.
    - arvinsim 8y ago
      I can see your point but I disagree that it's worth it. I think wireless would have gotten better even if we did not remove the headphone jack.
      - jamesrcole 8y ago
        But that's different to my point, in two ways. 1) I was talking about cost not quality (c.f. "wireless would have gotten better even if"). 2) I wasn't arguing about whether it would get better or not, but the rate at which it happens being changed by removing the jack (c.f. "would have gotten better even if we did not remove the headphone jack.")
- Mankrik 8y ago
  So creating a demand for a market that wasn't in demand, that sounds artificially created, infact it is.
  - jamesrcole 8y ago
    So what? That's how the history of technology goes. Innovations come along that people didn't want until they were there. The technology creates the demand. Henry Ford said (and I paraphrase) "if I had asked people what they wanted they would have said 'faster horses'".
    - Mankrik 8y ago
      But people could still ride horses when cars came about and they still can, the transition happened over decades. But this change is happening over a matter of years, the reasons for which are not utilitarian.
      - jamesrcole 8y ago
        And people can still use phones with headphone jacks. Did the existence of cars destroy the existence of horses? Is Apple stopping all companies from using headphone jacks?

jamesrcole 8y ago

It does answer it: as I said, it forces quicker uptake of wireless, and thus quicker reduction of cost.

nradov 8y ago
If wireless enables quicker reduction in cost then when do iPhones keep getting more expensive?
- jamesrcole 8y ago
  I never said that. I said if wireless is the only option in those phones then this will cause more wireless headphones to be sold, and this will cause wireless headphones to become cheaper. (This is clearer if you read the earlier comments in this sub-thread. By the time the discussion got to the comment you were replying to, that context was being assumed).
nikofeyn 8y ago
i guess my point is that i don’t see how that follows. if bluetooth headphones are so great compared to wired headphones, then wasn’t that incentive and market already there? in fact, it just shows the truth, in that apple just wants to be able to sell more and more dongles and bluetooth headphones, so they force this onto their users.
- jamesrcole 8y ago
  You say you don't see how it follows, yet you yourself say it will cause more wireless headphones to be sold. And if it causes Apple to sell more wireless headphones, then it will also cause other manufacturers to sell more wireless headphones. Greater volume of sales will bring down the price of wireless headphones. > in fact, it just shows the truth, in that apple just wants to be able to sell more and more dongles and bluetooth headphones The idea that this is simply a cheap cash-grab sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. But even if it's a purely financial decision, so what? Aren't financial considerations behind most things companies do? If HN is to be believed, most people absolutely hate the fact that the phones don't have headphone jacks. So if people hate it, and won't buy the phones because of it, then how can it also be a cash grab?
  - nikofeyn 8y ago
    > You say you don't see how it follows, yet you yourself say it will cause more wireless headphones to be sold. no i didn't. i said apple wants to sell more wireless headphones and dongles. removing the audio jack forces users to look at the new shiny airpods, or whatever they're called, and say "i need that". then they need dongles for integration purposes. yet, they didn't need the dongle before and could still buy wireless headphones. of course it's a cash grab. that is how apple operates. conspiracy theory? the ceo is literally an expert in operations and logistics, probably apple's greatest strength behind their marketing. it can't be any other decision, because like i said, other phone makers are able to integrate it just fine.
    - jamesrcole 8y ago
      "Apple will sell more wireless headphones, but this won't mean they sell more wireless headphones." That's what you're saying. If people are going to buy more wireless headphones because of these phones, then they're going to buy them from a range of manufacturers -- in fact mostly other manufacturers because the Apple ones are so pricey. If people are going to buy more wireless headphones because of these phones then the prices will go down. Do you dispute this? Because this is the point that you originally claimed I didn't make. > i said apple wants to sell more ... dongles. Do you know that the phones (up until latest models) come with a dongle so there's not going to be a large number of sales of them? > of course it's a cash grab. that is how apple operates It's ridiculous to suggest that everything apple does is just a cheap cash grab.
      - ayoisaiah 8y ago
        > It's ridiculous to suggest that everything apple does is just a cheap cash grab. What's so ridiculous about it? Have you not seen the rate at which Apple are increasing the prices across all their products? And petty practices like not including the lightening to 3.5mm adapter or fast charger on a $1000+ phone e.t.c.
        jamesrcole 8y ago
addicted 8y ago
But that argument is justification works for removing any technology, whether superior or not. If you allow only one technology, it will be cheaper irrespective of whether the disallowed technology is better or not. This makes Apple’s decision worse. It’s an admission that wireless audio is an inferior technology, and that the only way for it to succeed is by removing the alternative, ans/or making it significantly worse.
- jamesrcole 8y ago
  I think wireless headphones are a good thing, so making them cheaper is a good thing. As you can see in my original comment, I'm just saying this is my view, and I know many people see it otherwise.
  - arvinsim 8y ago
    I can see your point but I disagree that it's worth it. I think wireless would have gotten better even if we did not remove the headphone jack.
    - jamesrcole 8y ago
      But that's different to my point, in two ways. 1) I was talking about cost not quality (c.f. "wireless would have gotten better even if"). 2) I wasn't arguing about whether it would get better or not, but the rate at which it happens being changed by removing the jack (c.f. "would have gotten better even if we did not remove the headphone jack.")
Mankrik 8y ago
So creating a demand for a market that wasn't in demand, that sounds artificially created, infact it is.
- jamesrcole 8y ago
  So what? That's how the history of technology goes. Innovations come along that people didn't want until they were there. The technology creates the demand. Henry Ford said (and I paraphrase) "if I had asked people what they wanted they would have said 'faster horses'".
  - Mankrik 8y ago
    But people could still ride horses when cars came about and they still can, the transition happened over decades. But this change is happening over a matter of years, the reasons for which are not utilitarian.
    - jamesrcole 8y ago
      And people can still use phones with headphone jacks. Did the existence of cars destroy the existence of horses? Is Apple stopping all companies from using headphone jacks?