9 ms·
Detroit Has Had It with Cars
- Waterluvian 8y agoSUVs existed 30 years ago? My family has one vehicle, an SUV. I'm a newish dad and I don't understand how you do parent stuff without an SUV. I would have to have multiple vehicles if I had a sedan.
- greglindahl 8y agoHave you ever heard of a "station wagon" or "minivan"? Also the Chevy Suburban has existed for a long, long time.
- pandapower2 8y agoThis. An SUV is just a station wagon or minivan with more cosmetic appeal. Not a bad thing. Kind of clever really. Car manufacturers figured out how to deliver a vehicle that has the benefits of a minivan with an external appearance free of the "I just traded my cool car for a minivan, my life is over" negative association.
- kenhwang 8y agoIt's hard getting a minivan with AWD, but every crossover/SUV has it available as an option. Wagons just aren't commonly offered in the US. The higher ground clearance a crossover typically has compared to a minivan is also quite nice for both increased visibility and less scraping against curbs and driveways. It's not clever marketing, it's just a better product for most people.
- thrower123 8y agoThose old heavy front-wheel drive minivans drove like tanks in snow. Especially with a cheap set of studded snow tires, there was very little need for AWD.
- kenhwang 8y agoEven a Miata can handle snow with modern snow tires until it's ground clearance isn't high enough anymore. Most people don't like maintaining two sets of wheels for summer and winter, nor do they get enough snow to justify having a full set of winter tires. For light snow and plowed roads, AWD and all season tires work well enough.
- thrower123 8y agoYes, people are lazy and don't want to shell out $500 for a second set of tires and $100 a year to swap them on and off. They'd rather be out in the puckerbrush off the road because they try driving in snow and slush on "all-weather" tires... The first snow storm of the year is a great day for the wrecker companies.
- kenhwang 8y agoThat's assuming you're willing to run winter tires on your summer wheels, which you probably aren't given the trend of big wheels, narrow sidewalls. You're probably going to want a set of smaller steel wheels for the winter. AWD is usually a <$1500 option which makes it really competitive against a second set of wheels and tires.
- ehaliewicz2 8y agoIf you need AWD to get moving, that's kind of dangerous, since it doesn't increase your ability to stop.
- kenhwang 8y agoI think most people just want the AWD to get in/out of their driveway, then you're on plowed roads and the AWD doesn't really make a difference anymore. Plus, AWD+snow tires is still better than FWD/RWD+snow tires. It's not always an either-or situation.
- ehaliewicz2 8y ago
- rleigh 8y agoBut they make some terrible compromises. The crossover-type have less boot space than my old UK Ford Focus hatchback, same with the rear seats down. A real station wagon has gallons of space. It's all cosmetic style without a huge amount of substance, and you pay a premium for it as well! I'll grant that they have good riding position and front visibility. But rear visibility is truly dire. The Qashqai I test drove had a rear camera (actually 360°) with front display just so you could reverse without hitting something due to the poor visibility. Ride quality is reasonable. Fuel economy as well, though still not as good as a lower, smaller body. But in no way does it compete with a minivan. I'd go for a Ford Transit Connect or VW Caddy if I actually wanted some space. And the dimensions aren't much different to the SUV!
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoSUVs have been around since the 70s. Maybe earlier. Here in Europe many, probably most, parents do parent stuff without an SUV just fine. If you have more than average number of kids an estate (stationwagon), or people carrier (minivan, I think) seems to work perfectly well. An estate drives just as nicely as any car, SUVs and people carriers often don't.
- jessriedel 8y agoMost SUVs in the US are unibody construction now. The difference between them and minivans is mostly cosmetic.
- siculars 8y agoThis. Same boat. Have a Mazda CX-5. No clue how one functions without an SUV. That said, my wife has a Honda Accord - she is always driving my SUV and is actively looking to trading into some sort of SUV especially as we start thinking second kid. I'll also just wrap that whole thing up and say Tesla seems to be selling sedans just fine. Let's not forget that GM is the company that willfully killed people to save money on a $0.25 ignition switch.
- sorenjan 8y agoWhat can an SUV do that something like a Volvo V60/V90, Audi A4/A6 or similar cant? Do you really need the extra ground clearance because you have a kid in the car? A Honda Accord should work just fine for three kids, at least the estate version.
- syedkarim 8y agoI live in Chicago. We had a foot of snow land on us this morning. Our 300-foot driveway was not cleared this morning, so my wife took the 2007 Mercury Mariner (Ford Escape). She made it to the road without any issues. It took me two hours in a 1994 BMW 525 to get to the end of the driveway; go two feet, shovel, backup, shovel, then just shovel a path the whole way. We have three kids in car seats. Getting a baby carrier out from the middle of the BMW is a mess. It's simple in the Mariner. I frequently need building materials for things around the property. Where do I load a car with shovels, 2x4s, plywood, and hardware cloth?
- reaperducer 8y agoShovels go in the trunk or back seat. Plywood gets strapped to the roof. Just like millions of people did for the nearly hundred years before SUV’s existed. I don’t know what hardware cloth is, though.
- sorenjan 8y agoI live in Sweden, we get some snow from time to time as well. What we do is put winter tires on all cars (it's mandatory in winter conditions and after December 1). I'm pretty sure getting car seats in and out of cars have improved in the last 24 years. A baby carrier is probably more convenient in the front passenger seat, don't forget to turn off the airbag. Most people around here just put a trailer behind the car if the stuff doesn't fit in the back with the back seats folded. I'd also like to point out that of course some people need 4x4 with higher ground clearance. But do the majority need it?
- peferron 8y agoI'm also a newish dad. Our only car is a Honda Fit and we're doing fine, I don't recall ever running out of space. I'm not sure what we'd need a SUV for as long as we don't go off-road. Of course that'll change if we have a second child, but even then a minivan seems much more practical than a SUV.
- dwd 8y agoA Honda Fit is like a Tardis - it seems larger on the inside than the outside and you can fit in an insane amount of stuff due to the flat floor plan. I used to own one (a Honda Jazz) and used it to shift fridges and other items you'd normally need a ute for. Super reliable as well.
- dbt00 8y agoI have two teenage children. I still drive a Mazda 5, even though they've been out of production for several years. Seats 6 (if two are small children) on the wheel base and drive train of a Mazda 3 hatchback. It was our only family car for several years with pets and kids and sports and all the normal family bullshit people do. Our other family car is a Subaru Outback. It has much better ground clearance than the Mazda and seats 5 adults. You can lay the seats down and put a lot of crap in there if you need to move a bunch of shit around. Neither of these are SUVs. We never came close to needing an SUV for everyday driving.
- kenhwang 8y agoDepends on which generation Outback, based on your description of better ground clearance, I think it's 4th of 5th generation which is marketed as and considered an "SUV". That's the exact vehicle type that is replacing cars. Even real SUVs (Tahoe/Expedition/4runner) are becoming replaced by CUVs.
- dagw 8y agoSubaru Outback. Isn't the Outback an SUV?
- btgeekboy 8y agoA lot of modern SUVs aren't like the SUVs of yesteryear. The Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Ford Escape and the like are basically tall hatchbacks - they're not built on truck chassis like the GM Suburban or the Ford Expedition used to be. If you're not driving aggressively, where you need minimal weight and a low CG, a modern SUV is generally more versatile than a car, and more stylish than a minivan, while still offering a ride and gas mileage that's on par with equivalent cars.
- wkpinecone 8y agoAt over 1.6 tons a RAV4 is still hundreds of kg heavier than a sedan and has significantly more wind resistance and higher fuel consumption. It's not as bad as even bigger SUVs but it's hardly efficient. It's not difficult to find more efficient sedans with more legroom or equivalent trunk size.
- deepakhj 8y ago2019 rav4 hybrid does 41/37/39 mpg. (City/highway/combined)
- adrianN 8y agoNow imagine what it would do if it weighed 30% less and had lower wind resistance.
- wkpinecone 8y agoThe Toyota Prius does 53 - 55 mpg...
- gok 8y agoThat's effectively a Camry Hybrid. It gets 20% better mileage and has about a quarter the cargo space.
- kenhwang 8y agoLike a Camry hybrid from which the RAV4's platform is based on? 44city/47hwy/46combined. The Camry only weights 10% less though. 20% reduction in fuel economy for far more cargo space, AWD, and higher ground clearance seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.
- keeganjw 8y agoSure, Americans are buying fewer sedans but they're definitely buy way fewer American sedans. Domestics ones just haven't been as good as imports for a long long time. Why buy a Chevy Cruze when Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics exist? Add in Hyundai, Kia, and Volkswagen's offerings and it's no contest.
- PhantomGremlin 8y agoThe US content of many Toyota and Honda sedans is quite high. They're "domestics", not "imports". Toyota and Honda are able to build American sedans. Apparently GM isn't.
- sorenjan 8y agoThe number of SUVs and pickups sold in the US shows that gasoline is way too cheap there. Sure, a select few, maybe even a more significant portion, use pickups for work. But the SUVs are simply a waste, weighing several hundred kg more than necessary to do the job and less aerodynamic than a normal car. And I'm pretty sure a lot of the pickup owners use them mainly because of their image. I rarely see tradesmen in pickups here, stuff like VW Caddy is really popular though. Very few people actually need an SUV. They like being in this large heavy thing because they feel safer and see further, so they buy it instead of a station wagon. If fuel was more reasonable priced to better reflect the external cost they would have to decide if the added cost of driving an unnecessarily thirsty vehicle was worth it. Meanwhile the last time we had as much CO2 in the atmosphere as we have now were several million years ago, with sea levels about ten meters higher than they are now, we have severe droughts, wildfires, melting polar ice, rapidly diminishing glaciers, melting permafrost, and so on. And the American people not only elects a president that doesn't even believe the white house commissioned climate report, they continue to buy large vehicles that burn too much fuel. I'm pretty sure we will see more and more conflicts and climate refugees in our lifetime when people are driven from their land by floods, droughts, or similar. https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/ https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/
- joe_the_user 8y agoThere's no way to make gas expensive enough that the wealthy are deterred from buying gas guzzlers but the poor are able to drive something (and thus get to work, etc). When you have some groups with far more income and wealth than others, controlling behavior with taxes becomes difficult to impossible. The only way to achieve fuel economy in American cars is by regulation.
- adrianN 8y agoIt would already help if 80% of the people who now choose an SUV would choose a small car.
- kenhwang 8y agoThe obvious solution is to tax automakers based on their overall fuel economy instead of breakout by cars/trucks. The problem is that it pretty much kills the US auto industry since they're almost always the least fuel efficient in every segment and bias heavily towards making large vehicles.
- kenhwang 8y agoModern crossovers (marketed as SUVs) can pretty much do everything well enough. It can haul people and cargo just as well as a car/wagon or minivan; wagons are generally not offered in the US so that's one less option for a cargo hauler. Poor road quality and consumer preference favors the higher ground clearance than a minivan. AWD is still a rare option on cars, but optionally available on every crossover on the market. Gas is cheap and crossovers are really close to cars in fuel economy. The biggest crossover drawback of increased rollover risk has pretty much been eliminated by modern stability systems.
- kokokokoko 8y agoSUVs have moved into the role of the default family car. We are seeing a reduction in people without children owning cars. Trucks are preferred in more rural areas. Therefore, this appears to be the effect of less new automobile purchases by people without children who live in urban areas. I wouldn't draw too many dramatic conclusions outside of that.
- Tiktaalik 8y agoBad news for pedestrians since SUVs are so much more dangerous than cars in a collision. http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructure/gov-SUV-rise-pedestrian-deaths.html http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructur...
- Gibbon1 8y agoThing I and two friends noticed about newer cars, the wide low sloped A pillars create blind spots making it difficult to see pedestrians in crosswalks.
- PankajGhosh 8y agoI think the sentiment here is not acknowledging the full picture of shift in car ownership in US. While it is true that more families are opting for SUVs, but that is because more families are opting to share a car (preferably an SUV from utility perspective) rather than owning two or more cars/sedans. The increase in availability of rideshare (Uber/Lyft) is also playing a part in this gradual shift. (I can't seem to find the study which stated above, but will keep looking and update this comment when I find it)
- olivermarks 8y agoThe US (and probably Europe) are arguably ceding their ICE automobile manufacturing to China, who will manufacture future government controlled EV transportation. The authorities will decide what vehicle you are allowed to travel in and where to or not. Related article: Can Germany survive the ‘iPhone moment’ for cars? https://www.ft.com/content/61684fa6-d2f6-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5 https://www.ft.com/content/61684fa6-d2f6-11e8-a9f2-7574db66b...
- dwd 8y agoDiscontinuing the Bolt is a shame or are they shifting full production to South Korea?
- throwawaythekey 8y agoThe worst thing about other people's SUVs is they obstruct your vision. I suspect there's an arms race going on with more and more people picking up SUVs to see around other cars.
- kenhwang 8y agoMy coupe completely fits below the window line of most crossovers. Driving is terrifying sometimes. I suspect part of the CUV trend is just an arms race to keep up height wise with the general vehicle population.
- intrasight 8y agoThey're not good at it, and even if they were, there's not as much profit in it. And GM's approach of making a dozen cars that fill the same ecological niche stopped making sense many years ago.
- teilo 8y agoThat's OK, because I've had it with Detroit's cars. In 2014 I went from an Impala to a Mazda 6, and this year from the 6 to a fully loaded Passat assembled in Tennessee. The closest thing from Detroit cost more, had lower fuel economy, a lower warranty, fewer features, and was less comfortable.
- alphabettsy 8y agoDetroit automakers have for some reason been unable to complete with foreign carmakers in the US for some time now. Chevy sold about half as many Malibu’s as Honda sold of the Accord, same goes for Cruze vs Civic. What I don’t understand is how selling 180k vehicles (Cruze and Malibu) isn’t enough to consider them viable? At the same time, am I crazy to think these companies won’t find themselves in or on the edge of bankruptcy again when the market changes?
- justin66 8y agoAmericans don’t buy cars anymore. They buy SUVs and pickups. OK, that isn’t strictly true: Sedans, station wagons, hatchbacks and the like were selling at a 5.5 million-vehicle annual rate in October. But that’s half the pace of three decades ago. Only a slice of the overall vehicle market worth tens of billions of dollars. No big deal.
- anfilt 8y agoHow about small trucks, not the behemoths that are what most car makers are selling. Like even Toyota's pickups are bigger than I remember and seem to keep getting bigger. Almost all the trucks in the US are made for the US market because of a 25% tariff. It's really annoying.