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I do a lot of Google Maps moderation and there’s a ton of bad changes being attempted every day. Honestly I’m amazed Google doesn’t bother to vet anyone really.

I do a lot of Google Maps moderation and there’s a ton of bad changes being attempted every day. Honestly I’m amazed Google doesn’t bother to vet anyone really. Becoming a local guide is easy and not that difficult for a spam group to create enough fake accounts to get things pushed through. Just last night I caught the local Target that was reclassified as a “prison”. What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages.

amelius 8y ago
In turn, I'm amazed that people put effort into databases that are owned by companies. Wouldn't it be much more fulfilling to do the same work for an open database, such as open street maps?
- taeric 8y ago
  Do they do a better job combating this style of fraud?
  - usrusr 8y ago
    The dominant platform is getting all the attacks. OSM is a huge success on many levels, but unlike Google maps it hasn't become "the phone book" (and never tried to)
    - taeric 8y ago
      But doesn't this imply that it is not a good investment of time to get your name/business in there?
- nordsieck 8y ago
  > In turn, I'm amazed that people put effort into databases that are owned by companies. Wouldn't it be much more fulfilling to do the same work for an open database, such as open street maps? There are tons of open source developers who contribute to code bases that require copyright assignment. They probably do it for the same reasons: * It's personally useful * It's useful to a lot of people * It's (comparatively) easy to do * It's rewarding in some other way
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    * They're naive
  - amenghra 8y ago
    Most companies require a CLA. A CLA is not automatically equivalent to handing over copyright to the contribution. In some cases, the company is asking for a license to use+distribute the code (which IMHO should be implied by open a PR in the first place). For example, you can read Square’s CLA here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeRVQ35-gq2vdSxD1kdh7CJwRdjmUA0EZ9gRXaWYoUeKPZEQQ/viewform?formkey=dDViT2xzUHAwRkI3X3k5Z0lQM091OGc6MQ&ndplr=1 https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeRVQ35-gq2vdSxD1kd...
    - namibj 8y ago
      GPL skips the issue due to the PR having to be GPL to even be published. AGPL might be an issue though? Would it need to be explicit? Still, GPL.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- hrydgard 8y ago
  I use the Google Maps GPS to navigate, and have contributed by moving a couple of locations that had misleading coordinates (for example, out in a field instead of pointing to the parking log). Purely for my own convenience next time I'm navigating to these place.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  They probably like that it is useful to a ton of people. Work on an open steet database - how many people will see and appreciate your work?
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Many of those are just looking for free advertising really as well - in particular if they are a retail front or real estate for sale or let. Just enter in this information you want to give to customers to get a free advertising? Any sane business says yes please.
Eridrus 8y ago
Google already let's people claim their maps listing via Google My Business. I would be shocked if they couldn't lock edits, or at the very least review them. I hope Google uses their Duplex tech to review phone number changes though, should be easy to call the existing phone number a few times.
- bpicolo 8y ago
  On the contrary, if someone claims your business, it's extremely difficult to undo. My mother has this issue with her 1 person LLC - some random person claimed it, and the reclaiming flow was busted last I checked
  - Angostura 8y ago
    When I did this a long time ago, I received a postcard to the address on the website, contain a PIN code that I needed to input on line. Don't they do that any more?
    - chipperyman573 8y ago
      Could you change the address (as described in this article) then claim it?
    - bpicolo 8y ago
      Not sure, the issue I hit was that it was legitimately broken when I tried. 500 responses or some such from an API call
- brod 8y ago
  I recently changed a major shopping centre in my state from "Foo Market - The Shopping Capital" to "Foo Market" and 48h later it was approved. I'm not sure which one google would consider more correct and would assume changing a phone number might go through a few more checks but it was surprising. Also reminds me about the taxi lost and found issue [1]. [1] https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/76-lost-in-a-cab https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/76-lost-in-a-cab
Sylos 8y ago
> What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages. If they do that and the correct information changes without them updating, they're (rightfully) going to get sued by those businesses. By having it editable by anyone, they avoid that, even if it results in the information being wrong more often. Proper ways to deal with this would involve employing actual human beings for moderation, for filling in / updating the map data, or for providing support and a verification process to businesses trying to correct their data. All three of these solutions cost more money than the status quo and are things that Google doesn't really do anywhere, so I doubt this is going to get better anytime soon.
- jamespo 8y ago
  They'd get sued? Really?
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    GDPR principle d if the business is a person? (I don't actually know)
    - hadrien01 8y ago
      How can a business be a person?
      - alistairSH 8y ago
        When the court says it is... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/03/corporations-people-adam-winkler/554852/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/03/corpora...
        8y ago
tunap 8y ago
I am curious what the 3rd party bounty/revenue model is & if fixing/locking edits to verified owners would inversely affect G's & 3rds revenues. I ask b/c every licensed biz owner I know who have not utilized Goog's biz profile service(?) get dozens of calls a week to "activate your Google account NOW!". Quite off-putting & a very significant waste of their(the owners') time deflecting the onslaught.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
optimiz3 8y ago
Does Google pay you to moderate? What is the user incentive to commit hours of time to a 3rd party commercial enterprise?
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  No, Google doesn't pay you when you do work for them as a "Local Guide". That means that there is little incentive to stop people who are paid by entities that have vested interest in manipulating Google Maps information.
- superflyguy 8y ago
  Stack overflow is pretty popular. Although their recent attempt to "be nice to new users" (which wasn't necessary before, and coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota) suggests that this won't last forever.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    > coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota Do you perceive Quora to have higher or lower quality answers? I'm having trouble parsing what you meant to say.
    - johnsimer 8y ago
      Pretty sure s/he means lower
  - baroffoos 8y ago
    Stackoverflow data is free for anyone to download and reuse. Gmaps is a proprietary dataset. Helping people on SO also feels a lot less like working for a tech megacorp for free.
  - Avamander 8y ago
    > (which wasn't necessary before, and coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota) It was absolutely necessary. It isn't a "meme" that SO community has hostile users. I hand out a lot of votes when browsing SO because so f many people don't really deserve the downvotes.
black-tea 8y ago
Why do you work for Google for no pay? OpenStreetMap always needs work. Help the community.
- duiker101 8y ago
  Honestly for me it boils down to Google maps being just a superior app. It's not even the amount of data in itself(which is a lot already tbh) but just the app being better. I don't think I have seen a decent OSM app yet.
  - gordo4 8y ago
    OsmAnd is far superior to Google Maps in my opinion, especially for backcountry offline navigation. It's one of the most important apps when traveling abroad or when cell service is spotty. Google Maps is basically useless in rural South America, for example... and OSM is actually more up to date than Google Maps when it comes to river crossings, etc... and POI data is available for offline use. Google Maps can't even do offline navigation and rerouting.
    - ant6n 8y ago
      Is that the ugly one where you have to download huge regions to offline just to look at where you at right now?
      - tinix 8y ago
        Huge? Not so much... OsmAnd uses vector maps, which are very small, compared to "offline" Google Maps tiles. A couple hundred megabytes for an entire country's road system is not "huge".
        jpatokal 8y ago
        Like the mobile app itself, Google Maps offline maps are also vector based.
gniv 8y ago
> What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages. Here are a few problems with that: 1) Businesses also have incentives to spam by adding lots of vaguely-related words to names, categories and description. 2) Businesses forget that they claimed the listing, and so stale info remains locked for too long.
mcv 8y ago
And sometimes fixes to incorrect information get rejected. My first edit was to correct an error where a restaurant had the website of a nearby shop listed. The website contained no information whatsoever about the restaurant (to my frustration, because I wanted to eat there). My removal of the website got rejected. I think I needed to offer proof of some sort. Adding info is easier: my second edit was adding opening hours to a shop. No proof needed. My submitted hours were not the official opening hours, because the shop always opens 15 minutes too late.

amelius 8y ago

In turn, I'm amazed that people put effort into databases that are owned by companies. Wouldn't it be much more fulfilling to do the same work for an open database, such as open street maps?

taeric 8y ago
Do they do a better job combating this style of fraud?
- usrusr 8y ago
  The dominant platform is getting all the attacks. OSM is a huge success on many levels, but unlike Google maps it hasn't become "the phone book" (and never tried to)
  - taeric 8y ago
    But doesn't this imply that it is not a good investment of time to get your name/business in there?
nordsieck 8y ago
> In turn, I'm amazed that people put effort into databases that are owned by companies. Wouldn't it be much more fulfilling to do the same work for an open database, such as open street maps? There are tons of open source developers who contribute to code bases that require copyright assignment. They probably do it for the same reasons: * It's personally useful * It's useful to a lot of people * It's (comparatively) easy to do * It's rewarding in some other way
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  * They're naive
- amenghra 8y ago
  Most companies require a CLA. A CLA is not automatically equivalent to handing over copyright to the contribution. In some cases, the company is asking for a license to use+distribute the code (which IMHO should be implied by open a PR in the first place). For example, you can read Square’s CLA here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeRVQ35-gq2vdSxD1kdh7CJwRdjmUA0EZ9gRXaWYoUeKPZEQQ/viewform?formkey=dDViT2xzUHAwRkI3X3k5Z0lQM091OGc6MQ&ndplr=1 https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeRVQ35-gq2vdSxD1kd...
  - namibj 8y ago
    GPL skips the issue due to the PR having to be GPL to even be published. AGPL might be an issue though? Would it need to be explicit? Still, GPL.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
hrydgard 8y ago
I use the Google Maps GPS to navigate, and have contributed by moving a couple of locations that had misleading coordinates (for example, out in a field instead of pointing to the parking log). Purely for my own convenience next time I'm navigating to these place.
oh_sigh 8y ago
They probably like that it is useful to a ton of people. Work on an open steet database - how many people will see and appreciate your work?
Nasrudith 8y ago
Many of those are just looking for free advertising really as well - in particular if they are a retail front or real estate for sale or let. Just enter in this information you want to give to customers to get a free advertising? Any sane business says yes please.

Eridrus 8y ago

Google already let's people claim their maps listing via Google My Business. I would be shocked if they couldn't lock edits, or at the very least review them. I hope Google uses their Duplex tech to review phone number changes though, should be easy to call the existing phone number a few times.

bpicolo 8y ago
On the contrary, if someone claims your business, it's extremely difficult to undo. My mother has this issue with her 1 person LLC - some random person claimed it, and the reclaiming flow was busted last I checked
- Angostura 8y ago
  When I did this a long time ago, I received a postcard to the address on the website, contain a PIN code that I needed to input on line. Don't they do that any more?
  - chipperyman573 8y ago
    Could you change the address (as described in this article) then claim it?
  - bpicolo 8y ago
    Not sure, the issue I hit was that it was legitimately broken when I tried. 500 responses or some such from an API call
brod 8y ago
I recently changed a major shopping centre in my state from "Foo Market - The Shopping Capital" to "Foo Market" and 48h later it was approved. I'm not sure which one google would consider more correct and would assume changing a phone number might go through a few more checks but it was surprising. Also reminds me about the taxi lost and found issue [1]. [1] https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/76-lost-in-a-cab https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/76-lost-in-a-cab

Sylos 8y ago

> What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages. If they do that and the correct information changes without them updating, they're (rightfully) going to get sued by those businesses. By having it editable by anyone, they avoid that, even if it results in the information being wrong more often. Proper ways to deal with this would involve employing actual human beings for moderation, for filling in / updating the map data, or for providing support and a verification process to businesses trying to correct their data. All three of these solutions cost more money than the status quo and are things that Google doesn't really do anywhere, so I doubt this is going to get better anytime soon.

jamespo 8y ago
They'd get sued? Really?
- scarejunba 8y ago
  GDPR principle d if the business is a person? (I don't actually know)
  - hadrien01 8y ago
    How can a business be a person?
    - alistairSH 8y ago
      When the court says it is... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/03/corporations-people-adam-winkler/554852/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/03/corpora...
      - 8y ago

tunap 8y ago

I am curious what the 3rd party bounty/revenue model is & if fixing/locking edits to verified owners would inversely affect G's & 3rds revenues. I ask b/c every licensed biz owner I know who have not utilized Goog's biz profile service(?) get dozens of calls a week to "activate your Google account NOW!". Quite off-putting & a very significant waste of their(the owners') time deflecting the onslaught.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

optimiz3 8y ago

Does Google pay you to moderate? What is the user incentive to commit hours of time to a 3rd party commercial enterprise?

darpa_escapee 8y ago
No, Google doesn't pay you when you do work for them as a "Local Guide". That means that there is little incentive to stop people who are paid by entities that have vested interest in manipulating Google Maps information.
superflyguy 8y ago
Stack overflow is pretty popular. Although their recent attempt to "be nice to new users" (which wasn't necessary before, and coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota) suggests that this won't last forever.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota Do you perceive Quora to have higher or lower quality answers? I'm having trouble parsing what you meant to say.
  - johnsimer 8y ago
    Pretty sure s/he means lower
- baroffoos 8y ago
  Stackoverflow data is free for anyone to download and reuse. Gmaps is a proprietary dataset. Helping people on SO also feels a lot less like working for a tech megacorp for free.
- Avamander 8y ago
  > (which wasn't necessary before, and coincides with the quality of answers rapidly approaching that of Quota) It was absolutely necessary. It isn't a "meme" that SO community has hostile users. I hand out a lot of votes when browsing SO because so f many people don't really deserve the downvotes.

black-tea 8y ago

Why do you work for Google for no pay? OpenStreetMap always needs work. Help the community.

duiker101 8y ago
Honestly for me it boils down to Google maps being just a superior app. It's not even the amount of data in itself(which is a lot already tbh) but just the app being better. I don't think I have seen a decent OSM app yet.
- gordo4 8y ago
  OsmAnd is far superior to Google Maps in my opinion, especially for backcountry offline navigation. It's one of the most important apps when traveling abroad or when cell service is spotty. Google Maps is basically useless in rural South America, for example... and OSM is actually more up to date than Google Maps when it comes to river crossings, etc... and POI data is available for offline use. Google Maps can't even do offline navigation and rerouting.
  - ant6n 8y ago
    Is that the ugly one where you have to download huge regions to offline just to look at where you at right now?
    - tinix 8y ago
      Huge? Not so much... OsmAnd uses vector maps, which are very small, compared to "offline" Google Maps tiles. A couple hundred megabytes for an entire country's road system is not "huge".
      - jpatokal 8y ago
        Like the mobile app itself, Google Maps offline maps are also vector based.

gniv 8y ago

> What Google needs to do is lock information for verified businesses or businesses they’re directly scraping from the Corp location pages. Here are a few problems with that: 1) Businesses also have incentives to spam by adding lots of vaguely-related words to names, categories and description. 2) Businesses forget that they claimed the listing, and so stale info remains locked for too long.

mcv 8y ago

And sometimes fixes to incorrect information get rejected. My first edit was to correct an error where a restaurant had the website of a nearby shop listed. The website contained no information whatsoever about the restaurant (to my frustration, because I wanted to eat there). My removal of the website got rejected. I think I needed to offer proof of some sort. Adding info is easier: my second edit was adding opening hours to a shop. No proof needed. My submitted hours were not the official opening hours, because the shop always opens 15 minutes too late.