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I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit sys

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion. It's a tool ripe for abuse and political control. Think of all the gamification bullshit we've dealt with, and realize that it's now going to be deployed on a massive scale to shape the behaviors, incentives, and punishments of the whole populace, wielded by a government known to persecute subsets of it. And I'm sure it's going to be used for some good. There will be a lot of good results that's come of it, and that will be its selling point. But it undoubtedly will also be used to suppress specific ideas and people. It will be a massively effective too for that. Think of the coded racism used in the Southern Strategy in US politics as explained by Lee Atwater. By abstracting away everything and converting it to whatever statistics you want, you have total plausible deniability over any targeted oppression you want.

will_brown 8y ago
>I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it? You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to the check cashing/cash advance store. Look at social mobility in this country, pretty sure it’s the lowest of all first world economies, it’s pretty dystopian.
- Just_Smith 8y ago
  I'm a bit surprised that people in this thread don't seem to understand the parallels between social and economic status. It's not some grand revelation either - it's pretty much common knowledge. There's obviously a distinct difference between these two systems, but to say "China's social credit system has nothing in common with America's financial credit system" is pretty ignorant to how important having good credit is to being successful in America.
  - will_brown 8y ago
    And I tried to acknowledge the difference in my original post, by saying it’s “just a different way to skin the cat.” But that’s why I added the edit, because I had to acknowledge people in the US love the credit system like people in China will love the social credit system. That’s unfortunately probably the most important parallel the people welcome the systems.
    - Just_Smith 8y ago
      I agree - so long as financial credit comes with perks, people are going to be apologists for its flaws. Now that I work in software, keeping good credit is a non-issue. However, when I was making less than $10k/yr, it was the bane of my existence.
  - lifeformed 8y ago
    Yes they're related, but think of the differences: US credit score = 35% payment history + 30% debt burden + 15% credit history + 10% credit types + 10% recent credit searches. Used for lending, and sometimes for leasing and employment. Social credit system = a black box of metrics that can change at any time, relating to your speech, browsing history, political ideas, entertainment choices, shopping history, dating behavior, etc. Used to limit options in travel, education, dating, purchasing, internet speed, etc. If the US credit system starts becoming more like the latter, then yes, that's cause for concern. But so far its problems are of a very different scale than a social credit system.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  Give me a break. You don’t need good credit for the vast majority of jobs.
- exolymph 8y ago
  > Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to the check cashing/cash advance store. How do you think bank accounts, minimum wage jobs, or check-cashing places work? Do you think they check your credit before you can access them? Some jobs do, sure, but not all, and you can absolutely deposit money or cash a check without having established credit.
kazagistar 8y ago
They shouldn't be equated exactly, but the difference is one of severity, not of kind. It's important to keep in mind that the western credit system has victims too, and is a tool for behavior control too, just not nearly to the same severity, but should be carefully tracked for fear of scaling up to the exact horror the Chinese one represents, if not worse.
- lifeformed 8y ago
  I agree. It seems like many disagreements come down to matters of magnitude. It's easy to conflate things for being the same kind, when they are different in scale. It's an aspect of the all-too-common black-and-white binary argumentation that is much easier to digest.
liftbigweights 8y ago
> While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. They are one and the same. The "financial" rating affects where you can live ( try getting an apartment or a mortgage ) and where you work. Sure it isn't as draconian as the chinese version but it's pervades much of your life.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  No. One rates your ability to take on debt by how you handled previous debts, the other involves rating your amount of freedom according to a fuzzy social score. Very different....
  - icebraining 8y ago
    How is getting an apartment "taking on debt"?
    - rubyfan 8y ago
      Lease agreements typically entitle one to a property for a fixed period for financially agreed terms. It’s incredibly hard to evict a bad tenant. One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. An understanding of ones debt to income ratio is also useful in predicting their future ability to hold up their end of the lease. It’s actually a completely reasonable use of credit report.
      - will_brown 8y ago
        >One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. And I’m sure China could easily argue prior social behavior is a huge predictor of future social behavior. But the real problem in the US is you have an entire class of people who have no credit history (the poor), not bad credit history, but no credit history. You aren’t wrong if I’m lending money I’d want to know debt to income ratio, but why does that matter to getting a job? If you have no credit history and can’t get a good job, how do you think that is going to effect your income and access to credit. Look at the studies of impact of credit history, it facilitates keeping poor people poor (limits social mobility).

will_brown 8y ago

>I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it? You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to the check cashing/cash advance store. Look at social mobility in this country, pretty sure it’s the lowest of all first world economies, it’s pretty dystopian.

Just_Smith 8y ago
I'm a bit surprised that people in this thread don't seem to understand the parallels between social and economic status. It's not some grand revelation either - it's pretty much common knowledge. There's obviously a distinct difference between these two systems, but to say "China's social credit system has nothing in common with America's financial credit system" is pretty ignorant to how important having good credit is to being successful in America.
- will_brown 8y ago
  And I tried to acknowledge the difference in my original post, by saying it’s “just a different way to skin the cat.” But that’s why I added the edit, because I had to acknowledge people in the US love the credit system like people in China will love the social credit system. That’s unfortunately probably the most important parallel the people welcome the systems.
  - Just_Smith 8y ago
    I agree - so long as financial credit comes with perks, people are going to be apologists for its flaws. Now that I work in software, keeping good credit is a non-issue. However, when I was making less than $10k/yr, it was the bane of my existence.
- lifeformed 8y ago
  Yes they're related, but think of the differences: US credit score = 35% payment history + 30% debt burden + 15% credit history + 10% credit types + 10% recent credit searches. Used for lending, and sometimes for leasing and employment. Social credit system = a black box of metrics that can change at any time, relating to your speech, browsing history, political ideas, entertainment choices, shopping history, dating behavior, etc. Used to limit options in travel, education, dating, purchasing, internet speed, etc. If the US credit system starts becoming more like the latter, then yes, that's cause for concern. But so far its problems are of a very different scale than a social credit system.
ryanwaggoner 8y ago
Give me a break. You don’t need good credit for the vast majority of jobs.
exolymph 8y ago
> Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to the check cashing/cash advance store. How do you think bank accounts, minimum wage jobs, or check-cashing places work? Do you think they check your credit before you can access them? Some jobs do, sure, but not all, and you can absolutely deposit money or cash a check without having established credit.

kazagistar 8y ago

They shouldn't be equated exactly, but the difference is one of severity, not of kind. It's important to keep in mind that the western credit system has victims too, and is a tool for behavior control too, just not nearly to the same severity, but should be carefully tracked for fear of scaling up to the exact horror the Chinese one represents, if not worse.

lifeformed 8y ago
I agree. It seems like many disagreements come down to matters of magnitude. It's easy to conflate things for being the same kind, when they are different in scale. It's an aspect of the all-too-common black-and-white binary argumentation that is much easier to digest.

liftbigweights 8y ago

> While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. They are one and the same. The "financial" rating affects where you can live ( try getting an apartment or a mortgage ) and where you work. Sure it isn't as draconian as the chinese version but it's pervades much of your life.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
No. One rates your ability to take on debt by how you handled previous debts, the other involves rating your amount of freedom according to a fuzzy social score. Very different....
- icebraining 8y ago
  How is getting an apartment "taking on debt"?
  - rubyfan 8y ago
    Lease agreements typically entitle one to a property for a fixed period for financially agreed terms. It’s incredibly hard to evict a bad tenant. One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. An understanding of ones debt to income ratio is also useful in predicting their future ability to hold up their end of the lease. It’s actually a completely reasonable use of credit report.
    - will_brown 8y ago
      >One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. And I’m sure China could easily argue prior social behavior is a huge predictor of future social behavior. But the real problem in the US is you have an entire class of people who have no credit history (the poor), not bad credit history, but no credit history. You aren’t wrong if I’m lending money I’d want to know debt to income ratio, but why does that matter to getting a job? If you have no credit history and can’t get a good job, how do you think that is going to effect your income and access to credit. Look at the studies of impact of credit history, it facilitates keeping poor people poor (limits social mobility).