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You think the types of governmental control are the same between US and China? It seems clear that at least a few US corporations successfully resist meddling a

by TwoBit 8y ago

You think the types of governmental control are the same between US and China? It seems clear that at least a few US corporations successfully resist meddling attempts.

manicdee 8y ago
Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. If it came to a war, the US and China are both going to shut down whatever communications channels their “enemies” are using. This is just one of the reasons that US DoD is so interested in SpaceX’s StarLink.
- tivert 8y ago
  > Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. Having your shipments intercepted en-route by spies is very different than directly cooperating with those spies. None of those interceptions required cooperation by Cisco. Cisco complained to the government about the interceptions: https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama-cisco-ceo-complains-about-nsa-allegations https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama... Apple has also famously resisted government demands to develop a backdoor for its hardware. IIRC, all indications were that the government's demands would have been rejected by the court system had the case progressed far enough to provide a definitive answer.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    What we think happened: Cisco complained to the government ... Apple resisted government demands. What really happened: Intelligence Community: "So, we'll demand you backdoor devices, we'll intercept a few and modify them, and then you'll public complain and resist, and then after the media frenzy has died down..." /tinfoilhat
  - geofft 8y ago
    Cisco complained! That does so much... a customer getting a backdoored router doesn't really care if Huawei consented to adding the backdoor or Cisco didn't, they still get a backdoor. Huawei says, in public, that it's important to their reputation to be known to ship un-backdoored devices. Cisco says the exact same thing.
- gsich 8y ago
  Ciscos consistent feature in their products is their built-in backdoor.
baby 8y ago
You pretty much have no idea what's happening in China. These companies are not happy at all to cooperate believe me. Jack Ma has expressed this many times, as much as he could without getting in bad terms with his own government. These companies are playing around in order not to comply with the government (which is exactly what US companies are doing as well). Pressure from the public or from other countries should get these companies some leverage when negotiating with the gov.
- kiriakasis 8y ago
  But this is the point, apple was able to say no. In China you can play around but can't say no for too long. I don't know much about China but the level of control the government has there is incomparable to any western country
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Apple was publicly able to say no, but what happened in private? In fact TLAs would want it to appear that they'd been rebuffed -- there's not much point in them having access to devices that no one will use because they know about that access.
    - mynameisvlad 8y ago
      Your tinfoil hat is on a bit tight. Apple has a vested interest in being honest and transparent about this specifically because nobody would trust them if it was discovered that they'd been secretly cooperating with everything in private while denying it in public. A revelation like that would literally ruin them as a company, and that's generally not the end goal for most companies.
  - quickben 8y ago
    What did Apple say no to? Last timei checked they served everything they were asked for.
    - ksec 8y ago
AsyncAwait 8y ago
As someone in Europe, I don't think the Chinese government has much of a reach, or even interest, as far as myself goes. I don't like them, but they're more regionally oriented. Whereas the U.S. government regularly meddles around the globe, no matter where you are.
- Lio 8y ago
  I don't think they are regionally oriented. If recent attacks on European aerospace intellectual property have shown anything it's that the Chinese government is determined to undermine any foreign technology sector that surpasses its own.
  - lustysocietyorg 8y ago
    IMO this "attack on intellectual property" is probably used to create their own world class technology. The USA attacked European IP centuries ago to build its own industry. Probably South Korea and Japan and any other advanced country did the same in the past to learn and to advance ASAP. The world has become a better place because of it. But compare attacks on IP with politically relevant incidents like these: - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-german-chancellery-decades-wikileaks-claims-merkel https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-g... - https://www.thelocal.de/20160223/nsa-eavesdropped-on-merkels-intimate-conversations https://www.thelocal.de/20160223/nsa-eavesdropped-on-merkels... - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/21/british-spies-hacked-into-belgacom-on-ministers-orders-claims-report https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/21/british-spie...
    - Lio 8y ago
      You seem to be advocating for the end of all European intellectual property rules. Do you think that European businesses should give up trying to protect their industrial secrets all? I'm guessing you'd say not but that's just a guess. Maybe the world would be better off but unless that's reciprocated by those Chinese companies creating world class technology based on European work then it's just suicide for European industry. If Chinese companies are able to steal industrial secrets that allow them to produce better cars cheaper than say VW or BMW that might be very good for the world but not so great for European jobs. You might be fine with that but I, personally, am not.

by TwoBit 8y ago

You think the types of governmental control are the same between US and China? It seems clear that at least a few US corporations successfully resist meddling attempts.

manicdee 8y ago

Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. If it came to a war, the US and China are both going to shut down whatever communications channels their “enemies” are using. This is just one of the reasons that US DoD is so interested in SpaceX’s StarLink.

tivert 8y ago
> Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. Having your shipments intercepted en-route by spies is very different than directly cooperating with those spies. None of those interceptions required cooperation by Cisco. Cisco complained to the government about the interceptions: https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama-cisco-ceo-complains-about-nsa-allegations https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama... Apple has also famously resisted government demands to develop a backdoor for its hardware. IIRC, all indications were that the government's demands would have been rejected by the court system had the case progressed far enough to provide a definitive answer.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  What we think happened: Cisco complained to the government ... Apple resisted government demands. What really happened: Intelligence Community: "So, we'll demand you backdoor devices, we'll intercept a few and modify them, and then you'll public complain and resist, and then after the media frenzy has died down..." /tinfoilhat
- geofft 8y ago
  Cisco complained! That does so much... a customer getting a backdoored router doesn't really care if Huawei consented to adding the backdoor or Cisco didn't, they still get a backdoor. Huawei says, in public, that it's important to their reputation to be known to ship un-backdoored devices. Cisco says the exact same thing.
gsich 8y ago
Ciscos consistent feature in their products is their built-in backdoor.

baby 8y ago

You pretty much have no idea what's happening in China. These companies are not happy at all to cooperate believe me. Jack Ma has expressed this many times, as much as he could without getting in bad terms with his own government. These companies are playing around in order not to comply with the government (which is exactly what US companies are doing as well). Pressure from the public or from other countries should get these companies some leverage when negotiating with the gov.

kiriakasis 8y ago
But this is the point, apple was able to say no. In China you can play around but can't say no for too long. I don't know much about China but the level of control the government has there is incomparable to any western country
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Apple was publicly able to say no, but what happened in private? In fact TLAs would want it to appear that they'd been rebuffed -- there's not much point in them having access to devices that no one will use because they know about that access.
  - mynameisvlad 8y ago
    Your tinfoil hat is on a bit tight. Apple has a vested interest in being honest and transparent about this specifically because nobody would trust them if it was discovered that they'd been secretly cooperating with everything in private while denying it in public. A revelation like that would literally ruin them as a company, and that's generally not the end goal for most companies.
- quickben 8y ago
  What did Apple say no to? Last timei checked they served everything they were asked for.
  - ksec 8y ago

AsyncAwait 8y ago

As someone in Europe, I don't think the Chinese government has much of a reach, or even interest, as far as myself goes. I don't like them, but they're more regionally oriented. Whereas the U.S. government regularly meddles around the globe, no matter where you are.

Lio 8y ago
I don't think they are regionally oriented. If recent attacks on European aerospace intellectual property have shown anything it's that the Chinese government is determined to undermine any foreign technology sector that surpasses its own.
- lustysocietyorg 8y ago
  IMO this "attack on intellectual property" is probably used to create their own world class technology. The USA attacked European IP centuries ago to build its own industry. Probably South Korea and Japan and any other advanced country did the same in the past to learn and to advance ASAP. The world has become a better place because of it. But compare attacks on IP with politically relevant incidents like these: - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-german-chancellery-decades-wikileaks-claims-merkel https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-g... - https://www.thelocal.de/20160223/nsa-eavesdropped-on-merkels-intimate-conversations https://www.thelocal.de/20160223/nsa-eavesdropped-on-merkels... - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/21/british-spies-hacked-into-belgacom-on-ministers-orders-claims-report https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/21/british-spie...
  - Lio 8y ago
    You seem to be advocating for the end of all European intellectual property rules. Do you think that European businesses should give up trying to protect their industrial secrets all? I'm guessing you'd say not but that's just a guess. Maybe the world would be better off but unless that's reciprocated by those Chinese companies creating world class technology based on European work then it's just suicide for European industry. If Chinese companies are able to steal industrial secrets that allow them to produce better cars cheaper than say VW or BMW that might be very good for the world but not so great for European jobs. You might be fine with that but I, personally, am not.