8 ms·

The alternative to Huawei for telecommunications equipment isn't a US corporation so framing it as the US vs China serves no purpose. I'll be happy if neither t

The alternative to Huawei for telecommunications equipment isn't a US corporation so framing it as the US vs China serves no purpose. I'll be happy if neither the US nor China made telecommunications equipment for countries. I don't understand why people feel the need to defend Chinese mega corporations. edit: I managed to offend a few people with this comment

jake_the_third 8y ago
I don't think it's defending chinese companies as much as it is highlighting that companies on both sides are susceptible to more or less the same type of government control. I personally think it's something worth mentioning when it's the most common reason cited for avoiding a chinese company.
- friedman23 8y ago
  > as it is highlighting that companies on both sides are susceptible to more or less the same type of government control. Except they aren't. Just the fact that you mention "both" sides shows your ignorance. The alternative to Huawei, as I have mentioned, is not an American corporation it is a European one (Ericsson or Nokia). This isn't a case of the American government forcing allies to abandon Huawei so an American corporation can profit.
  - kungtotte 8y ago
    What about the rest of the world? Samsung and LG are both Korea-based, and Sony is from Japan.
    - friedman23 8y ago
      I wasn't aware that they had 5g offerings but if they do they are obviously choices too. I'm not aware of any American 5g offerings.
      - kungtotte 8y ago
        Maybe if you're concerned about privacy you'll have to settle for 4G for a while...
      - abbe_k 8y ago
        Samsung are developing 5G networks. Don't think LG or Sony has any though.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Nokia merged with Alcatel-Lucent, so it is not purely European anymore. Ericsson works on 5G with Fujitsu, so that looks more like US-free option.
    - pilsetnieks 8y ago
      It is my understanding that Nokia _acquired_ Alcatel-Lucent, and the only significant part of that conglomerate still in the US is Bell Labs (which are also now owned by Nokia.)
    - iagovar 8y ago
      Do euro vendors provide hardware for the whole chain? I mean, from dslams, to routers, olts, cpe etc If wanted to set up an ISP could I without buying non-eu vendors?
- TwoBit 8y ago
  You think the types of governmental control are the same between US and China? It seems clear that at least a few US corporations successfully resist meddling attempts.
  - manicdee 8y ago
    Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. If it came to a war, the US and China are both going to shut down whatever communications channels their “enemies” are using. This is just one of the reasons that US DoD is so interested in SpaceX’s StarLink.
    - tivert 8y ago
      > Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. Having your shipments intercepted en-route by spies is very different than directly cooperating with those spies. None of those interceptions required cooperation by Cisco. Cisco complained to the government about the interceptions: https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama-cisco-ceo-complains-about-nsa-allegations https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama... Apple has also famously resisted government demands to develop a backdoor for its hardware. IIRC, all indications were that the government's demands would have been rejected by the court system had the case progressed far enough to provide a definitive answer.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        What we think happened: Cisco complained to the government ... Apple resisted government demands. What really happened: Intelligence Community: "So, we'll demand you backdoor devices, we'll intercept a few and modify them, and then you'll public complain and resist, and then after the media frenzy has died down..." /tinfoilhat
      - geofft 8y ago
        Cisco complained! That does so much... a customer getting a backdoored router doesn't really care if Huawei consented to adding the backdoor or Cisco didn't, they still get a backdoor. Huawei says, in public, that it's important to their reputation to be known to ship un-backdoored devices. Cisco says the exact same thing.
- scoot_718 8y ago
  Chinese government control is much worse, are you high?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dang 8y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  Every time China is critized, the US is brought up. Maybe just to "highlight" something, but here it takes up several pages before any actual discussion of the story. Every time the US is critized, China isn't brought up. Wouldn't that make great sense, too? "Snowden says the NSA X" "yeah, but China does Y!". I don't think I've seen that once, whereas "but the US!" is a constant companion.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    That's just this forum being primarily USA based/focused people.
    - PavlovsCat 8y ago
      I agree that responsibility matters. Like, I have opinions on things going on in the US or China, but I'm much more responsible for things my government does, or what companies I support with money do. And in this case, it's even fair to point out the hipocrisy of the US asking allies to drop Huawei for reasons smart allies should also drop US produced things for. But then again, we know all that, and we actually do have threads about that stuff as well, so why not also have one about Huawei.
  - gdy 8y ago
    It's the US who pretend to be exceptional and to have moral high ground.
eksemplar 8y ago
I’m not sure why this was downvoted so heavily, because it has a point. The US is obviously not a trustworthy partner, but neither is China. At least American companies still reside in a somewhat democracy where they’ll actually protect our rights, even if we’re European. Sure it’s not for noble goals, they want to make money, and they won’t if they don’t care for data security. Google cloud is the prime example of this. The European public sector is spending billions on Clouds these years, and none of that is going to Google, because Google doesn’t protect your data the same way Microsoft does. I can physically visit the Azure instances that house our data, and nothing but our data, and it never leaves the union. Maybe the NSA still listens in, maybe China does too, but it’s not legal for them to do so the way it would be in the Alibaba or google clouds.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  Google cloud is the prime example of this. The European public sector is spending billions on Clouds these years, and none of that is going to Google, because Google doesn’t protect your data the same way Microsoft does. What does Microsoft do that other cloud providers like Google do not do? If I store my data in GCP region europe-west3 (Frankfurt) are you saying that Google will leak that data to some third party or send it out of that region? Maybe the NSA still listens in, maybe China does too, but it’s not legal for them to do so the way it would be in the Alibaba or google clouds. What is the legal difference between the NSA intercepting European GCP traffic and European Azure traffic?
  - jacobush 8y ago
    "Google will leak that data to some third party or send it out of that region?" Yes. Every municipality around here goes with Microsoft or their own on premises installations for this very reason.
    - saiya-jin 8y ago
      Strange schizophrenia from Microsoft - having actually presumably secure cloud instances on site, and actively making their other products less secure by monitoring users of their core OS and Office suites even if users specifically want to prevent that, even the top enterprise editions. I understand those are different parts of the company managed by different persons, but at the end, top of the pyramid is the same. Corporations are like people - they don't change. You can put on different mask every day, but underneath its the same flesh and bones (or decision makers in this case). I would be wary of the notion that Microsoft is somehow a good moral company in one specific area, when it is amoral in others.
endorphone 8y ago
But I'm not "defending" anyone. I am pointing out that it's a bit rich for the US to be the ones ringing the alarm bell.
linkregister 8y ago
Alcatel is French-owned, you can buy their equipment. P.S. using non-U.S. and non-Chinese equipment won't protect you from a hack. Both countries are known to have successful vulnerability exploitation programs.

jake_the_third 8y ago

I don't think it's defending chinese companies as much as it is highlighting that companies on both sides are susceptible to more or less the same type of government control. I personally think it's something worth mentioning when it's the most common reason cited for avoiding a chinese company.

friedman23 8y ago
> as it is highlighting that companies on both sides are susceptible to more or less the same type of government control. Except they aren't. Just the fact that you mention "both" sides shows your ignorance. The alternative to Huawei, as I have mentioned, is not an American corporation it is a European one (Ericsson or Nokia). This isn't a case of the American government forcing allies to abandon Huawei so an American corporation can profit.
- kungtotte 8y ago
  What about the rest of the world? Samsung and LG are both Korea-based, and Sony is from Japan.
  - friedman23 8y ago
    I wasn't aware that they had 5g offerings but if they do they are obviously choices too. I'm not aware of any American 5g offerings.
    - kungtotte 8y ago
      Maybe if you're concerned about privacy you'll have to settle for 4G for a while...
    - abbe_k 8y ago
      Samsung are developing 5G networks. Don't think LG or Sony has any though.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Nokia merged with Alcatel-Lucent, so it is not purely European anymore. Ericsson works on 5G with Fujitsu, so that looks more like US-free option.
  - pilsetnieks 8y ago
    It is my understanding that Nokia _acquired_ Alcatel-Lucent, and the only significant part of that conglomerate still in the US is Bell Labs (which are also now owned by Nokia.)
  - iagovar 8y ago
    Do euro vendors provide hardware for the whole chain? I mean, from dslams, to routers, olts, cpe etc If wanted to set up an ISP could I without buying non-eu vendors?
TwoBit 8y ago
You think the types of governmental control are the same between US and China? It seems clear that at least a few US corporations successfully resist meddling attempts.
- manicdee 8y ago
  Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. If it came to a war, the US and China are both going to shut down whatever communications channels their “enemies” are using. This is just one of the reasons that US DoD is so interested in SpaceX’s StarLink.
  - tivert 8y ago
    > Yet we have photos and video of US “customs” intercepting Cisco shipments and loading backdoored firmware or tampering with the hardware. They boast about it. Having your shipments intercepted en-route by spies is very different than directly cooperating with those spies. None of those interceptions required cooperation by Cisco. Cisco complained to the government about the interceptions: https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama-cisco-ceo-complains-about-nsa-allegations https://www.recode.net/2014/5/18/11627004/in-letter-to-obama... Apple has also famously resisted government demands to develop a backdoor for its hardware. IIRC, all indications were that the government's demands would have been rejected by the court system had the case progressed far enough to provide a definitive answer.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      What we think happened: Cisco complained to the government ... Apple resisted government demands. What really happened: Intelligence Community: "So, we'll demand you backdoor devices, we'll intercept a few and modify them, and then you'll public complain and resist, and then after the media frenzy has died down..." /tinfoilhat
    - geofft 8y ago
      Cisco complained! That does so much... a customer getting a backdoored router doesn't really care if Huawei consented to adding the backdoor or Cisco didn't, they still get a backdoor. Huawei says, in public, that it's important to their reputation to be known to ship un-backdoored devices. Cisco says the exact same thing.
scoot_718 8y ago
Chinese government control is much worse, are you high?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 8y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?
PavlovsCat 8y ago
Every time China is critized, the US is brought up. Maybe just to "highlight" something, but here it takes up several pages before any actual discussion of the story. Every time the US is critized, China isn't brought up. Wouldn't that make great sense, too? "Snowden says the NSA X" "yeah, but China does Y!". I don't think I've seen that once, whereas "but the US!" is a constant companion.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  That's just this forum being primarily USA based/focused people.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    I agree that responsibility matters. Like, I have opinions on things going on in the US or China, but I'm much more responsible for things my government does, or what companies I support with money do. And in this case, it's even fair to point out the hipocrisy of the US asking allies to drop Huawei for reasons smart allies should also drop US produced things for. But then again, we know all that, and we actually do have threads about that stuff as well, so why not also have one about Huawei.
- gdy 8y ago
  It's the US who pretend to be exceptional and to have moral high ground.

eksemplar 8y ago

I’m not sure why this was downvoted so heavily, because it has a point. The US is obviously not a trustworthy partner, but neither is China. At least American companies still reside in a somewhat democracy where they’ll actually protect our rights, even if we’re European. Sure it’s not for noble goals, they want to make money, and they won’t if they don’t care for data security. Google cloud is the prime example of this. The European public sector is spending billions on Clouds these years, and none of that is going to Google, because Google doesn’t protect your data the same way Microsoft does. I can physically visit the Azure instances that house our data, and nothing but our data, and it never leaves the union. Maybe the NSA still listens in, maybe China does too, but it’s not legal for them to do so the way it would be in the Alibaba or google clouds.

Johnny555 8y ago
Google cloud is the prime example of this. The European public sector is spending billions on Clouds these years, and none of that is going to Google, because Google doesn’t protect your data the same way Microsoft does. What does Microsoft do that other cloud providers like Google do not do? If I store my data in GCP region europe-west3 (Frankfurt) are you saying that Google will leak that data to some third party or send it out of that region? Maybe the NSA still listens in, maybe China does too, but it’s not legal for them to do so the way it would be in the Alibaba or google clouds. What is the legal difference between the NSA intercepting European GCP traffic and European Azure traffic?
- jacobush 8y ago
  "Google will leak that data to some third party or send it out of that region?" Yes. Every municipality around here goes with Microsoft or their own on premises installations for this very reason.
  - saiya-jin 8y ago
    Strange schizophrenia from Microsoft - having actually presumably secure cloud instances on site, and actively making their other products less secure by monitoring users of their core OS and Office suites even if users specifically want to prevent that, even the top enterprise editions. I understand those are different parts of the company managed by different persons, but at the end, top of the pyramid is the same. Corporations are like people - they don't change. You can put on different mask every day, but underneath its the same flesh and bones (or decision makers in this case). I would be wary of the notion that Microsoft is somehow a good moral company in one specific area, when it is amoral in others.

endorphone 8y ago

But I'm not "defending" anyone. I am pointing out that it's a bit rich for the US to be the ones ringing the alarm bell.

linkregister 8y ago

Alcatel is French-owned, you can buy their equipment. P.S. using non-U.S. and non-Chinese equipment won't protect you from a hack. Both countries are known to have successful vulnerability exploitation programs.