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A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years, I think companies would be more open to building junior devs. Does anyone have ideas about how to make this work?

LoSboccacc 8y ago
Embed salary upgrades within the employment contract. We already know jumping gives on average a 15% salary increase every two years, so you just have to beat or match that. Now people might still leave for more interesting projects, but you get one of the larger motivational factors out of the way. People often leave because negotiating a salary upgrade is way harder than navigating an interview. So, unless your hidden motive is to have cheap labor just write down in the contract that every two year the salary will increase 15% minimum, unrelated to objective bonus and all that bullshit. The you have it. The secret for training and retaining talent in a competitive market.
- ben_jones 8y ago
  The problem from zero to hero is more than that. Entry-level college graduate non-developer positions might net 50-60k even in the Bay Area. So if you hire a 22 year old with a degree at that base and then teach them how to be a react pro over the course of two years they will then be eligible for 100k+ salaries. That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down. If Starbucks starts making coffee 3x as good will people happily start paying $12 for coffee?
  - FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
    If you can't pay the guy who has spend the last two years learning everything about your business and your tech stack the going rate for a programmer with two years experience, how are you going to afford new hires at that rate?
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    Those positions are in exceedingly short supply. Also contact can follow whatever salary curve your local market has, so this whole point is moot
  - patmcc 8y ago
    >>That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down. Because businesses would rather have a person leave and then hire someone at 1.5x or 2x their salary than just pay the first person 2x what they were making the year before. This happens all the time. Employers want to have 2x people at 1x prices, and that doesn't work for long.
    - arvinsim 8y ago
      I am not business savvy so I am curious why businesses choose to do this.
      - sergiosgc 8y ago
        It's very simple, really. If you only raise salaries on personnel rotation, you do not have to raise salaries of those employees that do not jump ship. You save a bundle if you have a large workforce. This attitude introduces a skew where your workforce gets progressively filled with people who do not switch jobs. It's a dangerous outcome, to be managed with care. If you get stuck with those who do not switch jobs because they are too incompetent, you have a big problem. If you manage to get those who are competent but content, and not very concerned with higher earnings, you have the ideal result: stable, competent, performant team, with controlled costs.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - collyw 8y ago
      One place I worked "wasn't able" to give me a pay rise, yet they were able to hire 1 and a half people to replace me (one full time and one on split between projects).
      - geekbird 8y ago
        I had the same thing happen: They co7uldn't take me from contract to permanent at the pay rate I was getting contract, but they could hire TWO younger men to replace me (both of whom left after six months of 10 hour days, 6 days a week at lowball salary.)
  - Mikeb85 8y ago
    > If Starbucks starts making coffee 3x as good will people happily start paying $12 for coffee? When Starbucks entered the market here, their $5 coffee was about 3x the price of the status quo cup. Also, if businesses can't pay the market rate for labour (by definition, the money the employee can get in an open market is the market rate) then they don't have a sustainable business model.
- rightbyte 8y ago
  I wonder if that job jumping statistics is "poisoned" by causality. You could argue that head hunted employees that's a good match for the job they leave for probably get higher salary. The current job of a dev is more likely to be the first job for the dev (after job jumping it's never the first job). Since the dev age pyramid is quite base heavy, job jumping is a indirect measurement of more experience. Just being able to job jump is a indirect measure that you are sought after and that brings higher wages.
jamestimmins 8y ago
People stick around when they're challenged, paid competitively, and treated like people/adults. I suspect that one of these has broken down.
dangwu 8y ago
Give proper annual raises to pay people what they’re worth instead of barely keeping up with inflation. After two years, you’re essentially a mid-level engineer and the money you can command is way more than what a junior developer with two annual “raises” is typically paid.
- melkiaur 8y ago
  It's not just the salary. It's often about personal growth and wanderlust. Let me try an odd comparison: after graduating, would you choose to live with your parents if they fed you even more and offered you an even bigger room with more furniture ?
  - arvinsim 8y ago
    Careful about using that analogy. While the Western world would most likely choose to leave, the Eastern world would more likely do the opposite.
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      It isn’t even true for the Western world. More like Northwestern Europe and those polities founded by people from those countries. Italy has a high rate of adult unmarried children living at home and it’s definitely part of the West.
      - TheFattestNinja 8y ago
        As an Italian expat I can assure you it's not because people want to do that, but more due to the economical conjecture. Sure, there might be the odd one that is just "lazy", but p.much anyone you speak to <35 that hasn't left home yet will tell you that moving away from parental house is very high up in their priority, but they just can't afford that.
stormbrew 8y ago
The other replies touch on this, but I'm gonna get straight to the point: Does your friend give them actual, meaningful raises as they grow? Is he actually paying competitively to begin with? Because I think if you have this pattern that consistently, it's really likely that either you're underpaying to begin with or your raises suck or are not even present. I love working at small companies. It's by far my preference. But none of the small companies I've ever worked at offered anything like the comp and comp growth that the big corp I currently work at does. In fact, almost all of them offered me near zero compensation growth over time. And in real dollars that effectively means negative growth.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  It doesn't matter what his friend gives them. I can beat it _and_ for those who prefer just working on technical design and code with an experienced team, I can offer them that. No forced mentorship taking up your time. Since senior engineer mentorship is a different thing, I can easily give them a better job than the "you have to help train junior engineers" guy. Altogether, this is the best approach. The guys at two years and slightly more of experience have learned on the job from someone else and you can get them for relatively cheap vs. the huge opportunity cost of having your senior engineers mentor people if they don't want to.
  - sleepychu 8y ago
    Care to disclose where you work/what your org does?
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      No, I'd rather not. Angry HNers are best kept on the other side of the online/offline divide. Pleasant HNers I hope to see in real life :) The downside is I can't recruit off this user handle but c'est la vie.
- jhwang5 8y ago
  One could argue that their "raises" were paid in training
sheepmullet 8y ago
> very smart, fast learners Well that is your friends first problem! For a smart fast learner your friend isn’t providing a benefit worth the cost of a couple of years of low job growth. Your friend should look for candidates who are average learners, want a steady paycheck, and don’t want to do anything tech related outside of work hours.
- watwut 8y ago
  Smart fast learner is not in opposition to want steady paycheck nor with "does non tech outside of work". The two don't imply average learner either.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    Sure - I’m saying you want a combination of the three.
oh-kumudo 8y ago
Realistically it will work only when the job market liquidity is low. Think of Japan, where changing job is like a lifetime event, training is graciously provided, since the firm assumed that your loyalty is guaranteed. Or in case of some companies in China, where they can sue you if you quit your job before the agreed years are met on your contract. Both seems undesirable to me personally.
- lmiller1990 8y ago
  This may have been true for some industries historically in japan, however modern day softwave developers will change job every 2-3 years, same as in the west, for the same reasons.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    Is that true for Japanese people, or others hired on the salaryman track? If you’re hired out of university by Toyota, Sony or Rakuten isn’t it expected that you’ll be there until retirement?
- torgian 8y ago
  Shit, in China, it’s very common to jump ship after one or two years to get at 10-30% raise in many industries. Many of my students have done that.
ivanche 8y ago
Some companies in my home country have a clause in the contract which says approximately this: "The company will provide $FOUR_TIMES_MONTHLY_SALARY worth of training to employee. If employee leaves the company within first 2 years he will have to pay $TWO_TIMES_MONTHLY_SALARY back".
- why_only_15 8y ago
  What country is this from? In the US the case law is iffy and in practice it seems like companies aren't willing to go to court for it [0]. [0]: https://www.hrdive.com/news/when-an-employee-leaves-can-you-recoup-their-training-costs/510897/ https://www.hrdive.com/news/when-an-employee-leaves-can-you-...
watwut 8y ago
I have seen it work. I think that the key is in transition, company must change how it treats them as they progress. It is not just about salary and may not even primary salary. They need (not just want, but need) progressively more and more autonomy, bigger and bigger tasks, more and more responsibility. It also helps when the company culture/management is such that they can talk openly about their preferences and dislikes. It does not mean they should get everything they want, but there should be no "punishment" for saying what they want.
throwawayemp263 8y ago
I did this. I landed my first job out of school way below industry rates (like 2/3 typical junior in my area, mostly because I'm bad at negotiation), got a tiny (~2%) salary bump at 6mo and then nothing for a year. I never felt comfortable asking for a big raise, despite learning a lot and contributing a lot, and after a year the bump at 6mo felt more like a slap than anything. I jumped ship when another opportunity arose. They counter offered more than where I was going (double my current salary) but I didn't care, they had already eroded my trust (and confidence) and I didn't want anything to do with them any more (not that I actually said that, gotta follow my M.O.). My communication skills are my biggest flaw, especially around things like negotiating salary / talking about how I feel with the job. My technical communication is pretty fair, but I turn into a brick wall when we approach higher level meta conversations. I had plenty of opportunity and I wasn't mistreated, but being paid half what you think you're worth for a year with no change in sight really does a number on your confidence as a new player, and I never spoke up about it. I'll accept if that means it's my fault for not getting myself a raise, but I also won't feel bad about leaving after getting on the job training. If you want to keep your junior employees, pay them what they're worth now not what they were worth 6mo or a year ago. Switching companies is just the only way to force companies to reset the memory of what your salary used to be and reevaluate your value. That said, based on your other comments itt, that may not be the case in your example.
- collyw 8y ago
  I have been working for a"consultancy" (just an outsourcing place in reality). They low balled me on my initial salary but I was desperate to leave the previous job so I took it. After a year I was told I did a good job, but I saw not getting any increase because of salary bands. Like you this is not something I am especially good at negotiating. Took me less than a month to find someone who was offering significantly better salary, yet the consultancy seemed surprised when I told them. Suddenly the salary bands became a lot more flexible. I shouldn't need to have another job offer to get offered pay rise in line with inflation.
snarfy 8y ago
Pay them more. Isn't this why most junior devs leave? Because they are getting crap junior dev salaries? Once you've trained them they are no longer junior devs. The market certainly doesn't think so.
- ownagefool 8y ago
  Pay or being capped as the junior in other peoples eyes. In my first dev job, which was a fantastic job, some gatekeepers wouldn't give up access or tasks that I was better suited for. I was always going to be a bit younger, always the junior guy on the team, despite the fact I had relevant education and, in my opinion, was probably better at the job. Eventually I left and they were upset, but I didn't like being held back. Not everyone is like that though. Nowadays I build and run teams. I don't do any real technical work unless I need to show a junior a working example on how to do it. I'd rather watch them learn and grow.
ErrantX 8y ago
Graded salary based on a mix of tenure and experience, with clear performance goals tied to moving those salary grades up sooner. This works very well for our grad programme. Also; most people leave managers not companies. So if pay is right, and the people are otherwise a good fit, it might be company culture that pushes them out.
blauditore 8y ago
Frankly, I did the same. For me the reasons were: - Personal growth: Devs in that company were nice, but not stellar (I was the most "senior" one after a couple years), so I couldn't learn much from my peers. - Nature of the business: I moved from customer service to product development, which is a personal preference. - Money: The new place paid about 40% more.
arvinsim 8y ago
> if there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years, I think companies would be more open to building junior devs. There are already many companies that lock you in contract in exchange for comprehensive training.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  Which is mostly illegal in the developed world - its illegal in India but employers still try and enforce bonds. You could go back to the real apprentice (no modern apprentice shelf stacking mc jobs) route but in that case the apprentice signs for x years and you cant make them redundant - and you also not guaranteed a job after it finishes
qwertay 8y ago
I was lucky enough to get my first job when I knew very little and learned so much on the job and I am very thankful to the company for giving me that opportunity. I worked there for almost 3 years but for the last year I was basically doing an act of charity to the company (Fair because they did the same for me but there is only so long that I can work for almost free). They couldn't afford to pay me a livable amount and I was still working on super basic junior problems. If they had an option to move up and work on interesting problems than I would have stayed. I suspect many others are the same. The only people hiring juniors are the ones who can't afford to pay mid level devs and when the juniors become mid level what are they to do but leave.
Bombthecat 8y ago
Can't you make a binding / contract? My company did that with me. Basically forbidding me to quit for 12 months. Ways you can do it in germany: hire. After 2 or 3 months to see if he is a good fit. Give him a bonus to stay. The contract allows you for up to two years without issues, maybe three. If he quits earlier. He must pay back the bonus back (Valles Heilung des bonus in german, healing 9f bonus) after a few months he won't have a chance to get something better. You also can increase the salary in a bonus. Which he eeds to payback if he wants to leave early. Is that not possible in America?
- Merad 8y ago
  Roughly 2/3s of the states in the US have “right to work” laws, which basically means that either employer or employee can terminate the job at any time for basically any reason.
  - wikibob 8y ago
    You are thinking of "At will employment". Right to work means you can't be forced to join a union.
  - ascar 8y ago
    That's not what he is talking about. You can also always quit your job in Germany. He is talking about payments that are conditional upon you staying at the company for a certain amount of time. Relocation bonuses and stock option vesting are a very common type. If the bonus is high enough, it makes it very unattractive to quit. He is exaggerating though.
- ManlyBread 8y ago
  Why would anyone want to sign this kind of a contract when most companies don't play these games? Even as a junior I wouldn't see this as an opportunity, I would wonder what is wrong with the company.
  - ascar 8y ago
    The company offers you 10k bonus with the condition that you stay at least one more year. Otherwise you have to pay it back. If you intend to stay anyway or are not so keen on leaving, why should you say no? It's similar to stock option vesting and that is very common.
pier25 8y ago
Rise their pay when they become competent
rajacombinator 8y ago
Increase their salaries to fair market rates as they improve. Stop being a cheap bastard.
Mikeb85 8y ago
> Does anyone have ideas about how to make this work? Pay more. If they can make more money by switching jobs, you're not paying enough. They paid for their training by working for a lesser salary for 1-2 years, and it's not irrational for them to then want a competitive salary.
AchieveLife 8y ago
Culture and individualized incentives. Build a culture that aligns with the values of people hired and performers. Most people are motivated by positive feedback incentives. Others are motivated by monetary incentives. This guides career growth. Even if they leave, they will be back because most companies lack a unified culture with clear values.
smoe 8y ago
Here's how apprenticeships work in Switzerland: Before leaving school you try to find a company that is willing to take you on as an apprentice for a four year contract. Time is roughly split 50/50 at work in the company and specialized schools. The companies will cover the cost for the school, and pay a small amount to the trainee (~550$ first year to ~1400$ in the fourth year) On average companies lose money in the first 2 years, but make it up in the last two for an overall win. Especially for programming apprenticeships, this can be quite lucrative for the companies. So even if they leave immediately after the four years, it is not really bad for the company.
- ascar 8y ago
  Same in Germany, but programming apprentice and computer science major is a completely different thing, afaik also in Switzerland. No one coming from 3-5 years of unpaid (and depending on country expensive) university is up for this kind of payment and training. Though the majority of devs would be better of with a programming apprenticeship instead of an university degree in the first place. Only a fraction of devs work on these hard technical problems or complicated architectures that are actually engineering and not just programming.
sharemywin 8y ago
Pay them enough to stay?

LoSboccacc 8y ago

Embed salary upgrades within the employment contract. We already know jumping gives on average a 15% salary increase every two years, so you just have to beat or match that. Now people might still leave for more interesting projects, but you get one of the larger motivational factors out of the way. People often leave because negotiating a salary upgrade is way harder than navigating an interview. So, unless your hidden motive is to have cheap labor just write down in the contract that every two year the salary will increase 15% minimum, unrelated to objective bonus and all that bullshit. The you have it. The secret for training and retaining talent in a competitive market.

ben_jones 8y ago
The problem from zero to hero is more than that. Entry-level college graduate non-developer positions might net 50-60k even in the Bay Area. So if you hire a 22 year old with a degree at that base and then teach them how to be a react pro over the course of two years they will then be eligible for 100k+ salaries. That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down. If Starbucks starts making coffee 3x as good will people happily start paying $12 for coffee?
- FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
  If you can't pay the guy who has spend the last two years learning everything about your business and your tech stack the going rate for a programmer with two years experience, how are you going to afford new hires at that rate?
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  Those positions are in exceedingly short supply. Also contact can follow whatever salary curve your local market has, so this whole point is moot
- patmcc 8y ago
  >>That's a 200%+ increase that is very difficult for even modern businesses to take sitting down. Because businesses would rather have a person leave and then hire someone at 1.5x or 2x their salary than just pay the first person 2x what they were making the year before. This happens all the time. Employers want to have 2x people at 1x prices, and that doesn't work for long.
  - arvinsim 8y ago
    I am not business savvy so I am curious why businesses choose to do this.
    - sergiosgc 8y ago
      It's very simple, really. If you only raise salaries on personnel rotation, you do not have to raise salaries of those employees that do not jump ship. You save a bundle if you have a large workforce. This attitude introduces a skew where your workforce gets progressively filled with people who do not switch jobs. It's a dangerous outcome, to be managed with care. If you get stuck with those who do not switch jobs because they are too incompetent, you have a big problem. If you manage to get those who are competent but content, and not very concerned with higher earnings, you have the ideal result: stable, competent, performant team, with controlled costs.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - collyw 8y ago
    One place I worked "wasn't able" to give me a pay rise, yet they were able to hire 1 and a half people to replace me (one full time and one on split between projects).
    - geekbird 8y ago
      I had the same thing happen: They co7uldn't take me from contract to permanent at the pay rate I was getting contract, but they could hire TWO younger men to replace me (both of whom left after six months of 10 hour days, 6 days a week at lowball salary.)
- Mikeb85 8y ago
  > If Starbucks starts making coffee 3x as good will people happily start paying $12 for coffee? When Starbucks entered the market here, their $5 coffee was about 3x the price of the status quo cup. Also, if businesses can't pay the market rate for labour (by definition, the money the employee can get in an open market is the market rate) then they don't have a sustainable business model.
rightbyte 8y ago
I wonder if that job jumping statistics is "poisoned" by causality. You could argue that head hunted employees that's a good match for the job they leave for probably get higher salary. The current job of a dev is more likely to be the first job for the dev (after job jumping it's never the first job). Since the dev age pyramid is quite base heavy, job jumping is a indirect measurement of more experience. Just being able to job jump is a indirect measure that you are sought after and that brings higher wages.

jamestimmins 8y ago

People stick around when they're challenged, paid competitively, and treated like people/adults. I suspect that one of these has broken down.

dangwu 8y ago

Give proper annual raises to pay people what they’re worth instead of barely keeping up with inflation. After two years, you’re essentially a mid-level engineer and the money you can command is way more than what a junior developer with two annual “raises” is typically paid.

melkiaur 8y ago
It's not just the salary. It's often about personal growth and wanderlust. Let me try an odd comparison: after graduating, would you choose to live with your parents if they fed you even more and offered you an even bigger room with more furniture ?
- arvinsim 8y ago
  Careful about using that analogy. While the Western world would most likely choose to leave, the Eastern world would more likely do the opposite.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    It isn’t even true for the Western world. More like Northwestern Europe and those polities founded by people from those countries. Italy has a high rate of adult unmarried children living at home and it’s definitely part of the West.
    - TheFattestNinja 8y ago
      As an Italian expat I can assure you it's not because people want to do that, but more due to the economical conjecture. Sure, there might be the odd one that is just "lazy", but p.much anyone you speak to <35 that hasn't left home yet will tell you that moving away from parental house is very high up in their priority, but they just can't afford that.

stormbrew 8y ago

The other replies touch on this, but I'm gonna get straight to the point: Does your friend give them actual, meaningful raises as they grow? Is he actually paying competitively to begin with? Because I think if you have this pattern that consistently, it's really likely that either you're underpaying to begin with or your raises suck or are not even present. I love working at small companies. It's by far my preference. But none of the small companies I've ever worked at offered anything like the comp and comp growth that the big corp I currently work at does. In fact, almost all of them offered me near zero compensation growth over time. And in real dollars that effectively means negative growth.

scarejunba 8y ago
It doesn't matter what his friend gives them. I can beat it _and_ for those who prefer just working on technical design and code with an experienced team, I can offer them that. No forced mentorship taking up your time. Since senior engineer mentorship is a different thing, I can easily give them a better job than the "you have to help train junior engineers" guy. Altogether, this is the best approach. The guys at two years and slightly more of experience have learned on the job from someone else and you can get them for relatively cheap vs. the huge opportunity cost of having your senior engineers mentor people if they don't want to.
- sleepychu 8y ago
  Care to disclose where you work/what your org does?
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    No, I'd rather not. Angry HNers are best kept on the other side of the online/offline divide. Pleasant HNers I hope to see in real life :) The downside is I can't recruit off this user handle but c'est la vie.
jhwang5 8y ago
One could argue that their "raises" were paid in training

sheepmullet 8y ago

> very smart, fast learners Well that is your friends first problem! For a smart fast learner your friend isn’t providing a benefit worth the cost of a couple of years of low job growth. Your friend should look for candidates who are average learners, want a steady paycheck, and don’t want to do anything tech related outside of work hours.

watwut 8y ago
Smart fast learner is not in opposition to want steady paycheck nor with "does non tech outside of work". The two don't imply average learner either.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  Sure - I’m saying you want a combination of the three.

oh-kumudo 8y ago

Realistically it will work only when the job market liquidity is low. Think of Japan, where changing job is like a lifetime event, training is graciously provided, since the firm assumed that your loyalty is guaranteed. Or in case of some companies in China, where they can sue you if you quit your job before the agreed years are met on your contract. Both seems undesirable to me personally.

lmiller1990 8y ago
This may have been true for some industries historically in japan, however modern day softwave developers will change job every 2-3 years, same as in the west, for the same reasons.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Is that true for Japanese people, or others hired on the salaryman track? If you’re hired out of university by Toyota, Sony or Rakuten isn’t it expected that you’ll be there until retirement?
torgian 8y ago
Shit, in China, it’s very common to jump ship after one or two years to get at 10-30% raise in many industries. Many of my students have done that.

ivanche 8y ago

Some companies in my home country have a clause in the contract which says approximately this: "The company will provide $FOUR_TIMES_MONTHLY_SALARY worth of training to employee. If employee leaves the company within first 2 years he will have to pay $TWO_TIMES_MONTHLY_SALARY back".

why_only_15 8y ago
What country is this from? In the US the case law is iffy and in practice it seems like companies aren't willing to go to court for it [0]. [0]: https://www.hrdive.com/news/when-an-employee-leaves-can-you-recoup-their-training-costs/510897/ https://www.hrdive.com/news/when-an-employee-leaves-can-you-...

watwut 8y ago

I have seen it work. I think that the key is in transition, company must change how it treats them as they progress. It is not just about salary and may not even primary salary. They need (not just want, but need) progressively more and more autonomy, bigger and bigger tasks, more and more responsibility. It also helps when the company culture/management is such that they can talk openly about their preferences and dislikes. It does not mean they should get everything they want, but there should be no "punishment" for saying what they want.

throwawayemp263 8y ago

I did this. I landed my first job out of school way below industry rates (like 2/3 typical junior in my area, mostly because I'm bad at negotiation), got a tiny (~2%) salary bump at 6mo and then nothing for a year. I never felt comfortable asking for a big raise, despite learning a lot and contributing a lot, and after a year the bump at 6mo felt more like a slap than anything. I jumped ship when another opportunity arose. They counter offered more than where I was going (double my current salary) but I didn't care, they had already eroded my trust (and confidence) and I didn't want anything to do with them any more (not that I actually said that, gotta follow my M.O.). My communication skills are my biggest flaw, especially around things like negotiating salary / talking about how I feel with the job. My technical communication is pretty fair, but I turn into a brick wall when we approach higher level meta conversations. I had plenty of opportunity and I wasn't mistreated, but being paid half what you think you're worth for a year with no change in sight really does a number on your confidence as a new player, and I never spoke up about it. I'll accept if that means it's my fault for not getting myself a raise, but I also won't feel bad about leaving after getting on the job training. If you want to keep your junior employees, pay them what they're worth now not what they were worth 6mo or a year ago. Switching companies is just the only way to force companies to reset the memory of what your salary used to be and reevaluate your value. That said, based on your other comments itt, that may not be the case in your example.

collyw 8y ago
I have been working for a"consultancy" (just an outsourcing place in reality). They low balled me on my initial salary but I was desperate to leave the previous job so I took it. After a year I was told I did a good job, but I saw not getting any increase because of salary bands. Like you this is not something I am especially good at negotiating. Took me less than a month to find someone who was offering significantly better salary, yet the consultancy seemed surprised when I told them. Suddenly the salary bands became a lot more flexible. I shouldn't need to have another job offer to get offered pay rise in line with inflation.

snarfy 8y ago

Pay them more. Isn't this why most junior devs leave? Because they are getting crap junior dev salaries? Once you've trained them they are no longer junior devs. The market certainly doesn't think so.

ownagefool 8y ago
Pay or being capped as the junior in other peoples eyes. In my first dev job, which was a fantastic job, some gatekeepers wouldn't give up access or tasks that I was better suited for. I was always going to be a bit younger, always the junior guy on the team, despite the fact I had relevant education and, in my opinion, was probably better at the job. Eventually I left and they were upset, but I didn't like being held back. Not everyone is like that though. Nowadays I build and run teams. I don't do any real technical work unless I need to show a junior a working example on how to do it. I'd rather watch them learn and grow.

ErrantX 8y ago

Graded salary based on a mix of tenure and experience, with clear performance goals tied to moving those salary grades up sooner. This works very well for our grad programme. Also; most people leave managers not companies. So if pay is right, and the people are otherwise a good fit, it might be company culture that pushes them out.

blauditore 8y ago

Frankly, I did the same. For me the reasons were: - Personal growth: Devs in that company were nice, but not stellar (I was the most "senior" one after a couple years), so I couldn't learn much from my peers. - Nature of the business: I moved from customer service to product development, which is a personal preference. - Money: The new place paid about 40% more.

arvinsim 8y ago

> if there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years, I think companies would be more open to building junior devs. There are already many companies that lock you in contract in exchange for comprehensive training.

C1sc0cat 8y ago
Which is mostly illegal in the developed world - its illegal in India but employers still try and enforce bonds. You could go back to the real apprentice (no modern apprentice shelf stacking mc jobs) route but in that case the apprentice signs for x years and you cant make them redundant - and you also not guaranteed a job after it finishes

qwertay 8y ago

I was lucky enough to get my first job when I knew very little and learned so much on the job and I am very thankful to the company for giving me that opportunity. I worked there for almost 3 years but for the last year I was basically doing an act of charity to the company (Fair because they did the same for me but there is only so long that I can work for almost free). They couldn't afford to pay me a livable amount and I was still working on super basic junior problems. If they had an option to move up and work on interesting problems than I would have stayed. I suspect many others are the same. The only people hiring juniors are the ones who can't afford to pay mid level devs and when the juniors become mid level what are they to do but leave.

Bombthecat 8y ago

Can't you make a binding / contract? My company did that with me. Basically forbidding me to quit for 12 months. Ways you can do it in germany: hire. After 2 or 3 months to see if he is a good fit. Give him a bonus to stay. The contract allows you for up to two years without issues, maybe three. If he quits earlier. He must pay back the bonus back (Valles Heilung des bonus in german, healing 9f bonus) after a few months he won't have a chance to get something better. You also can increase the salary in a bonus. Which he eeds to payback if he wants to leave early. Is that not possible in America?

Merad 8y ago
Roughly 2/3s of the states in the US have “right to work” laws, which basically means that either employer or employee can terminate the job at any time for basically any reason.
- wikibob 8y ago
  You are thinking of "At will employment". Right to work means you can't be forced to join a union.
- ascar 8y ago
  That's not what he is talking about. You can also always quit your job in Germany. He is talking about payments that are conditional upon you staying at the company for a certain amount of time. Relocation bonuses and stock option vesting are a very common type. If the bonus is high enough, it makes it very unattractive to quit. He is exaggerating though.
ManlyBread 8y ago
Why would anyone want to sign this kind of a contract when most companies don't play these games? Even as a junior I wouldn't see this as an opportunity, I would wonder what is wrong with the company.
- ascar 8y ago
  The company offers you 10k bonus with the condition that you stay at least one more year. Otherwise you have to pay it back. If you intend to stay anyway or are not so keen on leaving, why should you say no? It's similar to stock option vesting and that is very common.

pier25 8y ago

Rise their pay when they become competent

rajacombinator 8y ago

Increase their salaries to fair market rates as they improve. Stop being a cheap bastard.

Mikeb85 8y ago

> Does anyone have ideas about how to make this work? Pay more. If they can make more money by switching jobs, you're not paying enough. They paid for their training by working for a lesser salary for 1-2 years, and it's not irrational for them to then want a competitive salary.

AchieveLife 8y ago

Culture and individualized incentives. Build a culture that aligns with the values of people hired and performers. Most people are motivated by positive feedback incentives. Others are motivated by monetary incentives. This guides career growth. Even if they leave, they will be back because most companies lack a unified culture with clear values.

smoe 8y ago

Here's how apprenticeships work in Switzerland: Before leaving school you try to find a company that is willing to take you on as an apprentice for a four year contract. Time is roughly split 50/50 at work in the company and specialized schools. The companies will cover the cost for the school, and pay a small amount to the trainee (~550$ first year to ~1400$ in the fourth year) On average companies lose money in the first 2 years, but make it up in the last two for an overall win. Especially for programming apprenticeships, this can be quite lucrative for the companies. So even if they leave immediately after the four years, it is not really bad for the company.

ascar 8y ago
Same in Germany, but programming apprentice and computer science major is a completely different thing, afaik also in Switzerland. No one coming from 3-5 years of unpaid (and depending on country expensive) university is up for this kind of payment and training. Though the majority of devs would be better of with a programming apprenticeship instead of an university degree in the first place. Only a fraction of devs work on these hard technical problems or complicated architectures that are actually engineering and not just programming.

sharemywin 8y ago

Pay them enough to stay?