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Since only relative income count, you have to expand your comment by saying that these countries - Do not respect Bankers and CEOs - Do not respect academics

by zwaps 8y ago

Since only relative income count, you have to expand your comment by saying that these countries - Do not respect Bankers and CEOs - Do not respect academics - Do not respect managers - Respect teachers too much - Respect waiters and delivery drivers too much etc. It's all relative. It's all trade-offs. In the US, you can get actual rich by working a normal dev job. On the other hand, many of my US high school teachers literally had to work at Wal-mart on the side. Unthinkable elsewhere. Result: Lots of innovation, but only by importing top tier talent from Asia and Europe, since high school education sucks maaajor balls compared to those countries. So yeah, all trade-offs.

thwy12321 8y ago
Not trying to start an argument about country wide wage compensation. But relative to other 'competitive' professional careers, such as doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc, Europe vastly underpays programmers, but also shows them little respect in the workplace. It's not just about the money, the social status of a software engineer in Europe is very low. This is making it difficult for Europe to compete on an international basis to create powerful tech companies. There are other reasons, such as fragmented markets, multiple languages, and the conservatism of the VC industry.
- friedsdeirf 8y ago
  My physician and lawyer friends in Berlin have salaries in the same ballpark as my programmer friends.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  In some European countries at least. Poland is next door from Germany, and we have more "american" distribution of wages - programmers are high-earners, teachers are low-earners. From what I hear, Germany seems relatively unique in having its programmers a part of the lower class.
adventured 8y ago
> On the other hand, many of my US high school teachers literally had to work at Wal-mart on the side. Unthinkable elsewhere. US teachers are among the best paid teachers on earth. What US teachers are arguing about, is they believe they should be paid something closer to good nurse wages or engineers (ie closer to $80k to $100k, rather than $60k or $70k). Some facts: Entry level US high school teachers earn 1/3 more than in Japan or Ireland. They earn more than in Canada. They earn around 40% more than in New Zealand. They earn 80-100% more than in Israel. They earn slightly more than in the Netherlands and Austria, and 20% more than in South Korea (which pays its teachers very well vs their national income). Entry level elementary school teachers in the US earn about 1/3 more than in South Korea, about 20% more than in Austria, 10-15% more than in Canada, 30-40% more than in Ireland and Japan, and drastically more than in countries like New Zealand or Italy. At both high school and elementary levels, for both entry level and 10 years of experience, the US outranks Canada, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Austria, New Zealand. It's very comparable to what you see in the Netherlands and Australia for those. Across each field of education, the US comes in in the top seven or eight for teacher pay, typically closer to the top 5. The one place it lags abnormally is the top end pay scale for teaching, where salaries don't match what you'd expect based on the mid-tier and entry level teacher salaries the US offers. The US only consistently trails a few countries like Germany and Switzerland, when it comes to teacher pay. Those two pay particularly well for teaching (Switzerland more or less matches what you'd expect given their very high national incomes; and Germany pays an unusually outsized salary for teachers based on their national income level).

by zwaps 8y ago

thwy12321 8y ago

Not trying to start an argument about country wide wage compensation. But relative to other 'competitive' professional careers, such as doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc, Europe vastly underpays programmers, but also shows them little respect in the workplace. It's not just about the money, the social status of a software engineer in Europe is very low. This is making it difficult for Europe to compete on an international basis to create powerful tech companies. There are other reasons, such as fragmented markets, multiple languages, and the conservatism of the VC industry.

friedsdeirf 8y ago
My physician and lawyer friends in Berlin have salaries in the same ballpark as my programmer friends.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
In some European countries at least. Poland is next door from Germany, and we have more "american" distribution of wages - programmers are high-earners, teachers are low-earners. From what I hear, Germany seems relatively unique in having its programmers a part of the lower class.

adventured 8y ago

> On the other hand, many of my US high school teachers literally had to work at Wal-mart on the side. Unthinkable elsewhere. US teachers are among the best paid teachers on earth. What US teachers are arguing about, is they believe they should be paid something closer to good nurse wages or engineers (ie closer to $80k to $100k, rather than $60k or $70k). Some facts: Entry level US high school teachers earn 1/3 more than in Japan or Ireland. They earn more than in Canada. They earn around 40% more than in New Zealand. They earn 80-100% more than in Israel. They earn slightly more than in the Netherlands and Austria, and 20% more than in South Korea (which pays its teachers very well vs their national income). Entry level elementary school teachers in the US earn about 1/3 more than in South Korea, about 20% more than in Austria, 10-15% more than in Canada, 30-40% more than in Ireland and Japan, and drastically more than in countries like New Zealand or Italy. At both high school and elementary levels, for both entry level and 10 years of experience, the US outranks Canada, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Austria, New Zealand. It's very comparable to what you see in the Netherlands and Australia for those. Across each field of education, the US comes in in the top seven or eight for teacher pay, typically closer to the top 5. The one place it lags abnormally is the top end pay scale for teaching, where salaries don't match what you'd expect based on the mid-tier and entry level teacher salaries the US offers. The US only consistently trails a few countries like Germany and Switzerland, when it comes to teacher pay. Those two pay particularly well for teaching (Switzerland more or less matches what you'd expect given their very high national incomes; and Germany pays an unusually outsized salary for teachers based on their national income level).