5 ms·

The people in these countries dont respect programmers, they pay them peanuts. How are they going to innovate?

zwaps 8y ago
Since only relative income count, you have to expand your comment by saying that these countries - Do not respect Bankers and CEOs - Do not respect academics - Do not respect managers - Respect teachers too much - Respect waiters and delivery drivers too much etc. It's all relative. It's all trade-offs. In the US, you can get actual rich by working a normal dev job. On the other hand, many of my US high school teachers literally had to work at Wal-mart on the side. Unthinkable elsewhere. Result: Lots of innovation, but only by importing top tier talent from Asia and Europe, since high school education sucks maaajor balls compared to those countries. So yeah, all trade-offs.
- thwy12321 8y ago
  Not trying to start an argument about country wide wage compensation. But relative to other 'competitive' professional careers, such as doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc, Europe vastly underpays programmers, but also shows them little respect in the workplace. It's not just about the money, the social status of a software engineer in Europe is very low. This is making it difficult for Europe to compete on an international basis to create powerful tech companies. There are other reasons, such as fragmented markets, multiple languages, and the conservatism of the VC industry.
  - friedsdeirf 8y ago
    My physician and lawyer friends in Berlin have salaries in the same ballpark as my programmer friends.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    In some European countries at least. Poland is next door from Germany, and we have more "american" distribution of wages - programmers are high-earners, teachers are low-earners. From what I hear, Germany seems relatively unique in having its programmers a part of the lower class.
- adventured 8y ago
  > On the other hand, many of my US high school teachers literally had to work at Wal-mart on the side. Unthinkable elsewhere. US teachers are among the best paid teachers on earth. What US teachers are arguing about, is they believe they should be paid something closer to good nurse wages or engineers (ie closer to $80k to $100k, rather than $60k or $70k). Some facts: Entry level US high school teachers earn 1/3 more than in Japan or Ireland. They earn more than in Canada. They earn around 40% more than in New Zealand. They earn 80-100% more than in Israel. They earn slightly more than in the Netherlands and Austria, and 20% more than in South Korea (which pays its teachers very well vs their national income). Entry level elementary school teachers in the US earn about 1/3 more than in South Korea, about 20% more than in Austria, 10-15% more than in Canada, 30-40% more than in Ireland and Japan, and drastically more than in countries like New Zealand or Italy. At both high school and elementary levels, for both entry level and 10 years of experience, the US outranks Canada, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Austria, New Zealand. It's very comparable to what you see in the Netherlands and Australia for those. Across each field of education, the US comes in in the top seven or eight for teacher pay, typically closer to the top 5. The one place it lags abnormally is the top end pay scale for teaching, where salaries don't match what you'd expect based on the mid-tier and entry level teacher salaries the US offers. The US only consistently trails a few countries like Germany and Switzerland, when it comes to teacher pay. Those two pay particularly well for teaching (Switzerland more or less matches what you'd expect given their very high national incomes; and Germany pays an unusually outsized salary for teachers based on their national income level).
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
Having worked as a programmer for 6 years in an EU country, the salaries are pretty reasonable, in the top tier of office workers, below exec level. Maybe it's the US programmers, particularly the ones in Sillicon Valley that are being over - paid? The way I understand it, you can only expect six-figure salaries for working in one of the top companies in SV, and that only if you have graduated from one of the top universities in the area. Also, there are six-figure salaries in the EU for programmers. You just have to know a bit of COBOL and not be afraid of biig scaary mainframes :0
- thwy12321 8y ago
  People fresh out of school are making six figures, its common. Software produces massive value, we arent overpaid, we are underpaid.
- gnulinux 8y ago
  Sorry but this is such bullshit. Not only in the Bay Area, but in Seattle, Boston, NYC etc... 6 figures is definitely NOT expected only from FAANGs. Any startup paying less than 90/100k to juniors, 150/200k to seniors won't find any engineers. FAANGs pay 200 to 300k. My graduating class last May had $105k average salary in the Bay Area and for me finding a 6 figure job wasn't even that hard. It's a bit ridiculous to argue the entire US tech industry is overpaid. Maybe EU still can't see how tech is changing everything and engineers are the most important part of the company. EU is very far behind and is not willing to catch up.
  - woodpanel 8y ago
    I'm sorry, but comparing just the gross pay between EU and US is superficial at best. (Taking Germany as an example, single, no kids) If you're offered say 100k in Germany - due to heavy tax-burden and social security costs - you will get less than 60k net. But what is hidden from your paycheck is that the company has to double your social security. So in reality you're getting paid 115k. If you make more than 250k, that means you get an extra slap on the wrist: "wealthy tax" means every € you make above 250k gets taxed at an excessive 45%. Which is why at that kind of pay employees seek out different kinds of compensation schemes. And because of these schemes those people often aren't count in the employment statistics and thus lower the average pay. On the plus side: From what I hear from European expats in the US, a lot of your high pay gets eaten by having to pay private enterprises for things that are provided by the government in Europe (getting a degree, good schools or kindergartens, healthcare, using the courts/legal system etc).

Since only relative income count, you have to expand your comment by saying that these countries - Do not respect Bankers and CEOs - Do not respect academics - Do not respect managers - Respect teachers too much - Respect waiters and delivery drivers too much etc. It's all relative. It's all trade-offs. In the US, you can get actual rich by working a normal dev job. On the other hand, many of my US high school teachers literally had to work at Wal-mart on the side. Unthinkable elsewhere. Result: Lots of innovation, but only by importing top tier talent from Asia and Europe, since high school education sucks maaajor balls compared to those countries. So yeah, all trade-offs.

thwy12321 8y ago
Not trying to start an argument about country wide wage compensation. But relative to other 'competitive' professional careers, such as doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc, Europe vastly underpays programmers, but also shows them little respect in the workplace. It's not just about the money, the social status of a software engineer in Europe is very low. This is making it difficult for Europe to compete on an international basis to create powerful tech companies. There are other reasons, such as fragmented markets, multiple languages, and the conservatism of the VC industry.
- friedsdeirf 8y ago
  My physician and lawyer friends in Berlin have salaries in the same ballpark as my programmer friends.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  In some European countries at least. Poland is next door from Germany, and we have more "american" distribution of wages - programmers are high-earners, teachers are low-earners. From what I hear, Germany seems relatively unique in having its programmers a part of the lower class.
adventured 8y ago
> On the other hand, many of my US high school teachers literally had to work at Wal-mart on the side. Unthinkable elsewhere. US teachers are among the best paid teachers on earth. What US teachers are arguing about, is they believe they should be paid something closer to good nurse wages or engineers (ie closer to $80k to $100k, rather than $60k or $70k). Some facts: Entry level US high school teachers earn 1/3 more than in Japan or Ireland. They earn more than in Canada. They earn around 40% more than in New Zealand. They earn 80-100% more than in Israel. They earn slightly more than in the Netherlands and Austria, and 20% more than in South Korea (which pays its teachers very well vs their national income). Entry level elementary school teachers in the US earn about 1/3 more than in South Korea, about 20% more than in Austria, 10-15% more than in Canada, 30-40% more than in Ireland and Japan, and drastically more than in countries like New Zealand or Italy. At both high school and elementary levels, for both entry level and 10 years of experience, the US outranks Canada, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Austria, New Zealand. It's very comparable to what you see in the Netherlands and Australia for those. Across each field of education, the US comes in in the top seven or eight for teacher pay, typically closer to the top 5. The one place it lags abnormally is the top end pay scale for teaching, where salaries don't match what you'd expect based on the mid-tier and entry level teacher salaries the US offers. The US only consistently trails a few countries like Germany and Switzerland, when it comes to teacher pay. Those two pay particularly well for teaching (Switzerland more or less matches what you'd expect given their very high national incomes; and Germany pays an unusually outsized salary for teachers based on their national income level).

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

Having worked as a programmer for 6 years in an EU country, the salaries are pretty reasonable, in the top tier of office workers, below exec level. Maybe it's the US programmers, particularly the ones in Sillicon Valley that are being over - paid? The way I understand it, you can only expect six-figure salaries for working in one of the top companies in SV, and that only if you have graduated from one of the top universities in the area. Also, there are six-figure salaries in the EU for programmers. You just have to know a bit of COBOL and not be afraid of biig scaary mainframes :0

thwy12321 8y ago
People fresh out of school are making six figures, its common. Software produces massive value, we arent overpaid, we are underpaid.
gnulinux 8y ago
Sorry but this is such bullshit. Not only in the Bay Area, but in Seattle, Boston, NYC etc... 6 figures is definitely NOT expected only from FAANGs. Any startup paying less than 90/100k to juniors, 150/200k to seniors won't find any engineers. FAANGs pay 200 to 300k. My graduating class last May had $105k average salary in the Bay Area and for me finding a 6 figure job wasn't even that hard. It's a bit ridiculous to argue the entire US tech industry is overpaid. Maybe EU still can't see how tech is changing everything and engineers are the most important part of the company. EU is very far behind and is not willing to catch up.
- woodpanel 8y ago
  I'm sorry, but comparing just the gross pay between EU and US is superficial at best. (Taking Germany as an example, single, no kids) If you're offered say 100k in Germany - due to heavy tax-burden and social security costs - you will get less than 60k net. But what is hidden from your paycheck is that the company has to double your social security. So in reality you're getting paid 115k. If you make more than 250k, that means you get an extra slap on the wrist: "wealthy tax" means every € you make above 250k gets taxed at an excessive 45%. Which is why at that kind of pay employees seek out different kinds of compensation schemes. And because of these schemes those people often aren't count in the employment statistics and thus lower the average pay. On the plus side: From what I hear from European expats in the US, a lot of your high pay gets eaten by having to pay private enterprises for things that are provided by the government in Europe (getting a degree, good schools or kindergartens, healthcare, using the courts/legal system etc).