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Corretto – No-cost, multiplatform, developer-preview distribution of OpenJDK
- apetresc 8y agoLegitimate question: what is keeping stock OpenJDK from being considered "production-ready" as it is?
- SanderMak 8y agoNothing, the big thing here is the long-term support. Multi-platform and production-ready are practically a given for any OpenJDK distro.
- starefossen 8y agoLack of LTS and commercial support most probably.
- Arnt 8y agoLack of long-time support commitment. A lot of java users want to hear someone say "we'll push updates for any and all CVEs for the next forty-two years, and that's a promise". They may not actually install those updates, but they want to hear someone say that they will exist.
- dragandj 8y agoBut isn't it exactly what Oracle offers? For the money, of course.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> But isn't it exactly what Oracle offers? For the money, of course. Right. What distinguishes Amazon's offering is that it has that kind of backing at zero cost. With Oracle, you can have zero cost, or “production-ready” backing, but not both together.
- coldtea 8y agoWell, we want that for free, of course.
- tyingq 8y agoOr for less than $25 per core, per month. Or clarity on what to do for a 1 VCPU license (1/2 a core). Or how to pay for licenses on ephemeral elastic servers.
- Arnt 8y agoOracle's offering involves paying Oracle money and getting regular phone calls from the Oracle sales department, which I have heard described in colourful ways.
- arethuza 8y agoOracle has/had "value based pricing" for larger contracts The discussion goes something like this: Customer: "How much does this cost?" Oracle sales: "How much money do you have?" Now this isn't quite as bad as it sounds (charge based on the value that the new system will bring) but the conversation was definitely a bit uncomfortable..... Oracle was not selected as the vendor. Edit: SAP weren't selected either for different reasons: SAP: "You are a manufacturing company and will use SAP like this" Customer: "We see why you might think that but we don't manufacture things" SAP: "You are a manufacturing company and will use SAP like this" Customer: Next... Obviously, there was more to both conversations - but these are reasonable summaries based upon my dubious memories.
- richardwhiuk 8y agoThat's how B2B sales work - the salesman works on how much the customer is willing to pay, then discounts the product down to the point the customer will pay, and the checks that isn't below cost of goods.
- fulafel 8y agoSo same as rhel openjdk (https://access.redhat.com/articles/1299013 https://access.redhat.com/articles/1299013) ?
- addisonj 8y agoSee this link for context: https://jaxenter.com/end-life-comes-early-jdk-8-140824.html https://jaxenter.com/end-life-comes-early-jdk-8-140824.html Tl;Dr: with Oracle changing the release versioning of Java, LTS releases are now essentially a paid product. If you run a large business with a lot of Java that is now a significant new burden to deal with.
- gojomo 8y agoAnd also perhaps a rising desire at Amazon to take Oracle down a few notches, as also seen in the recent “uh huh, keep talking Larry” announcements? EG: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/12/stay_classy_jassy_gets_sassy_with_larry/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/12/stay_classy_jassy_g...
- Yeroc 8y agoAnd perhaps also a desire to maintain parity with Azure since they announced Java LTS support via Azul for their customers a couple months ago (https://azure.microsoft.com/en-ca/blog/microsoft-and-azul-systems-bring-free-java-lts-support-to-azure/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-ca/blog/microsoft-and-azul-sy...).
- kgoutham93 8y agoI don't qualify to answer this... But most enterprises want someone to hold accountable in case of any catastrophic failures.
- DannyB2 8y agoHolding Accountable means those PHBs should buy a commercially supported Open JDK. Just as you can buy commercially supported Linux even though Linux is open source. Production Ready is a different thing than commercially supported. Linux is "production ready" even if you get a distribution which is not commercially supported with a contract and agreements on fixing it at 3 AM when it blows up.
- kgoutham93 8y agoAgree, according to Oracle's new release cadence every major version is "production ready", just that every sixth release is considered for LTS.
- cntlzw 8y agoOpenJDK 9 and OpenJDK 10 missed several root certificates in its truststore.
- cakeface 8y agoYes! It took me a while to track this down. They weren't really even included until OpenJDK 10. 11 is better but still missing some certificates.
- pron 8y agoOpenJDK is the most "official" Java out there. Oracle develops OpenJDK, and as of JDK 11 all previously commercial features of Oracle JDK have been contributed to OpenJDK, so that now Oracle JDK and OpenJDK are essentially identical[1] [1]: https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-releases-for-java-11-and-later https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-rele...
- thom_nic 8y agoI have not used Java in many years now, but I'm curious if anyone has anecdotal experience using OpenJDK in production? Performance vs Oracle Java, bugs/ idiosyncrasies due to internal API differences, etc?
- bhauer 8y agoIn our spot tests, we have not seen any performance difference or idiosyncratic behavior. Today, their differences seem more about licensing and support, and less about technology.
- SanderMak 8y agoAs of JDK 11, there is feature parity between OpenJDK and Oracle JDK, which is the JDK that most people used until now. In JDK 8, the Oracle version had several closed source additional features (such as Java Flight Recorder and the Z garbage collector). Also, implementations of things like graphics rendering used to be different in Oracle JDK 8 and earlier. That's no longer the case. Oracle JDK and OpenJDK should be drop-in replacements for each other as of JDK 11.
- ausjke 8y agoAmazon's OpenJDK is 1.8.0 which is JDK8, so it still 'misses' those Oracle's closed features?
- nicktelford 8y agoCorrect. But the chances that you're using any of those features is extremely low. Most of the differences are commercial features you're not allowed to use without a commercial support contract with Oracle. The only other differences are so small you probably wouldn't notice.
- jillesvangurp 8y agoMost of those features are only relevant for UI stuff and even then you are unlikely to notice the difference since openjdk would include implementations of anything even remotely relevant. Unless you know you need this, you can safely assume you don't. Here's a good stackoverflow post on the topic (note this is about openjdk 7). Things have only improved since then. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11547458/what-is-the-difference-between-jvm-jdk-jre-openjdk https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11547458/what-is-the-dif... If you are doing any kind of server side deployment, openjdk has been a drop in replacement since the java 7 days. Essentially all linux distributions include it and you have to jump through hoops to get the oracle version. There are differences between different openjdk builds though. I've ran into issues with certificates a couple of times on Ubuntu. Also they had a strange notion of what is stable and what is not early in the life of java 8. Another issue is the licensing of the test suite. This makes it hard to test your builds. The words certified build, implies that the produced build passes the licensed test suite.
- ce4 8y agoThe repo is on Github: https://github.com/corretto https://github.com/corretto
- aranw 8y agoWow genuinely surprised that AWS is not using CodeCommit
- withhighprod 8y agoIt’s just product and amazon didn’t even dogfood internal with it. The internal tools I heard was the best years ago until google hired the original amazon tooling people and so google is the best now
- guitarbill 8y agoHave you used it? Maybe you'd be less surprised :D If you want open source contributions, AWS' Code* offerings are a terrible choice. For example, AFAIK you still can't display a build status page that people can view without being logged into the AWS console, like Travis CI or AppVeyor. I honestly don't know who they built those services for, but I'll take Travis CI or Jenkins over those services any day.
- rrix2 8y ago> I honestly don't know who they built those services for, but I'll take Travis CI or Jenkins over those services any day. People who aren't developing open source software and people who want integrated IAM, generally. Git repos having ARNs is pretty neat
- guitarbill 8y agoYou can use Jenkins for closed source. And if you've found a way to display HTML reports (unit tests, coverage, etc) using CodePipeline and IAM but without a hacky Lambda to proxy it from S3 with auth, I'd also love to know. But as is, I believe the offerings are inferior to open source tooling, and don't promote code quality.
- espeed 8y agoThe posted URL goes to the French version of the page. This is the primary URL: https://aws.amazon.com/corretto/ https://aws.amazon.com/corretto/
- lenova 8y ago> Amazon Corretto is a no-cost, multiplatform, production-ready distribution of the Open Java Development Kit I really, really wish AWS would start using practical/self-explanatory names for their products.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- finaliteration 8y agoI’m honestly surprised they didn’t go with “Simple Java Service”. /s Edit: Added sarcasm indicator
- sroussey 8y agoProbably because they don’t own the trademark on Java.
- Spivak 8y agoWithin reason, you are actually allowed to use someone else's trademark for something like this provided your own trademark is the more prominent. So something like "Amazon Distribution for Java" would be fine.
- ksec 8y agoOr something as Simple as Amazon JDK.
- coldtea 8y agoUnless JDK is trademarked to death by Oracle...
- coldtea 8y agoWell, for one it's not a service...
- fredley 8y ago
- mixedCase 8y agoIt's a bit sad that they don't even package it in Amazon Linux's repos. In my eyes that's just building trust on one end and demolishing it on the other.
- anonymousJim12 8y agoI don't really "get" software licensing but are they bound to GPL because OpenJDK is GPL? Does anyone make a more permissive JDK?
- cpburns2009 8y agoYes, but it's really GPLv2 with the classpath exception [1] which makes it similar to the LGPLv2. Amazon's OpenJDK still has to be GPL. However, software using the OpenJDK can be licensed however you want (because of the classpath exception) [2]. [1]: https://openjdk.java.net/legal/gplv2+ce.html https://openjdk.java.net/legal/gplv2+ce.html [2]: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/q/119436/69573 https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/q/119436/69573
- pavon 8y agoWell Harmony was a JDK released under a more permissive license (Apache) but it has been discontinued. Moreso, unless you want to deal with being sued by Oracle and proving in court that your use of the JDK APIs are fair use (like Google had to do for Android), you really want to use something that is derived from OpenJDK, and thus GPL. So a more permissive implementation isn't likely to ever exist due to the legal liabilities.
- aranw 8y agoSurely Amazon Corretto is just going to fracture the Java ecosystem?
- fnord123 8y agoIt's already split between Java8 laggards and Java11. Spark for example hasn't been able to upgrade to Java9 due to their use of some Unsafe stuff. Hadoop just upgraded from 7 to 8 last year.
- DannyB2 8y agoYou can get Open JDK from any of the following places on them intarweb tubes, and they don't seem to fracture the ecosystem. Linux is available from many places, it may seem fractured, yet Linux seems to be taking over the world. Even Microsoft now "loves" Linux. https://aws.amazon.com/fr/corretto/ https://aws.amazon.com/fr/corretto/ https://github.com/corretto https://github.com/corretto https://adoptopenjdk.net/ https://adoptopenjdk.net/ https://github.com/AdoptOpenJDK https://github.com/AdoptOpenJDK https://github.com/ojdkbuild/ojdkbuild https://github.com/ojdkbuild/ojdkbuild http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ http://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/ https://jdk.java.net/11/ https://jdk.java.net/11/ https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/download/ https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/download/ https://github.com/SAP/SapMachine https://github.com/SAP/SapMachine https://bell-sw.com/java.html https://bell-sw.com/java.html
- pron 8y agoHopefully, OpenJDK would be less fractured than Linux. One thing to note, though, is that you can only call your JDK "OpenJDK" if it's a build of the OpenJDK project, with no substantial additions or removal of code[1]. Most free JDKs are, indeed, OpenJDK, with the exception of the JDK based on IBM's OpenJ9 JVM, even though it uses parts of the OpenJDK codebase. [1]: http://openjdk.java.net/legal/openjdk-trademark-notice.html http://openjdk.java.net/legal/openjdk-trademark-notice.html
- burtonator 8y agoWe use OpenJDK 8 at Datastreamer as part of our social media and blog/news crawler. It's pretty solid for production use. We're REALLY production as we've been in business for a decade and burn a ton of CPU indexing web content. Think petabytes... :) The only time we use the Oracle JDK is to run their profiler which is pretty darn nice. It's runtime and sampling so you can get a nice sample in a production app by just restarting it... I've never had a problem with an incorrect sample. What I REALLY want though is continuous profiling where we have profiling data uploaded to the cloud and alerts when we have an app regression automatically and I want to be told WHERE the regression is. ...
- sadiq 8y agoWe do exactly this! Our startup Opsian (https://www.opsian.com https://www.opsian.com) is a very low overhead continuous profiling service for the JVM. Our JVM agent sends profiling data from your instances to our cloud environment where it's indexed, aggregated and made available for hotspots/tree/flamegraph reports. We even have a dedicated report telling you where regressions happen between releases. (We're actually out at Devoxx 2018 right now doing a talk on why everyone should be doing continuous profiling)
- bitcharmer 8y agoThis looks interesting, however I can't agree that everyone should be doing continuous profiling. I wish I could always run a profiler continuously on production, but there are some areas where the overhead is just unacceptable (eg. low latency applications for high frequency trading).
- pron 8y agoAs of JDK 11, all commercial Oracle JDK features, including low-overhead profiler (Java Flight Recorder), are part of OpenJDK.[1] [1]: https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-releases-for-java-11-and-later https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-rele...
- burtonator 8y ago
- znep 8y agoThe list of specific patches applied is here: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto/latest/corretto-8-ug/patches.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto/latest/corretto-8-ug/pa... Looks to be mostly or maybe entirely backports. Good to see another option out there, it will be interesting to see how many of these get folded back into openjdk8 as it transfers maintainership.
- zandl 8y agoAmazon has good developers, but the JVM is quite complex and the pool of people who can work on it is pretty rare, I wonder how well they’ll be able to maintain it on their own.
- guitarbill 8y agoI imagine they use it heavily internally, and already have people working on it, so it was just a matter of making it externally available.
- znep 8y agoThey don't have to fully maintain it on their own. Packaging their own openjdk distribution gives them control over timely targeted bug and security fixes even if they don't have "JVM experts" working on it. I'm not saying they don't have such folks working on it since, well, James Gosling does work there after all along with many other talented folks, but the move makes sense regardless. At this point it appears to largely be a vote of support for openjdk as the project evolves. From their announcement: Amazon has already made several contributions to OpenJDK 8 and we look forward to working closely with the OpenJDK community on future enhancements to OpenJDK 8 and 11. We downstream fixes made in OpenJDK, add enhancements based on our own experience and needs, and then produce Corretto builds. In case any upstreaming efforts for such patches is not successful, delayed, or not appropriate for OpenJDK project, we will provide them to our customers for as long as they add value. If an issue is solved a different way in OpenJDK, we will move to that solution as soon as it is safe to do so.
- ForHackernews 8y agoAmazon has loads of money. Presumably if they care about this, they'll pay whatever's necessary to hire the developers they need.
- solarkraft 8y agoAt which point will they add their proprietary extensions? Am I the only one fearing this? I wouldn't want to depend on a business like Amazon.
- fs111 8y agoOracle always has proprietary parts in the JDK and that was no problem for people.
- xoa 8y ago>At which point will they add their proprietary extensions? Am I the only one fearing this? What? OpenJDK is GPL with a class path exception, so software that runs on it can be licensed however but additions/changes to OpenJDK cannot be kept proprietary. Can you please elaborate what you're afraid of there? It's not as if Amazon is the copyright holder and can thus even offer a dual license.
- Flenser 8y agoThis is about Amazon removing a revenue stream from Oracle. Amazon also announced a few days ago that they were removing Oracle products from AWS. Expect an article by Ben Thompson on stratechery.com in the next week.
- ProAm 8y agoTo be fair I trust Amazon just about as much as I trust Oracle.
- p0rkbelly 8y agoYou must not have been a big Oracle customer =)
- scarface74 8y agoA long time ago I was looking into the cost of Oracle for a company and trying to compare it to Sql Server. For SQL Server, you just go to the page and the price is right there. For Oracle, you have to talk to a salesmen. That turned me off from Oracle. With AWS, I know exactly how much a resource will cost and there are a myriad of ways you can get detailed billing.
- MrMorden 8y agoAmazon is moving their own systems off Oracle; I don't see anything in those stories about Amazon ending AWS customers' Oracle deployments.
- Flenser 8y agoOh, I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction. Edit: They are encouraging their customs to migrate though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18451204 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18451204 "Best practices for migrating an Oracle database to Amazon PostgreSQL"
- vbezhenar 8y agoI wonder if it works well on Windows XP 32-bit.
- matrix 8y agoThis is good news for Groovy developers since the Groovy project seems to have run into significant roadblocks with migrating to Java 9+. I'd recommend most other developers on the JVM rip that bandaid off now and get onto Java 11 though, because migrating is not going to get any cheaper or easier.
- vorg 8y agoThe roadblocks for Apache Groovy migrating to version 3 are imposed by Groovy's backers themselves. They want to keep it as is for as long as possible to keep Gradle users hooked. If a non-compatible Groovy 3.0 comes out, then Gradle users would more likely upgrade from Groovy 2.x to Kotlin instead of to Groovy 3.0 for their build scripting language. The ASF Groovy project managers want to keep their consulting-and-conferences gravy train running for as long as they can.
- stevoski 8y agoDoes anyone know if this Amazon OpenJDK includes a Windows 32-bit version? I can't find any mention of this in the docs.
- teapowered 8y agoThey don't - Your best bet is probably Azul https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/zulu-windows/ https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu/zulu-windows/
- karianna 8y agoOr AdoptOpenjDK https://www.adoptopenjdk.net https://www.adoptopenjdk.net
- linuxftw 8y ago"This initial release is a developer preview release for testing and validation purposes." Well... that's not really production-ready then, is it? I assume they intend to make it 'production-ready' at some point in the future, but those two statements are directly at odds.
- adamc 8y agoI think the idea is that it will be.
- nikanj 8y agoQuite a number of software houses use pre-alpha-preview betas in production. I’m not sure what motivates them, my theory is that upgrading everything bi-weekly is great busywork for a startup with few users and little traction.
- thruhiker 8y agoThat theory is not only derisive but incorrect. There is always plenty of non-busy work to be done at a startup, even one with few users or traction.
- adreamingsoul 8y agoAWS customers are mostly developers and the preview release allows AWS to obtain feedback, and validation from those developers.
- dang 8y agoOk, we'll s/production-ready/developer-preview/ the above.
- meathouse 8y agocan i get an eli5 on why we care about this? why not contribute to openjdk? why do we need another flavor?
- tomku 8y agoIt is openjdk. Amazon intends to package it nicely and support their releases with backports for security fixes.
- wjoe 8y agoAs of the latest version of Java, OpenJDK is equivalent to Oracle JDK, and they'll release new versions every 6 month. However, there won't be any security updates or bug fixes to OpenJDK versions from Oracle after 6 months. There's a few groups that plan on maintaining patches beyond that period, but most options involve paying someone (including Oracle). It's mostly just about enterprise distribution, rather than any differences in the JDK. Updating major versions every 6 months is risky, not having security updates is more risky, and no one likes paying money for something that they've been getting for free. So far this seems like the simplest and cheapest way of getting long term security/bugfix updates for the JDK, especially if you're already running Amazon Linux. We've been evaluating the options in my team recently and hadn't come to a decision beyond "update to Java 11 and see how it goes after that". This pretty much solves our problems. I would have preferred to see Amazon partnering with Red Hat or other open source groups on maintaining one well supported OpenJDK, but at least as it's all open source, patches should make their way to all versions.
- meathouse 8y agothank you. makes more sense now. much appreciated.
- therealmarv 8y agoDoes anybody know how good internal OpenJDK in Ubuntu will be supported by Canonical? Somehow I could not find any information about real support in the future. I heard of commitments from and for RedHat though. I'm sure Corretto will be at some time also available for Ubuntu.
- chungy 8y agoIt's likely just the work that Debian does. OpenJDK upstream will always have their repository available, it's just that Oracle is paywalling binary builds after 6 months. Debian builds from source and is unaffected by the binary paywall.
- bit_logic 8y agoIf I want a free LTS supported OpenJDK build, how does this compare to AdoptOpenJDK? Which one is likely to "win" as the de facto standard JDK build used by most of the community?
- Yeroc 8y agoAdoptOpenJDK is at a bit of a disadvantage because it doesn't currently have permission and/or access to the TCK for Java SE so is unable to certify their builds (https://adoptopenjdk.net/support.html#jck https://adoptopenjdk.net/support.html#jck). This won't matter for many people but some enterprises will no doubt require it.
- karianna 8y agoAdoptOpenJDK is the much larger project with broad community backing (We even have Amazon contribute) from IBM, Red Hat, Azul, Ocado, Microsoft etc. It's got a fully open and auditable build and test pipeline and supports a massive number of platforms (arm32/64, AIX, s390, Mac, Windows, Linux x86, PPC etc) and versions (8, 9, 10, 11, amber, 12 beta et al). We've already had over 2M downloads and are definitely in production in a lot of places. We'll be working with Amazon to make sure there's some consistency between the two, no point in fragmenting. Corretto is an obvious choice if you're an AWS user, for everything else Adopt is also a decent choice.
- ryanmarsh 8y agoGiven that Corretto is in production at Amazon today could this by default become the most popular (by production instances) JVM? Let's say Corretto becomes the default in BeanStalk, Lambda, and maybe some popular AMI's. Would that be enough? Let's say sometime next year some performance benchmarks come out and Corretto is in fact faster than Oracle's JVM. Would people be quick to switch? Would enough people switch? I feel like the Java ecosystem has been at the verge of a "phase shift" for a long time. There's a lot of pent up demand for features and Oracle and the governance process just aren't delivering. So now Amazon steps in and, just think about it, what are the odds this JVM ends up faster, better, and gasp with some new features people want.
- chrisseaton 8y ago> Let's say sometime next year some performance benchmarks come out and Corretto is in fact faster than Oracle's JVM. What tricks do you think they've got up their sleeve to make it faster?
- wjoe 8y agoI suspect it already is in use in Lambda, an AWS rep mentioned something about them using a custom JVM internally for Lambdas when they gave a talk at our company recently, so this is probably that. As for the default on AMIs, it probably will go that way when OpenJDK 8 support ends next year. They'll have the option of distributing RedHat's OpenJDK build with their patches, or packaging their own. It'll probably be similar to the `mysql` package actually providing MariaDB, and no one will really notice. I am intrigued if there will be noticable performance improvements. They do mention performance enhancements on the page, but I believe this is more about dealing with Oracle's licensing changes and maintaining support for the LTS releases. But there's plenty of incentive for them to make it better performing than alternatives too. I expect my company will switch to this because we're already on Amazon Linux 2, and have been struggling to make a decision on how to update the JDK with future releases. But if there are performance improvements, that might push some more AWS users to switch to Amazon Linux over Ubuntu and other distros in EC2.
- nomercy400 8y agoYou mean they announced a five-year supported LTS after Oracle once again told the world they want money for their LTS version? Ouch. It was kind of nice to have Gosling announce it though.